User talk:Selona

Hi Selona, I really appreciate your attempts to improve the Sorraia article, but you need to learn about how to do proper wikipedia formatting. See WP:CITE and WP:IMAGES for guidelines, or just copy the formatting tags I have used in the article. Footnotes need to have author, title, publisher, date and other information. I cleaned up your earlier attempts, but now it is time for you to learn to do these things properly. If you need help, feel free to ask me on the article talk page, or here, or on my talk page. Thanks,   Montanabw (talk) 22:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and also, while the new photo is nice, I don't think you can post it to wikipedia without evidence that the photographer has allowed it to be published anywhere as a free image. Again, check the guidelines for images and ask the help desk if you need more directions. (I know other times similar photos have been deleted from wikipedia after just a few weeks if they don't have the proper permissions.) That's why I put the old one back in. Montanabw (talk) 22:44, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorraia article
Selona, I apologize if my re-write to the article produced more information that you feel is incorrect. However, this is what my sources are saying, and several of those sources were written by Hardy Oelke, who you promote as an expert on the breed. Do you have source material that says otherwise? If so, please feel free to add the information, either on the talk page or to the article itself. As I said in my note on the talk page last night, I plan to do more research as I have time over the next few days, and I more than welcome specific comments or corrections to my work. I can only go as far as my sources will let me, so if you have better verifiable, NPOV sources than I do, please feel free to add them. You are welcome to contact me on the Paso Fino talk page or on my talk page. Dana boomer (talk) 20:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Selona. Sorraia is in GA review and I would like to ensure that your concerns are resolved.  Please see Talk:Sorraia/GA1.  --Una Smith (talk) 00:09, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Selona, Dana has Sorraia under control, don't worry. Dana is one of the finest editors at WPEQ and you already know she is also one of the NICEST people on wikipedia also.   Montanabw (talk) 23:02, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I maybe have it under control. As I said on the review page, you are more than welcome to weigh in. I apologize for not notifying you of the beginning of the GA review - I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you would see the review come up on the talk page of the article. Thank you for commenting what you have already - Una, I believe, is trying to either remove or water down many of the claims, theories and facts that you pushed so hard to have Montanabw and I include in the article.
 * I truly hope that you did not feel that Montanabw and I were "discouraging" you from editing the article. I felt (again, perhaps wrongly) that you were content to place your information, discussion and photos on the talk page and let us integrate them into the article. If I went overboard in this, I again apologize. Dana boomer (talk) 00:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * See how unbelievably nice Dana is?! She apologizes even when she doesn't have to!  We can all take lessons in civility from her!  :-)    Montanabw (talk) 01:21, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Montana and Dana, thanks for your thoughts. Not to worry, I'm mostly taking things in stride and feel this is an opportunity to strengthen some obvious weak and easily misinterpreted elements of the Sorraia article. I actually had been checking the review page every couple of days to see if anything had begun on it--and then WOW, a flush of mushrooms seemed to erupt overnight! It took me awhile to decide whether or not it would be necessary for me to enter the fray, and Una's prompt here on the talk page made me decided it was important for me to lend my voice to the concerns being raised. Now, I'm looking things over very carefully and will report back tomorrow or Monday.Selona (talk) 12:43, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Practicing with a photo


Hey! It worked! Selona (talk) 12:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hooray for you!  Montanabw (talk) 05:12, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar
Thank you very much for the barnstar! You have been a joy to work with, and all of the sources (and the photos) have helped to make the article much better. Dana boomer (talk) 13:56, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, you've definitely earned it, Dana. I was glad to be able to hang in there with you seasoned editors and keep helping craft an article that would be more suitable than what was originally a "stub". One more thing I'd like to do is try again to upload Hardy's photo--maybe tomorrow.Selona (talk) 17:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Double yay here for barnstars! Photos, barnstars, Selona, you are on your way to wiki-wonkdom!  Who knows, maybe Parser functions will be next!  (Big LOL -- THOSE make my head explode and two+ years into wiki I still can't figure them out!)   Montanabw (talk) 22:38, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I dunno, Montana, I'm feeling like I need to detox and debrief after this foray into the world of wiki! So, was there really a time when you could send someone a wiki-beer?  Myself, I prefer a Guinness.  Selona (talk) 00:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't find a template, but this might help! Montanabw (talk) 03:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC) [[Image:GuinnessBeer.jpg|thumb|100 px]]

Perfect, Montana...its a beautiful sight to see, that pint of dark liquid, though its missing the ultra creamy head that one gets from the draft version--even better if you can get one pulled for you at Jackie Lynch's pub in County Cork. Thanks for this!Selona (talk) 13:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Need...beer
Hi Selona,

