User talk:Sergecross73/Archive 100

Administrators' newsletter – September 2023
News and updates for administrators from the past month (August 2023).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Pppery · Theleekycauldron
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Dwheeler · G.A.S · Royalbroil · Ssd



CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Bradv

Oversighter changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Bradv

Guideline and policy news
 * Following an RfC, TFAs will be automatically semi-protected the day before it is on the main page and through the day after.
 * A discussion at WP:VPP about revision deletion and oversight for dead names found that [s]ysops can choose to use revdel if, in their view, it's the right tool for this situation, and they need not default to oversight. But oversight could well be right where there's a particularly high risk to the person. Use your judgment.

Technical news
 * Special:Contributions now shows the user's local edit count and the account's creation date.

Arbitration
 * The SmallCat dispute case has closed. As part of the final decision, editors participating in XfD have been reminded to be careful about forming local consensus which may or may not reflect the broader community consensus. Regular closers of XfD forums were also encouraged to note when broader community discussion, or changes to policies and guidelines, would be helpful.

Miscellaneous
 * Tech tip: The "Browse history interactively" banner shown at the top of Special:Diff can be used to easily look through a history, assemble composite diffs, or find out what archive something wound up in.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Music certifications
Hi again! I’m not sure how familiar you are with album/single certifications but  on Ready to Die — Billboard published an article with its sales but RIAA updated the albums cert 2 months after the article was published. What are we supposed to keep in the box? This user reverted it This is the second incident I’ve had with this user in a month. Please step in. I opened a discussion on their talk page. I would greatly appreciate your opinion! Pillowdelight (talk) 04:35, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not all that deep into the certification/chart stuff. I occasionally add stuff but largely let others clean it up if its wrong or not preferable or whatever. (A lot of the album/song articles I create/maintain aren't exactly lighting the certifications tables on fire either, if you know what I mean.)
 * I'd recommend starting up a discussion on the article talk page, and if you're not getting anywhere with a consensus, try neutrally inviting some members of the music WikiProjects for input. (ie "Hello, we would like some additional input on what numbers/sources to use for cerifications at Ready to Die. Thank you!) at WT:ALBUMS or WT:SONGS. Sergecross73   msg me  17:15, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Request
Please take a look at my latest source for the article List of Pokémon Anime Characters, I am really confident about this one. Master106 (talk) 18:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't know how to be any more clear than I was a week ago, when I said that the article is in terrible shape and people should be more concerned about that than whether characters are protagonist, main, or supporting. Go do something more constructive with your time and energy. It's like worrying about the color of the your door of your house is when your roof just caved in and the basement is flooding - there's more important things to work on. Sergecross73   msg me  18:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you please confirm that the source Master106 provided is reliable or not? Ajeeb Prani (talk) 06:09, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Famitsu, at its core, is a reliable source per WP:VG/S. Whether it's enough to support his otherwise WP:FRINGE-leaning viewpoint, (it should not take multiple weeks to cite a basic, common sentiment) I'm not interested in debating further, per my comment directly above. If you guys need more input, feel free to neutrally reach out to a Wikiproject like WP:ANIME or WP:VG requesting input. Sergecross73   msg me  15:55, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

That IP
Please don't fall for this innocent act, he's tried it before. Returning to edit a Dierks Bentley album article, and Gucci Mane's discography, which I previously detailed here is far too much of a coincidence for this to be anyone else. Also, BlaccCrab's last edits before being blocked were to Gucci Mane articles...  Ss  112   01:34, 6 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I left a comment at the SPI. I'm of a similar mindset of AO - I think it's worth looking into, but not 100% it's enough for a DUCK block. Let's see where it goes. Sergecross73   msg me  15:46, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. If nothing else, this refactoring of a heading and snarky blanking are dead giveaways it's him—both things BlaccCrab did multiple times.  Ss  112   00:47, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * AO blocked him, and I was pretty close to doing the same. I warned him about refactoring and he responded just like Blaccrab would. Let me know if he comes back. It's all fresher in my mind now so I'll be less likely to be gun-shy next time. Thanks.  Sergecross73   msg me  17:14, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

