User talk:SeoR/Archive 1

Into Wikipedia
New user, May 2007. Dublin, Meath and beyond. Edit interests around Dublin localities and history, ditto for parts of Meath, Cork and the rest of Ireland, myth and folklore, libraries, fantasy and science fiction, including Irish authors in those areas, Gaeilge, some industry areas, and generally working towards a more linked-up world (long-time on Web, several sites). Will also join Commons, aiming to add content from own stores, including current photography and historic mapping. Looking forward to this work, having made suggestions and provided material to existing Wikipedians in the past (and had the "compliment" of having some of my material "borrowed" too), and hoping to find an interesting and (fairly) harmonious community. SeoR 09:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Commons adventure

 * Going to Commons tomorrow, with photography taken the other weekend, etc. Fingers crossed... SeoR 23:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Finally got to Commons properly mid-June, and while I have been work-occupied most of the last ten days, got some time to explore Commons, set up an ID, accept the trigger mail, and now starting a little uploading. SeoR 10:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Institutional Repository of DCU
Hi,

Thanks for the re-edit of the IR entry in the DCU Library section. The service has not been officially launched but it is operational. Resource and preservation metadata is being currently exposed and harvested and attendant resources accessed. The process of service advocacy continues and deposits are being added - both platform and service are a stable release and not a pilot.

The library section needs expansion and flagging the IR service needs to be cited within the overall service context. Any comments you have regarding this please let me know.

Regards,

Garret McMahon - DCU Library


 * 'Welcome. I hope my edit was not seen as in any way negative, the IR concept is excellent but in an open excyclopedia, we need to make it accessible / comprehensible, and the original note was an "orphan" few words, which I tried to integrate with the revised note. Best of luck with the ongoing work, and hope the pilot is running smoothly.

I note the query re. the use of "pilot" but also note that this is the term used in DCU's own publicity re. the matter. Perhaps a different term can be constructed relating to "pre-launch" or "fully functional trial". SeoR 09:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Welcome!
Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically produce your name and the date.
 * Introduction
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page
 * Help pages
 * How to write a great article
 * Manual of Style

Personal note: Welcome to Wikipedia, SeoR! Good luck!

If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place  on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! &mdash;Bastun BaStun not BaTsun 10:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much / Buiochas! I also hope to have a good and interesting time. Regards! SeoR 19:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

In response to Category_talk:Blanchardstown
I'm more of a vandal-fighter, than someone who does much work on Wikipedia - and I've only gone so far as registered on the Vicipéid. I have however taken it upon myself to make Dunboyne better, since it is where I live - and plus beforehand it was in such a sorry state..... -- TheChrisD™ 15:24, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds useful and important. I myself have run into what looks like marketing "planting" already but of course as an ordinary reader / user, I saw some vandalism (usually childish) and heard of other incidents.
 * On Blanchardstown, perhaps if we see if there are other articles which could provide enough bulk for a category; as the city's second-biggest suburban area, it probably has enough... SeoR 06:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Park West
Hello new editor. Might I ask that you don't re-categorise Dublin "Towns and Suburbs" without some discussion (I'm assuming it was you who recategorised Citywest). Park West for example is much more that a "business park" - ask some of the thousands of people living there! (Sarah777 23:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Hello Sarah77. Have not got to City West yet, but I had noted that Towns and Suburbs - which I think means something clear to the ordinary gal/guy reading (including me in my previous existence as an ordinary Wikipedia user) - while mostly being actual suburbs of Dublin, and nearby villages/towns, also had a number of housing estates and business parks. These are commercial developments, and often fine ones, but they are *not* suburbs, except maybe to property agencies. I note from the discussion forums that such issues have arisen before. Whether posted as such for promotional reasons or not, I thought the best thing was to simply correct the categorisation, while adding to the article if possible; further, one could place them into the suburbs to which they do belong. And so Point Village, a road in Dundrum, etc., also... Maybe some day some of these will be new suburbs, but probably not under marketing names like "Park West", and before being recognised encyclopedically, in a longer timetable, with appropriate action by the authorities (neither local authority nor An Post has recognised Park West or City West, which is Tallaght/Saggart, for example, as anything like a suburb). On numbers, thousands can live in one apartment complex too, but that does not make it a suburb.
 * Anyway, I guess I am not the only concerned party, and I think this does matter in a publication aiming for encyclopedic standards, but of course I am happy to discuss further. Perhaps best if I raise a topic in the Ireland discussion area. SeoR 06:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
 * If you review the discussions on this issue you'll see that I have been involved in trying to get various housing estates, invented places etc de-listed as "surburbs" (without much support from fellow Wikipedians). Regarding Citywest and Park West I completely disagree with you on the notion of "required time-span"; "commercial development" and your dismissal of the residency issue as "an apartment block". Citywest is a suburb; it includes the Hotel and Golf Course outside the Business Park; both Citywest and Park West are getting their own named railway/luas stations, Citywest is widely referred to as a suburb in conversation and in the media. By all means take your case to the Irish Wikipedians forum; you'll need more argument and less assertion over there! (Sarah777 09:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Thanks for reverting, Sarah. I am glad to hear that re. housing estates, invented places, etc. As your activity from joining last year is pretty substantial, I take your word for this, and I think we agree then on the issue. Great.
 * I am not, however, convinced re. the developments in question, and I do not see the relevance of the hotel, for example. And as a Dubliner, I have never heard either City or Park West called a suburb; most usually, they are called "industrial estates", whether that is fair or not.
 * I hope there is no problem with my raising a legitimate issue; I assume good faith all round from colleagues (if not necessarily one-time IDs!) but am a little concerned at the tone of the remarks here and in history, such as "more argument and less assertion". After all, Park West and the other two are only in Wikipedia by assertion in the first place! Anyway, hope we can agree to plough ahead, and I will look back to Dublin areas in a day or two, but will keep clear of Park West - City West - Cherrywood, other than typo correction. All the best! SeoR 12:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


 * SeoR! Apologies for any tonal aggression but I am now a veteran of many Wiki-battles and have come to realise that "assuming good faith" is more honoured in the breach than otherwise. I was reacting to remarks such as "surely a joke" and "no need for any discussion" etcetera. However now that I'm getting to know you I sense there is probably no real difference between us on categorising suburbs! (And at least you are interested in the topic; my earlier attempt to get Irish Wikipedians interested in establishing some rules generated a collective yawn. Regards (Sarah777 20:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Hi Sarah, somewhat accidentally, I had a timeout Friday - as with some others, where I note logins clustered at lunchtime (and late evening), I often edit from work, and Friday was a killer, with a major bid. And then I took some time yesterday to just browse, and to follow some users' edit histories (three samples from Ireland, etc.), and to read more debates. And then, to this morning, some photography.
 * Anyway, thanks, and my apologies for any initial hastiness in editing. I shall not make remarks about jokes, or no need for discussion, but I have seen such in the edit comments here and there, and I note that some of the debates on the Irish talk page have been rather "pointed". I will try to avoid all such, hence my raising, gently, the question here, up front. And if we can work together on suburban definition, or more substantive issues, delighted. I will resume editing this evening, hopefully including some photo additions (via Commons, I think, which I believe I need to sign up for separately). Regards,

Grand Canal Dock
I wondered how long till you spotted this! That was quick. I've commented on the GCD discussion page. Regards (Sarah777 19:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC))
 * Thanks Sarah; only really got back to editing yesterday, and visited every one of Towns and Suburbs. One definite goner, a housing estate in little old Firhouse, and two I thought questionable, but have only queried. Will revert at GDC, SeoR 06:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Perrystown
I de-listed this and made it part of Crumlin. Then I noticed Windy Arbour has become a suburb...always marked on maps but rarely mention till the Luas halt arrived. Should Perrystown be separate? Is it less a "suburb" than Windy Arbour? (Sarah777 22:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC))


 * Ah, tougher cases. Windy Arbour is usually considered part of Dundrum, both the tiny village area and the nearby housing.  But it has some historic identity.
 * But Perrystown I have neither observed over the years of reading about Dublin and its maps (and one of the folks lives in Crumlin) nor heard of as a distinct area. Sounds to me like you got it right.  I do prefer a conservative approach to divisions of the city, though.  SeoR 23:40, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

DYK

 * Great job, I nominated this one! Nice work.  --Smee 13:12, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Sending redirects to AfD
Thanks for your efforts to keep Wikipedia neat and tidy. I need to give you some feedback, however, on the Clontarf redirects that you nominated for AfD. First, redirects don't get sent to AfD, they get sent to Redirects for discussion. Second, for redirects such as C of i, rather then nominating it for deletion, it's more appropriate to simply edit it and send it to the proper destination, in this case Church of Ireland. As the guideline states, redirects are cheap, and are used to aid the search engine in helping people find articles. Thus, many editors create a number of redirects when they create an article, using all possible combinations of the subject's name. This is generally a good thing. If you have any questions, or need further clarification, please don't hesitate to drop me a line.  AK Radecki  17:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks, AFRadecki. All part of the learning for me, notably re. the process for redirect queries. As to the issue, I happened onto it along the way, and it seemed to me, in line with comments from others, that there was an issue, matching a greater pattern. I did not just edit the redirects because I thought a debate was more appropriate, and to be honest, I am not sure something as generic as C of I should be there at all - I am sure it has other meanings in the world. Apologies for any nuisance.
 * And now that I know that multiple redirects are seen as a positive, and a tool, I guess I had better go back and create at least some more for past articles. I was assuming the search tool took care of common variants, a la Google, but this sounds perfectly workable too. SeoR 00:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Malahide
Do you have a source for your recent edit to Malahide? What you wrote as a reference is just extra detail. What references are really supposed to be are references to external verifiable sources for the edits you add. Hope you can do that. Thanks ww2censor 03:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, one paper but one online and so readily useable - and will add at once. Thanks for hint. Perhaps what I was really looking for was a Footnote capability, and I may have picked up a wrong example from other cases. SeoR 23:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Most of the Malahide article is unsourced and yet you have taken it upon yourself to use Twinkle to auto-remove my posts. Also you have removed accurate edits such as the 42 bus route and local political information. If you are too lazy to actually read my edits I can only assume you don't live in Malahide. The fact that another member of my household vandalised my own edits does not mean they were all worthless. I will be reinstating these. I have worked on the Malahide page before and have lived here for almost 40 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.67.13 (talk) 11:46, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Also I fail to see how your conjecture about the Presbyterian church is beyond reproach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.67.13 (talk) 11:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, I do not know who you are, or to what exactly you refer - I do not have access to "Twinkle" and did not use it to edit anything. Likewise, no idea what is referred to re. Presbyterian church... SeoR (talk) 19:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I did revert a mass of largely unexplained, uncited and in some cases nonsensical edits, keeping one useful one. Still no idea re. "conjectures on Presbyterian church." SeoR (talk) 19:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And, to be fair, I've reviewed the edits, and more than half were poor (bizarre non-names for "housing estate", purported youth coaches, etc.), a couple pure opinion, and most of the rest were unencyclopedic, and uncited - the politics item notably (done well, would add real value). The number of the bus route, OK, and I did retain the deletion of an unwarranted link.  We very much welcome new editors here - Ireland can really use more - but standards are important.  And the mention that there were two editors at the same address, one making bad edits, is not in line with appropriate control of access. SeoR (talk) 20:08, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I played with Malahide United under several of the youth coaches named in that edit which you deleted. I have reinstated the prior edit as a result. I feel these coaches play a small but important role in community relations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.151.76 (talk) 02:15, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Clondalkin
Oooops! Sorry about that SeoR. (Sarah777 20:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC))
 * No worries - as I commented in putting the older bits back, just a slip of the mouse. The main edit was needed! BR, SeoR 10:03, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Irish articles assessments
It seems that the assessment of Irish articles has fallen off the radar but recently Flowerpotman, Sarah777 and I have been doing a little work on this as well as actually classifying articles (actually Sarah has done the most work). Anyway, you are listed as a member of the WikiProject hence this post.


