User talk:SheighZam

July 2009
Please do not remove maintenance templates from pages on Wikipedia without resolving the problem that the template refers to, or giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your removal of this template does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Thank you. ttonyb1 (talk) 23:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Welcome!
Welcome to Wikipedia, SheighZam! I have been editing Wikipedia for quite some time. I just wanted to say hi and welcome you to Wikipedia! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on or by typing helpme at the bottom of this page. I love to help new users, so don't be afraid to leave a message! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Oh yeah, I almost forgot, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ ); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on, or place helpme on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome! ttonyb1 (talk) 01:07, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
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File copyright problem with File:MissClitatRadioRoom5209.jpg
Thank you for uploading File:MissClitatRadioRoom5209.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the file. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their license and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. Skier Dude ( talk ) 08:03, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Boba Phat
I have nominated Boba Phat, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Articles for deletion/Boba Phat. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Apoc2400 (talk) 17:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Article credibility established. Result of AfD was KEEP. SheighZam (talk) 12:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Your recent edits
Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. --SineBot (talk) 08:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
Bongo  matic  09:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Boba
You don't need the scans in the articles; so long as you cite them legibly in the article itself you should be fine. I can see that at least one newspaper article is explicitly about him, which is a definite assertation of notability. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • (Many otters • One bat • One hammer) 16:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

How to participate in AfD discussions
Hi SheighZam

Please note that while you are free to comment as much as you wish at an AfD, you are not free to give multiple "keep" (or other) opinions.

Regards, Bongo  matic  08:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The Go-Gos Jane Wiedlin & Boba Phat at SDCC 09
Great photograph! That's not really Jane Wiedlin at the 2009 conference, is it? Viriditas (talk) 12:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I guess it is. Viriditas (talk) 12:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Viriditas!
 * Sure is. AND she is a HUGE fan of Boba Phat. Check the following links: http://twitpic.com/bhgfi That's the pic she posted on her Twitter, and here's her message: http://twitter.com/janewiedlin/status/2825438816 Note that she even correctly identifies him by his known name of Boba Phat too... would you like to help me out and add a "keep" top the AfD forum?
 * She's a bug fan of Boba Phat - another example of his notoriety, which I'm getting kind of aggravated of having to defend. *sigh*

SheighZam (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi back at you, and thanks. I'll take a look at the AfD and I hope you stick around.  Are you friends with Jello?  I was wondering if he ever edits Wikipedia.  BTW, since you're new, you probably don't know about friendly notices. Basically, whenever you invite someone to vote on something, just remember to keep it neutral, in other words, don't tell them to vote "keep"! :-)  You can read this link for more information.  Finally, I added an image to your user page because your name came up with a red link.  Feel free to remove it or add your own images/content (A Tuscan Raver pic would be cool!)  Thanks for your good work and hang in there. Viriditas (talk) 01:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Viriditas,


 * I know Jello from the label I was on with Blowfly (Alternative Tentacles, but I presume you already know that). Other than that, no real contact in a while. Was supposed to perform with Blowfly in San Jose but couldn't make it, and Jello didn't make it down here to the San Diego show, so it's been years - 2006 since 'Punk Rock Party' came out. I thank you for the comic image - that's awesome!! And, nope, I won't change it - Tusken Raver would be cool, but I like gifts, and yours is my first and therefore means a lot :)


 * I did not know the standard for Keeps and what not; I am learning here, but figured since you recognized Jane, you may be a supporter of Boba Phat's notoriety. Regardless, I apologize if I presented myself incorrectly. There sure is a lot to learn here! As far as my message regarding your 1 vote per editor, I have never seen that SaveRobots on any of my posts before. Is he/she connected with another member? There seems to be so much factionalism on here it is difficult to keep my bearings. All I know is that my article on Boba Phat IS notable, and I plan to make my best effort to express this. Hopefully, it gets approved, as the sources are completely reliable, valid & notable in and of themselves. Anyway, thanks again so much for the warm welcome, and I am open & appreciative of any help you can provide (such as proper "keep" etiquette) on Wikipedia. Sincerely, SheighZam (talk) 09:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, again. I struck out my comments on the AfD and commented there. One thing you might want to consider is using your user space as a sandbox to work on articles that might end up being changed or deleted.  As an example, I've created a backup version at User:SheighZam/Boba Phat (with the categories commented out). I don't know if you want your Miss Clit article to appear there or not, but if you did, you could move the information from here and copy it to User:SheighZam/Miss Clit for further work. Viriditas (talk) 10:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice! You are AWESOME! Thank you for being so helpful... my gosh, I am finding that if people in the real world could only be as unconditionally helpful as those on Wikipedia, we might live in a better place! I moved the Miss Clit article as well at your suggestion (and thank you for moving the Boba Phat one for me - unbelievably cool of you), but am pretty sure that the redirect to Blowfly is sufficient for now, at least until I perform or record with him again. Unless there's something more notable about MY participation with him, Blowfly really is the notable one. I am stoked, too, that you showed me what the sandbox is. I keep seeing it written, but never quite understood. It is through interaction that I learn best, particularly because almost all the countless pages of info on here appear like legalese.