In regards to cancelled games list
Hello! I recently saw your work with the list of cancelled Sega Saturn games. Nice job! Look, i stopped doing those lists a long time ago but, if you're interested in reworking other canned games list that i worked on such as the Atari Jaguar (1), 3DO (2), and Atari Lynx (3) then go ahead! I have no issues with it (i'm currently more focused rewriting and expanding the Atari Jaguar game articles these days. Also, if you have interest in working on other canned games list for systems like the 32X (4) and Virtual Boy (5), you can freely use my work that i did too! Have a great day and take care :) Roberth Martinez (talk) 22:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * - Thanks for the kind words! (It's particular nice to hear after some negative comments received a week prior.) And thanks for all your hard work in the cancelled games area in the past. Your work has already helped a ton in my efforts to expand and standardize these lists - I've seen it in some of the page histories. I've been working on them off and on for the last year - they can take a lot of research, but I always find it interesting in all the stuff I learn while doing it. Thanks for offering your past efforts work too. I already created List of cancelled 32X games, but I'll run through your work and see if there's anything I missed. There's probably stuff of yours I can add. I'll also look into your virtual boy content and see if it seems like there's enough to warrant splitting out an article. Same with the rest - my biggest interest is usually Sega and Nintendo lists, but I'd like to branch out into other ones eventually too. Sergecross73   msg me  23:34, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem! I look foward to see what you do in the canned games area :D Roberth Martinez (talk) 23:36, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Question
Hi Serge! Was wondering(and this might sound strange) but can you recreate the edits logs/edit history for Vietnam: Black Ops and Godzilla Online? These articles were previously deleted before years ago until I recreated them. I recal BOZ doing this to The War in Heaven (video game) when he was an admin. Timur9008 (talk) 12:03, 7 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Technically, yes, I could, but there's really nothing there worth restoring. Especially the Godzilla one, which was just a single unsourced sentence from back in 2007. You're not missing anything. Sergecross73   msg me  11:11, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking! Timur9008 (talk) 15:04, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

User on an extra album cover uploading spree
Hi Serge. I've come across the user popping up on articles on my watchlist today, uploading extra album covers, in some cases that were already removed several years ago. I've removed most of the extra covers and cited WP:NFCC (most are just different poses of the artists with a different "fancy" background, nothing that can't be explained in prose if it's deemed important) and left a message on the user's talk page, but I feel that anything less than an admin impressing upon them the seriousness of being this cavalier about uploading excessive non-free media won't get them to stop. They uploaded close to 20 alternative covers all in one day. Thanks if you can drop them a line.  Ss  112   15:26, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Serge, something more concerning involving this editor has come up. They are now editing using their registered account and the IP address 47.223.58.232 to try to get edits past another editor who watches the articles they have edited recently. The user had a dispute with the editor Danionek on their talk page (last comment in that thread here), and is now reverting Danionek while logged out. I've asked them to stop but they've been editing using this IP address for the past two weeks.  Ss  112   13:49, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's see how they react to your warning. They did seem to respond well to your warning about multiple album covers being an unwanted thing. Sergecross73   msg me  14:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "Why's everyone so obsessed with me lately" was their response. Doesn't sound like somebody who's going to stop utilising editing on an IP.  Ss  112   09:07, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Gave them a stern final warning. Sergecross73   msg me  11:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Serge, this user hasn't heeded warnings from any editor. They are now on a spree replacing album covers that don't need to be replaced, for which they've been asked to stop by another user twice after replying they would stop after the first message:, . (Along with that, most of their covers are getting tagged with inadequate/no source templates like this, which is another concern.) I also asked them to stop uploading alternative covers and treating Wikipedia as a gallery of non-free media, and they apologised here but just today uploaded one of the covers I previously removed . I don't know if this behaviour is worth a block to you (I think it is), but not only that, this and this are the way they're now replying to users taking issue with their unnecessary fiddly edits. I don't know what else is going to get them to stop at this point.  Ss  112   03:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Going to throw it out there that since being warned about it again, the user has since done the same thing again, adding an unnecessary image to "Come Clean". Breaktheicees (talk) 16:05, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore this, I got sidetracked. Gave them a short block. I agree, they don't seem to be taking things seriously. Sergecross73   msg me  16:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I just foresee more problems after their unblock with this blank + response.  Ss  112   08:29, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Me too. They seem incapable of self-reflection or constructive discussion of their own editing. I don't think they've been bad enough for an indef, but it doesn't take just to justify subsequent blocks due the same issues... Sergecross73   msg me  12:06, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This editor has recently been unblocked and is still doing the same thing as before   . TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 17:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Warned, on the verge of blocking again. Sergecross73   msg me  18:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This editor is still edit warring     . TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 15:51, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's disappointing. But while there's extra burden on them because they're proposing the change...it looks like you've reverted just as many times, and there's no talk page discussion or anything. If I were to block them, I should technically probably block you as well. I'd rather give you both the chance to hash it out on the talk page instead. Please do that. Sergecross73   msg me  16:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It will probably be best to just lock the page temporarily. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 16:25, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Barnstar

