User talk:ScottPAnderson

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Wikipedia 3RR Shortcomings
I am dissapointed by Wikipedia's 3RR's implicit endorsement of discretionary reverts of good faith edits. I believe reverts are only useful in cases of clear vandalism - and should be strictly restricted to such. The current system discourages real collaboration. By allowing unsupported reverts, it encourages laziness, buck passing and ego driven power trips among editors. The 3RR encourages edit warriors to form "wikigangs" to harass newcomers (or those perceived as outside the "old-boy clique").

Instead of taking ownership and fixing a problem, the "revert junkie" would rather undo everything passing the "fix-it" buck back to the original editor. I wonder how many good intentioned people are driven away by these "wikiterrorists". ScottPAnderson (talk) 12:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Althought the policy (i think) Dont bite the newcommers is meant to stop this. Althought I think if you disagree with something you can always ask the Arbitration Committee - S ophie  ( Talk ) 13:09, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll try and and get the revert rules changed.ScottPAnderson (talk) 13:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think many editors see WP:3RR as a target, rather than a violation, and in some respects WP:3RR and WP:AN3 encourage that view (in as much as they don't kick in until an editor crosses the line).
 * However, reverting (once) is useful in terms of kicking off a discussion. Since the onus is on editors making a change to justify their change, reverting once is - IMHO - fine if other editors disagree. The problem arises when the two sets of editors then simply revert each other, "safe" in the knowledge that they probably won't be held to account for their conduct until they approach 3 reverts.
 * To my mind, if editors focus on the "Five Pillars" (and in particular the 4th: it deals with civility, but includes consensus) they should be fine. The problem is when dealing with editors who either don't know about this aspect of Wikipedia, or simply don't care. It's difficult to deal with editors like this, but part of the 4th Pillar is assuming good faith. To my mind (and this is all IMHO...) that means firstly explaining policies, guidelines, and Wikipedia's behavioural norms to them.
 * The editors I find difficult to deal with are those that simply don't communicate - many editors simply don't use talk pages at all. In most cases, though, there are ways round that problem - if an unregistered editor repeatedly makes erroneous changes to an article we can request that the article be "semi-protected" (so that only registered editors can edit it). This often "forces" the IP editor to discuss the issue. In more extreme cases editors who don't communicate can be blocked.
 * I think in many ways the issues at "the 1952 article" are very, very manageable. There are several editors discussing issues, since yesterday there are several more, including a few admins. Issues seem to become less serious with many eyes on a problem.
 * I mentioned yesterday WP:AN3: I probably should also have mentioned that it's part of a wider set of dispute resolution venues. Some of them are quite informal: WP:3O, for example, simply involves two editors in a disagreement getting a "third opinion" from a non-involved editor. Others are much more bureaucratic! They're all worth taking a look at, however. My main advice, though, would be to try and avoid needing dispute resolution - by discussing and reaching at a consensus.
 * Hope this is useful - it's (mostly) just my opinion, and I'm just a regular, ordinary editor, so take what I say with a pinch of salt, season to your own taste, and enjoy!
 * Cheers, TFOWRpropaganda 13:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks TFOWR. I'll propose a new 1RR-G (max 1 revert rule per day for good faith edits - possibly with 24hr autoblock when exceeded). If implemented, editors would be less tempted to click undo and less time would be needed for edit war arbitration. ScottPAnderson (talk) 14:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Knock it off, both of you
Yesterday was a mess, and I ended up reporting two editors at WP:ANI. As a result the article is now move-protected.

Today is shaping up to be an equally large mess. Let me be absolutely clear what I mean by consensus and discussion: I mean discuss until you resolve your differences and then - and only then - edit. I do not mean "post on the talk page and then immediately edit or revert the article". I do not mean "carry on an inflammatory conversation by way of snarky edit summaries".

Yesterday's fiasco drew a lot of new editors - posts at ANI tend to achieve that. I suspect, too, that a number of admins are now carefully monitoring the article, not because they intend to edit it, but because they're concerned about the disruptive potential it poses. You can either demonstrate that you can both work collaboratively, or you can wait until the article is fully-protected, you're both topic-banned from Kenya topics, or you're both blocked. Working collaboratively gives you both some control over the article; the other options achieve the exact opposite.

It should be clear by now that if I initiate any form of dispute resolution - including posting at WP:ANI - I will name and shame all parties, myself included, and let smarter and cooler heads determine the best outcome. Please sort this out and don't force me - or someone else - to escalate this further.

Cheers, TFOWRpropaganda 17:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Identical message sent to both editors.
 * With all due respect, TFOWR, the last time I checked, I was the one being abused. :-(

ScottPAnderson (talk) 17:14, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * There are a whole range of issues I listed above, abuse being one of them. Some of the issues may apply mainly to one editor; other issues may apply mainly to the other editor. However, you both need to start editing collaboratively. Cheers, TFOWRpropaganda 17:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your efforts to be neutral but in this instance, I disagree with your approach - which I find somewhat condescending. User Sh33pl0re is breaking rules with impunity. What exactly have I done? ScottPAnderson (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This is the edit in particular that concerned me. I don't personally feel edits/reverts during a discussion are helpful, and while I'm aware you're both doing it you asked me what you'd done. I agree there may well be "a worse wrong" and "a less worse wrong" here. I also don't really care. What I'm seeing is disruption - two editors bickering, editing, reverting each other.
 * You don't have to take my advice. All I can do is offer advice - I have no special powers. My advice is that what happened yesterday, and what's happening today, is likely to be resolved by an admin with an itchy trigger finger who feels that blocking two editors will neatly avoid any allegation that the admin is partisan. If an admin goes down that route they won't get any argument from me.
 * Cheers, TFOWRpropaganda 17:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I know you have good intentions but this is leading nowhere. Clearly user:Sh33pl0re has achieved something here.
 * Look, I have done nothing wrong. user:Sh33pl0re hurled serious insults and vulgarity at me several times today. At least one other editor immediately protested to his behavior. In addition user:Sh33pl0re made more than 10 unprovoked personal attacks against me to which more than 3 editors - including yourself objected (see his talk page). He then went on to delete valid material (your example) - which I reverted just *once*. My comments on his talk page have been gentle and accommodating. What have I done wrong? You cannot claim impartiality if you give user:Sh33pl0re's obviously disruptive actions the same weight as my good faith actions. If I am to be blocked for defending my innocence so be it. It won't change the fact that I am the victim of user:Sh33pl0re's time wasting behavior. Good day.ScottPAnderson (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

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