User talk:Sawyer12477

As one person who has worked on the wiki Romney (sheep) article I'm asking others who also have to contact either me or cattlegirl so we can set up a discussion on how to make some improvements in the article by consensus rather than by the more customary free-lance editing. In the last year someone (either a wiki editor or a wiki robot if there is such a thing or another writer) has "entered citation" needed in a lot of places where at one point it did not say that. We need to give references for some of those and perhaps delete a couple that would be hard to find a reference for. I'm not claiming wiki editorial expertise nor privileged status, just saying that we'll have a more stable article an done more likely to meet the highest standards of wiki if we talk among ourselves during or before the editing process. If no one wants to have such a forum I'll probably me moved eventually to make some edits on my own that someone else may then override. That's how wiki can work, but not how it ought to. Hope to hear from others interested in Romney sheep or Kent or livestock of whatever other sectors have brought different people to this article. Happy 2008, --Sawyer12477 (talk) 22:52, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

 Cat tleG irl  '' talk 01:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Feb 11, 2008 in USA Cattle girl has left a message on the Romney Sheep discussion page.  That's probably the best place for anyone else who wants to join in revising the Romney Sheep page. Cheers

--Sawyer12477 (talk) 19:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Re:Romney Sheep
Hello, thank you for replying to my post. As you see, I'm a novice with wikipedia. It looks as if you are right now the working editor of the Romney Sheep article. Probably I can figure out how to edit the page, but would vastly prefer to talk with you first or with others you work with.

Please read the long posting I did last week, in which I introduced myself. That one breaks off near the end, where I was saying that even though Romneys now comprise less than half of the NZ sheep population, that is ten times more than any other pure breed and should not be called a "significant" dropoff in interest. As I'm sure you know, NZ sheep growers are constantly innovating with crossbreeding and this habit (not confined to NZ) does seem to discount the value of pure breeds in a national industry. Only seems to. In fact the Coopworth was originally a Romney cross until it became a recognized breed. Let me know anything in that posting you don't agree with. If everything is OK with you, let me know that and I'll try to edit the piece or, if you wish, you can incorporate my suggestions in your rewrite.

How did I get to this? Sat down to write a 250 word history of the breed for an event to be help next year and thought I'd see what ever-helpful wikipedia had to say. Nice to talk with you thus. Now, I hope I can sign out properly. My email address, if I don't, is sqs1@columbia.edu Sawyer12477--Sawyer12477 12:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the late-ish reply.
 * I've read through what you've written on the Romney talk page and I must say I agree with most of it. One of the problems with the article is it's biased- I know some of the writers (aren't active on Wikipedia anymore) who admittedly wrote it focused on Australia, and now it's probably focused too much on the UK.
 * I'll reply to your message on the Romney talk page there.
 * You obviously (referring to comment on talk page again) know a fair bit about Romneys- please edit the page as you see fit. I too will be expanding it and correcting it- it needs it. If you want to talk about changes, feel free to contact me here or on the romney talk page.
 * Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 08:16, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, I hope I remember how to sign this properly. I not, my e-mail address is sqs1@columbi.edu.  Thank you for addressing my comments and thank you for agreeing with most of them.  Let's work together to upgrade the article to GA status, whatever, that is.  I'll start by getting a source about the role of Romneys in the high-end carpeting industry.
 * I don't think it's worth looking for a source that backs up the claim of greater resistance to foot rot. This has become axiomatic in  Romney promotional literature, but is not likely to have an objective basis. It could easily be dropped and the space given to more secure claims to fame such as importance in the high-% wool floor covering industry and predominance as the  foundation pure breed in NZ for the last 150 years.
 * To add international perspectives,
 * I have a nice picture of Romney ram lambs (borregos) in Uruguay.
 * The breed standard (applicable in some countries mostly to showing, in others applied also to registration)is something we could go lightly on. The emphasis on nose color and hoof color is mostly aesthetic, and de gustibus non est diputandum.
 * I'll try to send you something on the early history of the breed, or rather the early recognition of the breed, which is one of the more senior English breeds but not the most senior.
 * Still don't feel ready to make any edits myself. Let's keep talking a while longer. Best,  --Sawyer12477 23:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)sawyer12477