 * Also, thank you for the strike through. Upon further research myself, I have no clue who the 1st time voter is, but they mention they work with optimization, are familiar with Wikipedia & seem to know Boba Phat from some personal experience, so its possible they felt the need to add their opinion because of that. If you look at my IP history, the first time I came on here was to correct an irritating spelling error on Blowfly's page, so I suppose I was in the same boat at one time. As far as SaveRobots, based on the pages he has worked on, if I am correct (and I may be totally off-base), I think he is a musician who has been on tour since early this year, which may explain the lapse. But then again, I could be dead wrong. I DO know the bands of the pages he has worked on, and it appears as though he lives in the same area as Boba Phat, so there may be an association there. Either way, the two voters are completely uncorrelated based on their WhoIs results, so I fully believe they are unrelated. I too believe that the truth comes out in the end, so in good faith, there is no reason to vote under false pretenses (and thanks to you, I know to remain neutral on voting participation!). If the article is deemed notable, it will stay; if not, it won't. Not sure what the time frame is for such consideration, but I am hoping it gets approved, and does so quickly.


 * It's 3:30am, and I'd LOVE to get some sleep!!! Again, I offer much thanks, Viriditas. Between your kind explanations and others' patience with me as well, I feel very welcomed here! SheighZam (talk) 10:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

October 2009
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we must insist that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

The above "warnings" are a template. They link you to our policies and give a auto message. As far as the inclusion I'm not swayed yet, I find some of the sources lacking. Proving existance in my mind is not notability as I understand wp:rs. I will keep a closer eye on the article though and rest assured if I change my opinion I will go and strike my delete vote. As far as help anytime you need it I'd be happy to try or point you to someone who can help if I can't. :) Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

A friendly advice
Hi. I've noticed you're trying to discuss the Boba Phat AfD on the Wikipedia Review. Do as you please, but my advice, based on my experience is: you're wasting your time. WR is a highly idiosyncratic bunch of editors (many of them banned, for right or wrong reasons) which have often a strong deletionist stance especially related to biographies of living people (here known as BLPs). Some of their concerns make sense, but overall my personal feeling is that they are a bit paranoid on the thing, and try to slash most BLP articles which are not immediately obviously notable because they fear that it can bring "defamation" on the subject. Check their blog to have an idea of their opinions on WP and stuff. Also, they have a penchant to call everyone disagrees with their attitude as a troll, barring effectively any attempt to have a civil discussion. It is sad, but it is so. I swear I tried to have a civil discussion with them (check a thread about Miriam Sakewitz on the "Biographies of living persons" subforum), but it is nearly impossible to do that: they will nearly always accuse you of having an hidden agenda or of being a troll. Sad. If you go on, I hope you have better luck than me. -- Cycl o pia -  talk  19:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Another piece of friendly advice when I said you were badgering people at the afd I mean lengthy comments on everyone rejustifying your position. A recent example is the weak keep vote. Sometimes it comes off as soapboxish to the extreme. There is nothing to prohibit you from doing so so long as you stay within policy though as well. As it stand you seem to have campaigned this one into a keep. I still think a delete is the route to go (personal opinion only as not my view enforced but consensus.)but aas things look to end differently congratulations on your first article. It was a baptism by fire but I think you'll make a good addition to our ranks here!


 * Wow! I got a cookie AND a comic! You are rad! And I DO appreciate your explaining things to me, as I am very willing & open-minded to learn the ins & outs. My background has come from mediation, arbitration & debate, thus I apologize if this is considered badgering/soapboxish on Wikipedia. It is simply tendency to "cross-examine" so to speak. I am hoping that your message has meant that the Boba Phat article has been determined a "keep", as I must say I wasa little confused by "4 more deletes or 6 more keeps" will warrant a close, so please clarify: is this article safe from deletion? Thanks again, HIAB, for understanding my ignorance & assisting me through the process. I believe have become quite a bit more adept at learning how this process works with much thanks to you.... SheighZam (talk) 04:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Not safe yet but a few more keep votes without more deletes would warrant a snow close in your favor. That's only my opinion so the reviewing admin can decide that one. But you are getting very close to your desired ending! Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks again, HIAB. Hopefully the end result is favorable, and promise to do my best to be as neutral as possible and not "soapboxish" in the future. I feel you have taught me well, for which I am grateful! SheighZam (talk) 04:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi HIAB


 * Hope you are doing well. It looks as though the consensus for deletion of Boba Phat has been removed by an editor, for which I am grateful. Additionally, now I am getting messages indicating that the photos I uploaded onto his page (all referenced, sourced, provided with rationale and available in the public domain) meet all requirements for permission of usage here on Wikipedia. I believed I did extensive research on the photos prior to upload specifically to make sure I abide by copyright laws, as I too am a photographer and copyright infringement is very serious. I have responded to Kelapstick (sp?) who put all the photo files up for deletion, and the last thing I want to do is continue coming back to Wikipedia to continually defend myself and my articles. I do not understand why these photos would be in violation at all since properly sourced, tagged & among the public sphere, as they clearly assisted to provide documentation for notability, which was the original question at hand! Please advise if you can find the time - your expertise is quite appreciated, as I believe you are both fair & neutral - two traits that I believe are highly valuable here. With much sincerity, SheighZam (talk) 05:24, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
Thanks for your kind words, I have replied:) R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 09:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Talkback
Bongo  matic  09:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello, SheighZam, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome!
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More friendly advice
Hi! First of all, I'd like to echo what Cyclopia said about WR above. Don't bother with them, they aren't going to help you. Fortunately they also have the attention span of a gold fish (and in some cases the intelligence of one as well) so they'll forget all about this soon. I'm not exactly popular over there (I was nominated for "WP:DICK of distinction" by Thekohser a year and a half ago) so my view is biased but they really aren't worth your time. Second, you should step back from the Boba Phat AfD for a day or two. Let things calm down so it doesn't get out of control. This place can be pretty stressful and it's easy to get carried away. Vyvyan Basterd (talk) 16:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks again Vyvyan. Yeah, it sure is stressful. I am trying to remain neutral, but dislike being called out as if I am creating havoc when merely defending what meets GNG & WP:N guidelines. Additionally, I feel as though I am being helpful rather than counterproductive, such as in the case of Hell in a Bucket's desire to be less confused in his tally (thus I removed my unnecessary & excessive "keeps" as I did not realize that was improper etiquette at the time). I agree with what you say & after taking a look at Cyclopia's post, I could clearly see the agenda that those at WR have. While it doesn't hurt to know the mind o the opponent, I too believe it is in my best interest to remain inconsequential over there. I went there due to the link that Cyclopia said she posted atop the Boba Phat AfD page, otherwise I'd have never even known about it. Either way, you're right - I need to cool off & let the chips fall where they may. I don't necessarily need to have the last word - I can actually be pretty cool like that, but I Do have a tendency to want to support my stance, particularly when I am accused of creating bots or puppets or whatever. I mean come on. I checked the IP addresses of one of the "spa" voters in question, and they're out of Georgia! I'm in freaking California! *sigh* Thanks for tolerating me as I learn. I WILL have to read up on "WP:DICK of distinction" - that sounds amusing, and frankly almost worthy of an award! SheighZam (talk) 16:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Lbpt small bp.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:Lbpt small bp.jpg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. kelapstick (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Kelapstick,

