User talk:Schwede66/Taupō

Suggestions from others for improvement
I'm guessing that Schwede66 does not want a debate to erupt here in his Sandbox so anyone objecting to macrons is encouraged to wait until this proposal is posted for discussion. My suggestion is that this is proposed first as a clear proposal in the correct forum: Naming conventions (New Zealand), with Taupō used as a bulletproof case study. The "great macron debate of 2018" trailed off because. as the opponents of macrons rightly pointed out, the guidelines can't be altered without a discussion on the correct Talk page. Any attempt to change the guidelines for Taupō will simply be redirected to the naming conventions and told to change those first.

I would strongly suggest that anyone who wants to contribute take a look at the macron debate of 2007, the macron debate of 2018, and the latest exchange. Here are some key talking points we should get ready to deal with.


 * 1) Macrons are an optional pronunciation guide, not a spelling difference, unlike French where a cedilla is part of the alphabet. Long and short vowels change the meaning of words, so should be treated as different letters of the alphabet (as some Māori dictionary lists do); therefore macrons are changing the spelling.
 * 2) English Wikipedia is in English, and English doesn't have macrons. Te Reo has its own Wikipedia. Macrons have become standard usage in the majority of NZ English reliable sources in the last few years, so articles written in NZ English are required to reflect this (WP:COMMONNAME). The standard in English Wikipedia is for loanwords from other languages to be spelled with their accents, when those have become common usage (see éclair, even though English doesn't have acutes)
 * 3) Don't talk about "correct" and "incorrect" spelling: you're using Wikipedia to advance an agenda (RIGHTGREATWRONGS) We're merely reflecting the current prevailing usage in verifiable reliable sources (see MOS:DIACRITICS).
 * 4) Google shows the un-macronned name is more common. Google results are being overwhelmed by 160 years of historical usage of the un-macronned name, and will be for decades to come. Search results should be weighted towards the last few years, as we would also do for a "name change" (WP:NAMECHANGES) Google ngrams are also not reliable for this purpose, as many words published with diacritics get transcribed into Google's database without them (see Talk:Éclair)
 * 5) Macrons are only there because of positive discrimination / a Government mandate / political correctness / lobby groups. It doesn't matter why macrons have become standard in NZ English, in both government and independent media. All that matters is WP:COMMONNAME.
 * 6) Many users have English as a second language and will find macrons confusing. Looking up a non-macronned word in the dictionary and getting the wrong meaning will also be confusing. We need to be consistent with current usage in the sources being cited.

It's important to stress macrons are for "articles written in NZ English" (and they better all have an en-nz template); MOS:TIES recommends using NZ English in articles with strong ties to New Zealand.

Hope all the above is helpful. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 06:13, 21 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes, all good points. Correct, I'm not after a pro-and-con discussion here. What I'd like to see is others editing the proposal so that it's as good as it can be, and contribute to the discussion here where it could best be used, and how.  Schwede 66  07:22, 21 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Good points from Giantflightlessbirds, thanks for laying those out. I'm not sure if all the background in the proposal is necessary, but as you've both seen previous macron debates then if you think it's all useful/needed then go for it. Will happily support the proposal. MurielMary (talk) 08:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I think the draft is good. I think the level of detail is good to have as I have seen some of the debates and I think it is needed. The tone in the draft is neutral and factual information with evidence. I wonder if it is good to state the obvious more by way of introduction that this proposed move is about bringing Wikipedia up to date with current conventions? To explain more to people new to this. My other suggestion to the draft is to add to the last paragraph that it is Wikipedia naming conventions (ie. putting Wikipedia in front of the blue link). Pakoire (talk) 20:49, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Great work on this. One thing I would add is that NZ English usage is changing very rapidly. If you limit to NZ sources from the last year when searching in Google or just about any publication database, you will get mostly or all results spelling Taupō with a macron. -- haminoon  ( talk ) 21:07, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

