User talk:Shhhnotsoloud

Frittole/Frittelle
Hello, why have you removed the templates that I put up to propose the merger of Frittole and Frittelle? – El Mono 🐒 (es.wiki account) 13:15, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello. Because the tags had been there for over a year, with no supporting statement from you or anyone else.  If you want to try again, then please do, but in accordance with Merging you should first create a discussion on either Talk page explaining why a merge is required. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 15:02, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

ALCAPA
Thanks for fixing my edit on ALCAPA. My eyes must have ben crossed! Leschnei (talk) 11:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * You're welcome ;-) Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:48, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

"C-diff" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect C-diff and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 14 until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Mdewman6 (talk) 01:56, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

removal of disambiguation hatnotes
I am alarmed that you are going round removing hatnotes that enable encyclopaedia users to go to a disambiguation page if the article they have found is not what they want. Why on earth do you think these are not needed? I have reverted you on Brest, France - and this gives a good example of why the hatnote is needed. Given that Wikipedia is full of links to the wrong article, it is important to point out to the reader that there is a disambiguation page. It is also helpful to the reader who chooses one option on the disambiguation page, but then thinks they have the wrong one, to navigate back (relevant on some mobile devices).

Cany you identify any actual harm done by the hatnotes you are removing? If there is none, why not leave them there? ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 13:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:NAMB – I referred to it in my edit summary – It is usually preferable not to have a hatnote when the name of the article is not ambiguous. "Brest, France" is not ambiguous (there's only one Brest in France), there are no ambiguous redirects that target it, and it is not a good example of why a hatnote is needed. No-one is going to navigate to Brest, France if they wanted Brest, Belarus, for example. If they didn't know what Brest they wanted they'd land at Brest, the disambiguation page. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:47, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for the mistaken rollback
I had just modified my Twinkle preferences and mistakenly rollbacked your edits on Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 8. Sorry. &#8212;CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 14:38, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Hatnote condensing
Hi, if you're condensing hatnotes like you did here, there's a better way: please consider using hatnote group to condense hatnotes rather than manually specifying the hatnote with hatnote or other tricks. This method preserves the standard forms for hatnotes (including any integral error-checking) while still achieving less bloat at the top of the article. Hopefully this is helpful, {&#123; Nihiltres &#8202;&#124;talk&#8202;&#124;edits}&#125; 19:44, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
 * That's very helpful: thank you. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:49, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

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Template:Vajrayana
Do you feel the need to solve the 60 links to disambiguation pages in Template:Vajrayana created by the link Kriyayoga? You pushed on to change that link, so it is more then reasonable to ask you to solve the mess created. The Banner talk 11:05, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * With thanks to who got there before me ;-) Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 20:18, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Shhhnotsoloud!


Happy New Year! Shhhnotsoloud, Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.

Abishe (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

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"Vinkov" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Vinkov and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. UtherSRG (talk) 16:40, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Pârâul lui Mihai
Hello, Shhhnotsoloud,

I hope you are doing well, this second week into 2023. I noticed that you didn't post a talk page notice to the page creator when you PROD'd this page for deletion. I'd like to encourage you, if you aren't already using it, to use Twinkle any time you tag a page for any kind of deletion (CSD, PROD, AFD/RFD/CFD/etc.). Once you set up your Twinkle Preferences to "Notify page creator", then Twinkle will post these talk page notices on your behalf and you don't need to worry about them. It has a lot of other great features that help with the administrative/reporting part of editing which you can explore.

If you are already familiar with Twinkle, well, I'm sorry for stating the obvious, just take this message as encouragement to always leave a talk page notice when you tag a page for deletion. Thank you and have a great year! Liz Read! Talk! 18:30, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Could you Help?
Hello Shhhnotsoloud, hopes you are good!

Could you help with the correct process of Disambiguating links, on São Paulo (state)? I recently need to revert some edition on the article and looks like other user was working on disambiguating links in the meantime. I don't know how to fix this to him. It looks like you have the knowledge to help.

thank you so much! B777-300ER (talk) 21:39, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi (and pinging ). You are trying to revert edits by Kauã Haock but you have used Restore to also revert edits by Rodw.  Rodw's edits were correct. You should revert your last edit and revert Kauã Haock's edits individually, or manually add back the work Rodw did.  I'm going to try doing that for you. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 21:57, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Some edits could not be undone. You'll have to do them manually. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 22:00, 29 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you so much! B777-300ER (talk)