I do not understand why this image or any of the others you have added to the deletion list constitute pending deletion. All are photographs are sourced correctly and published in the public domain. I clarified this specifically in my rationale of each one please advise. Obviously the subject in question is Boba Phat as indicated not only by the original tagline themselves but also based on valid 3rd party news sources. These photos specifically refer to the character, thus meeting the criteria for GNG status (as a fictional character is technically not qualified as a BLP), and thus support Boba Phat's notability as a well-known cosplayer. Please clarify what you need in order for me to remove the potential deletion result.

Thank you Kelapstick! SheighZam (talk) 05:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

File:LA Weekly Wiki.png listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:LA Weekly Wiki.png, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. kelapstick (talk) 20:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Kelapstick,

I do not understand why this image or any of the others you have added to the deletion list constitute pending deletion. All are photographs are sourced correctly and published in the public domain. I clarified this specifically in my rationale of each one please advise. Obviously the subject in question is Boba Phat as indicated not only by the original tagline themselves but also based on valid 3rd party news sources. These photos specifically refer to the character, thus meeting the criteria for GNG status (as a fictional character is technically not qualified as a BLP), and thus support Boba Phat's notability as a well-known cosplayer. Please clarify what you need in order for me to remove the potential deletion result.

Thank you Kelapstick! SheighZam (talk) 05:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Daily Titan Boba Phat.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:Daily Titan Boba Phat.jpg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. kelapstick (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Kelapstick,

I do not understand why this image or any of the others you have added to the deletion list constitute pending deletion. All are photographs are sourced correctly and published in the public domain. I clarified this specifically in my rationale of each one please advise. Obviously the subject in question is Boba Phat as indicated not only by the original tagline themselves but also based on valid 3rd party news sources. These photos specifically refer to the character, thus meeting the criteria for GNG status (as a fictional character is technically not qualified as a BLP), and thus support Boba Phat's notability as a well-known cosplayer. Please clarify what you need in order for me to remove the potential deletion result.

Thank you Kelapstick! SheighZam (talk) 05:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

File:Lbpt bp small.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:Lbpt bp small.jpg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. kelapstick (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi Kelapstick,

I do not understand why this image or any of the others you have added to the deletion list constitute pending deletion. All are photographs are sourced correctly and published in the public domain. I clarified this specifically in my rationale of each one please advise. Obviously the subject in question is Boba Phat as indicated not only by the original tagline themselves but also based on valid 3rd party news sources. These photos specifically refer to the character, thus meeting the criteria for GNG status (as a fictional character is technically not qualified as a BLP), and thus support Boba Phat's notability as a well-known cosplayer. Please clarify what you need in order for me to remove the potential deletion result.

Thank you Kelapstick! SheighZam (talk) 05:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Kelapstick's rationale
Hi, I saw your comments on Files for deletion/2009 October 19 and I think you might have misunderstood Kelapstick's rationale for deleting your images. First, backup the images on your computer and make sure you have copies. Next, peruse Non-free content and become familiar with it. Then, head over to Media copyright questions and start a discussion about your images. Understand that Kelapstick nominated your "non-free" images for deletion because you have already uploaded and used alternate images that meet the "free equivalent" criteria. Viriditas (talk) 08:25, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for explaining Viriditas, just to expand, we only use fair use images to illustrate a subject when there is no free equivalent and there is no chance of ever getting a free equivalent (for example if someone died, it would be impossible to get a new picture of them, and licence it as "free content", in that case we could use a free image). In this case the images were being used to illustrate Boba Phat, however there is a free equivalent on the page, and if there were not, it would still be possible to get a free image, so we are not permitted to use a fair use image.  I wasn't saying that the image was not of Boba Phat, just that there was a free version available, so we did not require the use of a Fair Use image (we try to use fair use as little as possible).  Hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions.  Cheers.  --kelapstick (talk) 15:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I just read through your comment at the deletion discussion above a little more throughly, to clarify, if you take a photograph, or scan of a newspaper article, or a picture posted in the newspaper, you do not own the copyright, and therefore can not release it into the public domain, or change it's licencing. What you actually have is a photograph of copyright protected material.  Also the removal of the images is not related to the notability of Boba Phat, it has been demonstrated at the AfD that he is notable enough to pass the general notability guidelines, and you don't need to take a picture of the article to prove that there was an article about him in the newspaper, you can simply cite it by using standard citation templates.   Cheers.  --kelapstick (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks Kelapstick & Viriditas for the info. I have looked through the Non-free content & Media copyright questions and by all accounts I am now even more confused. The reason I uploaded the first free fair use image was because I was unaware of the thumbnail to the right option, so the photo came out HUGE below the text. I thus re-uploaded the same photo upon figured out the thumbnail tag yet did not know how to delete the original image. I am now even more baffled as to what EXACTLY I must do to keep the images on the page. I don't mind them being removed as AfD has been demonstrated, but DO want to have at least 1 image on the page. I DO have all of the images backed up on my comp. Please explain to me - as if I am a 4-year old, because there is a whole bunch of seriously confusing and seemingly contradictory information on the WP pages to learn proper Wikipedia etiquette - i.e., how exactly I should add tagging or whatever to keep as many pics as possible, or what I need to indicate in order to avoid copyright infringement. Thank you both for your kind assistance & attention to helping me become more educated on this matter.