Yeah, the Przewalski is not at all like a Sorrraia and I am with you 100% on that. There is basically a whole dustup over the issues related to other members of genus Equus and, well, Sorraia has sort of been dragged into it, almost by accident. Just explain things in a way that is short, sweet and let the rest of us get all bothered with each other! LOL! Wikipedia, like any community, has all types. Some like me are just grumpy and snarky but come around with enough chocolate or red wine or something! Others are more actively disagreeable, and a few are the most unbelievably kind and patient people you will ever know. Some can be straightened out by intelligent discussion, others cannot have their mind changed by the facts. It's a big old wiki-whacky world! Montanabw (talk) 03:01, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Hair waves
Selona, is your stallion's coat plush? I notice the breed standard mentions hair finer than in some northern (?) breeds, and I have seen hair waves like this in horses with unusually plush coats. --Una Smith (talk) 22:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear Una,Thank you for your inquiry. Altamiro's hair is dense and fine when in summer coat, (the "wrinkle" stripes are more apparent then).  This is his third Canadian winter, so his hair coat presently is definitely plush and the the "wrinkle" stripes are less noticeable.  I'll look for a summer photo that show it if you like.  I should also put up some photos for the "grullo" wiki-page maybe.  Might need a beer for that, though. ;-)Selona (talk) 23:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * A dense and fine summer coat is what I meant by "plush". Some breeds of cat have very plush fur, especially breeds that have grey fur.  It tends to be low gloss too.  More photos would be wonderful.  --Una Smith (talk) 03:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Selona, maybe you can clarify using examples all of us should (I hope) be familiar with? I have Arabians, down the road my neighbors have Norwegian Fjords. Neither types are "plush" the way my gray barn cat is "plush," (see Mounting block for a photo of the cat in question)  but I think I get what Una means -- the coats of the Fjords, even in the summer, while soft, are somewhat heavier and thicker-feeling, closer to the coat of the gray barn cat than are the coats of my Arabs.  Even in the winter, the Arabs when fuzzy look about like the Fjords do in the summer, while the Fjords look like they could be cast in a movie about the Ica Age!  LOL!   I used to own an old-style shetland pony when I was a kid, his hair was like the Fjords' too.  HOWEVER, none has "wavy" hair under normal circumstances, but like Una commented on another talk page, any horse, when they are sweaty, will get sort of wavy hair, though on the Arabs, it's only "wavy" when it's long.  So, is your Sorraia's hair coat more like that of a draft horse (or an old style shetland pony, for that matter) or more like a TB or Arabian?  I think the wavy coat, as shown on the photo of the foal, IS something kind of unique...I presume the foal was dry and that wasn't just residue from the amniotic fluid or something??

I've uploaded a few photos to demonstrate the difference between the pseudo-striping due to the lay of the hair, one showing Altamiro's first born, Animado (who was born in early April after a snowstorm, coming out of the womb with a complete winter coat, which later shed out to grullo). The close up is of Ciente, the Kiger mare of good Sorraia phenotype and the third is of Altamiro (with my Polish Arabian gelding, Mistral who is my retired dressage horse, still fabulous at 28 years of age!). It's a little more difficult to see Altamiro's chest and neck pseudo-stripes due to his darker grullo shade, though it also depends on the way the light hits him. Tomorrow I'll upload a couple other photos showing that while these guys (the primitives as I refer to them) do seem to have a denser coat than Mistral (who's hair is not as thin as other Arabians I've seen and not nearly as thin and tight as is my chestnut Thoroughbred gelding), it is not exactly like the plush cat fur you describe and it is very sleek and shiny in the summer. Selona (talk) 18:51, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I should also say that the photo of Altamiro and Ciente were from June, and here on the island, the horses aren't fully shed out yet, which you can see I think.Selona (talk) 18:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I hope the photos helped you see a bit more what the pseudo-stripes look like on both a foal and a mature Sorraia and Sorraia Mustang. Theses horses' grullo hair coat, as mentioned above, do not catch the light and shine in the same manner as does my chestnut Thoroughbred gelding, and even their summer coats are "plush" compared to his, so the hair coat is different, very, very dense, and prone to looking sepia, lilac, blue, purple, smoke grey, charcoal depending on the atmosphere of the day.  These variations of grullo color make for excellent camouflage within their wilderness environment here on the island.  For more photos, for now I will direct you to my blog where there are lots of photos of these guys.  If there is one or more that any of the editors feel will help illustrate an article let me know and I'll consider uploading them to the Wikipedia Commons.

