User talk:Sbaio/Archive 2021

Conn Smythe Trophy on 2019–20 NHL season
Regarding your reversion of my edit on the 2019–20 NHL season to add information about the voting history of the Conn Smythe Trophy. Per the article, which was added as a reference to |my edit, there is an included chart which specifically lists the ballot totals and indicates who received the 2nd most points. Hence, that person, is the "runner up". While no runners up are listed on the trophy itself, it is notable information to have in the article.

If a source can be provided specifically stating that there is not a runner up, then please adjust the article appropriate. Otherwise, my edit stands and should remain in the article.

&mdash; MrDolomite &bull; Talk 17:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Source or no source, but the consensus is not to list any supposed runner-ups. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, then per your logic, please remove ALL "runners up" from the table on 2019–20 NHL season and on all other NHL season pages. Also, please provide a link to the consensus from WP:HOCKEY or another page to support these edits. &mdash; MrDolomite &bull; Talk 15:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I see that you have no idea about NHL awards so I will try to explain it to you. The Conn Smythe Trophy is a playoffs' award and it has no runner-ups. The NHL simply announce the winner after the last Stanley Cup Finals game is played (2019–20 Hedman). All other individual awards are for regular season (Frank J. Selke Trophy, Hart Memorial Trophy, etc.) and finalists are announced until the regular season's end. For example, the 2019–20 Hart Memorial Trophy finalists – Draisaitl (team's press release), MacKinnon (team's press release), Panarin (team's press release), NHL press release; and winner – Draisaitl (team's press release), NHL press release. But not all regular season awards have runner-ups (Mark Messier Leadership Award, Lester Patrick Trophy (the winner is announced when the next season starts)) and the NHL does not make any announcements about finalists for these awards (Mark Messier Leadership Award (NHL press release), Lester Patrick Trophy (NHL press release).
 * It is best to ask at WT:NHL when you have certain questions about things that could impact many pages. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Klay Thompson
I mistakenly said there was already a talk discussion on Klay being Catholic, but that was inaccurate. The user who removed the addition gave no explanation for it, and was primarily trying to remove one of the categories. There is a talk discussion about that, though. natemup (talk) 15:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Where is the supposed discussion? Because I cannot find it at Talk:Klay Thompson. In addition, you ought to read WP:BRD, which specifically states that you must not reinstate the content if your additions have been reverted (it has already been reverted five times so you are subject to WP:EW). – Sabbatino (talk) 15:17, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The discussion was about whether Klay is African American.


 * This was what the original reversions primarily concerned. And that user already tried to peg me for edit warring, and was told that he was not innocent in the situation. He thereafter ceased reverting or "discussing".


 * And again, BRD is not a Wikipedia policy. It's a recommendation, and one that was not followed even with the original reversion. natemup (talk) 15:22, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
 * The discussion about him being/not being African-American has nothing to do with him being/not being Catholic. The source that you originally added does not justify of him being a Catholic, because he did not say it himself. In addition, WP:BRD is the agreed procedure when dealing with content dispute. I advise you to start a discussion at Klay Thompson's talk page, because content disputes are discussed at subject's talk page. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:30, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Concerning actual Wikipedia *policy*, we're here to add claims from verifiable sources, not attempt to justify anything. Again, the BRD page clearly states that it is not a policy and that it is optional. Also, a verifiable source does not have to be from the horse's mouth.