 * No problem. Good luck with it. I'm happy to help. Feel free to ask questions on my talk page or at the music Wikiprojects, I tend to keep an eye the Music, Album, and Songs ones. Sergecross73   msg me  16:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Delete Famicom games list
Hey Serge not sure if you are aware but someone has finally merged all the Famicom games to the NES games list. Although we are still keeping the Famicom Disk System games list because all console add-ons have their own pages (N64DD, Sega CD, Jaguar CD, etc). So I was wondering if you could start the process right now because you are an admin and we did say we would delete it once it is merged. NakhlaMan (talk) 03:04, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * If the merge is complete, then all we really have to do is WP:REDIRECT the Famicom list to the NES list, as it could still be used as a possible search term. Anyone can do a redirect - you don't have to be an Admin to do that - but if you'd prefer I do it anyways, I'd be happy to. Just let me know. Sergecross73   msg me  20:41, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I just want the whole Famicom page to be deleted. If u could do that that would be great. NakhlaMan (talk) 00:44, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * That's not what we do. The end of a merge is to redirect the merged page to the target. -- ferret (talk) 00:55, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ferret is correct, but "merge and delete" and "merge and redirect" is effectively the same thing except for having a public page history being available, so it's fine. Sergecross73   msg me  01:34, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh alright I got it but I will still removed the Famicom link from template boxes etc. NakhlaMan (talk) 02:18, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Friendlyhelper9949
I know you've had [some] run-ins with the user above, and it appears as if despite warnings and encouragements to avoid their disruptive editing, they've continued to make the same edits that caused their previous block. Just thought you'd like to know.  livelikemusic   ( TALK! ) 01:37, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Seconding this, Serge. The upkeep after their fiddling around with bonus tracks and "edition" this, "edition" that after I asked them to be mindful of this issue the other day is getting tiring. They're another editor who for the most part goes right back to doing the same things editors have asked them to not do after a few days have passed.  Ss  112   01:54, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * So far, I've blocked them for image uploads, and final warned them for edit warring. If it's something outside of that, like needless track list tinkering, then there should probably be warnings before jumping to a block. (If that's a correct assessment, that is. That's what I got from my brief skimming of their edits and the comments above at least. Correct me if I'm wrong.) Sergecross73   msg me  02:18, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Serge, just today: there's them restoring their edit from when they were logged out on an article they were reverted on last month... also see: restoring an edit they made logged out that was reverted last month. Same restoring an edit that was reverted last month. Also done here and here and other articles Danionek has just reverted them on. As I said above, they are another in the long line of editors who wait a certain amount of time and then make the same edit again hoping nobody notices this time. I don't think they're going to stop the disruptive editing.  Ss  112   11:03, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Not to mention, they're taking this as some kind of personal attack, which it is not. User is not going to stop this pattern of editing behaviour, regardless of warnings, reverts, etc.  livelikemusic   ( TALK! ) 13:03, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, calling another editor a "terrible editor" is surely another violation, as well as their continued warring edits.  livelikemusic   ( TALK! ) 13:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I understand the concerns, and this editor certainly seems to be irritating a number of editors now, but when I block editors, its because there's a solid, established policy, guideline, or consensus against something, and its clear that the editor has been notified of this, and yet still keeps crossing that line. We are at that point with this editor if we're talking about image uploads, 3RR violations, or editing while logged out. But the track list altering stuff? I don't see where they've been notified of a hard policy/guideline/consensus and then gone and broke it anyways.

I'll definitely give them a warning for violating WP:NPA for the first time, and a warning could probably be given to stop tinkering with track lists until there's a consensus on switching htme because there's clear opposition to their changes, but unless there's some other WP:DIFs on other developments, that's all I can justify as things stand right now. Sergecross73  msg me  15:20, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Serge, I just provided you with diffs of them restoring at least five edits today that they made while they were logged out last month that were already reverted by the user Danionek. That's (slow-motion) edit warring. Those edits were not "tinkering with tracklists". See my message above Livelikemusic's last two messages.  Ss  112   16:29, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I know, but they're all single reverts across different articles. We're talking about multiple violations of "1RR" over the course of a month. No discussions on any of the talk pages showing any consensus against either (that I spot checked at least.) Its worth a warning to use talk pages, but I can't block for that slow of a slow motion edit war. Sergecross73   msg me  17:15, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * They've apologized and said they'd change after my warning. Please, someone, start up a discussion at an article talk page, or WT:ALBUMS if its more broad-spanning - to hash out these issues. Sergecross73   msg me  18:45, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I have a very strong suspicion that this user,, is. However, the CU data is stall. If someone wants to gather the evidence and do an SPI for behavioral digging, go for it. Please do not request a CU, I've already looked. -- ferret (talk) 19:11, 15 September 2023 (UTC)