Winter hair coats can be seen here: http://ravenseyrie.blogspot.com/2009/01/wintering-well.html and http://ravenseyrie.blogspot.com/2008/11/winter-routine-in-november.html

Summer hair coats can be seen here: http://ravenseyrie.blogspot.com/2008/06/sunday-at-beach.html

Camouflage hair coats can be seen here: http://ravenseyrie.blogspot.com/2008/06/ravenseyrie-is-rugged-wilderness-filled.html

Selona (talk) 20:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Extra Photos for Sorraia article
I've uploaded two photos which might be useful in the Sorraia article.

The first one is Ciente, a Kiger Mustang mare of very good Sorraia phenotype and the second photo is Altamiro, showing the convex profile, one of the distinguishing characteristics of the Sorraia horse.

Selona (talk) 19:48, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Kigers aren't Sorraias, they came out of Mustang herds in Oregon. Maybe a common ancestor 500 years ago, though, but not a Sorraia today... Montanabw (talk)
 * Yeah, but per photo caption the mare is being used as foundation bloodstock on the Sorraia preserve in Canada, which makes the pic relevant, IMO. Selona, I've tossed in the photos, see what you think. There are a bunch of rules that photos should follow (subject facing into article, not directly under a header, etc), which is why I placed the convex pic like I did. Feel free to play around with placement if you want though. I also added a bit about the convex profile to the lead. Great pics, thank you so much! Dana boomer (talk) 20:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the laugh, Montana! I nearly spit my tea out when I read your comment. Of course I know that Kiger mustangs are not Sorraias, and the text I included is pretty clear on that. I offered the photo because the article mentions the presence of the Sorraia phenotype and genotype in certain North American Mustang horses. I thought it would be helpful to provide a photo example of one. Dana, thanks for picking up on what I was offering. I'll go have a look at the article and see what you've done with the photos.Selona (talk) 20:36, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Selona. It's a bummer that the article review process got hijacked by one particular user with a reputation for causing a lot of trouble around here, which drew in some other people who are good editors, but being scientific types, can also be kind of fussy.  I feel bad for you that your wikipedia experience took some many sharp turns.  (I am getting close to my three-year anniversary as a wikipedia editor, and as you note above, this thing was even making ME want to take up the drink!  LOL!)  The trick now for Sorraia fans is to realize some of the legitimate (as opposed to the groundless but annoying) concerns raised here and encourage the people who are doing DNA studies on the Sorraia, the Mustang and other Colonial Spanish horses in the USA as well as the various Iberian horses over in Spain.  I would love to see this stuff all sorted out.  I know there was a study on the mtDNA of Arabian mares that showed that the famous mythic "pure in strain" stuff was pretty much hogwash, as mares allegedly from the same tail-female line had DIFFERENT mtDNA!  LOL!  There was that other study of Barbs and Andalusians that clearly showed the the two had been crossed on each other.  I would find it really interesting if it is true that the Sorraia is in fact an ancient ancestor that survived to the present day.  I am of the theory that the Tarpan was NOT the ancestor of the domestic horse, as the animal that survived into the 1800s was never successfully domesticated...it had to be something else, or at least a different variety that decided that humans were predators a critter could (sort of) live with. LOL!  Who knows?    Montanabw (talk) 00:07, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL, and I guess I am one of the fussy sciency types.... ;-)-- Kim van der Linde at venus 02:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Precisely! But in a good way, most of the time!  (noogies to Kim!)  LOL!  Now, where is that beer?  We ALL need one.  Or maybe a nice, stiff shot of Jack Daniels.  Montanabw (talk) 05:09, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

It was a process that made for an extremely tight head, but I cannot say it wasn't worth while, because some of the article I like better. Some of it I still feel has taken the science and used it to reflect a different viewpoint than for which it was intended and I'm not convinced it is "right", but to be honest, I find the mtDNA process amazingly confusing and so based on a lot of inferences, prognostications, mathematical assumptions, etc. that its no wonder it appears to be open to various interpretations. At the very least I can say that I'm glad the "fussy sciency" types like Kim and Una and others took a look at the article and dug around themselves, proving at the very least that the Sorraia is a horse that is of interest to science and is more than just a recently created color breed. Living with these horses the way I do, I can tell you that there is something definitely different about their way of being than what I experience with my Arabian, my Thoroughbred or our draft mules. If I were a rough and tumble cowboy, I daresay Altamiro wouldn't have a thing to do with me.Selona (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's safe to say that no one thinks this is a color breed. The crosses with American Mustangs may become an issue later if the crossbreds begin to overwhelm the orginal stock, but there is no question that we have something interesting going on here.   Montanabw (talk) 00:22, 11 February 2009 (UTC)