 * Moreover, I fully agree that him being African-American has nothing to do with him being Catholic. You'll notice in the edit history on the page that I added the claim as well as a category, both of which were reverted together without explanation. When I undid the reversion, a dispute began concerning his ethnicity, but not his religion. Which is why the claim about him being Catholic remained. natemup (talk) 15:38, 2 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Note that you do not have to break 3RR to be edit warring. 3RR is a bright line, but you can be edit warring with fewer reverts. 331dot (talk) 17:33, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Number of Super Bowl wins
Regarding the revert of my change over at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions#Super_Bowl_wins_by_team - what do you mean by "All this can easily change if the Patriots or Steelers win the Super Bowl in next year"? Of course it can, everything on the page can change when any team wins again, that's why it can be edited once it changes - and while the stat stands, it can be included, because it is interesting and relevant piece of info (and placed unintrusively in a footnote). Once it is no longer true, it can be updated or removed. I believe that's why pages can be edited in time, it makes no sense to remove a stat now, just because it can change later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peepay (talk • contribs) 13:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Such information should be included at Tom Brady or Super Bowl LV but not at List of Super Bowl champions, which is about all the Super Bowl games (not to mention the inclusion of such note in unrelated tables). – Sabbatino (talk) 16:04, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Moved to User talk:Peepay
 * I want to remind both of you that this is not a forum per WP:TALKNO. In addition, if both of you wish to continue this discussion then go to Talk:List of Super Bowl champions and discuss it there. I want to also remind Peepay that the page in question and Wikipedia in general is not meant to include irrelevant trivia. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:48, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Luke Walton hiring
Why would the hiring date not be Monday, April 15, 2019 since that was the official date that Luke was hired? This AP article actually mentions the deal was agreed to on the following day after getting the call Friday, so the following day would be Saturday, April 13, 2019. I thought the formal date would be Monday, April 15, 2019. Thanks! https://apnews.com/article/61848bc92ade459f906f0b47fb7dd8c8 73.167.238.120 (talk) 05:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The team's press release was released on April 14, 2019, which is the date of hiring. The press release quite clearly states that Today, Sacramento Kings General Manager Vlade Divac named Luke Walton as the team's new head coach. The team's sources are the only reliable sources regarding the hiring since AP, NBA, ESPN and others wrote about it on the next day. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:28, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Steve Nash - removed addendum
Hey there - regarding your removal of my addendum to Steve Nash's opening statement that he is "Regarded as one of the greatest point guards in NBA history". Given his status and the three articles I used as a reference for this statement, I don't believe such a thing is incorrect. It's also standard practice on pages such as John Stockton and Magic Johnson for point guards specifically, though similar instances can be found on pages such as Kobe Bryant or Stephen Curry. Interested to hear your take. Thanks! Ned Edgewalker (talk) 05:49, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
 * First of all, you must open a discussion at Talk:Steve Nash and not here. Secondly, the page has a WP:GA tag, which means that not everything can be included. I want to also point out that there is no "standard practice" for these statements. Such statements are usually added in some section of the page and then mirrored in the lead, because the lead is supposed to summarize the content of the page. Just because something is added to some page that does not mean that similar content should be added to other page. Most of these so-called "top 10 best players" lists are nothing more than fanboy content. In addition, Bleacher Report is not considered reliable in most cases due to its editorial nature. – Sabbatino (talk) 06:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Kendall gill
Boxrec is the leading source of boxing, clearly you know nothing about boxing. Please educate yourself on it please before you edit pages. Sebzsoccer (talk) 12:29, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Also, relevancy is key and when you talk about Kendall gill today you bring up him wanting to box which in fact makes the record relevant and important info Sebzsoccer (talk) 12:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Why are you WP:UNCIVIL right from the start? Does that make you feel better? Or is that your attitude to become hostile when someone has other opinion than yours? Getting back to the issue, under which sanctioning body were those fights fought? Look at WP:NBOXING and specifically say which sanctioning body/bodies apply to those fights. And why would you delete a section for no reason? – Sabbatino (talk) 19:57, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

The state athletic commissions sanction the fights. Not all bouts are sanctioned by the major organizations. For this example the North Carolina state Athletic Commission sanction those fights. Sebzsoccer (talk) 22:36, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Those bouts were pro bouts and are recognized as such. Your fight when pro can be sanctioned by a major world organization if you either ranked or are fighting for one of their titles but you have to pay for it which is extremely expensive. When you are a boxer starting of your fights won’t be sanctioned by for example the IBF because it’s pointless to pay their high sanctioning fee for a fight where your just building your record. Athletic commissions such as the BBBofC or the NSAC are completely legit to have sanction fights. Sebzsoccer (talk) 22:45, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Look at other celebrity boxers like Jake Paul whose fights aren’t sanctioned by a major governing body but they put his fights on his wiki. Just to show one of many examples. Sebzsoccer (talk) 22:48, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