 * Hello again!
 * GA status- Good Article status, requirements found at WP:GA.
 * Since many readers of these articles aren't really involved in the sheep industry- as these articles are a lot more basic than many out there- I think if we can find a reliable source for the foot rot, it can be put in. It doesn't have to be long- just a sentence or two- but just a mention of it, as it would be something new to those who know nothing about Romneys. Thoughts?
 * What I've noticed about the article is that there's really nothing about the purpose of the Romney, just the appearance and characteristics, mainly. Adding info about the Romneys in the floor covering industry would be a great idea- but I really don't know much about that at all.
 * Please add the photo! The photo of the Romney ewes is from the farm where I'm based, and I was saying just today with a friend that we should replace it- it doesn't really show the Romney that well.
 * I think the section on Romney characteristics is needed, but as you said, the article should be focused a lot more on the uses of Romneys, history/origins, and doesn't need to lean as heavily on what they should look like.
 * As you said, I agree about the hoof and nose colour. It's not really important, but as the farm where I'm based focusses heavily on showing animals, a lot more emphasis is put on the colouring there. I think in the article we should really show all points of a romney, mentioning the ideal colouring, but as we both know, it's not of utmost importance, and more emphasis should be on the history of the breed, as you said.
 * The information would be welcome, if you could send it to me.
 * Do you feel there are more sections that could go into the article? I'll have to look at external websites, but I think we've covered a lot.
 * Just letting you know, I'm going to a cattle workshop on Wednesday, and will probably log on again Saturday night or Sunday. Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 10:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, I'll be pegging away, get something to you soon. I,m about to call some in NZ about Romney genetics, bit it's not for wiki.  I looked at some of the other sheep breed articles in Wiki and the Romney page is a lot further along than most already.  Will look up about GA status.  Checked your user page trying to reply to you and see you raise Romneys in Australia.  Good on yer! Sawyer 12477  Sawyer12477 19:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC) Sawyer 12477
 * Hello again! Just got back from a cattle workshop, so I'm trying to get back into the sheep frame of thought!
 * Yes, I work on a farm that raises Romneys over here. The lambing's been really good, the flock's looking really promising.
 * After reading that reply, I just had a look at some of the other sheep breed pages, and you're right! Heaps of really small articles, not much information at all... I'll be working on the Charolais and Angus articles next, but I'm determined to do the Romney page first!
 * If you could get that information to me that would be good. I'm going to be going through my computer for some documents I was given, but I don't think there's a lot, most of it's on cattle. Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 05:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Romney Info
Hello, cattle girl, I will try to send you a draft and a couple of pictures. What I've done is quite long,but I guess wiki does not really have limitations on space, right? I have also looked at the article on "wool" since we could save space on the Romney page if able to refer to the wool article for discussion of fiber diameter and  coefficient of variation. If you look at the wool article you will see I accidentally edited it with what I thought was a discussion. Here goes an attempt to send you text, no photos yet.

The Romney (sheep)

The Romney, once called the Romney Marsh or the Kent sheep, is a “long-wool” breed that emerged in England by 1800. Exported to other continents, the Romney is now the world’s second (to the Merino) most economically important sheep breed. This position comes from the breed’s past and continuing majority share of the New Zealand sheep-meat and wool export trades.

Origins

The breed developed in Kent and East Sussex in and around the small area of low-lying meadows collectively known since the Middle Ages as “Romney Marsh.” [Need to link from those two words to Wiki article on Romney Marsh]. For many centuries sheep were brought to this district from other parts of England for autumn finishing. Although chilly in winter and fever-ridden, “The Marsh” contained rich pastures of alluvial soil “inned” (protected by dikes) from the sea between 1150 and 1400. This made for good pre-market grazing. The sheep recognized by 1800 as “Romney Marsh” or “Kent” were descended from some of the seasonal incomers retained and admixed with blood from Northern Europe. “Romneys are said to be somewhat resistant to foot rot, liver flukes and other problems that often plague sheep in damp pastures.” Simmons P, Ekarius C  Storey’s Guide to Raising Sheep. North Adams MA, Storey Books, 2001 p. 68