 * While I'm not familiar with those accounts, there's certainly a similarity in how they talk and feel compelled to blank their talk page all the time. Sergecross73   msg me  20:16, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for confirming that, I knew they were a sockpuppet account. They've been editing the same articles for years—the Hilary Duff, Mandy Moore and Victorious/other Nickelodeon and Disney TV show soundtrack edits make it very obviously them. The two words and a number in the username are a giveaway too. as the admin who blocked EmeraldWicket9947 to let them know they're back on Friendlyhelper9949...  Ss   112   01:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
 * For record-keeping's sake, I've noticed they've since been blocked as a sock. Sergecross73   msg me  18:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * As a final note on this, I've just CU confirmed and blocked 3 new socks reported to Yamla and Ad Orientem. -- ferret (talk) 22:50, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Diomandz11 still adding unsourced genres
Hi Serge. I notice you've come across the editor as they've made a few Porcupine Tree song articles, but despite my asking them twice several months ago to source genres on articles they create   (a month apart), they're still creating articles with unsourced genres on them. They're clearly capable of adding sourced genres  but they're just not doing it all the time. Not sure anything more I can say to them will get them to start doing it.  Ss  112   13:20, 2 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Warned. It gave me the opportunity to warn him about some of the weak song article spin outs he's been creating too, that I've been meaning to address with him. Sergecross73   msg me  13:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2023
News and updates for administrators from the past month (September 2023).

Administrator changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg Hey man im josh
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg Alex Bakharev · CorbieVreccan · Cyphoidbomb · Davodd · Hog Farm · JamesR · KnightLago · Mark Ironie · Nosebagbear (deceased) · Rschen7754 · Tamzin · TonyBallioni



CheckUser changes
 * Gnome-colors-list-add.svg DatGuy
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg Ferret · RickinBaltimore
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg TonyBallioni · Worm That Turned

Oversighter changes
 * Gnome-colors-view-refresh.svg RickinBaltimore
 * Gnome-colors-list-remove.svg TonyBallioni · Worm That Turned

Guideline and policy news
 * An RfC is open regarding amending the paid-contribution disclosure policy to add the following text: Any administrator soliciting clients for paid Wikipedia-related consulting or advising services not covered by other paid-contribution rules must disclose all clients on their userpage.

Technical news
 * Administrators can now choose to add the user's user page to their watchlist when changing the usergroups for a user. This works both via Special:UserRights and via the API.

Arbitration
 * Remedy 9 ("MarioProtIV topic ban") of the WikiProject Tropical Cyclones case has been rescinded.

Miscellaneous
 * The 2023 CheckUser and Oversight appointments process has concluded with the appointment of one new CheckUser.
 * Self-nominations for the electoral commission for the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections opens on 2 October and closes on 8 October.

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Archive Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:41, 4 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Yeesh, the Admin ratio is awful this month... Sergecross73   msg me  16:25, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Moving categories just created
Hi Serge. What do you think of moving a category you've just created but accidentally misspelled? I ask because I just did this—I had a brain fart and typed "artists" instead of "albums" in a category name and corrected my mistake, and obviously when you go to move a category, it says "Categories should not be moved without discussion" at WP:CFD etc. Obviously moving years-old and populated categories would need discussion but if I've just created it and clearly misspelled or used the wrong word there's no real need to go through the whole process of filing a request at CFD, right? Maybe in future it might be better if I've misspelt a category name to create the correctly named category rather than move the misspelt one, and tag the misspelt one for speedy deletion?  Ss  112   08:59, 4 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I have no problem helping with that. I feel like your explanation would handle anyone potentially upset about not having a discussion. (Or maybe this discussion itself counts?) Anyways, link me to what it is and confirm what it should be and I'll look into it. Sergecross73   msg me  13:26, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh, I meant I moved it myself and I was wondering what you think of that if I'm correcting my own mistake on a newly created category (if you think I should instead take that to CFD in future—or informing you, as you've suggested), and/or if a better solution is just creating the new category instead of moving it, as moving is what the warning is about.  Ss  112   20:21, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ohhh gotcha. Sorry misread that. I'd say you're probably fine, but if someone makes a stink about it, apologize and go the CFD route. That's probably what I would do. As long as it's a one time thing, you're probably not likely to get anything worse than a "Hey don't do that" so the stakes shouldn't be that high or anything. Sergecross73   msg me  20:38, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thanks! Happy Birthday! Sergecross73   msg me  15:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