 * The first thing that needs doing is to work on the WikiProject template. Actually there are two templates both of which get recorded by the assessment statistics bot that collects the ratings and creates the listings in the category Category:Ireland articles by quality. The two project templates are Irelandproj listed on the main project page and WikiProject Ireland listed on the assessment page&mdash;the first allows both quality and importance rating as well as nesting but no reviewer comments, while the second allows quality rating and comments but the importance does not seem to work and comments are not included. This needs to be fixed, so we use one that works fully&mdash;can you help?


 * The next thing is to decide if we just let editors assess as they wish or to create some criteria or guidelines for rating the quality and importance of the Irish articles. Personally I am in favour of some guidelines&mdash;some will be easy to decide while others are a little more complex. What do you think?


 * Some projects make lists of articles for assessment while other go after groups of articles by category. What should we do? A mixture of both by using a "To do list"?


 * As of the last assessment statistics bot run on Sunday, August 20, only 1462 articles have been tagged, of which 1156 have been assessed for quality but 660 of these have no importance value.


 * Besides these 1462 there must be hundreds more untagged articles that should be tagged when we get the template issue mentioned above fixed.

We are not bad in our assessments but some projects have all their articles assessed while others are lacking more than we are. We can really use a few active editors to bring assessments to the fore. Please reply on the assessment talk page as to what you can do. Please help out. ww2censor 17:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Dollymount again
Seo; I see your point re Dolly v Bull. Remember what Jimmy Wales said...be bold! Do it. Don't worry about my tender feelings...it I disagree you'll know soon enough!! -:) (Sarah777 21:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC))
 * Hi Sarah, sorry, moving fast, did not note you, or would have called directly. Just a thing re tidiness - would like all on Bull Island incl Dollymount Strand on that article, and Dollymount is just the small enclave (Bull Island is Clontarf / Raheny anyway). Will do, SeoR 16:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Dublin Shopping Centre Articles
Please see Talk:Shopping in Dublin (Sarah777 20:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC))

edit histories
Hi. Normally, of course, the wikipedia doesn't move pages using cutting-and-pasting. When spinning off part of a page's content to start another page, though, sometimes it's necessary; and this is what you quite correctly did when spinning off part of Primate of Ireland to create the pages Archbishop of Dublin (Church of Ireland) and Archbishop of Dublin (Roman Catholic). However, when doing a cut-and-paste move, it is essential to note the fact in the intial edit summary: say something like Pasting in content cut from Primate of Ireland; for earlier edit history see that page. Otherwise we'll have trouble in future when we try to reckon that text's origin. Thanks, Doops | talk 17:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Cameron O'Reilly
A tag has been placed on Cameron O'Reilly requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is notable: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not indicate the subject's importance or significance may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Torchwood Who? (talk) 09:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi
I just wanted to note that I have a background in Irish Literature and I have many critical sources in the area to help reference pages on such topics. I will not join the project, perse, but if you need any help on such topics, you can always drop me a message and I will be glad to help. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Excellent, good to know, thanks! Referencing has become ever more important, especially to secure and retain higher quality ratings (A, GA, FA), and sources are sometimes hard for those of us with certain work patterns.  Will be in touch then, SeoR (talk) 17:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please check out The Drapier's Letters and copyedit if it needs any. I will hunt down the 7 plates that correspond with each letter when I have a chance. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

And Hi!
Seo, what do you make of THIS!! Sarah777 (talk) 16:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Sarah! Sorry, only on briefly over coffee earlier, but action taken :-)  A nice case alright - a housing estate in an invented suburb, legally still part of Kilbarrack.  But Bayside is now established, having had its own identity since the löate 1960's, and being essentially an "island" between DART and coast road.  The only issue which blurs the lines is the occasional attempt to "rebrand" parts of it as Sutton.  So I have created the Bayside category, which has a respectable number of entries anyway.  Perhaps later we should reconsider Sutton Park, Hazelbury Green  and many road / street articles, but until we can review the topic as a whole, I think we can leave them, as long as no one attempts to list them directly as suburbs - they must fit into a larger topic which is properly notable. SeoR (talk) 09:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Laudabiliter
It's not that Adrian was Emglish is unimportant, it just jars where it was and still does to a lesser extent. I particularly didn't like the previous wording that said that he was often remarked to be the only English pope, he was the only English pope, it's an out-and-out fact rather than an opinion.

The problem with this article is finding a neutral wording, for example, Henry II is described as King of England, which fair enough is true. However Queen Victoria was Queen of Ireland, would you find it a bit odd if an article on India referred to Victoria of Ireland? Henry II had an empire in which England was a mere province, he had a lot of different titles he wasn't just King of England.

With reference to Adrian, stressing the point that he was English carries the implication that he issued the bull out of somekind of English nationalism. In fact the bull continued the church's policy of crushing the Celtic church as had happened in England (e.g. Synod of Whitby) and the bull was confirmed by the next incumbent.

Henry II was a foreign invader who occupied England, it is unlikely that Adrian was biased in favour of the Norman empire and far more likely that he was following established Church policy.GordyB (talk) 11:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, I agree that this is an article that can breed problems, and so strong neutrality is essential. Perhaps just having Adrian linked to his article is enough - I have no issue if that seems best.  On the matter of his background and the issuing of the bull, this is more complex historically.  Yes, there was a general policy of erasing the Celtic church's distinct practices, and this existed before and after Adrian - but at least some historians also believe that it was not insignificant that the bull was secured at that moment.  But perhaps we should not dig into such complexities - we will never know the hows and whys.  And indeed, as someone else commented in Talk, and per your comment above, Henry was himself a newcomer, who almost certainly did not think of himself as English (somewhat of a term of abuse among the Normans then and long after) and whom it may well have suited to support general church policies, which also supported his possession of England! SeoR (talk) 10:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Jimmy Barry-Murphy
Hi Seor, well done having a go an importance rating for Jimmy Barry-Murphy (I couldn't decide). However, I was surprised that you also downgraded it to stub-class; are you sure that was what you intended? Sure, there are no refs and it's highly POV, but it seesm to meet thnse start-class criteria in several respects. -- Brown HairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi BHG, yes, it was the intention, though I agree it is fairly firm - but no more, as the total lack of references, where for someone like Barry-Murphy, plenty are available, is a significant failure. I spent more time on the importance, as this is one of the few guys who might be High.  On Class, I have, even having done only in the thousand range, less willing to give Start where an obvious failure to reference is present. SeoR (talk) 17:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

TUSC token 721ba23d8b9c2c79cc5d5a592e8e29ab
I am now proud owner of a TUSC account!

Astral Weeks importance reassessment requested
Noting your recent rating of the album, It's Too Late to Stop Now here as mid-importance (a worthy rating) while also noting that the Them albums The Angry Young Them and The Story of Them received a mid-importance rating, - also worthy - I am still completely confused as to the rating of low-importance for the album, Astral Weeks. If I have somehow offended you when asking for a reassessment from Ww2censor, I hope you can ignore me as only a sometimes awkward editor and consider what the album itself deserves. If for some reason, you really feel like this album that has received so many honours and top rankings is only deserving of a lower rating than the afore-mentioned albums could you please state your reasons on the album's talk page  or turn the re-assessment request over to some other editor who may be more familiar with the album. Thanks for your time. Agadant (talk) 21:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Agadant, no, no grudges held. Assessing a deep topic is always a challenge and the context was welcome.  And I probably did take a more liberal view after.  Should I have?  Not sure - there is a strong case for - with regard to the project for Irish-related articles - and with no comment on importance in music, etc. - almost no song or album being above Low (which still means notable).  What I can do is review sources.  What I will do for now is remove the rating, and anyone, though preferably on the Project, is welcome to rerate.  Ratings are never a personal thing, and review is always open.  All the best, SeoR (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, SeoR - All the best to you also.   Agadant (talk) 11:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The restoration of faith barnstar

 * Thanks! I have my moments here too, though I try to avoid the worst whirlpools of endless debate.  But it is a pleasure to work on an article such as this, which really does open up an important but semi-lost topic.  Thank you for creating it! SeoR (talk) 07:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Dublin tramways
I've grown tired of the BS and am going to try resolve some of the open issue about Dublin's trams .If you are around to help I would appreciate your assistance again.

Thanks Gnevin (talk) 22:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That sounds very good to me. I would also like to close out some matters - including the articles I started to write some time after the main work phase, and did not finish (outside life and other article distractions).  What would be your priorities?  For me, I think the article on the C&HoH, and one on Lucan and Leixlip, but there is also work to do on routes, rolling stock, and more, and of course more photo gathering ...  It will be a pleasure.SeoR (talk) 23:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we should do our best to clear the outstanding issues on the talk pages and then move on to articles like Belfast tramways, Guinness Brewery tramways and others which appear to have a lot of information if a bit of digging is done Gnevin (talk) 22:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Will do, thanksSeoR (talk) 20:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Marsh's Library
Thanks for helping clean up the page. It was my first major edit so I know it was a bit sloppy, your help is appreciated.Mikerooney (talk) 21:26, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Bram Stoker
Hi SeoR, is there any evidence that The Crescent, Stoker's birthplace, is, or ever was, in Clontarf? I'd be interested to see a map of the old Civil Parish of Clontarf, if you know of one available online. Weston Joyce's "Neighbourhood of Dublin" does not provide any real boundary information. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.42.30 (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure. And not so old - though not used much nowadays, and with new areas having formed, and commonly understood district boundaries (as with Fairview) having moved, the civil parishes are still maintained in law. The issue, mind you, is not so much the Civil Parish, as that Clontarf itself was at that time understood to include what is now "the far side" of the Howth Road, all the way through to the Malahide Road, from the old Clontarf Railway Station down through Mount Temple to the Crescent.  A simple piece of online evidence is in the Wikimedia systems -  - and shows the main body of Clontarf, a little corridor of Kilester around the Howth Road, and then a pocket of Clontarf from the eastern side of Maladhide Road to just before the western side of the Howth Road, all the way down to the coast at Fairview.
 * I should say that I see no problem in this - The Crescent was in one area then, and is in another now. While many of Dublin's old areas have remained stable, many new areas and boundaries have also emerged - near the place in question, we have entire new areas "carved" from old, notably Bayside (from Kilbarrack) and Donaghmede (from Baldoyle and Coolock), as well as new "sub-areas" formed within old ones (Dollymount in Clontarf, Edenmore in Raheny).  Marino and Fairview were late-developing areas, but have very clear identities now (a process which I do believe takes time, but they have had this time). SeoR (talk) 09:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