Appearance To describe a sheep breed, pictures are useful but not always generalizable. “Breed standards” have been developed for most registered sheep breeds of the world, usually by the registering body itself. Some breed standards emphasize outward appearance; others give more weight to heritable characteristics. Some specify lower or upper limits of size. Most of the text of any breed standard describes an overall sound animal rather than breed-distinguishing features. That said, here is the standard of the oldest of the Romney breed societies, that of England (founded 1895) as it was set out in 1990.

The Official Description of the typical Romney sheep is as follows: Head wide, level between ears, with no horns nor dark hair on the poll. Eyes should be large, bright and prominent and the mouth sound. Face in ewes full, and in rams broad and masculine in appearance. Nose and hooves should be black. Neck well set in at the shoulders, strong and not too long. Shoulders well put in and level with the back. Chest wide and deep. Back straight and long, with a wide and deep loin. Rump wide, long and well-turned. Tail set almost even with the chine. Thighs well let down and developed. The face should be white, and the skin of a clean pink colour. Ribs should be well sprung. Legs well set, with good bone and sound feet. Sheep should stand well on their pasterns. The fleece should be of white colour, even texture and a good decided staple from top of head to end of tail and free from kemp. Source: Approved at the Annual General Meeting of Members of the Romney Sheep Breeders’ Society, Great Britain, published in the Centenary Handbook of the Romney Sheep Breeders’ Society (1995)

Today’s Romney sheep varies among and also within continents, especially as to body size. The breed can still be characterized in that respect as being in the larger half of the spectrum represented say by Cheviot (smaller end) to Lincoln (larger end). An English description of size (Centenary Handbook, p. 4) speaks of “big sheep” ewes to 85 kg, rams to 110 kg, while the American breed standard calls for ewes at breeding age to be “140 lbs or more” and rams “200 lbs or more.”  www.americanromney.org  The registering bodies for most sheep breeds continue to struggle with the question of what size is just right. This question has no transnational or even national answer. Relevant issues include economics, ecology, and the exigencies (in some countries) of the show ring.

As with body size, criteria for the ideal Romney fleece vary place to place, but breeders in all countries would agree that bold crimp (undulations along the fibre from butt to tip) and bold lock formation characterize the Romney fleece. A healthy mature ram not worked too hard can yield at shearing upwards of 10 kg per year, while flock averages in NZ for reproducing animals are typically above 5 kg. The increased fleece weight of a long-wooled sheep comes from the longer fiber length produced. A finer-wooled sheep (e.g. Merino, Rambouillet) actually has more wool follicles than the long-wooled sheep, but each supports a slower-growing, and therefore shorter, fiber. The “clean yield” [net weight after thorough washing] is typically high for Romneys, 75-80%; this is a higher yield than is got for most fine-wooled sheep.

The single most important dimension of wool, which above all else determines its best use, is average fiber diameter (AFD). High AFD indicates best use in carpeting and other rugged uses; lowest AFD wools are destined for fine suit fabrics and luxury wear. Average fiber diameter must be measured with instruments; the time-honored “Bradford system,” which uses the eyes and hands of experienced humans, has some correlation to measured AFD but can be biased. [is there a wiki entry on the Bradford system? We’d better put one in if there is not]. Again, countries differ in what they expect in a Romney fleece and in how this is expressed. America, for example, declares the Romney fleece should be [Bradford system] “44s to 50s.” Transformed arbitrarily into micrometers (microns) this corresponds to 29.30 to 36.19 microns, much “stronger” than average fiber diameter found in “fine” and“superfine” breeds like some Merinos. Breed standards notwithstanding, many Romneys considered outstanding in all respects by competent judges have AFDs above 36 microns.