And also I would like to apologize for offending you. Sebzsoccer (talk) 14:14, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not offended. I am just busy with other things so I do not have time at the moment to either make edits or comments. While Paul might be notable for boxing since he is a "celebrity" (I am not interested in such pseudo-somethings like him), but that cannot be said about Gill's boxing career. Google search does not list any news coverage about his boxing matches. And a simple listing in some database fails WP:SIGCOV. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:25, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough, thanks for having this discussion Sebzsoccer (talk) 13:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Redundant URLs
Re, the PMC ID and the DOI already link the full text, that's why the link is considered redundant. See Help:Citation_Style_1. Nemo 17:17, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up! I did not realize that when making a revert. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:58, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Islanders
Howdy. Question is though, is it a permanent "A" for Brock Nelson, or merely filling in during Captain Anders Lee's injury, as 'at least' 3 letters are required during a game. GoodDay (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The source clearly indicates that he will be alternate until Lee returns. However, this is different since the team issued a press release about it and Lee missed more than half of the season, and who knows when he will return next season. It would be a completely different story if Nelson filled in for two or three games since teams do not announce such replacements (which we do not list). – Sabbatino (talk) 06:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * IMHO, we shouldn't list him as an alternate, since he got the 'letter' because of Lee's absence. But, I'll not protest any longer & will go along with the 1985-86 Montreal Canadiens precedent. The Habs in their season ending team photo, had Mats Naslund where an "A" along with Robinson & Tremblay, since he filled in for Tremblay during the last-half of the '85-'86 season & the entire playoffs. Also, there's the season ending 2003-04 New Jersey Devils team photo, having Stevens 'and' Niedermayer wearing the "C" (the latter filling in for the half-season injured former). So no probs. GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