A seems messy, all else possible.
So you said. Don't you think that F (the status quo) is no solution as it merely perpetuates what we would all like to see the back of? The endless arguments? -- Evertype·✆ 10:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That's why I put F, which I have previously backed, to the end of my list. I'm now willing to go for willing (even if clumsy) separation, with Ireland disamb, a short common article, and Ireland (State) and Ireland (Island).  "A" only goes partway, and basically puts a geographic article (the whole island, and its ancient history) and a political item (the state of Ireland) into one article, which I do not believe works. The main thing, however, is to end the monstrous waste of WP producivity, by having one solution - which acknowledging the country's legal name (the RoI-pushing business is a nonsense, and comes almost entirely from outside Ireland, from people who know, I fear, less than they think). SeoR (talk) 15:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Castleknock
I agree with SeoR - the article was a bit stagnant. What a pity that SeoR seems to resent any changes to the article though, as petulant editorial deletions can only ensure to it's on-going status of back-water. Where philosophical differences of opinion in the direction of the article arise, would it not be more gentlemanly to engage in a scholarly debate before pressing the delate button? The original article in it's opening paragraph rightly set out Castleknock's dual role as suburban village and barony. Nothing indicated that either should take precedence. Therefore there is as much merit in listing the location of the barony (and it's constituent townslands) as the village. And what were the grounds for the deletion of those community services so vital to the life of any village (e.g. the GAA, the tennis club)? Are they any less vital than the state body that anomolously remained? I look forward to hearing from SeoR (pronounced "shore"?).Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi Laurel Lodged, and welcome to the small but much-needed band of editors for Ireland. First, despite WP warnings about willingness to have material "mercilessly edited," my apologies for any personal disturbance.  My edits on this article, which I have worked on at various times, were simply house-keeping.  The essential point is that any specific article covers a specific topic, which should be the topic that an ordinary reader would expect (see the policy WP:COMMON) - there is precedence - for the topic a visitor would most likely be seeking if searching "Castleknock".
 * As it happens, it was I (back in 2008) who added the second paragraph (the one on the Barony) to the lead section of the article to ensure that the Barony was not neglected - but that does not mean that the article, which was always on the topic of the modern suburb / village, was now on two topics. If real depth is desireable on the Barony, with its long history, part-feudal, part-administrative, a separate article is needed.  There is nothing philosophical about this - I hope you can agree that writing about the compact area of Castleknock is very different from writing about an area from the county border to the Phoenix Park and beyond Finglas.  And the baronies are now rather academic.
 * I did avoid deletion as much as possible, moving the list of townlands (definitely inappropriate for an article on a suburb) to a footnote - still available for all. As for the links, though, the list was much too long.  I could have justified taking all out, but I chose to leave a couple.  For guidance on this topic, I can offer WP:EL.  Such action involves no judgement on the merits of the linked entities - but if we did not have such a rule, we'd be overwhelmed by links (my Dublin suburb, on the coast, has more than 10 websites for community / school bodies, plus dozens of business ones).
 * On the motivation for deletion, etc., we try to avoid guessing reasons, or describing edits as "petulant" (WP:CIVIL) - it can be hard but WP:AGF.
 * As I think I said yesterday, if a distinct article on the Barony is warranted, I am happy to contribute - I have multiple books of local history, including the recent "Candle" volume specifically on the Barony. Best Regards, SeoR (talk) 12:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC) (I don't know how it is pronounced!).

As a novice Wiki editor, I must bow to your greater knowledge. However, I still feel aggrived at the means by which it was done (i.e. no discussion in advance). But I'll abide by your guidance. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:56, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand. Something similar happened when I first joined Wikipedia - I fixed something I thought obvious (where what I thought was a business park was noted as a suburb), and it was reverted fast.  Some changes will tend to be discussed, but where an item is seen as a straightforward fix, it will tend to be simply done (the motto "be bold"), and this does apply to presentation issues and dual-purposing an article.  It is partly about time, perhaps - I, for example, only get to Wikipedia a modest number of times a month nowadays.  What a good editor will do is at least comment their edits (you do this too, which is great, please keep this habit!) to explain what they did.  I see a foreign IP address editor, also helping with the Castleknock article, has also given (brief) explanations, and this is good to see.  All the best, SeoR (talk) 22:20, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Drumcondra
Same beef as above. I re-ordered to the style or template that has been noted by many commentators as being the clearest of all the city towns series, namely Rathfarnham. I'm sure you'll agree that's a model of order and logic. What's wrong with having that template for all the city towns? As the content builds, the strucxture will become more useful and relevant. It also points to future development paths. Why would you want to undo it? Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi! Sorry, but this time, I have no idea what you mean.  I made one tiny change to Drumcondra: I swapped People to late in the article, which is where it usually is, and put transport near the top.  Otherwise, I did not touch the many edits you made.
 * On the other hand, if you are proposing to make changes to multiple articles, which have been built over a long period, you really must take a discussion on the Ireland discussion page, in fairness to all editors. Many people like the Rathfarnham article style, or parts of it, but that does not give a licence to impose it on all other articles.  For example, I rather like the Rathfarnham article, but am not a fan of the idea of lumping a lot of different sections into "area x today" - I think this just adds a layer to the Table of Contents, without adding any value.
 * It is important in a community with many contributions over time, to interact and consult, and I look forward to a debate on the relevant Ireland pages. Maybe we should have one format for all city area / suburbs - but this needs to be agreed.  All the best, SeoR (talk) 11:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi again, I see you have also worked extensively on Blackrock, etc. - looks well. To see more of the Ireland work, the main project page is at  and the Discussion page attached is where to discuss broader initiatives.


 * OK - noted.

Lochlann Quinn
On the Irish businessmen category, why is he listed under "L" for Lochlann instead of "Q" for Quinn? I note that Michael Smurfit is under "S". Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ignore that - I just found out how to do it.  :-)  Laurel Lodged (talk) 12:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Rivers of County Dublin
Thanks a bunch for volunteering to help with this. If you think the process of creating the new page needs any sort of administrator assistance, please let me know. Otherwise, I'm going to leave you to it. And again, thanks! --RL0919 (talk) 20:44, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You're welcome! I am alread enjoying the task.  I need to source more references, and to study relevant article types - and will try to reach out to past contributors to that page (mostly IP addresses, from multiple countries, but there is at least one named editor).  I plan to make the new article within two weeks.  SeoR (talk) 08:38, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer
Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

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If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 18:31, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Please reply.
I did not realise I could have sent this to you personally, but I would be grateful if you could reply to my query as to why almost all of my edits to the page 'Knocklyon' were changed in some way by you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Knocklyon#Why_were_almost_all_of_my_my_edits_undone.2Fchanged_in_some_way.3F Dylan 23:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Howth Castle
The link I removed and you restored is broken, I fixed the new path and I added this one:. Bye Alfio66 (talk) 13:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

O'Reilly's
I was led to these article by following up on an expired proposed deletion for one of the O'Reilly scholars. I see you've been doing some editing on these articles, among the many other Irish articles you have been doing  good work on. I recognize the importance of this family in Ireland; some of them are certainly appropriate for Wikipedia articles, and I have no quarrel with that. I have, however, found it necessary to do a considerable amount of copyediting, to remove some of what looks like an excessively promotional manner. If you think any of what I removed is really essentially, please restore or discuss it--but I think relatively minor articles without too much repetitive linking back and forth to each other are necessary to avoid the appearance of what is called here a WP:Walled garden, and will in the end make the articles stronger.  DGG ( talk ) 02:55, 21 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi! A belated reply - I had no issues at the time of your note, and having gone into depth now, have none now either.  I've not worked on those articles in some time, but the current state looks fine, so such edits as you made no doubt added value.  On with the project...  SeoR (talk) 21:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Grangegorman
Hi,

Thanks for moving the page Grangegorman Development Agency. I've since created a page for the locality of Grangegorman. However, the talk page for this new page is Talk:Grangegorman Development Agency (i.e. it doesn't seem to have it's own talk page). I'm not sure how to sort this out. If you have time, could you look into it? Thanks FiachraByrne (talk) 00:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It's ok I think I've sorted it out. FiachraByrne (talk) 00:15, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Rivers and streams at logainm.ie
The following are some streams identified at logainm.ie which do not appear in your List of rivers in County Dublin:


 * Bun na dTrí Tr(i)omán         Not a stream but the meeting point of three Dodder headwaters.
 * Eas Caorthainn Doinn          Part of the upper Dodder, or one particular right bank tributary of Mareen's Brook, just upstream from the above.
 * Trumondoo                     Upper Dodder right-bank tributary.


 * Sladnabrumpoge                Former upper Camac left bank tributary, entering the upper Brittas Pond, now dried out.
 * White Stone Slade             Former upper Camac left bank tributary, dried out.
 * Slád na Riaibhche             Small upper Camac left bank tributary, flowing in between the Brittas Ponds.
 * Toberagh (Same as Toberach?)  Right bank Camac tributary, name of upper part, to Crooked Bridge, the lower part is called "Slad Gar na Gree" (Stream of the Neighing of Horses).

There is a page at the website identifying streams, and one identifying rivers. They are not comprehensive but may be of passing interest to watery people. — O'Dea (talk) 17:04, 22 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Many thanks! I understand from following a reference to the current page that the White Stone Slade is dried out, but will have to make enquiries on the others - this will be most interesting in itself.  All best, SeoR (talk) 12:06, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Lord Dunsany
Category:Lord Dunsany, which you created, has been nominated for discussion. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:09, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

New editor
Hi SeoR. I notice that you and a new editor have similar content interests. I've been trying to guide him/her on procedural issues on the project, but really don't have the 'local knowledge' of either of you. Since it appears you will be coming across each other on a regular basis, perhaps you might drop them a line. They seem bona fide, but may be a little stunned after a recent revert of mine. Would you mind making contact with them on their TP. I think they may be a bit intimidated and even find the place a bit hostile. Best. RashersTierney (talk) 10:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi! Will do. I think I "bumped into" them on Balgriffin a day or two back, and today Clongriffin, and indeed on the latter they seem to have made hundreds of edits - great industry but they have been partly reverted, by 2-3 other editors also (in fact I made only small edits, but they may feel a bit overwhelmed indeed).  Clongriffin seems to draw an odd amount of attention at times, perhaps from people who live there.  I am a long-term Northsider, and know the history, and would be happy to help.  Good to have someone new.  Thanks and best regards, SeoR (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And thank you. Best wishes. RashersTierney (talk) 10:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Welcome! I have now looked more deeply, and with good intent, there have been material factual errors such as elevating a small church to an abbey, and confusing the two very different areas of Bayside (with old church) and Baldoyle, and a lack of edit comments, so I will touch on these gently, but encouragingly - the energy displayed is impressive (over 500 edits in under a week, I think). SeoR (talk) 11:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello SeoR (& Rashers), I am Ainenin and I thank you for the messages that you left me. Yes, I am new to Wiki, having signed up only last week. I very much appreciate your help.