 * Very Best,
 * SheighZam (talk) 22:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The bottom line is that the pictures of the newspapers can not be used and they are likely to be deleted. They can't be used because they are copyright of the newspaper, even though you took the picture, the subject of the picture (the newspaper) is copyright.  The image Image:The Go-Gos Jane Wiedlin & Boba Phat at SDCC 09.jpg looks like it can be used, although there is a fair use claim on the page, the image probably needs to have a different licence on it (there currently is no licence at all).  It says that permission was given by the author, but it is confusing.  Where did you get that image, and where does it say there is permission to use it.  I think we should focus on keeping that one, and seeing if we can find others.  The best way is for you to take a picture of him yourself and upload it here, or someone you know doing the same.  --kelapstick (talk) 22:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Kelapstick, if you assume that SheighZam took the photo (Image:The Go-Gos Jane Wiedlin & Boba Phat at SDCC 09.jpg) herself (which I think she did while she was playing Tusken Raver) and that the photo belongs to her, can you recommend a good license she should use or help her add one? Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 22:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks to both of you. The Jane picture IS my property, and can be used accordingly - i just need to know how to properly source it. Additionally, I DO have the original images from the newspaper articles, not just photos taken by my camera of the articles themselves (the reason I did that was to stress notability). I can - and if you direct me as to how as this is so very confusing, - and will upload the original images from LAWeekly, Long Beach Press Telegram, Daily Titan and an additional image used in the LBPost that I did not put up. All of these are the actual direct photos, NOT photos of articles as taken by my camera like the ones that are up now. Please advise, and again, thanks so much for your help!. SheighZam (talk) 22:43, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, when you say they are your property, you mean that you took the original pictures for LAWeekly, Long Beach Press Telegram, Daily Titan etc. As in you were at the event with a camera, and took a picture of the people, and sent it into the newspapers?  I'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to get things straight.--kelapstick (talk) 22:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL Snarky.... love that word! No, I did not take those photos for the paper. What I meant is that I have the images used in the photos as .jpgs, (right clicked and saved to my comp from that particular paper's online source) as opposed to simply uploading photos I took of the print articles with my camera. I didn't mean to imply that I took the newspaper photos, just the Jane Wiedlin one. All of the others have been published and proper credit is given to the respective photographer as well as publication where it was used in print. I DO have 2 additional photos I DID take of Boba Phat with Seth Green & another of him with Anthony Michael Hall that I personally DID take. Perhaps these would suffice? Does that help? SheighZam (talk) 23:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