Undone WP:BLAR at Agbiz; I have nominated it to AfD per the RfC
Hi Shhhnotsoloud, I have nominated the page Agbiz at Articles for deletion/Agbiz procedurally per the 2021 RfC on contested BLAR. My rationale for reverting the BLAR was that despite a lack of mention there seems to be a bit showing that Agbiz sees to be as shorthand for Agribusiness. Best! TartarTorte 20:08, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 20:14, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Please avoid hasty deletions
I just received your message on proposed deletion of CPIM (disambiguation), which I think I have created. But by the time I noticed your message, the page was already deleted. I might not have any issues with the deletion but since history is not available for deleted pages, I won't be able to tell. Please allow for more time for the stakeholders to review your proposals before (unilaterally) making decisions. Aravind V R (talk) 05:57, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Deprodding of Nothing from Nothing (disambiguation)
I have removed the tag from Nothing from Nothing (disambiguation), which you proposed for deletion. I'm leaving this message here to notify you about it. If you still think this article should be deleted, please do not add back to the page. Instead, feel free to list it at Articles for deletion. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by R. S. Shaw (talk • contribs) 05:22, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Dead Air move
Hi, I noticed that you recently moved Dead air (disambiguation) to Dead Air. Would you mind explaining why? I think that since there's already a page at Dead air, moving the disambiguation page to something similar would cause confusion, especially to users who don't understand that capitalization matters in article titles. RteeeeKed 💬📖 04:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello this is actually a typical case of WP:DIFFCAPS. "Dead air" in sentence case or lower case is not ambiguous: there's only one article about it. "Dead Air" in title case is the ambiguous term. There's no primary topic so the disambiguation page is at the base name, Dead Air, and both Dead Air (disambiguation) and Dead air (disambiguation) redirect there. "Dead air" is listed at the top of that disambiguation page as a common use. This is quite common and WP:DIFFCAPS gives other examples. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:08, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I see, carry on. RteeeeKed 💬📖 17:13, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Hylidae
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Nomination of Shubham Sharma for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Shubham Sharma is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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I don't disagree with moving the hatnotes to the see also section
For the List of fictional intersex characters‎, List of horror television series with LGBT characters‎, List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters: 2020s‎, List of feature films with transgender characters‎, List of transgender characters in television‎, List of bisexual characters in anime‎, List of lesbian characters in anime‎, List of fictional asexual characters‎, List of fictional pansexual characters‎, List of lesbian characters in animation, List of bisexual characters in animation‎, List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters: 1960s–2000s‎, List of LGBT characters in radio and podcasts‎, List of made-for-television films with LGBT characters, List of comedy television series with LGBT characters‎, List of bisexual characters in television‎, List of gay characters in television‎, List of fictional lesbian characters‎, List of lesbian characters in television‎, History of LGBT characters in animation‎, and List of animated series with LGBT characters‎ pages, along with others.

I was under the impression that some of those hatnotes (I didn't create all of those on all of these pages, but a good deal of them) were ok, and no one ever said anything different. Perhaps I'll read WP:HN to clear up any misconceptions in the future. The only issue is that "see also" sections may be bulky and may need to be cut down. Historyday01 (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Heelo Hatnotes are intrusive: they impede the reader in getting to where they want to be. They should be short and are only required "to help readers locate a different article if the one they are at is not the one they're looking for". Happy editing! Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:20, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Yeah, many of those articles I only added hatnotes because I thought it "made sense", and realize what you do now, that hatnotes can be intrusive. So you are right that they should be short and only used sparingly. Historyday01 (talk) 17:37, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

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CS1 error on Jerome
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Nomination of Sankar (writer & director) for deletion
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Proposed deletion of Mountain people (disambiguation)


The article Mountain people (disambiguation) has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: " left unchecked for two months; even though I could add the book, currently it doesn't have an article, and I feel like hatnotes and WP:SMALLDETAILS would be enough to distinguish them. The Ik can be added as a hatnote as well."

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Smoke over Birkenau (disambiguation)
Mhm. Technically you are correct, but in the long we will have to restore it, the other books seems notable too. it:Il fumo di Birkenau. WP:BEFORE suggests sources exist. I might stub it, but I am busy. Who else... User:Buidhe? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Removal of subheadings and main article links on both Kristianstad school attack and Eslöv school attack
Hello, I was confused on your decision to remove Subheading text and links to main articles on both of these pages. I was hoping you could explain your reasoning, I'd also like to mention I appreciate you moving Kristianstad School attack to "Kristianstad school attack".

Kind regards, Salutations25 (talk) 14:34, 5 September 2023 (UTC)User:Salutations25
 * . You should read WP:HATNOTE on where and how to apply hatnotes, together with Template:Main. I don't think even a properly-formatted main hatnote is appropriate. You should also refer to Manual of Style, specifically MOS:HEADINGS, and Manual of Style/Accessibility has helpful tips: "Do not skip parts of the sequence, such as selecting levels for emphasis; this is not the purpose of headings". Prose generally reads better if it's not broken up in to single-sentence paragraphs.

Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:11, 8 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I suppose I sort of understand, I am fairly new to making larger edits as in the past I mainly made minor edits using an IP. Thank you for these links, I'll need to read them.
 * Salutations25 (talk) 20:03, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Blockade of Germany - why I reverted
The vast majority of incoming links are directed to the World War I blockade which was known by that name, and the article was the primary topic until moved in response to Talk:Blockade_of_Germany_(1914–1919) which had no support but moved anyway. I will initiate a RM but this avoids a metric tonne of disambigation links in WWI articles. Links to the WWII article were already correct. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:49, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I know, but you can't just ignore an RM (which was properly constituted and received no opposition) because you don't like it. You're out of order: if your RM succeeds then revert me. Now please go back and undo your revert at Blockade of Germany because right now you're going to confuse readers who land there. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:56, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Dunkard's Bottom, West Virginia
Hello, Shhhnotsoloud,

Welcome to Wikipedia! I edit here too, under the username MicrobiologyMarcus, and I thank you for your contributions.

I wanted to let you know, however, that I have tagged Dunkard's Bottom, West Virginia for deletion, because it doesn't appear to contain any encyclopedic content. You may find our guide for writing quality articles to be extremely informative. Also, you may want to consider working on future articles in draft space first, where they cannot be deleted for lacking content.

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Question about redirect
Hi there! I have a query about this edit, where you deleted the ephebe disambiguation page and redirected the term to ephebos. Why did you do that? Would you be amenable to me reestablishing the page? MeegsC (talk) 17:03, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello Why would that be preferable to adding to or improving Ephebos (disambiguation) ?  Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 18:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, because Ephebe is the name of a lichen genus. Ephebos is not. MeegsC (talk) 23:35, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Good point. I've improved the hatnote at Ephebos. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:59, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks . That's an improvement, though there are other potential "ephebe" searchers that will also redirect to ephebos and have no idea how to get to the article they're REALLY looking for. I'd suggest you tweak the disambiguation note to let people know to check there for ephebe (and other sound-alikes) also. Though why you're making people take two steps to find an article when a disambiguation page would get them there in one is beyond me, really. MeegsC (talk) 21:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

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Duchy of Poland
I'd like to follow up on the topic related to the Duchy of Poland stub article, which was converted into a redirect to the History of Poland during the Piast dynasty article. I would like to restore and expand this article because from around 1031—1076, 1079–1138, and 1138–1227 the Duchy of Poland was in existence when the Kingdom of Poland was fragmented. Also, the Civitas Schinesghe article, which describes the earliest years of the Piast dynasty would only pertain to 966-1000, after which we see clear historical references to the Prince/Duke of Poland or Principality/Duchy of Poland. Please advise if I can revert your change to redirect and start to expand the Duchy of Poland article. E-960 (talk) 15:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Improvements are always welcome! Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Róbert Gragger moved to draftspace
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"Anglican Church" listed at Redirects for discussion
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NmWT
You probably already know this but it appears that NmWT has renamed themselves and retired. Not exactly the outcome I wanted but I thought it may be of interest to you in case you didn't know. AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 01:08, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 16:15, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Lengthy hatnote rant
Hi,

so, I'm working on a project that involves a lot of navigating from near-miss to intended articles via dab links, and I'm coming to realize that I generally like how dab pages are being written but generally dislike how hatnotes are being written.

Ugh! This type of notice needs to be as short as possible to be as sweet as possible; pointless duplication isn't as bad as it would be in the article body... no, it's worse!

I've been trying to trim the bloat and sprawl as I go, and the workarounds I've come up with are very much along the same lines as yours - stumbling upon one of your

ones was particularly nice, because I'd been intending to use that phrasing for a while but, never having seen anyone else do so, never quite had the nerve to. Much appreciated!

For multiples, my current favourite pattern is to use like so (real cross-linked use cases this time):

(Heh, looks like I missed the title markup there, but never mind, for these intents and purposes.) It's about as short as the grammatical structure allows, and what may be even more important is that the information structure is consistent that way. I suspect the vast majority of users are familiar enough with Wikipedia hatnotes that they rarely really read them, but instead take in the crucial words, meaning "album" and "film" in the first case, at a glance, and mentally discard the rest as filler. This is facilitated by reproducing the placement and punctuation predetermined by the qualified "(album)" link for the unqualified one, IMO. (ETA: For applying this to a more complex case, see Funeral.)

Anyway, to get to my main point, my impression is that bad hatnotes along the lines of my first "2024 Some Artist album" example are as common as they are not only because editors adopt each others' bad habits, but also because there are underlying systemic issues. Like, MOS:DAB explicitly says to "avoid descriptions that simply repeat information given in the link", using


 * "Dark Star" (song), a song

as a how-not-to example. WP:HATNOTE similarly starts out by saying stuff like "should generally be as concise as possible" and "lead text, not the hatnote, should explain what the article is about", but then uses

as its first how-to example, instead of actually implementing those ideas and reducing it to

Now, with phrases as short as these, even I don't believe it makes much of a difference in an article. But in a guideline, the bar should be set a bit higher, and first laying out what "should" be and not be, only to then follow up with examples that don't really adhere to those "shoulds", strikes me as, um, sub-optimal?