To introduce myself, I am female, grew up in North East Dublin, and came to the site for educational purposes. My intention has been to create a Bayside Bay site but first I have to rise to the challenge of learning the technicalities of the Wiki system.

Also, as you both know, I have been abused for updating and further opening the Clongriffin site.

I admit that I arrived in almost complete ignorance. Upon my arrival, the Clongriffin site was out of date by at least six months, it was full of speculation and subjective opinion, vastly un-referenced, and looked more like a blog than a Wiki site. It seemed to be abandoned and I thought it was as good as any other place to cut my teeth, so I proceeded to clean it up. (I now live in Clongriffin and my neighbour gave me a hand setting up on Wiki. I currently have neighbours who are from the outside Dublin and/or Ireland. Most of them don't even know Grange Abbey exists or that they can walk out to the estuary from the train station so I thought it would be a nice way to thank them for their help by posting that sort of info first.)

I am sorry that I upset people. Rashers has kindly sent me instructions for writing an open apology. I have not done that yet because I have been busy the last few days and to be honest, I was so upset by the nastiness that I actually lost sleep. There are clearly angry and ignorant people lurking about on the Clongriffin site. I am not interested in fighting blindly on the internet.

To clarify, I don't know if you can tell what I was up to step-by-step, but essentially I cleaned up the civic information, updated the facilities etc, and then grappled with extensive tagging and referencing in the natural geographic and history section. As I said, while I was working away, I thought I was in an empty, abandoned space. I had no idea that I was being watched and criticised. If I had known that (a) I probably would have worked more offline, (b) I would have introduced myself properly so as not to offend those who had opened the site before me, and (c) had I known that Wiki harbours ignorami, I wouldn't have bothered because I don't appreciate being slagged off and abused, especially when my intentions are altruistic.

RashersTierny thankfully has been very kind and generous. I thought he approached me because I triggered a need for some technical assistance but I actually now understand that is a gentleperson. I am most grateful.

Following the Wiki abuse that I took, I have questioned if I should carry on or not. But this is not a vanity project. I am an educator and I still want the children to learn about the estuary, the bay, the local rivers, streams, wells, birds, nature, etc, and I find now that I can’t resist but want to fill in the history sections for them too.

Ultimately, I cannot go on without further assistance. I can’t yet open new information pages, comment on what I’ve done, or bear being abused on-line. I can quickly learn the technicalities but I’m afraid that I might never be able to suffer fools gladly.

Opening Wiki Pages: If either or both of you are interested, I would very much appreciate if either of you would open Bayside Bay, Bayside Estuary and Grange Abbey pages for me, or should I say, the local children and curious or interested adults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_abbeys_and_priories_in_Ireland#County_Dublin

Polite Notices: I admit that I got completely distracted by Grange Abbey, and then I got carried away with St Samson. I have updated the history on Balgriffin and also added a small bit of info and some references to the Samson of Dol site. I would like to let the original authors know that my intentions are respectful and that my additions are there to enhance the site. I need to learn how to do that.

Clongriffin Open Page: Even though they didn’t have to barge in, kicking sand around and being so rude and mean about the work that I put in (which took hours of my time), in self defence I referenced nearly every sentence I wrote, tagging extensively as I went along. I stress that I thought I was working quietly in a forgotten corner or else I would have fully referenced every sentence straight away.

I am sorry that I upset people … Some points they made had some merit but I remind you that I simply hadn’t finished the work.

For example, Clongriffin is not a town, but it is a residential area in its own right. I’ve got the referencing and can apply it.

Clongriffin is no more ‘North Donaghmede’ than it is ‘South Portmarnock’. This is ridiculous inverted snobbery. I might not have learned the technicalities of Wiki yet, but I do know academics and I have the references for this too.

Wiki does not approve of individuals using the site as a blog. All information should be tagged and referenced appropriately. I can do that if you like but if it results in other locals hurling insults at me ... Would either of you like to discuss this further?

Historical Sites/Grange Abbey: As a local with a great interest in early medieval history, I thought I clearly emphasised that Grange Abbey was more of a granary than an actual Abbey.

Times have changed. Nowadays, some of us are more impressed by fantastic architectural delights such as the new Father Collins Park and Dundrum Shopping Centre than we are by substance and sound engineering. Nevertheless, the Grange monastic site was a priory and of profound importance. Besides the fact that it deserves to be acknowledged as much as, let’s say, Kylmore Abbey. (Even the holiest among us have to eat.) I wanted to go further into this Abbey/granary issue but withou even reading the references that I posted, they are fiddling with the information to suit themselves. Early medieval history is approximately 1500 years old; they used lots of old French and Latin then. We are thinking an Abbey has to be something like Tintern Abbey. They were thinking of a simple, modest building that was consecrated by their Abbe. I can go into this in much greater detail if you like.

Malahide and Sutton chapels are also named Abbeys. [I actually think this is because St Samson was an Abbot when he arrived in Ireland with two Irish monks to visit Howth. He was a noble of Irish descent so it wasn’t long before he was given some land to start his own settlement. I think the local ‘Abbeys’ got their names because they were associated with the Welsh Abbe. I am reading on that and looking for references to back me up.]

It seems that there are thugs on site who think I am trying to "dolly" things up. I am not trying to gild the lily but it at the same time, I don't want to overlook such a significant site. It deserves better treatment. Personally, I believe it should be restored. King Henry VIII did huge damage when he invaded. It is amazing that the original chapel still stands.

Perhaps by the time you saw it, someone had gone in and fiddled it. (I noticed that some wording was changed, clearly before actually reading the references.)

Nevertheless, I would like to further expand. In the 11th century, Grange Abbey was founded, but that does not clarify the age of the site. I was planning on expanding that. How do you feel about this? Am I supposed to be asking for permission? I’d like to know, thank you. If SeoR is interested in this area, I’d be very happy to discuss it further.

Also, I’d like to fill in the history of Donaghmede, St Donagh’s well and river (which mark Donaghmede, not Donaghmede-South), his infamous apiaries and mead.

However, if the ‘North/South’ Donaghmede brigade want to shout me down and abuse them I’ll either want to turn off my computer and carry on my work elsewhere. Like I said, I don’t want to be arguing with anyone so perhaps it is best to leave well enough alone.

How do either of you, especially SeoR, feel about this?

If you are interested in the educational side of things, then I would be entirely grateful to you for technical assistance and some etiquette training so that I don’t offend anyone else.

Thank you both for having so kindly offered me assistance and taking the time to read my message(s). I hope I hear from you again.

I have to work now but I can check at night time if any messages came in from either of you Ainenim (talk) 11:16, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

PS: I have an annoying habit of calling BALDOYLE BAY Bayside Bay. I am sorry about that too. It was clearly me who wrote Bayside and maybe someone became insulted and (instead of just changing the word), tore the whole paragraph out. Nevertheless, my mind was on language. Mon or muin or mona is used in placenames to indicate bogs, bogginess, or wetlands. I should have constructed the paragraph better. I think I wrote it in the very small hour of the morning when I should have been sleeping! Nevermind. Ainenim (talk) 12:07, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Clongriffin
Hello SeoR,

I finally wrote out a message for the Clongriffin site. My stomach was in knots doing it but it is posted now.

I hope I didn't come across as being too stern. Nevertheless, I really felt that I had to stand up for myself and what is right, rather than putting my tail between my legs and hiding under the couch.

I appreciate the comments that you made on the site.

With kind regards & many thanks, Ainenim 11:22, 28 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ainenim (talk • contribs)


 * Hello Ainenim,
 * Sorry, offline most of last 1.5 days. Great re. the message - and I was going to say not to be too apologetic, but to explain.  I will have a look.  Your message appeared three times, so I have sorted that, and I will now also continue my reply to your previous message on your Talk. All best, SeoR (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