NBA conference standings
I'm noticing just today that you removed several pages from the separate categories for Eastern and Western Conferences a few days ago (I found out because there's now a request for speedy deletion going on right now, and I was notified about the cases as their creator). Is there any necessary reason behind this, because I had started to separate the templates into separate categories a while back? –Piranha249 (Discuss with me) 16:47, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Please refer to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 41. I want to also add that usually an editor finishes its work when he/she starts something and changing categories is not that hard. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Your conduct
As you are aware, you were given a final warning in February 2017 regarding your personal attacks towards other people. This happened as part of a larger discussion about your conduct. In many cases recently (examples; ) you have made accusations about people's literacy. After 8 years on this project and more than 87k edits, I am at a distinct loss as to how you could begin to believe these sorts of comments are anything other than a direct personal attack towards people when you should treat each other with respect and civility. Given that earlier discussion, given that discussion wasn't an isolated event, given that you've been given a final warning, it must be unequivocally clear to you that you are out of line with your behavior. Yet, it continues. Further, despite prior discussions regarding your edit warring behavior, you continue to engage in such behaviors (examples: At Chris Paul with and, and at National Basketball Association with  and ). In both cases you failed to make any attempt to discuss the issues with the respective editors either on the talk page of the articles or on their talk pages. Per WP:REVTALK, you should not be using edit summaries to continue a dispute nor to express opinions about other editors. You have been here a considerable amount of time. By now, you should know better than to believe your behavior is somehow appropriate in a collaborative editing environment. Any further behavior such as what I've identified above or other behavior that is incongruent with collegial editing here will be met with a temporary block of your editing privileges here. You must consider this a final warning. With this final warning, you've now been given two final warnings separated by four years. If your conduct hasn't improved in four years, and this second final warning is incapable of getting you to amend your behavior, I dare say nothing will. You are on an extremely slippery slope. You can choose to either abide by community norms for civil discussion and behavior here or you can choose to be blocked by continuing the behavior. Either way, this ends now. How it ends is a choice I leave to you. I hope you decide well. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:09, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I am amazed that you are judging me by few selected edits when you probably did not try to understand the situations at Chris Paul and National Basketball Association pages. The situation at Chris Paul page – the discussion about the issue is not over at WT:NBA and WP:STATUSQUO must be restored until the discussion is over. The situation at National Basketball Association is different since such additions have been reverted in the past by other editors (and not just me). It would really be wise to understand certain situations instead of just throwing an accusation and warning against me. I also see that a certain editor wrote on your talk page regarding my edits instead of directly asking me, which I believe is bad faith. I did not mean anything bad by it (I wonder from where the editor got the implication that my edit summary was related to someone's problems with learning comprehension). If certain page's name has diacritics then it should be correctly reflected everywhere else unless certain WikiProject has some rules regarding it (like WP:NCIH). Do I feel being followed? Of course I do. If someone has a problem or a question regarding my editing then they should just ask me instead of complaining to other editors. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:08, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The warning stands. It would behoove you to take the opportunity to understand that calling someone illiterate does nothing to enhance the editing environment and stands directly against our policies here. You know our policies. There is no excuse. Trying to make this go away by making accusations towards me or other people will not work. If you are not willing to embrace that reality, you will find yourself blocked. As I said, this ends now. The choice of how it ends is yours. I do hope you choose well. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I am not "Trying to make this go away by making accusations towards...". I simply stated a clear fact that if someone has a problem then they should just come to me. In addition, I will archive this to avoid further miscommunication which is evident for me. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:53, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Expansion of the National Basketball Association
Hello, I noticed you recently opted to undo a substantial edit of additions made to Expansion of the National Basketball Association, citing unsourced content and WP:OR (I'm assuming you meant WP:NOR). I'm curious as to where specifically you considered the sourcing to be inadequate, considering several direct sources were used for the data that upon another review, appear to back up everything that was added in this edit. I invite you to check the edit again and identify the unsourced content so the appropriate additions can still be made without any dispute. However, if my removal of the following tag is what you are disputing, I'd be happy to put it back, as I realize that was an arbitrary decision I may have made too hastily and independently: I appreciate any specific feedback as significant effort has been put into improving this page by myself and other users in recent months. I value the efforts of fellow users like yourself who work to improve pages like this one and ensure appropriate sourcing. Cheers. Azure1233 (talk) 14:52, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:OR and WP:NOR is the same thing so I do not really see why you would get confused. All of the sections that you added were either unsourced (Tampa Bay) or had a reference that had nothing to do with the NBA (St. Louis), and both of them were original research. In addition, there are only four major leagues in the United States and Canada (NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB), while MLS and CFL are sometimes included in the top 6 list, but neither of them are considered as major leagues compared to the top 4 leagues. And we do not add charts/tables like "Potential expansion markets comparison chart", because that is clearly original research. A city with 2–3 million people is not guaranteed to get a team, because there are many other things that are taken into consideration when picking the location for a new team. You can ask the same question at WT:NBA. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:49, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sabbatino: I see what you were referring to now as far as original research and clearly understand the revert now. I’ll be mindful of this in the future. Azure1233 (talk) 13:29, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Regarding your reversion of my edit to "Jimmy Hayes (ice hockey)"
Greetings and felicitations. I noticed that you reverted my edit to Jimmy Hayes (ice hockey), with the edit summary "not per infobox's documentation", which I do not understand as Template:Infobox ice hockey player does not seem to have an applicable clause for the changes I made. I:


 * Moved the "Use mdy dates" template, per MOS:ORDER.
 * Made a minor (trivial) correction to capitalization.
 * Placed the contents of the infobox's "played_for" field in a Plain list to make them easier to read in editing mode, while maintaining them in the same order as they had been in previously.
 * Added a carriage return after the infobox to aid in editing.

If you would please be so kind, tell me, to what precisely do you object? —DocWatson42 (talk) 06:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I already restored the MOS:ORDER concern, because I made the initial revert through my phone. My main concern was the change from  to Template:Plainlist in the   parameter. I do know that MOS:PLAINLIST and MOS:ACCESS say not to use the breaks in infoboxes, but the documentation for Template:Infobox ice hockey player says otherwise. However, I should note that the template's documentation is outdated so a discussion at Template talk:Infobox ice hockey player or WT:NHL should be started to see what other editors have to say about this. There is really no need to have an empty line between the infobox and the beginning of prose, because the infobox is at the top of the page and not in the middle or some other place of the page so it is impossible to have trouble making edits (that is just my opinion) and I am not aware of MOS saying anything about it. – Sabbatino (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Incumbent boxes are used
Howdy. The majority of the current NHL captains used the 'incumbent' style navbox, when I adopted them for the current Islanders & Devils captains. Why would you revert them? GoodDay (talk) 02:58, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Because I thought that it was unnecessary to change the style. However, after looking at Template:S-start it appears that this template should be used instead of Template:Succession box:
 * The documentation for Succession box says – For purposes of consistency and simplicity, it is preferable to use s-start series templates in all cases.. However, it also says that Deprecated in favour of the s-start template series, the succession box template might be used only for the simplest succession lines. These are single succession lines showing nothing more than a succession of three people holding exactly the same title. so I was not wrong to restore it to the older format.
 * The documentation for s-start says – S-start replaces the previous formats for succession tables but still allows for most of their use indirectly. In the new format, every succession box begins with s-start, and thus it is an essential component of the new system. If you find a succession template not in this standard, please contact WikiProject Succession Box Standardization.. – Sabbatino (talk) 05:02, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

