User talk:Shadow's Cradle

Prostate Massage
The journal "Urology" is known in the trade as the "Gold" journal by uros, as opposed to the "White" journal (Journal of Urology). They are the most core of core urological journals. The approach of WP is to take the papers published in these journals and give their opinions weight, and deliberately exclude primary sources (even more so primary sources in tiny, obscure journals) when there is a conflict of opinion, especially findings in journals based in developing countries. So when you say that you found them on Pubmed, it means nothing, and does not mean they should go into the article. The only edit I can agree to would be a modification of the sentence saying there is no use for prostate massage today to include the fact that it is still used in China and some parts of Russia. ► RATEL ◄ 03:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Let me add, I hope you are not a sockpuppet for another user (abbreviated as RLM). Admins can trace sockpuppetry by looking at your IP address and will ban you permanently if you are found to be inventing new identities to pursue old conflicts. If this comment does not apply to you, please ignore it. ► RATEL ◄ 04:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Ratel, thanks for the reply. I have no ax to grind with you or anyone else. Personally, prostate massage has helped with my symptoms of BPH more than any other treatment I've tried, so I do have an interest. I have a better understanding now of the WP approach for medical entries and understand what you are saying about "core" sources. I hope more research is being done and will make it into the pages of the Gold and White journals.

I still take issue with the paragraph:

"As a consequence of these findings, prostate massage is not used in the treatment of any medical disorder today, and prostate massage should never be performed on patients with acute prostatitis, because the infection can spread elsewhere in the body if massage is performed." ' I have two problems with the first part of the sentence - "As a consequence." As an "effect" statement, you can make the case that the Egyptian study was the "cause" because of the great reputation of the hospital and journal. However, having the documented cases you specify, especially the iffy Japanese case, immediately after the Egyptian study citation is a bit misleading to the reader because those isolated cases are the last words to be read before the "As a consequence" sentence.

I suggest the documented cases be moved after the "As a consequence" section.

As an aside, you really should reconsider including the Japanese case - the man was 70 years old, had diabetes and was in poor health. Fournier's gangrene is bacterial in nature and is associated with a diabetic condition. I'm not a urologist, but the article didn't state if his prostatitis was acute or chronic. An older, diabetic patient in poor health with a possible bacterial prostate infection was given a prostate massage. This resulted in a different kind of bacterial infection (Fournier's gangrene) of the genitals and perineum... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why this might have happened.

Also I look forward to see the Russian and China citations which I assume you will do. The statement "prostate massage is not used in the treatment of *any* medical disorder today" alone is too much of a blanket statement and I believe requires a citation if left that way. Note: I don't know about the Russian Urologiia journal, but the Chinese one is from National Journal of Andrology, for whatever that is worth. And seeing how prostate massage is more prevalent in Asian countries, maybe they know something that our western physicians don't.

Also, I agree with the statement that prostate massage should not be used on acute bacterial prostatitis (or on a cancer patient, for that matter) but a citation is definitely needed which I found: 5 Nickel JC. Prostatitis: evolving management strategies. Urol Clin North Am 1999; 26: 737-751. MEDLINE.

Ultimately you are the boss as you are very established (and prolific) here but again, I feel this article can be improved with the suggestions I have made. Looking at the history of the page I can see a lot of people have made edits to it. I do propose that a section called "Prostate Massage as Alternative Therapy" be added. Aside from my personal experience, there are some articles and plenty of anecdotal evidence out there to state that prostate massage has been chosen as an alternative approach for addressing some prostate issues. I would like to hear your thoughts on this before I create the section. Thanks again.

Shadow&#39;s Cradle (talk) 06:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)Shadow's Cradle (talk) 06:52, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've implemented some of your suggestions, and go ahead with your new section, but be aware someone else may take exception to it and delete it. Do not be promotional in your approach either, be dispassionate and even-handed, or others will edit out the hype.► RATEL ◄ 09:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Ratel, I added the alternative therapy section for prostate massage. I used the Chinese survey in this section. It was published in the "Gold Journal."

Shadow&#39;s Cradle (talk) 17:02, 13 October 2008(UTC)