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Category red links
My logic behind this edit was for the very specific reason that categories should not be left as red links per the WP:REDNOT guideline - if you think that an article should be in a category, you should create the category if it doesn't exist. Creating the category forces you to have a look around the category hierarchy and allows you to pick up on style differences like in/of as well. Also, the convention in category space is that the ROI is generally (not 100% admittedly) referred to as simply "Ireland" rather than ROI except where it's specifically being contrasted with NI - short category names are always good. I do normally create categories like this if they look plausible - I've created >20k categories - but I'll play the WP:REDNOT card if it's been a long day.... Le Deluge (talk) 10:35, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi! I must apologise, this was me doing an edit in transit, after a long day too, and I made a mistake in the name - it should have been National Museums *of* Ireland, not National Museums in Ireland, so the redlink was inadvertent, and I failed to do my preview and catch it.  Sorry!  I do understand that while redlinks can be ok selectively for articles, to provoke something needed, for example, they are not appropriate for categories.  I was surprised myself to see an RoI category, but I guess its because for this specific category, Northern Ireland has its own distinct national museum system.  Thanks, and best of luck with the next few k of categories, SeoR (talk) 21:31, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Waterford Crystal
I have to agree with your summery that there is little of substance for the most important period of the company. I do have a copy of Brian Havel's book, though he makes some errors, such as mixing up my grandfather, A director of IGB, and my father, who became technical director of Waterford. Also there is no index, so finding specific topics is not easy and it is quite sometime since I read it. As you see Ivana Bacik's grandfather was involved in the early days, as was the MD Noel Griffin and other prominent businessmen of the time. I met most of them over the years but we actually need reliably sourced material to expand the article. ww2censor (talk) 13:47, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yes, the article does little justice to the vibrant operation that was; there's more detail on the only-remotely connected predecessor works.  When I think what that factory was like, and the visitor centre, and what it meant as part of Waterford, the greater "Irish brand," the world of trophies, just for example, and even as part of the ephemeral "O'Reilly empire." An example of an article written-up from the wrong perspective (I've edited it too in the distant past, but I think all those years ago I was sure someone would be back with, e.g. the book).  Sounds like we need someone with a bit of time, and access to good materials.  As ever with Team WP Ireland, a challenge of numbers; as far as I see right now, the core group on Irish articles is smaller than 20, with much time just taken up with keeping on top of admin and essential anti-vandal and copyedit work.  Fascinating re. your own links; that small world again. SeoR (talk) 14:21, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Ireland is really quite a small place. As a young chap, I would travel down from Dublin when my grandfather had to go there for occasional board meetings when I might be given a grand tour and around the blowing stations one of the guys would do some fancy show-off glass blowing for the technical director's son!! Unfortunately there are few written sources, online has very little and WP:OR is not allowed. ww2censor (talk) 11:07, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I came across this source but will look for more and post them here for the time being. BTW, are you in Dublin and do you have access to the NLI or Gilbert Library? Another is Irish Glass that covers the pre-1920 period in some detail. ww2censor (talk) 10:15, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Many thanks! I will try to take some time to study.  I travel a good deal, but I do have occasional chances to visit the NLI or the Gilbert, and can try some digging of my own.  The challenge is that it was a modern operation, so no big trail of scholarly works. but there is a fair amount in e.g. the Irish Times archives.  Those sound like fascinating memories, thanks for sharing. SeoR (talk) 21:47, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Ireland Project assessments
I see you have joined the club of assessors. When you are rating article, and there are other unassessed project banners, you should add the class rating to them too at the same level. If it's a Start-class article it is so for all projects and may alert editors from those projects to give it an importance rating. BHG has found some 15,000 unassessed articles that now need importance and class rating, so anything you can do to reduce that is appreciated. I presume you're familiar with this table which allows you to get a list of the rating of article you might like to work on. If you are not using this rating aid User:Kephir/gadgets/rater you should do so as it makes rating very easy. The only problem I have discovered with it is that for the Ireland Project the "Photo" link does not function correctly: instead add an "image-needed" field with a "yes" for articles that could do with an image. Good luck and thanks. ww2censor (talk) 14:28, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi, yes, getting back in that saddle lately. It was actually something I did back in my early project days, when the Ireland Project article count was taken from just thousands (or less) to some early landmarks (current dizzy heights were scaled when I was largely on Young-Family Wikibreak).  I also remember some debates (with yourself, Flowerpotman and others) about the relevant potential populations for Top and High, and so on.  I noticed that the wonderfully clear chart was suddenly rising past 5k articles needing assessment, and dived in.  I am indeed using the table, and have so far worked back from Z to U.  The tool sounds great, as the process is a bit manual for now; I will go study at once.  And thanks for the hint re. other projects, I was not sure of the protocol there, but now that you mention it, it makes sense that Stub and Start, at least, should be universal.  On with U then,, thanks for the good wishes, SeoR (talk) 19:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * BTW, another page you might like to add to your watchlist and keep an eye on is User:AlexNewArtBot/IrelandSearchResult. ww2censor (talk) 21:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, will certainly make use of that. Just back after a 4-day break, ready for more...SeoR (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi Seo...I reverted one of your assessments where you changed "low" importance to NA. I see you've several othithers also. Why? Is it something to do with "class=redirect"? Regards Sarah777 (talk) 22:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi Sarah, long time no speak, though I see you've powered ahead over the years (I was on young-family semi-break); the team has done so much good work (I remember when the big Assess push started). Yes, I took on part of the backlog of unassessed, and on the way, after clearing most of T-Z in one stack, noticed a small number of anomalies.  Redirects are among these - they are not articles, and so should not have importance ratings.  I was going to put a query, on the board, or to censor777, as there would also be the option to take the Project flag off altogether.  But I think the best way is to keep them on watch, just Class=redirect, and if some day there is need to "bring back" a full article, then we can rate that article.  SeoR (talk) 07:56, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
 * As ever, I am open to other perspectives. By default, most such cases would be low if they were articles (as otherwise they would not have qualified for Merge - I think of the ones I saw, maybe two dozen, all had once been articles).  But I think the case for mere signposts, like redirects or disambiguations, not having importance ratings is clear.  Warm regards, SeoR (talk) 07:59, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Waterford Glass again
Howdy, I just ordered an used copy of Waterford: An Irish Art from the US and hope to get it in a week or so. I'll see how useful it might be and if so will add some more to the article. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 10:13, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hej! Great news. I've concentrated on assessments the last month and more, over 1k done, still (just) over 14k to go, but great to have substantive article work too. Ciao, SeoR (talk) 10:49, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Mahr citations
Hi SeoR, Thanks for checking my changes. I had removed "he recruited roughly 23 Germans" because it does not say where that happened. Was it for the Ortsgruppe? It was not for the museum. The links to the NSDP-AO (isn't it NSDAP-AO?) were removed because they are dead, both the current one and the one from the WayBack machine. A link is also not really required because it is in the Mullins book. Cheers, Strasburger (talk) 07:04, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi! First, thanks for working on this.  Mahr was a big figure in a neglected corner of Irish cultural life, and whatever he was in some dimensions, he needs a better article.  On the citation, I don't like to just delete, but replace, but I take your point.  But then I think we must have another source beyond Mullins (I recall skimming the book, it seemed carefully and sympathetically writte, but there are also newspaper and academic articles, for example.  Speaking of, the 23 recruits rings a bell, but certainly does need citation.  I shall go have a look.SeoR (talk) 10:23, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I see the article evolved further, will revisit as I meant to find and apply more citations.SeoR (talk) 22:30, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

O'Reilly Foundation
I couldnt work out where it was based. Assistance appreciated. Rathfelder (talk) 20:09, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Not at all, happy to help. I will look at adding some wording with a citation.SeoR (talk) 22:31, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Capitulation of Dixsmuide
Thanks for taking a look - what needs to be expanded to make it a B? Robinvp11 (talk) 14:06, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry for late comment, I've had RL and access issues. And sure.  I felt it was fine on criteria #1 and #3-6, though an illustration of a more central figure would help, and of course there is always room for more referencing - but on #2 (appropriate cover and depth), which is perhaps the most important measure, I felt the coverage of the siege itself was very brief, most of the article is about before and after.  Fine for a C, but B, at least from the way we apply the assessments in WP Ireland.  I will revisit the article and see if I can tweak it a little, and I have no issues if someone else would like to review.SeoR (talk) 22:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I trust your judgement but my problem is the siege itself is by far the least interesting part of it; I like chasing down obscure references, so I spent a lot of time but there's very little. Dixsmuide is a small place (as I said, only important because of its location); effectively, the French turned up and two days later, the garrison surrendered. William's reaction was the same as yours ie That's it? :) It's more interesting as a sign of the general war weariness prevailing by then. Robinvp11 (talk) 10:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Good point, thanks! And I understood better once I started reading the 3-volume William, and other sources, yesterday evening.  Most interesting, and yes, I guess everyone, including the luckless Ellenberg, were getting tired.  I will reconsider the rating then, relative to available / potential material, as there is an element of "what is possible" in ratings. SeoR (talk) 11:31, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Inspired by this, I've updated the article - shows the value of reviewing this stuff :).

Robinvp11 (talk) 16:54, 24 September 2018 (UTC)


 * It's great - the extra detail does flesh it all out nicely, including the siege / defence tactics but also the context and aftermath. A pleasure to read, and delighted to have helped inspire. SeoR (talk) 21:10, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

William Ponsonby, 1st Baron Ponsonby - your reassessment
Perhaps you missed BHG's comment justifying the high-importance rating. I tend to agree with her. ww2censor (talk) 10:39, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi ww2censor, I saw the comment, found no details (the mentioned discussions being consigned to the recycle bin of history, I guess), but would be very slow to question any assessment by BHG, who must be one of the most experienced editors In all WP, and with deep knowledge on Ireland. However, having read around the topic myself (no claims to expertise, mind!), I thought a modest downgrade still seemed appropriate; Ponsonby played a major role, but was far from the only player, and all the key figures in the events around the Act of Union cannot be High prio for Ireland (High may be a little overweight in places, but is also missing some topics, and I think has a slight tendency to overweight on individuals).  Of course I put a lot on your assessment too, so I'll roll this back for now - it was one of 12-15 reassessments, and we've so much else to do (I think I've passed reviews of over 2800 unassessed / partly-assessed items, but still over 12000 to go); there'll be more time for debates on subtleties maybe next year...SeoR (talk) 11:36, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You can always drop BHG a note and see what she thinks. Indeed there are many unassessed article to do and you are doing a great job. I've been rather occupied so have not been doing very many. ww2censor (talk) 22:36, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the kind words. Then I did one more day and went offline for two, and only a little today, but back full bore tomorrow. For now a few old articles of occasional contention to check. Always interesting to see what else happens at one’s favourite cafe.SeoR (talk) 20:26, 12 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And thanks for the format fix on the Talk page, ww2censor- a funny error to have had on the page, but I rarely come here unless there is something live. Too weary last night to get far, especially with one article (a BLP one) which needs care, but I did look at progress, and set myself a goal to get Assessments Needed down below 11500 this month. Did that Waterford Crystal book ever appear, by the by?SeoR (talk) 10:40, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I noticed the odd page formatting, wondered if I could fix it and discovered all it needed was to close the "tt" tag with a forward slash. Indeed the Waterford book did arrive but we were in Paris, I had a load of carpentry to do, then I was in Ireland for a few days for my aunt's 90th, then back to France and have had, and still have, visitors, plus it been up to 36º on several days, so I've not much motivation for anything requiring anything above minimal concentration. ww2censor (talk) 14:09, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I did sort of notice it, but I think I put it down to some new function. I've been concentrating on trying to do a certain amount of assessment, and at least every 2nd or 3rd day, checking the Watchlist. Different reasons, much of it work, but similar results to yourself, need to keep focused. For some assessments I do a quick Google or similar to check depth / topic potential, but at least with, e.g. mass Stub assessments, a lot of it can be done without 120% concentration.  Best of luck with the heat, trust no fires about. Waterford might fill some quieter autumn evening!SeoR (talk) 14:19, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And we got down below 11500, though nearly didn’t, after a couple of hundred new cases, notably on greyhounds, arrived. Would be nice to get below 10k for end September... Let’s see.SeoR (talk) 06:06, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a good aim, so I'll try to help out but we have had, and will still have, some visitors. ww2censor (talk) 11:40, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that; I see some assessments. I've been in a heavy work period myself, but managed a modest amount, and 10k is still, just about, possible.  I've also been blocked from this page on my corporate PC for some odd reason, hence the late update.  By the by, one assessment, the Health Research Board in Ireland, puzzled me a bit - a Top article for WP Ireland?  I would be thinking more the HSE only at that level, major units and hospitals Mid-High, but that's just me.  Anyway, see you round the 11k remaining to go...SeoR (talk) 22:29, 13 September 2018 (UTC)
 * And now a third day when the links on the Assessment matrix don’t work.SeoR (talk) 06:55, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * And just to mark it somewhere, over the last 12 hours, we finally got below 10k unassessed articles (stub, start and fully unassessed), hurrah! SeoR (talk) 01:23, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Luka Jović
Please beware of the persistent attempt to remove "Benfica B" from Luka Jović's infobox; that's the reason why the article is locked. SLBedit (talk) 00:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks SLBedit! I misunderstood the situation, and will be extra careful of that in future - and, as done this morning, will consider fact checks on subtle football article changes.SeoR (talk) 11:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Amy Siskind edit reverted
Hello SeoR! I was wondering why my edit of the Amy Siskind article was reverted. You give as a reason "uncited, unencyclopedic bracketed comment". Yet I copied the comment directly out of the Wiki[EN] article about "Mamaroneck, New York". The relevance of my edit lies in the fact that the place of residence is a defining aspect of a person's social class, which itself is a factor in the person's views and activities. I'd be happy to hear your opinion on the matter, and I'd like to ask for the reinsertion of my contribution. Best regards, FlugHund_SN2


 * Hello FlugHund SN2, and thanks for the attention, and for bringing it up for discussion. Taking a point about Mamaroneck first: the fact that this (possible) aspect of the area is mentioned in the place's article is not in itself significant - it might or might not belong there, and it might or might not be well-cited there, but whichever way, that does not mean it should be explicitly brought up in another article - if a reader wants to know more about this locale, they can follow the link to that article. And remember the Wikipedia does not self-cite, we seek outside sources.