←Gotcha. So the story is, the photos that you took from the newspaper still can't be used, as the copyright is still the property of the newspaper, even if they are attributed they are still copyright and can't be used without justification, and since there are free images available we won't be able to make justification for their use. That's just the way things work here, we use free content when it is available, and if it is not possible to get free content, we might use fair use content. As far as the Jane Wiedlin one, if you took that than we can use it and just have to change the licencing. Also there are a couple of things to tweak on the image page (I modified it a bit). First, add the date it was taken into the date field I added, second change source to "self made", what they are looking at is where you got the image, not where you were when you took it (you can add the convention details in the descrioption field. Next add GFDL-self underneath the template, that will add the GFDL licencing, and it will likely have Creative Commons 3.0 added to it later on too.  This should work...If you want to upload more pictures that you took (in person), you can, but this time where you select licencing, pick the one with "recommended" in brackets.  Hope this helps...Cheers.  --kelapstick (talk) 23:20, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I am done for the day, so I probably won't respond to anything until tomorrow. Rock on.  --kelapstick (talk) 23:21, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks again, you've been a tremendous help! Enjoy the rest of your day & I appreciate your updating the info on the Jane pic. I will upload the other 2 photos I took as per your suggested licensing standards. Cheers! SheighZam (talk) 23:48, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem, if you need anything else just let me know on my talk page, also don't forget to change the info and licencing on Image:The Go-Gos Jane Wiedlin & Boba Phat at SDCC 09.jpg. --kelapstick (talk) 15:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Kelapstick! I changed the Jane Wiedlin pic as you requested and uploaded 2 additional shots that I also took myself. I also re-uploaded the LA Weekly shot, as it is included for the sole purpose of identifying how a reliable objective 3rd-party news source deems Boba Phat noteworthy, NOT simply to illustrate the publication or the image in and of itself. I think I did the changes correctly, but this is all very confusing to me. I did not change or delete the three images of the newspapers, as I wanted to consult with you as to whether they should be deleted & simply referenced in the article itself, or whether there is an appropriate way to justify including them without infringing any copyright laws. If you have a moment & wouldn't mind double-checking that I filled out the latest info correctly, that would be ver much appreciated. Thanks a million times over! SheighZam (talk) 03:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry that you're finding our policy regarding image content confusing. I deleted File:LA Weekly Wiki updated.png, because it was a screenshot of a copyrighted web site.  That makes it copyrighted to the author of the web site, in addition to the copyright of the photographer of the image contained in it.  The article in question already has plenty of free images on it, there is no justification for us to have any non-free images on this subject.  This means no images from newspapers, no scans of newspapers, no images that you right-clicked and downloaded from another web site, no screenshots of web sites, etc.  Images allowed include photographs that you actually took yourself.  Thanks. kmccoy (talk) 11:25, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You are not required (and as Kmccoy noted, not allowed) to prove that Boba Phat is notable by uploading screenshots from websites and newspapers, that is done by citing sources using citation templates. For example this link to LA Weekly is reference 10, that link to LA Weekly is enough to show that he was featured in LA Weekly, and by linking to it that way there is no copyright violation and no reason to have a fair use image in the article.  The reason we use images in articles is to illustrate the subject (Boba Phat), we do not use images to establish notability.  As I had said before, we only use copyright material under fair use justification when absolutely required, and when there is no possible way to get a free image.  Since we do not need (and are not permitted) to use a copyright image (in this case a screenshot of a website) to establish notability, there is no justification for its inclusion in the article, as there are free images available (thanks to you) to illustrate Boba Phat.  I hope that I am making myself understandable, and Kmccoy explained things quite well too.  Cheers.  --kelapstick (talk) 15:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Also I changed the licencing on File:The Go-Gos Jane Wiedlin & Boba Phat at SDCC 09.jpg to be both GFDL and Cretive Commons 3.0, since that is what you had on the others, and I merged the templates on the one with Seth Green and Anthony Michael Hall. Hope you don't mind.--kelapstick (talk) 15:54, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * anything you do could only improve things for the article. I don't exactly know what merging the templates means, however once again, I thank you for your time & attention to helping out so diligently, Kelapstick!! SheighZam (talk) 17:49, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Boba Phat
''I have added this discussion to my talk page so that it may garner insight from others who have repeatedly observed your questioning the notability of the article's subject despite consensus to keep on AfD page as notability has been CLEARLY established - I have been nothing but polite to you Drmies, however you seem to keep attempting to discredit myself and a multitude of other editors, while making unwarranted changes to this article with what even you yourself refer to as "assumptions". I should not have to keep deliberating with you on minute details. Simply because I agree on one issue regarding external links you made DOES NOT constitute your continuous pecking away at the article in question.''

Hi Drmies:

Thanks for your review.

You question the notability of Boba Phat, (and yes I have 3rd party links I can reference, albeit the links are nobody of significance, just some YouTube convention attendees referring to him as an A-List Cosplayer, which he is.)

EVERY single reference provided is ACCURATE and expresses his notability among common cosplayers alike as well as a multitude of celebrities. Additionally, this past week alone he was featured in 2 print publications - Long Beach Press Telegram as well as the Daily Titan, along side his numerous online media sources. He is recognized at EVERY Comic Con & Star Wars event. His links are NOT just FICKR, Facebook & YouTube - there are a myriad of first-rate news sources who additionally address him as notable, including the LA Times, LB Post, Long Beach Press Telegram, SeattlePI, Metromix, Casey Pugh (creator of Vimeo), The Daily Titan, The Craig Ferguson Show, + more.

Additionally, he has been interviewed & will be a feature in Lucasfilm's upcoming Star Wars fan movie, as well as is presently featured in a documentary called Crashing the Con which is available for purchase through Amazon. Boba Phat makes NO MONEY off of this; he was featured simply due to his notability as an underground icon. He is also scheduled to be featured in the next issue of Star Wars Insider as he was interviewed & photographed at the latest Long Beach Comic Con for the article due to his recognizability among the copsplayer scene. Every single reference cited will take you to a link expressing his notability. There should be no issue here whatsoever. As soon as that issue hits stands, it will be referenced here.

As far as his relationship to Miss Clit, the same person worked on both Wikis, and she is notable as well, perhaps to a lesser degree, but still worthy of publicity, as she attracts crowds to Blowfly shows. Headlining with the the original inventor of rap music & multiple award-winning artist, as well as being a fixture on several of his top albums should easily convey her notability as well.

If there is anything specific you require - links or photos of the print articles or what not, please advise & I will gladly provide. Thank you for taking the time to address this. SheighZam (talk) 07:18, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Drmies,