In all breeds of wool sheep, uniformity of fiber diameter over body areas that grow good wool is almost as important as average fiber diameter. Too much variation in AFD makes yarns harder to spin well, especially in mills. The ratio of standard deviation to mean (average) fiber diameter is called the coefficient of variation. The lower this ratio, the better. The subject is important because no discussion of wool quality statistics is complete without mention of dispersion. The single most important end-use of Romney wool is in yarns for high-quality floor coverings, and mills that make carpet yarns have a special interest in strong wools with relatively low variability in AFD.

The Romney’s fleece is ideal for hand-spinning, and is often recommended to beginners. In the United States, where there is no commercial end-use for strong wools, the most desired outlet for Romney wool is to hand-spinners. Only a small fraction of the thousands of Romney fleeces shorn in the US each year, however, go to this use. Romney wool in NZ goes mostly into that country’s vast shipments of wool for the rug and carpet factories of the EU, the USA, Australia and NZ itself. New Zealand is the world’s largest producer and exporter of “crossbred” wool (a term for wool with average fiber diameter >35.4 microns). In 2002-2003 the country exported approximately 138,000 tonnes clean basis, about half of which was of AFD >35.4 microns, the Romney range. Source Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries New Zealand. In the same year, total wool exports returned nearly one billion $NZ, about 3% of total merchandise exports revenues for the country.

In North America and England, natural-colored Romneys (whose fleeces are not white, but black, gray, silver, brown, variegated) came to be valued rather than extirpated, for the interest they brought to hand-spinners and weavers who like the palette of natural colors. Traditionally, as everyone remembers, natural colored (formerly known “black”) sheep were detested because even a small amount of black fiber such as comes off a forgotten coin-sized spot on an otherwise white sheep can ruin hundreds of pounds of fiber and a grower’s reputation. Since 1973 natural-colored Romneys have been registered with the American Romney Breeders’ Association (founded 1911), which has developed a special breed standard for them.

Usefulness of Romneys

The first confirmed export of Romneys from England was a shipment of twenty from Stone, Kent that went on the Cornwall to NZ in 1853. With these and a further thirty ewes sent in 1856, Alfred Ludlum established New Zealand’s first Romney Marsh stud in 1860 in the Hutt Valley. In 1855 there had been 60,000 Merinos in NZ, but the Romney Marsh sheep thrived, supplanting the Merino over most of the country. The New Zealand Romney Marsh Association was formed in 1904. Alfred Matthews was the first president; the stud he founded, Waiorongamai, is still going. In 1965 three-quarters of the national flock was Romney source McKenzie Anna A Century of the NZ Romney New Zealand Farmer 2000: 7: 14-19

In the mid-1990s www.meatandwoolnz.com Romneys comprised 58% of the New Zealand sheep flock (estimated in 2000 at 45 million), with Coopworths (originally Border Leicester on Romney crosses) ) and Perendales (originally Cheviot on Romney crosses) making up another 16.6% of the national flock, in which Merinos stood at 7% and Corriedales at 5.5%. The sheer number of Romney ewes and lambs in New Zealand make the breed the major input to the country’s export lamb trade, as purebreds and first-generation crosses.  NZ, with its 47% share, is the world’s largest exporter of lamb www.maf.govt.nz/statistics  In 2004 NZ sheep-meat exports (mostly of lamb) brought in more than half of the country’s 4.5 billion $NZ meat export revenues.

The New Zealand export lamb trade started in 1882 with a shipment aboard the Dunedin of 4000 chilled carcasses to London’s Smithfield Market. To this day Feb 15, departure date, is celebrated as New Zealand Lamb Day.

For many years England was the primary source of Romneys for export to the world, although NZ was itself exporting by around 1906. Between 1900 and 1955 eighteen thousand rams and 9000 went from England to 43 countries. Source Centenary Handbook p. 20 Health requirements in recent decades have made New Zealand almost the only breeding ground for exported seed stock, with Brazil, Uruguay, the Falklands, the U.S. and England itself some of the recipients of rams and of semen for AI. END OF DRAFT

Can I send pictures this way too? Let me know. Can I send text as an attachment rather than putting it into body of email?

That seems to be going in. The references need checking and postioning.