We may need to remind users of MOS:ENGVAR. The Taupō article is in NZ English so it shouldn't matter how non-NZ publications and websites are spelling it. This shouldn't really need to be said, but a lot of users here think we should defer to the American BGN for international names because its in the guidelines -- haminoon  ( talk ) 21:29, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
 * All good points; thank you. Remember that this is written with me having in mind to use it for a requested move. If there is general agreement with Giantflightlessbirds' suggestion that it be used as a proposal to change our naming conventions (WP:RfC, I suppose), then it needs to be tweaked accordingly. Nobody seems to be saying otherwise and I'm happy to follow that suggestion. Feel free to edit the proposal directly; be BOLD! Things that will need to be added for an RfC include a paragraph referring to previous discussions (Giantflightlessbirds has more of less written that) as well as a concrete proposal ready for inclusion into the naming conventions.  Schwede 66  23:22, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Counter example
It may be worth pointing out the long-standing agreement on the orthography of Koro Wētere. It's had a macron for a decade. Stuartyeates (talk) 00:45, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I've written the proposal to suit geographic names. I'm not sure how I could fit this in.  Schwede 66  09:01, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Official names
Just noting the statement 'Far from Taupō just being the district council's official name, as determined by the New Zealand Geographic Board'.

The Taupo District Council has not officially amend its name in terms of s 260 LGA 2002. So far, only Ōtorohanga District Council, Ōpōtiki District Council, and Manawatū-Whanganui Regional Council officially have macrons: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2002/0084/latest/whole.html#DLM174258

The others would just be 'rebranding' I guess. 49.226.191.225 (talk) 00:56, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Good to know. Thanks for pointing that out.  Schwede 66  01:32, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Some pings
 Schwede 66  19:23, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, I've just figured that the template inserting a space between "User:" and the user name breaks the ping (and doesn't just result in a strange display of code). Never mind; let's try this again without a fancy template: Ritchie333—Kudpung—KrakatoaKatie—Rosiestep  Schwede 66  08:48, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Schwede; it's always nice to hear from you. I'm adding to this convo as they have experience with indigenous naming conventions in other parts of the world, and might wish to comment here. --Rosiestep (talk) 10:34, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Note that we're talking about placenames
It might be worth noting that this issue is over the use of macrons in placenames, although you might think from past debate it's whether we should use macrons at all in English Wikipedia! (One user has been methodically going through articles and replacing macronned names with the Maori language template, so kererū becomes kererū -- essentially saying that the word with macrons is a foreign word and not English.)

As the naming conventions point out, "Māori words, when they appear as the title of articles, are usually given with macrons where appropriate, and with a redirect from the unmacronned form." Other articles have been using macrons for some time. For example, New Zealand pigeon was just moved to kererū after a short discussion, and other bird names like kākā will likely follow. After some to-ing and fro-ing, weta now uses macrons (wētā) throughout the text, and I've requested an article move so the title is in agreement.

It would be nice to amend the proposal so it says "...be amended to allow the use of macrons for the titles of all articles written in New Zealand English?" This makes it clear that macrons are already perfectly acceptable for articles that aren't geographical features, and the current guidelines are a peculiar double standard.

(It would also be nice to include wording that specifies macrons should be used if they are now the prevailing form of the word in reliable sources. This goes beyond just place names.)--Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 21:30, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * That's fine by me. Note, though, that I've written the proposed wording changes to cover geographic names only. There will be more of WP:NCNZ that needs changing if we broaden the scope.  Schwede 66  23:04, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Let's get geographic names sorted. It's a little frustrating that weta uses "wētā" in the text and "weta" in the title, because one user is adamant that macrons are just a consequence of government departments "drinking the Kool-Aid" -- possibly, if you unpack it, one of the most offensive ways of describing macron use I've encountered on Wikipedia. --Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I was keen to amend the proposal but when you think it through, it requires a different case to be made for it, not just amend the naming conventions. Hence, I've come to the conclusion that it's best to leave the scope 'narrow' (in inverted commas as it's quite a big scope really).  Schwede 66  22:16, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Proposal is now live
See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (New Zealand). Thank you to all who have so far contributed.  Schwede 66  23:12, 24 January 2020 (UTC)