That said, I reckon at the true root of the problem are the templates themselves. The -type requires a description, and when none is needed, placeholder phrases like "other uses" are inserted. The -type doesn't allow for a description, so when one is needed, it has to be added via the freeform "text" variants and parameters.

It stands to reason that this is precisely the wrong way 'round, surely. "For" is typically used for stuff that has the same name, and so needs a qualified title (like "Turkey (bird)"), which takes care of the description. "Distinguish" is typically used for stuff that has a merely similar name, and so doesn't need and therefore doesn't have that conveniently descriptive qualifier built in. Plus, mentioning the potential for "confusion" in the latter's very wording, but then failing to reduce it by supplying additional information, seems outright wrong-headed.

The sense I'm getting from all this is that people somehow settled on those phrasings early on, and then let their respective grammatical structures decide for them where information should and shouldn't go. Thus putting the cart before the horse, as it were.

Finally and even more fundamentally, I don't think I agree with the implicit notion that because hatnotes are part of proper articles, they need to be in proper prose, as opposed to the fragmentary style that's fine for dab pages. Functionally, hatnotes work like miniature dab sections, and by that reckoning, the information should be presented in a more rather than less compressed form than on a full page.

Okay, I think that's everything I meant to cover - here's hoping I had you mostly nodding in agreement, as opposed to nodding off! :P

- 2A02:560:5829:B000:99D:3DCE:4DAE:FDB (talk) 22:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello. Yes I do agree with everything you say. It's just that trying to change guidance by consensus is painful and sometimes has unintended consequences, so like you I proceed in accordance with guidelines but conservatively, or minimalistically if you like. Personally I would rarely use the 2nd parameter of about, but very often use the  facility in distinguish. Happy editing - and I would urge you to operate from a registered account rather than as an IP editor, which would give you more credibility and make it easier for you to receive Talk page comments: see Why create an account?. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:23, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Marcus Octavius
Hi, can you revert your move here? Marcus Octavius the tribune of 133 BC is only marginally better known than his homonym here. There is no primary topic for this name. T8612 (talk) 19:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * But I was guided by Marcus Octavius (name) which specifically says: "The most known member was the tribunus plebis in 133 BC...". So either he is the most known member, and his article is the primary topic; or there is no primary topic and the (name) page is moved to the base name. Is that latter option what you advise? The situation where the base name is a redirect to one or other of those pages is unacceptable. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:02, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * He is the most known member for the specialists of the period, not for the average Wikipedia reader, for whom they all are nonentities. There are very few Romans of the Republic that are primary topics, because they had a very limited number of first names, and things rapidly get confusing if we don't have (magistracy+year) after their names. In the case of Marcus Octavius, there is a homonym, also tribune of the plebs, who passed a law on the same topic a generation later. The (name) page should be turned into a disamb page. T8612  (talk) 10:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
 * . ✅ Thanks for your help. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 11:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

FYI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Kitchener%E2%80%94Conestoga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Kitchener_South%E2%80%94Hespeler

Not much this time, but it is the pattern. The Banner talk 12:19, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * . I know. So fix them! Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I leave cleaning up the mess to you, as you created them. The Banner  talk 12:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I did not create them. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 12:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe not the original dab-page, but with your revert you at least recreated the mess. The Banner  talk 12:37, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Juneau County
I'm not sure why you removed "Wisconsin" from Juneau County. US counties also include the state name, per WP:USPLACE. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:53, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry - fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 19:29, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Please use edit summery
Why did you revert - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AMy_God%2C_my_God%2C_why_hast_Thou_forsaken_me%3F&diff=1223178101&oldid=1223167436 ? Christian75 (talk) 00:12, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My mistake, I'm sorry. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:59, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Bank station (disambiguation)


The article Bank station (disambiguation) has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "Disambiguation page not required (WP:ONEOTHER). Primary topic redirect points to an article with a hatnote to the only other use."

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Frederick Newton (disambiguation) fixes
Hi Shhhnotsoloud. I saw you converted Frederick Newton (disambiguation) to a dab page and I had to look at what was I thinking! I think I intended to redirect it to Fred Newton, as I had added another article there, Frederick Robert Newton. That article was missing from the hatnote at Frederick Newton. It is now missing from the dab page you created. I didn't want to arbitrarily overwrite your change, just wanted to let you know my mistake. Thanks. Tassedethe (talk) 23:26, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi . I hadn't finished my train of thought either. I had intended to merge/redirect Fred Newton to Frederick Newton (disambiguation).  That OK with you?  Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 08:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, no problem. Tassedethe (talk) 14:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)