However, the main point is that it really is not obviously relevant to this (short) biographic article. We do not, in general, mention that ABC is from area XYZ which happens to be broadly affluent, or poor, unless there is a clear reason. It could be, and often is, the case, that while a person lives in an area which is broadly of a particular type, they personally live in a sub-area which is of a different nature. And even if the area is of a certain "class" this may have nothing to do with why they live there, and say nothing about them. Now of course sometimes there might be a link - but without clear evidence, inclusion of such a point is speculative, and may be read as implying something which is not true. I'm afraid many would dispute that the place of residence is a *defining* aspect of social class, and social class is itself a complex construct. And assigning a social class label to a person requires really solid citation, and even then, for the large broadly-defined population sectors of most countries, could be controversial. In a long bio, there might be room to develop such a point, but Ms Siskind's is 12 lines of text, so not at that scale, and there are probably many other points that would be more significant to add first.

So in this case, the test is "what does the possibility that Mamaroneck as a whole may have a certain character factually tell us about Ms Siskind?" and the answer is, without solid materials to go further, "nothing." That means there is no encyclopedic reason to include it. That's before we weigh in whether anyone might infer anything else, or go deeper into Biography of Living Persons guidelines.

I hope this helps. Should you really feel there is a compelling reason to include this point, and after reading similar articles, you can see grounds, I would suggest opening a point on the article's Talk page. Best of luck in editing, SeoR (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank very much for your extensive and clarifying answer! I'll keep learning... Cheers! FlugHund SN2 (talk) 12:59, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

DOTY
Hey, no problems with that at all - I would have missed it myself if I wasn't watching the article. Carry on regardless! Deb (talk) 09:56, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

m:User:COIBot/XWiki/360gradkamera.de
Hi. Just to point to you that there has been an IP address that is being a little bit opportunistic with reference spam. I have removed it from some articles as it smells of CoI, though if you think that it is truly needed, please add it back. — billinghurst  sDrewth  02:57, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, I will keep an eye on that, and no, no re-add, if other eyes see value, I defer to that.SeoR (talk) 09:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Pending edit to Arizona
My 'Pending edit' was reverted (here). This was intended to correct the reference error message generated by my previous edit: More than one of. Note that my "fix" is more of a workaround -- if you can think of proper way to fix the error message, please do. . —2606:A000:1126:28D:3873:46A8:372F:FD65 (talk) 08:22, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, understood, but the workaround breaks the template syntax, so let me see if I can find another way, like a shared use of one reference.SeoR (talk) 08:37, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay. —2606:A000:1126:28D:3873:46A8:372F:FD65 (talk) 08:38, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland
Surely it is not correct to state that the entity described as the 'Republic of Ireland' (the former 'Irish Free State' and now 'Ireland') is a 'country', and that it would be more accurate to define it as a 'state'? Nationality is based on the country in which one is born, and in my case I was born in Ireland (in the city of Londonderry), and according to the Belfast Agreement I am entitled to Irish and /or British citizenship.

However, if I had been born in the country called Scotland, I would be of Scottish nationality and be entitled to claim British citizenship; but given that I was born in a country called Ireland, I am of Irish nationality and thus can claim both Irish and British citizenship! Although I was born in the political entity called 'Northern Ireland', and given that no such thing as 'Northern Ireland nationality' exists, one has no basis for claiming Northern Ireland nationality or for that matter, the right to self-determination for this part of the UK! Of course, my Scottish counterparts, given that the country of Scotland confers the right of nationality on those born within its boundry, have the right to self determination (although they have not chosen to exercise this right in recent times).

The Belfast Agreement under the heading 'Constitutional Issues' may be helpful in explaining this matter in more detail. The following link can be followed if one so desires; https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf Ériugena (talk) 17:36, 28 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the note. The main issue in this case is that, as noted in the editable text, this section of this article has achieved its current form after a great deal of sometimes difficult editing, and is pretty stable - and as a community, we ask that changes are first discussed on the Talk page. As to the specific point, there is no question, as a matter of either common usage or of law, that Ireland is all of a country (the term most people would use if asked for their first perception), a sovereign state, and so also a state. "Country" and "sovereign state" are both used in the opening paragraph, and both are better fits than the "State (polity)" article.  I am familiar with the Belfast Agreement, but I think we would find that it - carefully, I am sure - avoids words like "country" and "state" altogether - but anyway, how we mention Ireland is more about common usage than legal technicality.  The special provisions for citizenship are an interesting point, discussed in various Wikipedia articles, and relate also to yet another concept, that of the Irish nation.  Anyway, all edits are welcome, and no one owns any article, so should you wish to make an edit to that article lede, please simply take a discussion on the article's Talk page; I am sure fellow editors will engage.  Very best,SeoR (talk) 23:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

 * Many thanks, I appreciate that. I try to keep it level-headed and polite to all, and am happy when that comes across.SeoR (talk) 09:57, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It does! Britishfinance (talk) 15:52, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

 * Many thanks, I wanted to extend my contribution and find this area satisfying, and a constant challenge.SeoR (talk) 17:41, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Photo
Hello, i just wanted to ask why you approved this edit, since the IP doesn't won't state a reason for why there photo is better. thanks --SacredDragonX (talk) 19:50, 22 August 2019 (UTC) --SacredDragonX (talk) 08:10, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * --- Hello, and sorry for the delayed reply, I've been working mostly on my mobile for some days. Good to meet you (and have I seen you in Pending Changes work too?). Anyway, the answer is simple - Pending Changes review / approval / rejection is not intended to secure the "best" content - it is merely a screening process to control vandalism and obvious breaches of policy, most notably around BLP ("The purpose of reviewing is to catch and filter out obvious vandalism and obviously inappropriate edits").  If you look at the log, for example, you may see some comments relating to this.  So with the photo, all that was required was that it was not a joke or wildly inappropriate, and it passed - but anyone is free to revert the change as a normal edit, and improve the article in the normal way.  Otherwise Pending Changes would become some kind of content arbitration.  Hope this helps, regards, SeoR (talk) 18:06, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Lady Elizabeth Echlin
Hello! Your submission of Lady Elizabeth Echlin at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Nsk92 (talk) 11:32, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and will address the comments there.SeoR (talk) 12:31, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Green Eggs and Ham
Is there any proof that this TV show will release on the 23rd? It says that you approved the changes, so I thought you would know.VGPCVGCP (talk) 00:32, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi. As it happens, I did a quick search and yes, there were multiple sources mentioning this date. But the role of the approving editors is not to fact check - though we often do so as an extra help - but to make sure editors have followed policy - in that respect, I should probably have tagged the edit to require the submitting editor (or any other) to submit a reference - I would normally do this, so thank you for calling this out. I will do this now.SeoR (talk) 06:38, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks again - conducting a check as an ordinary editor, I could not find *quality* backing for that date, so I have removed it.SeoR (talk) 07:16, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Heads of Irish Universities
Hi, there have been a lot of proposed changes to categories for heads of universities in the last few weeks, so I have created some more categories for Irish universities in response. I am not an expert on Irish universities, so any additions or corrections are welcome. For example, there are probably Irish colleges with notable heads that I am not aware of. TSventon (talk) 16:06, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I think the changes are good, and will be happy to contribute. I think a key question will be how to deal with Regional Technical Colleges / Institutes of Technology.SeoR (talk) 17:50, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I have set up a category for the current Institutes of Technology, but there don't seem to be many academics or heads with articles. I see you have set up a category for Chancellors of the University of Limerick. Do all Irish universities have chancellors and is this a largely ceremonial position as in the UK? If so there should probably be a Category:Chancellors by university in Ireland. TSventon (talk) 11:17, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Hello again, and yes, you are exactly correct, Irish universities (but not generally the colleges) have ceremonial chancellors. Some also chair the governing authorities / bodies (DCU and UL, for example), some don't. As it happens, I followed the same logic, and gave them a separate sub-category, as they should not be confused with the executive heads (President in most cases, Provost for TCD), but I see I may need to tweak the name slightly. You captured the universities well - the newest, a merger of three ITs, TU Dublin, does not yet have a leader with an article - but the next to come, RCSI (to be elevated soon), has its leaders well-logged.  As for the ITs (and the predecessor RTCs) + IADT, and more, indeed, not so many of their leaders seem to have reached article status yet.SeoR (talk) 11:24, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I have added Category:Chancellors by university (which is subject to a deletion discussion) to Category:Chancellors of universities in Ireland. Can I assume all chancellors belong in the category? Could you add the list of Chancellors of Limerick to the university article? Also I have expanded NIHE Dublin to the National Institute for Higher Education (NIHE) in Category:Presidents of Dublin City University. I think it is helpful to explain acronyms for people who are not familiar with them. TSventon (talk) 12:07, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks great! And yes, no chancellors in the Irish system hold substantive executive authority, so all can go there. Thanks re. NIHE. And yes, I have started with UL by adding a section (oddly missing) on the Governing Authority, and the role of chancellor, and will follow by adding a name list.SeoR (talk) 12:11, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks to us the heads category looks a lot better. Possibly heads of Northern Irish universities needs to be a subcategory.
 * Looking at alumni, I am confused by Category:Alumni of St Patrick's College, Maynooth and Category:Alumni of Maynooth University. Do you think it would be possible to clarify the difference, or would it be better to merge them? Pinging as she created the MU category. TSventon (talk) 13:43, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I can help with that, as I was there. Maynooth began as a seminary and later more general private college, so Alumni of St Patrick's College, Maynooth (aka Maynooth College) refers to graduates from that operation. In the late 20th century, the secular part became the dominant element, and was eventually carved out into National University of Ireland, Maynooth (NUIM) - still the legal name - which was in turn rebranded as Maynooth University a few years ago. The Alumni of MU is for alumni *only* of the NUIM / MU part since separation. Some people have advocated looking back before the split, and somehow classifying historic graduates, but that would make no sense - Maynooth College, whether a College of the NUI, or acting as a Pontifical University, was a unified operation.  So I believe the two categories are indeed needed. Hope that helps.SeoR (talk) 13:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * @TSventon, I agree with SeoR that merger would be inappropriate. However, some clarification in the header text in the categories might be helpful. --  Brown HairedGirl  (talk) • (contribs) 14:15, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * @BrownHairedGirl, I had read about the history, so perhaps I should not have asked about merger. As I told SeoR, I am not an expert on Irish universities. I think clarification would be helpful: the first line of the St Patrick's introduction could say Alumni of MU up to 1997 and the MU introduction could say Alumni of MU after 1997. There are currently only three members of the MU alumni category: John Fanning (writer) seems to have graduated before 1997 and I couldn't tell when Dan Harvey (Irish Army officer) graduated. TSventon (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Time to loop back but one closing comment - the NUI directly has no students, nor exclusively NUI alumni. Will look into Northern Ireland aspect...SeoR (talk) 05:03, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help, that is probably enough questions for now. I will tweak the MU descriptions to say they relate to academics and alumni after 1997. TSventon (talk) 11:31, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Copying within Wikipedia requires attribution
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Dublin City University into University of Limerick. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g.,. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted copied template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. If you are the sole author of the prose that was copied, attribution is not required. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:13, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you Diannaa 🍁 (talk). I did take the model of a few sentences from the DCU article, adapted them, and then created a previously missing section in the UL article, and I did not realise that this required special action; I will remember for any future case. I had worked on that DCU text before but doubt I was the only one, so I take the point. Thank you - and thanks for previous action on an e-mailed request; I did not like to intrude by replying to an opened address.SeoR (talk) 18:43, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