 * Appreciate your update of Boba Phat. Thanks for making the necessary changes as (clearly) my experience here is limited. I also am grateful for the concise & specific reasons you provided for each change you made. It is this that helps a newcomer like me learn proper Wikipedia etiquette. Additionally, thank you for leaving the one most important external link, the one to his own site, whereas my issue with Hammersoft having removed that twice with no justifiable reason contradicted almost every single Wikipedia entry. And yes, I agree the other external links were excessive yet that had not come under scrutiny until now. I feel you have done a fine job helping to establish an objective, encyclopedic perspective that was difficult for me due to my own emotional attachment as this was my first article, despite your disagreement on the subject's notability. Thank you. SheighZam (talk) 10:07, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Drmies, I was trying to be polite before, but you have seem to have mistaken my gratitude for ignorance. I have undone your edit, and here is my justification - In re: "let's suppose that comments on blogs, facebook, and youtube are not exactly relevant references as required by an encyclopedia, and that facebook etc. are not reliable sources. rm attempt to clutch at notability straws. find significant discussion.". This is 2009. Wikipedia is NOT Encyclopedia Britannica. Regardless of what domain these FACTS came from, the validity remains that multiple people who ARE deemed "notable" have made direct comments regarding their acknowledgement of the article's subject. Thus despite your still doing your best to eliminate credibility due to the websites where the comments have been made, the fact remains that Boba Phat IS notable among a niche of comic book, Star Wars & cosplay fans to the point of being mentioned by 1) The star of Fanboys, a Star wars-based movie on The Craig Ferguson Show - in a clip that happened to be posted on YouTube; 2) One of the most famous Marvel comic book artists of this generation specifically stating that Boba Phat is his all-time favorite cosplayer on his own personal Facebook site; 3) a legendary rock star who was excited enough about meeting HIM to not only mention this on her Twitter account but to post a photo commenting on how meeting him "made her day". Additionally, he has been FEATURED (and yes, when there are 5 photos taken at a convention containing thousands of attendees & he happens to be "mentioned" in one of the photos, that constitutes being FEATURED, particularly when the only other photographs FEATURED were of top comic artists Stan Lee; Jeph Loeb, J. Scott Cambpell, Jim Lee & Darick Robertson doing a signing; "Robot Chicken" writers Tom Root & Seth Green; & famous Comic Book band Kirby Krackle). Frankly, there didn't even need to be a mention of his name for this to be considered FEATURED, but alas, there was.


 * ALL of the above is verifiable, and the links provided are not there to "grasp at straws" regarding his notability; they are placed - objectively - in the article to distinguish WHAT makes him notable - and that is that celebrities who are familiar and quite interactive with this niche scene find Boba Phat notable. In addition. I HAVE provided multiple RS from the San Diego Tribune, Long Beach Press-Telegram, The Daily Titan, a documentary in which he plays a verifiably decent role (see Crashing the Con yourself - or simply read the comments on a small segment of his role that was uploaded to YouTube), MetroMix (a Nationally recognized news domain), FOX 5, plus more etc.