MOS + consensus
What specific pages or discussions are you referring to here? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:16, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The "consensus" part was about "Canadian/American". I will have to look it up, because it was discussed a long time ago, but I managed to locate a revert by other editor in here. Now the "MOS" part is about the city – the City, State/Province is always used in the infobox, tables etc., but it is not used in prose if the city's main page does not have a state modifier. That has always been the case with North American sports topics to say the least (I cannot talk about non-sports topics, because I do not edit them). – Sabbatino (talk) 03:03, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * So it's a sports-specific MOS page that says that? Do you know which one? Nikkimaria (talk) 11:29, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * It is not a "sports-specific" MOS. Why would you assume such a thing? It is just basic MOS stuff. In addition, this has been discussed in many places in the past and this formation is approved by WP:NHL. Furthermore, this formation has been in the page for many years (and other NHL team pages) and I am amazed that you decided that it is an issue now when you did not even blink in the past when this formation was restored by other editors. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:35, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I assumed that because you mentioned it's the case with North American sports topics; apologies if I misinterpreted. Could you please provide a link to the relevant MOS and/or the previous discussions? I'd like to understand the reasoning behind the disagreement. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:12, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Islanders
Howdy. I'm trying to maintain consistency at the Islanders' 2021-22 season & roster articles, with the List of current NHL captains and alternate captains article. Not to mention, the 3 bios of the players-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 15:36, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I already provided a source. The Islanders do not list them on their roster page as alternates. Stop edit warring for which you very well known. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:52, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * They're listed as alternate captains at the other articles I've mentioned. Why are you being inconsistent? GoodDay (talk) 15:58, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * That other page is not updated often and you with other editors just assume things there. I am not really interested in arguing with you or anyone else. – Sabbatino (talk) 16:00, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't wish to quarrel either. Just puzzled by your position on the topic. GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked at roster reports from the first four games. And alternate captains were:
 * October 14 – Bailey, Clutterbuck (captain Lee played in the game)
 * October 16 – Bailey, Clutterbuck (captain Lee played in the game)
 * October 19 – Bailey, Clutterbuck, Nelson (captain Lee did not play in the game)
 * October 21 – Bailey, Clutterbuck (captain Lee played in the game)
 * Seems like Bailey and Clutterbuck were retained as alternate captains, but Nelson's situation is unclear at this point. Roster reports indicate that Nelson gets an "A" when captain Lee is not playing. Even this press release says that So, while the Islanders have approached the void of losing their instinctual leader and captain in Lee - who is out for the remainder of the season after undergoing ACL surgery - with a committee approach, it was a meaningful nod for Head Coach Barry Trotz to deservingly appoint Nelson as an alternate captain in the meantime. Should we assume that Nelson is just an injury replacement alternate captain as it was before Lee's injury in the last season? – Sabbatino (talk) 07:47, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

My edit that you deleted on Lithuanians in the NBA page
Hey, I wanted to ask you why did you delete my edit. I added the number of seasons played, for it not to be confusing with players like Mindaugas Kuzminskas. If you look at the years he played in the NBA, he played in 2016-17. It looks like its only one season, but he actually played a game in his second season , which makes it 2 seasons and its impossible to tell it just by looking at the years he has played in. Kašioras69 (talk) 00:21, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The table is already rather big and if someone wants to know the exact number of seasons then they can go to the player's page.

Happy New Year, Sabbatino!


Happy New Year! Sabbatino, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

  Ravenswing     16:04, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

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