New Pjesnik21 sock
Hey Serge. Jovarca1000000 is a sock of making all the same overlink-type edits  and updating Croatian and Serbian topics again  (as always, they can't stay away from updating List of number-one singles of 2023 (Croatia)—maybe you could protect it so newly registered editors can't edit it? I'll watchlist it though to see if their socks return). Would you be able to block them and revert all their active edits? They also created a redirect for a song, so hopefully you can delete that too. When they registered looks about the last time you blocked one of their socks too.  Ss  112   19:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Let me dig into it some. It feels like one of those "Yeah that certainly possibly but I don't know if it's certain enough" type situations. Feel free to drop any other difs you think would be helpful. Sergecross73   msg me  00:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Pjesnik21 extensively edited Arca discography (first instance here) and their sock Chalga edited it too, and Jovarca (presumably somewhat naming themselves after the artist?) has just done so too.
 * Edits to Croatia national football team. Here's one of Jovarca's, and one of Pjesnik21's socks keeping it updated , and Pjesnik21.
 * Obscure Serbian artists' discographies. Milica Pavlović discography: Pjesnik21, Jovarca. Aleksandra Prijović discography: Split off by Jovarca, extensively contributed to on the artist's main article previously by Pjesnik21, and an IP you blocked for Pjesnik21 using.
 * Jovarca editing the same article, Pjesnik21 editing it.
 * Jovarca adding to a discography, previous blocked sock of Pjesnik21 (ChalgaPeperudka) adding to it as well.
 * I think that's too big of a coincidence to be anyone else.  Ss  112   17:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Editor interactions -- ferret (talk) 17:50, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * ChalgaPeperudka and Jovarca1000000 confirmed. blocking and tagging shortly. -- ferret (talk) 17:54, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you both. It was a long week and I didn't really have the energy for a deep dive right away. Glad we got to the bottom of it. Sergecross73   msg me  15:23, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Editor not understanding the importance of seeking consensus, threatening to revert
Hi Serge. I recently changed the text for the upcoming Peter Gabriel album I/O to be consistent with the capitalisation of the article title (it's been located at the capitalised I/O since two weeks after its creation). It's been written inconsistently in the article text since its creation. Little did I know I was indirectly reverting an editor,, who's been here for quite a number of years but refuses to accept MOS:CAPS and WP:TMRULES and considers Peter Gabriel's lower-case "i/o" the definitive and only acceptable way to render the title, and earlier this month changed the text of the article to be the lower-case i/o without moving the article. Nobody has objected to the article being located at what was previously I/O (Peter Gabriel album) and is now I/O (album) (and this user isn't even objecting to that), and there has been no formal consensus to write its text in all lowercase. Past versions of the page  even have it capitalised (as it's an acronym for Input/Output) with the "stylised as i/o" note.

After a discussion on the talk page, the user is now saying they will revert me if I don't revert myself, which I have said I won't do. I have tried and apparently failed to get through the point to this user to start a move request so they can get consensus and gauge the opinion of the Wikipedia community for the page to be the closest it can be to i/o. They refuse to do that, as they are still insisting the article text doesn't need to reflect what the article title shows it as, and are essentially saying they don't need formal consensus. I'm obviously not getting through to this editor. Would you be able to have a word to them and tell them to seek consensus through a move request or an RfC and not edit war (as essentially, my edits were the revert in a WP:BRD cycle?) Thanks.  Ss  112   01:52, 21 October 2023 (UTC)


 * Agreed that an RFC should be held, but I don't think I need to be intervening about something as minor as someone threatening to break 1RR... Sergecross73   msg me  13:52, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not just that, it's the refusal to accept that they need consensus to change the article from how it was once they've been reverted and to even acknowledge BRD. That's why I pointed out they've been here for years (2009) and apparently don't care. The only thing they seem to think they need is how Peter Gabriel's website writes the title and that's the way it should be. I just notice they've spent 10 months arguing on-and-off about Hunter Biden's laptop on Wikipedia, devoting untold amounts of kilobytes to the topic. It is pointless for me to engage with a user like this any further.  Ss  112   15:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks like arguing with them as is will end up being a fruitless time sink. It's the sort of situation where an RFC may be more effective, where they have to hear it from a variety of other people rather than just you. Sergecross73   msg me  18:41, 22 October 2023 (UTC)