 * I have been polite to you regarding your own beliefs, however they CLEARLY conflict with the number of others who find Boba Phat quite notable, and I believe I have more than proved it, and it was supported by multiple editors who also understand that Wikipedia is NOT Encyclopedia Britannica - never will be - and that countless blogging sites, celebrity Facebook sites and a myriad of other internet sources who ARE familiar with the cosplay/Star Wars/Comic scene understand that Boba Phat is well- deserving of his status of notability. In the future, please discuss your personal issues with me directly before making unjustifiable changes that are merely your opinion - or even better, these should have been expressed on the AfD site prior to the determination to keep the article on Boba Phat. SheighZam (talk) 12:11, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * SheighZam, it may help if you move this discussion to Talk:Boba Phat so that others can participate. You might even benefit from the opinions of other editors who may offer suggestions on how to further improve the article. Viriditas (talk) 13:14, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Viriditas. Appreciate the suggestion; I will do just that. If Drmies found all of this stuff he is now changing as questionable earlier, he should have made or suggested these multiple continuous changes during AfD discussion, not continually bringing up topics that have already been rectified, and then repeatedly adding more reasons to justify his biased opinion on a topic in which he clearly lacks knowledge. I don't mean to sound disgruntled, but it is clear that he has taken a keen dislike to this article and he himself is "grasping at straws" to diminish notability. *sigh* I believe we have moved past the discussion of notability, and I am more than willing & open to logical suggestions, but he is simply impolite "My foot?" Oh, Please. SheighZam (talk) 13:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's the thing: As long as you keep the discussion on the topic of improving the article and not on Drmies, you should be fine.  I agree with you that there are editors who are impolite, but the best thing you can do is ignore the slights and focus on getting the job done.  Also remember what kind of demographic you are dealing with.  Wikipedia is populated by younger male, technically-oriented but socially maladjusted geeks suffering from vitamin D deficiency.  Know your audience. Viriditas (talk) 13:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the only issue I have presently is Drmies & his continuous unwarranted changes seemingly to specifically target this article. While I'd like to remain neutral, and have been quite accommodating to everyone's suggestions - I am very open to all, generally in fact to those with whom I disagree. There is no other reason for me to put this on the Boba talk page other than to potentially open another can of worms regarding a re-attempt at AfD. I do believe it needs to be expressed that my issue is not the fact that I disagree with changes being made to improve the article, simply that this particular editor seems to continuously attack my article with a multitude of completely biased opinions. I am pretty easy going. I do not enjoy conflict, but I will debate when necessary. i feel I have proved my point. For Drmies to constantly approach me impolitely - to put it simply - "grinds my gears"! LOL re: Vit D deficiency. That's a fantastic analogy ! SheighZam (talk) 13:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Debate is great. No problem there.  The thing is, you are obsessing on Drmies when you should be pursuing your goal of improving the article. You're right about not discussing Drmies on the article talk page.  Just remember, whenever you debate, talk about the article, and the changes you want to see, not about the editors making the changes. Viriditas (talk) 13:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The issue is however that i had nothing to debate until logging on & noticing the myriad of absolutely inane changes that Drmies took it upon himself to change. I added a disclaimer that the discussion was placed on the talk page to improve the article. However I should not have to continually log on to find the same editor questioning issues that have already been established as fact. I fully agree with you 100% yet I know of no other way to permit others to see that I am simply parroting myself against the same nonfactual claims by the same editor, in this case Drmies. I have nothing personal against him, but I DO feel it is a waste of my time to keep undoing chnages that should never have been made in the first place. Eek. Can't we all just get along??! SheighZam (talk) 13:53, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I know, but just delete the word "Drmies" and any reference to other editors, and your arguments are good to go. I  think you know that there is a very good chance another editor will try to take this to AfD again, so I would recommend working with other editors to improve it.  Or, think of it this way: Drmies is doing you a favor by giving you a chance to collect your thoughts and focus on what needs to be done.  If he or another editor make another edit that troubles you, use the article talk page to address the edits (not the editor making them). Viriditas (talk) 14:00, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The way I figure would best rectify the situation at hand is to remove Drmies name and insert EDITOR IN QUESTION instead so that i not only get feedback upon improving the article, but also what other editors who have been in my exact position have done in the past while faced with a particularly difficult discussion as much of it pertains to the specific issue of repeating myself and undoing an EDITOR IN QUESTION(!)'s bias. I hope this will suffice, because no other editors have found the need to repeatedly make the same debate over & over again other than he, and really other than his changes, i have no problems at all with the alterations everyone has made. I believe they have all helped to improve the article, yet this editor has slowly been removing information that eventually will narrow the scope down so much that I will not have a leg to stand on if it goes back to AfD if I continue to allow him to chip away brick by brick without stepping in & bringing the situation to light. I don't think I am being unreasonable; if anything, I am specifically requesting assistance with what is proper etiquette when faced with a situation such as this one, no? SheighZam (talk) 14:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Heheheh..."EDITOR IN QUESTION" is still a reference to editors. :-) Just remove all that stuff and only keep the discussion about the content.  Just refer to the actions of the other editor as "changes", for instance, "Recently, changes were made that I disagree with and I propose the following, here's why..." Viriditas (talk) 14:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, let me see how I can best approach this, because without others seeing the (impolite) comments he has left, it is challenging to circumvent the specific debate I am having with Drmies. I may need a moment to focus on this one....SheighZam (talk) 14:13, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's best to keep the content and behavioral disputes separate. Concerns about civility problems with other editors as you describe can be filed at Wikiquette alerts, but remember that the behavior of all parties will be looked at.  My personal recommendation for you would be to ignore it for now, but if it arises again, don't respond to it in any way, simply file the report.  Of course, this is under the assumption that you have already contacted Drmies the first time (which I believe you did) and clearly communicated the problem.  But, don't get bogged down with this crap.  Remember why you are here.  Is it to write good articles or to get in disputes with other editors? Viriditas (talk) 14:22, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Viriditas, you are a lifesaver here, and I can't express how much your taking the time to assist me is more than appreciated. I DID change the Talk:Boba Phat to remain more objective. Please take a look if you have a moment. I am going to log off, eat a long-awaited Twinkie and some cold milk, watch the end of Paranormal Activity, and calm myself down. You are without a doubt the most helpful and rational editor I have come across, and I sincerely want to express that you have made me feel extremely welcome here. I am learning more about how this works from you than anyone else, as you so easily express technical concepts in a very basic way so that they are easy for a new user like myself to grasp. Hopefully Drmies doesn't throw a fit when he sees my discussion on his page, but I am willing to open that door with him specifically. You are fully correct that Talk:Boba Phat needs to remain neutral to be beneficial for all. I am very grateful for all you have done for me. With the greatest of sincerity, SheighZam (talk) 14:55, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Throw a fit"? I don't believe you and I are on a level of friendship where I would take kindly to that. Viriditas, my family might have a good laugh at your characterization of the WP community, but I assure you that I am not young and