 * Many thanks   &#9749;  Antiqueight, much appreciated. At this time, given the needs of family and work, I find I can best help with reviews, edits and classification, albeit I occasionally manage enough time to write a new article; I am delighted to read and support new articles, and article improvements, from fellow contributors such as yourself. Very best,SeoR (talk) 09:02, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Richard Dawkins
I don't understand your edit note where you reverted my reversion? Dawkins is opposed to religion, full stop. If category:Critics of Islam is to stand, then we have to add categories for Critics of Christianity, Critics of Buddhism, Critics of Shinto, Critics of Hinduismm,  Sikhism, Jainism, Wicca, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism  and so on ad infinitum. Is that sensible? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:26, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
 * , thank you! As my comment suggests, I agree with the removal of these categories, and indeed Mr Dawkins' article need further de-categiorisation. I somehow managed to hit the wrong buttons, a risk of editing while travelling, and have since undone my edit. Your point is absolutely valid.SeoR (talk) 08:02, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Martin Crowe
Thanks for looking at this Martin Crowe. Things I send to AfC normally take 8+ weeks so I'd probably eyeball them carefully on the way ... I've two queued that way currently ... this took about 8 minutes or something! Meanwhile if you have a picture of the Bradogue River ... my man W.M. has for once failed me and he just been doing the Royal .... just goto the Viking Longboat Statue at low tide and get a snap of the grills on the opposite bank ideally with water coming out! Djm-leighpark (talk) 20:34, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Djm-leighpark, good to hear from you, and I will continue to keep Malcolm Crowe in mind. On the Bradogue, that's a great thought. It's sad how little is left of that little river - nothing above ground at all. There was that plan to open up a stretch in the New DIT space, but it quietly slipped forward (or off the agenda altogether). So yes, why not include the outfall. I'll try to get there sometime soon.SeoR (talk) 22:13, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Malahide Castle and Fry Model Railway
Regarding the reversion of the cn tag. Thanks. Djm-leighpark (talk) 00:38, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I was incorrect to remove it. However my time is limited and I wished to backout incorrect (disruptive) information that was added.  One would kind of hope people who were interested would visit the Fry Model Railway article.
 * The tag you added had the incorrect citation needed date.
 * Citations were available in the Fry Model Railway at the start of the paragraph. If you felt this was needed then Template:Citation needed says: If you have the time and ability to find an authoritative reference, please do so. Then add the citation yourself, or correct the article text. After all, the ultimate goal is not to merely identify problems, but to fix them..  I would have kind of hoped someone wishing to add cn notice would have copped this.
 * I have a slight vested interest in this as you will see for my contributions to these articles.
 * An IP user has added a description and incorporated part of this while uploading citations. Some of his contributions have been removed as I have suggested they are more appropriate for the Fry Model Railway article.  However I have not checked his contributions against the citations I have added so you may wish to recheck the article.
 * Regardless if you were caught out by this likely others also would have been, so the article is now probably in a better place.

Hi Djm-leighpark, thanks for taking the time to respond to the brief edit comments. And first, I especially agree with your final point, the article is improved by all this - it seems that between my error and your correction, we inspired someone with local knowledge too, and the balance is a better piece. I did make a mistake, and I'm glad that you picked it up promptly. As a semi-local, I am embarrassed by the error - I did hear about plans for a new location in Malahide, but it was so many years ago, I assumed they had failed, and that in the end the OPW had stepped in with the Marino Casino, some nice basement space or similar. I should have checked, and I'm glad that they're still going (though mystified how any plan can be so far off schedule, especially with 1.5 MEuro backing it). And this is where the citation comes in. As with myself, many users will not necessarily follow a link, and nor should they have to - statements in an article must be referenced there, if needed, and reliance on another article is not enough. I was doing an alphabetic review of articles, as I have small chunks of time for WP, and so I do not always have a chance to do secondary checking - the CN tag flags for someone with relevant knowledge. That said, when I do have time, I will sometimes, but usually where I have some prior knowledge, tackle the matter upfront. Anyway, thanks, and yes, all better in the end, and I will recheck as you suggest. SeoR (talk) 09:41, 5 February 2018 (UTC)