Thanks,

--Sawyer12477 23:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC) sawyer12477
 * Wow, that's good. You wrote that, right?
 * If so, do you want to put it in the article, or me to? I can format it later if you like, but that reads well.
 * You can send me an email off wiki here if you want to with the picture, and some text, or you can continue this way. You can also send me links to pictures if they're on the internet? You can attach text if you send it off-wiki too.
 * So that's all good... more information in the wool article would be welcome, definitely. We could also summarise a bit in the Romney article, and just place links to the wool article, that would work.
 * I don't think there's an article on the bradford system, so we should add it, you're right. Or into the wool article, depending on how much information we can find.
 * I think that's about all I meant to say... it can all be put in, except some more explaining should be done, for not everyone would know what the poll, for example, is. There's a couple of things like that, a couple of things that can be merged into the wool article with some links. Other than that, as I said before, it's really good.
 * That's all I can think of for now...
 * Thanks-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 10:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Email
Just letting you know I've replied to your email.  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 06:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Signature hint
Thanks for your contributions. Here's a little hint: there's no need to sign contributions to articles. See Signatures for more information.

I've tidied up the Bradford system article a bit. Thanks for writing it. I grew up on an Australian wool farm and my Dad did some wool classing. I guess he used the Bradford system or something closely related. Cheers, CWC 18:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Re: Romney sheep
Hello, I seem to have lost touch with you about the Romney sheep article changes. You may be away, or not getting my e-mails because I sent them wrong. Maybe just too busy! Do update me please on whether you got a proposed revision of the article, which included three new photos. I sent you the revision, rather than putting something right onto the page, for three reasons: first, I regard you as the editor of that page and prefer not to change it without your agreement;  second, the text I sent needed marking-up to get internal and external links in the right format. I took a stab at that but did not get it all right, I know; third, I don't know at all how to put photos in.

I think I've learned enough now to be able to enter text, though not just right. Clueless on pictures.

By the way, the article will need a category tag of your choice. I only just learned about those. Perhaps category:sheep would suffice or maybe something more vertical.

If I don't hear from you at all in a few days I will try to post the revision as it now stands, but I hope to hear from you. Cheers, Sawyer12477 12:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)Sawyer12477


 * Hi, sorry about the late reply... my computer wasn't working for a few days, so very limited internet access.
 * I have my email open now, and I have in my inbox 2 emails from you, and none of them contain photos. Could your perhaps resend the version with the photos?
 * Please, feel free to update the page any way you see fit, I don't mind whether you contact me about it first or not. I'm fine with this sort of communication, but if you see anything that needs changing, please, change it!
 * I can put the photos in and do the links... but as I said before, I haven't recieved any other messages rather than the two in my inbox (no pictures) and the ones on this talk page.
 * I'll have to have a look about agriculture related categories- I hadn't thought of that. Looking forward to your email, I'm suer it will improve the article a lot. Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 12:51, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I just recieved your emails and replied. Would you like me to send you the tweaked text first, or begin putting your changes into the article once I wikify them?  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 08:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Romney article, wool staples
Hello, CattleGirl, please reformat for wiki and start putting it up. The internal link I had to the word "staple" in the British breed standard needs to to be taken out. I had placed a special use definition of staple with the meaning of "lock of wool," on the wiki page for "staple" and it was there for a couple of days but someone took it out. I remonstrated with him by opening a discussion page; don't know what has come of it. Thanks a lot, --Sawyer12477 13:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC) Sawyer 12477
 * I'm going away to an ag show this weekend, but I'll work on it when I can- it should be up soon.
 * I just had a look at the staple article- it was under Staple (textiles) but I moved it to Staple (wool), and the textiles link redirects to that. We should probably expand that article as well- it doesn't explain very well- and also incorporate alpacas, etc.
 * Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 11:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Re:Romney sheep
Hello from Sawyer 12477, How was the Ag show? I hope you can put up the revised Romney page sometime this week. Otherwise I can have a go at it; let me know. Thanks--Sawyer12477 22:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi,
 * The show was great, our romney's did really well! We're pretty happy with the results.
 * I only gained full access to the computer yesterday night after the show, but I'll be sure to work on it this week.
 * Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 22:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Romney article
You'll be pleased to know that I've begun wikifying and inserting your text for the romney article! I haven't finished yet, there's still quite a bit left to go, but that's ok- have a look at my changes and tell me what you think. I've reworded a few things, added internal links, and set up the references for Wikipedia. I might have removed/added a sentence or two as well. It's finally coming together! :)  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 11:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Done!
By George, you're moving right along. I'm so grateful. Will make no further comment until you finish. Thanks much --Sawyer12477 23:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * And... done. Romney (sheep). I'm still going to be re-writing it some, to make it a bit simpler to read for younger readers, or readers who don't know as much about sheep... but that's the article.  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 09:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Romney sheep
Hello Cattle Girl, thank you for putting up the rest of the article. I have made some changes in the version you posted, the main one of which was moving the text about the arrival of Romneys in NZ to an earlier point. Also I took out some lines that were redundant and most of the description of the breed left over from the version that stood when I began to correspond with you. I removed, for instance, the statement that Romneys usually lamb in "mid-spring, " because when they lamb depends very much on the intentions of the breeder. In Romney Marsh many people aim to lamb starting in early April, while in the US many people are getting half their lambs by the end of Feb.