that my vitamin D intake is just fine. "My foot," dear SheighZam, is a response to the overblown claim that your subject is "featured" when he gets one line and one photo. Your remark that I should have brought such matters up at AfD is specious: AfD is not necessary the place to discuss every single word and reference, though in fact many of them were detailed by me, and even more of them by that other living vitamin-D deficienty, Bongomatic. That you take "victory at AfD" as a license to include every possible mention of your topic, that is an untenable position. I don't have any interest in edit-warring here, and I will leave this article in your capable hands--I find it moderately embarrassing that a person who walks around in a suit gets to be called notable because some famous person marked them in Facebook, but that's the way it is. And to both of you, I was going to say that you don't have to gossip behind my back, that I'd like to be in the know, but on second thought, just go ahead: I can't say I care that much. SheighZam, you surely don't mind if I archive your lenghty remarks on my user page. Drmies (talk) 18:38, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Perfect. Exactly the result I was awaiting. Just because you are uninformed as to the notability of subjects pertaining to a niche category is not my concern. To thousands of others, Boba Phat is quite a character & has an enviable cult following among his type. Understand I did nothing to incite your sparring with me and nitpicking each detail simply because your opinion is that Boba Phat does not meet your standards of credibility. Wikipedia is an open forum, and there are tons of topics on which I know nothing yet enjoy learning about on here. Boba Phat is one of those topics to a number of people, whether you like it or not. By the way, as stated - and it is just SO much like beating a dead horse to keep expressing to you the same thing - that Stan Lee, Jim Lee, Jeph Loeb, J. Scott Campbell, Kirby Krackle and Darick Robertson also got one line in that particular article. I'd say to be characterized with those legends defines being featured, but alas, we all have our own interpretation of language. I do not have any intention of edit sparring, but I will absolutely state my point as would you if you feel passionately about a topic & also have firsthand knowledge of it. That said, archive me away; nobody "gossips" on Wikipedia - it's an open forum, and clearly you were referenced & notified or else you wouldn't even be here to comment. Whether or not you find the subject "embarrassing" is an entire separate point of contention on which any mascot might disagree. Regardless, I appreciate your leaving the Boba Phat article as is. As far your assumption (there's that word again with you) that ""victory at AfD" as a license to include every possible mention of (my) topic" is not my intent. If I didn't understand the scene nor find Boba Phat notable, I wouldn't have written the article to begin with. I have been nothing but polite & thankful to those who are helping me out here - including you, until you started lambasting my well-sourced article, and might I add that no claim at all was made of Bongomatic - who you chose to "gossip" about by entering him unnecessarily into our discussion. I found Bongomatic to be extremely helpful by educating me on pertinent topics and not insulting me despite his opposing viewpoints. That is where you differ. Archive me away & move on, kiddo. I am sure the one thing we can agree on is that we both have better things to do. SheighZam (talk) 21:01, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * SheighZam, one of the key points about WP:AGF is that we should assume (unless we have good evidence to the contrary) that Drmies is only trying to improve the article. Also remember, you are very close to this topic, and WP:COI could come into play.  What I'm trying to say is that critical commentary from editors like Drmies is not only appreciated, it is encouraged, It's how we improve.  It's tough, but try not to bring emotions to the table here.  Simply focus on the article, and you'll be fine. Viriditas (talk) 23:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * To a large extend I fully agree, yet take a look at the history yourself. It is one thing to improve an article, it is another to use insulting and easily-misinterpreted terminology (i.e., my foot?") to express a point - especially to a an admitted newcomer, who has THANKED that person for their assistance in improving the article to a degree. Despite my POV, I have kept my stance VERY neutral. Each change made by that one particular editor has not only shown disrespect, closed-mindedness & an uncalled-for negative approach to a newcomer, but has caused me to want to reevaluate participating on Wikipedia as a whole. He had specifically removed PERTINENT information that verifies the notability of the subject, simply to justify why HE believes the subject is not notable. The information removed was CRITICAL to maintaining notability, and that discussion was already determined at AfD. I am all for improving the article - that is clear from my open-mindedness about any & all changes that DO, in fact, improve the article. I am sure there is some policy (of which I am not yet aware) about how this one particular negative experience can discourage a potentially good editor (such as I consider myself) from wanting to continue as an active participant here at Wikipedia. While I'd love to adopt your philosophy that Drmies alterations are welcomed - and as stated, I mentioned and thanked him for a change that did improve the article - the rest are individual attempts to detract information that is crucial to this article, regardless of my attachment to it or not. RE: WP:AGF I DID assume his stance to be helpful until I noticed - which looks like good evidence to me - his chipping away at facts one by one through the history, with poor one-sided, and frankly disrerpectful, justification. I'd like to drop this subject and move on, Viriditas. Thank you again for your input; I HAVE been focusing on the article, have been more than appreciative to a number of changes - regardless of whether I agree with them or not - that DO make sense from others who make these changes with valid reasons that DO enhance the article, and will continue to do so. I will not, however, tolerate rudeness, particularly from an experienced editor who should understand what a negative affect this has on a newcomer.
 * Regarding WP:COI, I have not hidden that I have first-hand knowledge of the subject - this is as a direct result of my witnessing the subject's popularity at conventions. There is no promotion necessary on my part regarding Boba Phat, I simply have found access to RS and have witnessed at conventions what makes Boba Phat a very good article for Wikipedia to include. I am well aware that my stance meets the guidelines of non-controversial edits, and given that i have no outside agenda other than to add to Wikipedia a topic which has proved to be interesting in the media, I find that WP:COI does not come into play. In fact, until I learned about Boba Phat's impact on the niche cosplay scene, and continually came across media content and celebrity mentions of the subject, I too would have had little knowledge of his notability among this genre. SheighZam (talk) 04:58, 24 October 2009 (UTC)  SheighZam (talk) 04:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * One final note (because reading that back, I felt my tone was still mildly clouded by frustration) and then I think bygones should be bygones: I want to thank you (again) for your attempt at mediation. I am impressed with Wikipedia & the vast policies contained within. I also welcome your altruistic intention to keep the peace. I do not want to stir the pot. I simply want to play nice, educate myself & not be influenced by any subjectivity regarding any particular article, be it one I started or anyone else's. Anyway, I just wanted to thank you again for remaining neutral & helping guide me towards a better understanding of Wikipedia as a whole. I think your presence around here is one of the reasons I may just hang around a bit more & see how I might become a better editor myself and not let one misinterpreted situation fluster me or scare me off. Thanks, Viriditas, and I hope you enjoy a wonderful weekend =•) SheighZam (talk) 07:05, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No worries, SheighZam. One thing that might help is to join a WikiProject (or two or three) that fits your interests.  That way, you will always have a group of editors to rely upon for input and collaboration.  It's also a great way to dive right in and learn about how Wikipedia works.  Right off the bat, I can tell you might be interested in WikiProject California (Southern California task force), WikiProject Comics and perhaps a few music-related projects.  Feel free to contact me with any questions. Viriditas (talk) 07:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Bobaphat dt small.jpg
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AfD nomination of Boba Phat
An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Boba Phat. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Notability and "What Wikipedia is not").

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Boba Phat
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