 * I visited the Fry model railway probably in the 1990s ... the only time I've been to Malahide. I was doing an article for the Drumm battery train when I sort of discovered the Fry Model Railway had sort of 'gone missing'.  Well I did a stub article for the Fry Model Railway (including co-ordinates for the place!) and worked it back into the Malahide Castle article as that is where people would look for it.  I used as 'As of' because the saga was ongoing ... but agree I should have also done a citation (but because I knew the rightful citation was in the Fry Model Railway and because there'd need to be a project update and probably more because I didn't know or think).  Now for a straight cn citation I'd have probably done a Multley grumble about the citation notation police and fixed it ... but for pointing at the wrong Casino (That's actually the sort of foot in it mistake I make frequently) the appropriate course of action is to wlak the culprit round Howth Head or send him on the 33 bus for Loughshinny.  Anyway I got stung by the conflict edit with the IP user when trying to fix it (who did everything but provide a citation!) so I had my come-uppance and missed even more of match of the day.  I had removed some of this content as marginally beyond what was needed but felt it might have a place in the Fry Model Railway Article.  I'm sometimes only here for the craic and buzzing the 5 pillars as close as I dare ... if a jobs not worth doing for a bottle of stout then its not worth doing.  Now for the relevant stuff
 * I've improved (hopefully) the Fry Model Railway article
 * Added a section for Casino House wherein its details can be consolidated.
 * Including using a citation which included where the current Taoiseach announced back in 2012 that he was delighted this matter (the moved of the Fry Model Railway) was resolved and with the citation suggesting the Casino house was a romantic summerhouse.
 * Added a picture legitimately imported from Flickr to commons
 * Added a little more about the collection .. I'm a little stuffed for citable sources on the actual collection but this would improve when the Fry Model Railway approaches reopening ... this twitched my mind to Mail Packet Steamers ...
 * Essentially led me to create an article for TSS Princess Maud which was a relief on the Dun Laoghaire route and seems to have taken part in both the Dunkirk evacuation and D-Day landings.
 * Back to Malahide Castle ... the redlink and cn around the cricket annoyed me so I looked to quickly fix the 'cn' ...
 * Become concerned the 11500 claim was possibly incorrect and 10000 more appropriate
 * You can see my recent contributions for what happened when I checked another Cricket article citing that number ....
 * Proposal:' Cricket on Malahide Castle Article
 * Article to a section specifically called Cricket or Cricket ground
 * This will be a target anchor for an optional redirect article call sometime like Malahide Cricket Ground
 * If 11500 cannot be cited change the content to something like: ... actually Withdraw this prosposal as I've just noticed a Malahide Cricket Club Ground
 * I work across the various Malahide articles to ensure they link properly to this. I may soften the Malahide Cricket Clud ground size to a size over 10,000 and 'one or the largest, ...' until a citation can be found.  I'll have a go and feel free to watch and backout and of my contributions if you need to.  Thanks. Djm-leighpark (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Great to understand more, and I liked the point on the Drumm model, that's the sort of interesting little detail only a mass project with capacity like Wikipedia can gather in. Sorry re MoTD but a sacrifice in a good cause. That sounds like great editing, and I see in my watchlist that you've also been enhancing Malahide. The picture is especially good news, and the spinoff article, and the cricket point (I always wondered about that claim, knowing the ground), so yes, a whole quest opened up from that one visit to Malahide, and your own knowledge. I will scan over too, but it sounds like you've got it well in hand.SeoR (talk) 07:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments. The most amazing thing was that when I travelled on the Princess Maud I just merely thought her an old ship with no stabilizers, I know I travelled on one of the few ships (and I really don't know how few) that was at both the Dunkirk evacuation and the D-Day landings!  There's more to that article when I have the chance and I've a mind to try to get it to B-Class ... the ship was deserving of that ... (I normally only aim for between start and C-Class).  But my scrapes continue .. I got an article for the production company of the most watched non-sport UK TV programme referred to in about 50 articles booted into draft for potential non-notability .... don't ask why I was creating that article in the first place!  I originally did the Fry Model Railway article because had ended up doing a whole load of MGWR stuff following on frm Kilfree junction enhancement and Morton was as the GSR when the Drumm battery train existed (Or so a book I had loaned from the library said) and the Fry Model Railway was really an article to support the Drumm battery train And JJ Drumm.  The Fry article also led to the Inchicore Railway Works article some while ago and  also led me on chain which even resulted in my editing The Biggest Little Railway in the World‎ and a few TV programmes so its been a little sort of a sprint.  Back to the Fry Model Railway ... The Malahide Residents Forum are receiving quarterly updates from Finglas CC.  The November update wasn't really worth bring into the article though they are on track ... but they should be reporting in February/March 2018 that some significant action is happening.  It should also show at some point on the Finglass planning Portal.  Any appropriately licenced images of Fry or its models would be great for the article.  I really only happen to have Malahide on my watch list through editing those articles to link to the Fry model railway.  Thanks for your support. Djm-leighpark (talk) 20:20, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I am truly amazed there is heresay this has slipped to Spring 2020 ... Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:06, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I enjoyed this discussion, but yes, sadly, like most projects in Ireland, delayed again and again. I do hope to see it next year...SeoR (talk) 22:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Geraldine Gill
High importance? I won't fight you on it but there are no independent sources verifying her importance. ww2censor (talk) 11:57, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks ! Most courteous of you, but entirely my slip - I was editing from a small mobile screen, and sadly missed checking my resulting text. With all due respect to the subject, a case of just about Notable, not in any sense High prio. I will fix at once. I was trying to snatch a few minutes, as I'd still like to get the tally of assessments better down by year-end, but my progress this year has had some slow patches. Best,SeoR (talk) 13:30, 31 October 2019 (UTC) Done!SeoR (talk) 13:33, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * No problem, while I was checking the newly listed articles in Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Ireland articles by quality log it just seemed an odd assessment, so I thought I'd ask. I usually only review the unassessed ones and ones that have only one value added. I ignore those that have both values entered, which I presume is mainly you. I see we are getting down to 8,000 but new articles daily keep hindering that goal. Personally I can't spend much time doing Irish assessments these days as I am now also an OTRS agent which can be time consuming. Good luck. ww2censor (talk) 14:50, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Ping appreciated, ; now down to 100 fully unassessed, and then on with a few hundred Start and over 8k Stubs... One of the very active editors (especially on roads and images) I recall from 10-12 years back is also on the case lately, great. Understood re OTRS - brave, good luck. Someone’s got to do it! SeoR (talk) 09:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Good stuff and I see that User:Sarah777 is also active. I try to do a few every day. She asked me an assessment question the other day so I pointed her towards User:Kephir/gadgets/rater and or User:Evad37/rater. Do you use one of them? ww2censor (talk) 11:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly, Sarah777. Great. And now zero Unassessed... At least for this moment :-) SeoR (talk) 16:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Ellen Prendergast
Thanks for your input on the lead. I was stuck. That was the wording in the sources but I couldn't imagine how exactly it was true. Whether it meant first state archaeologist or qualified though I'm still not certain. If you have any access to sources which might clarify that?  &#9749;  Antiqueight  chatter 14:38, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi   &#9749;  Antiqueight, and my pleasure. I am fairly sure it was about qualification, but will double-check; one of my family attended the UCC archaeology course and still has some notes. WIth Prendergast and Claire O'Kelly touched on, Irish archaeology is coming on nicely.SeoR (talk) 21:22, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that would be great- I have another couple of names - but since I just killed my browser, I'm mid rebuilding the list of who I was looking at - not sure how many are archaeology. But I rather enjoyed doing those - even if they are a little shorter than I'd like...  &#9749;  Antiqueight  chatter  —Preceding undated comment added 21:26, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, browsers :-( Microsoft, I guess, but none are fully stable - Chrome went down on my mobile the other day and did not retain the last state, though it should. But Internet Explorer on my work PC falls over routinely and loses the open tabs 70%+ of the time. You are doing great work with new articles, a real pleasure to see.SeoR (talk) 21:33, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * No - annoyingly it was Chrome. It crashed while in a clean so it died and wiped the history all in one. Yay. Luckily I rarely get stuck with IE. Though we have a few work apps that use/force it. And thank you - It is lovely to hear.  &#9749;  Antiqueight  chatter  —Preceding undated comment added 21:41, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I know the feeling, we are on Windows 10 but so many internal apps were built for IE that we're stuck on that, even though even MS wants everyone to move on to Edge / Cortana. My relative is trying to check re Ellen Prendergast. She remembers MJ O'Kelly well, apparently a genuinely interesting lecturer. Interestingly, the biggest barrier for many students in archaeology then was lack of funding to go on digs, which were unpaid, and needed some room and board cover, though it seems Claire O'Kelly, in between great archaeology, also did some food preparation and other work to support field students. Some memory also that she died in the home of one of her daughters, possibly on the Howth Road, but the funeral was in Cork.SeoR (talk) 21:50, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Curious point - MJ O'Kelly's mother, and Claire O'Kelly, and many others, knew him as Brian, although his publications were all as MJ.SeoR (talk) 22:06, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Hospitality duties this weekend, so little time yesterday to tomorrow but I did hear one other name of definite interest - Eileen Barnes (b. 1876), apparently the NMI key archaeological artist, among other things - and there were also de Paor and a couple of other staff whose names I will receive by Monday.SeoR (talk) 21:47, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Cool. I should be able to get stuck in over the weekend again.  &#9749;  Antiqueight  chatter 14:10, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Irish sporting body categories
Hello! Thanks for alert. I removed mistakes. Greetings! Filipid011 (talk) 00:51, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Filipid011, and greetings too! I really appreciate the energy, but this question is a complex one in Ireland, and those categories were carefully tidied to try to best reflect the tricky situation.SeoR (talk) 07:27, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You are welcome :) I hope that this situation will be resolved in the nearest future. Filipid011 (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Rakestreet
I've untagged this from IreProj - it seems to be a clear AFD. Not sure how to propose that - any opinion? Regards Sarah777 (talk) 23:29, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Unsure if this ia a place ... but I note . I might go driving some roads on google maps if I can find the place?  Corrds are 54.071,-9.355 and a pub, petrol station and small general store.  Insufficient for article ... probably no useable content elsewhere.  Suggest a PROD? Djm-leighpark (talk) 00:09, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Prod is what I suggested when she asked on my talk page. ww2censor (talk) 00:24, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Sarah777, and Djm-leighpark and ww2censor, a pleasure to see you all here :-) I tend to agree with PROD.  We have to draw the line somewhere, we already accepted many mere townlands, even when those contained only a windswept hill or a few untenanted fields, and this seems to be a very minor place - the graveyard isn't even Rakesetreet but Kilmurray (it seems to be a locale within Kilmurray More.) So we have Cawley's pub and a small service station...  No way notable.  I've driven that road, but I doubt I even noticed it.  I don't want to start a cull, but I think on some topics, like low-level places, non-notable schools, and maybe even obscure sporting people, we need to stop accumulating.  I'd support PROD.SeoR (talk) 07:26, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I confess to not being able to identify the rightful area identifier for this place for any merge. google maps has 'MOATE' which points at a farmhouse and has a picture of a lake. I have been a BOLD person and Prodded it.  It has been re-added to WikiProject Ireland to trigger correct alerts etc.  I shall now go back to curries, pig racing, saving a parcel comparison website (possibly and possibly not the one I use to send parcels to Ireland .. and I must send one for Christmas ... and of course Wikiquote.  SeoR ... are ye game for the morning and afternoon Marys of Kildare Street? Djm-leighpark (talk) 08:25, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Sarah777 and Djm-leighpark: Where would we be if all Irish townlands, especially completely unsourced ones, such as all in these articles Category:Lists of townlands of Ireland had their own stub? Perhaps there should be a cull of all the unsourced or non-notable ones, however, I think the full lists can stay even though I am personally not a supporter of such lists. ww2censor (talk) 12:03, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Lists are actually quite interesting. Where we would likely be is Cross in Mayo; In Sligo WB would likely suggest Innisfree though retention would probably lead us to Muck Island.Djm-leighpark (talk) 12:45, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree re. keeping the lists. Hi Djm-leighpark, so you too, like myself and Ww2censor, are much out of the country? Modern Irish life, but at least we keep one foot in. One sudden business trip just ended, more to come!SeoR (talk) 23:09, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm away like a heifer on the rambles who has found a prize bull. I look to be back for the Fry-up whilst avoiding the manure pit and the footing of the turf.Djm-leighpark (talk) 23:26, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Was never a fan of townland articles unless one was especially noticeable; they often overlap towns and villages and are sometimes uninhabited. As you can see here in the article Townland there are potentially 61,098 such articles in total in Ireland - which would nearly the double the current total IlrProj articles! Maybe we could set a minimum standard for townland articles, like, even a "stub" must have an infobox, location coordinates, a reference and some text? Agree there is also a large number of biographies of not-very-notable living persons usually sportspeople - often underage -though they can be well written (class C in some cases). Maybe we need a working group on this...and on another topic mentioned I must confess I find lists interesting and useful. Sarah777 (talk) 19:21, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Agreed, Sarah777, I really don't believe most (95%+) townlands should have an article - we should generally start articles with sraidbhailte / villages. There are exceptions, as Ireland never fully conformed to the hamlet / village / town / city progression - take Ballinskelligs in Kerry, for example - an area of maybe 5-6 townlands, where there really is no one "true" village but there are arguably two "centres of population." So we have an article on Ballinskelligs as a settled area. And that's fine, it's clearly notable. But most townlands, no. I agree, there should be at least a clear central locus, an infobox, and at least one reference, and min. two lines of text. With sportspeople, I really don't mind the present coverage, but we need to balance out in other categories, as it really is disproportionate. But that's a lot of article creation needed - and nowadays it's the bar is higher for article retention than when some of those masses of athletes were covered. If we had more people, and time... Says me, just back from basically 4 days offline due to sudden RL demands. I'd fully support a workgroup or two, as without trying to "manage" people, common goals, like Assessment clearance, really do help move things along.SeoR (talk) 22:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Joseph Jorkens for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Joseph Jorkens is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Joseph Jorkens until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. &#8213; Susmuffin Talk 14:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you User:Susmuffin, I will look into that at once. I regret that I've been offline for most of the last 10+ days.SeoR (talk) 00:07, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Sourcing for citizenship in biographical articles in general
Re this, I figured I should take it to your talk page since your edit (and the previous one) did actually resolve the issue with that particular article by adding the quote, which I unfortunately missed.

In general it is considered WP:OR to assume that someone has dual citizenship because various laws and biographical facts imply that they would, which is essentially what Citizenship is clear from described birth situation (US birthright citizenship, Irish blood descent) did. Our article Irish nationality law states that In cases where at least one parent was an Irish citizen born in the island of Ireland or an Irish citizen resident abroad in the public service, citizenship is automatic and dates from birth. In all other cases citizenship is subject to registration in the Foreign Births Register. while our article on Ronan makes it clear that her mother chose to give birth in the US so her daughter would have US citizenship (i.e., she was almost certainly not there as a diplomat or other public service officer). So Irish blood descent would not grant her automatic Irish citizenship but rather she would have to register (or be registered) to acquire it. This is a very messy issue with BLPs for people of various nationalities (not necessarily Irish or American), since news sources that report on celebrities don't necessarily know the ins-and-outs of nationality laws. (To give an example I'm fairly familiar with, lots of people have been reported in sources like Entertainment Weekly as having "dual Japanese and X citizenship" when the Japanese nationality law implicitly forbids such people from possessing dual citizenship.)

As I said above, the probably is essentially solved in that article, but I would advise you to be careful going forward, as this is a very slippery subject.

Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 05:49, 30 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks Hijiri 88, and I appreciate the message. I thought that implication was probably not sufficient, which is why I checked for, and added, a quotation. I have some legal training, and while not in this area, it's enough to warn me that things are not always straightforward - for example, as you highlight, one country's laws may allow for it, but those of a second concerned country may forbid it, even demanding that a person repudiate something they hold as of right.  A good general reminder of this came from Down Under in recent years, impacting senior politicians.
 * Now, that said, in the case of Saoirse Ronan, there is no such complexity. As you note, there is a requirement that "at least one parent was an Irish citizen born in the island of Ireland" and both of her parents were born on the island of Ireland - the condition applies to the parents, not the child.  The Foreign Births Register is for people whose situation is more complex.  Likewise, with regard to the USA citizenship, for now it is enough to be born on US soil (to a non-diplomat) but many countries do require "legal presence" which Ronan herself has commented her parents might not have had.  So in this specific case, both citizenships are clear, but even this case does highlight the complexities.  So, again, thanks, and good to make sure of these things.SeoR (talk) 09:13, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:06, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Nomination of Judy Dushku for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Judy Dushku is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Judy Dushku until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.  DGG ( talk ) 03:12, 24 February 2020 (UTC)