Your idea of editing for younger or less experienced readers is very good.

Are we ready to change the category away from a stub? Seems to me we have at least a "good article" now, but perhaps you want to work with it some more before seeking an upgrade.

Thanks for all your work and help. We've come a long way I think.--Sawyer12477 03:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * All that sounds good- all it needs is perhaps a little rephrasing every now and then, and checking to see if it fits the good article guidelines. I'll have a look to see whether it meets the guidelines soon... I've removed the stub tag, you're right.
 * I think we might need to break the text up a bit more, and maybe omit some sheep jargon? I've linked as much as I could...
 * Do you have any ideas?
 * Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  '' talk 07:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Romney Sheep article
Hi Cattle Girl, how is your winter going? (Summer for us). The Romnmey sheep article seems to have weathered a month without taking much punishment from new editors than you and me. Thanks again for all your help on it. I may take a stab at some more wool-related articles at some point. Keep me posted on how your Romneys are doing. Best, Sawyer12477 15:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, Sawyer12477, sorry for replying so late!
 * Yeah, it's a very nice article! I'm a bit busy at the moment (preparing for the Aus Sheep And Wool Show, actually) but when I get a chance I'll be rewriting it a bit as I said before. Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  talk 09:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Romney sheep article
Hello, Cattle Girl

You probably remember working together on the Romney sheep page. Looking at it recently, I see someone (a human being? a wiki robot?) has asked for citations on certain statements, some of which I wrote and some of which others put in since. Someone has made an astute point in a commentary that in one place the article now says improvement has been entirely from within the breed and in another it says that improvements were made using Bakewell's Leicester. I'd like to e-talk with the people who have worked on the article since you and I did and hammer out these conflicts, place citations or remove unverifiable statements. Unfortunately, I can't remember how to open a discussion with all the people who have contributed since last April. Can you please remind me how to start one, and if possible, explain to me how to directly contact them via a talk page like yours. When I click on user names like "trigger12" I just get a message that there is no user page.

Hope your Romneys are flourishing. We are just beginning lambing.

Thanks a lot,--Sawyer12477 (talk) 00:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello again :) Nice to hear from you :)
 * Yeah, I just looked at the history of the page. They probably helped us quite a bit :).
 * Sure I can help you, and I'd love to keep working on the article as well.
 * To start a conversation, you just need to go to the history of the romney page, and have a look for the person who made a particular edit. You'll see their username, and then (talk) written next to it- which is their talk page.
 * Pages with a red link aren't created yet... but I just looked and I think trigger12 was created after you got there, so that should be ok now.
 * Our Romneys are great at the moment, we're just picking out our show team from last year's lambs. We also just bought a few Maremma puppies, so it's going pretty well.
 * Good luck with the lambing!
 * Cheers-  Cat tleG irl  talk 10:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)