User talk:Shibbolethink/Archive 20

3 vs 2 is consensus?
Please explain to me how this RM discussion, where two were in favour and two against, with the latter putting significantly more effort and rationale in their argumentation, is considered consensus to move: Talk:S.M.A.R.T.. It seems to me that the discussion was merely a charade, in reality older and higher privileged editors simply made a decision and that was that. I think it at least should be relisted again. Regards. --Mango från yttre rymden (talk) 21:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Cc . For future reference, the closer's talk page or Move review is the standard way to challenge move requests. * Pppery * it has begun... 21:02, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey @Mango från yttre rymden, how's it going. The proper procedure for this kind of thing is to first go to the closer's talk page (@Shibbolethink in this case) and try to resolve it there. And then if that doesn't work, to head over to Move review and make a claim for why the close should be overturned. I'm going to move this over to my talk page and answer there. — Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 21:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay so here's my response. This is a consensus because, per WP:CONSENSUS, discussions are not decided merely by a vote, see WP:NOTAVOTE. The clarity of argument, strength of policy, procedures, and the amount it is convincing to uninvolved editors is how consensus is decided on wikipedia. In the case of this move, I had relisted it once, to try and gain more input. And the only input that was received (from an uninvolved editor, mind you) was in favor of the move. Next, as @Pppery pointed out in the discussion, it is true that WP:NATURALDIS supersedes WP:COMMONNAME in this case. And other editors agreed with them.

Avoiding ambiguity is one of the #1 things we do when we decide titles on wikipedia. We don't want visitors to end up on the wrong page, and we definitely don't want them to end up on the wrong page without an easy way to get to the right one. Hence, we have disambiguation pages for exactly this reason. This is a perfect example of how to use disambiguation pages. Multiple pages have S.M.A.R.T. as an acronym. And ACROTITLE tells us not to use the periods, but also WP:PRECISE tells us to use the most precise possible title to avoid ambiguity. Hence, the policies in this case favor the move.

These policy arguments were also the most influential on the uninvolved users who joined the discussion (e.g. @SMcCandlish). As to whether I should have relisted the discussion, WP:RM explicitly discourages second relists when it is unlikely a more robust consensus will develop. We had extremely little input in this discussion, it seems even my pings to related pages did not draw a lot of interest. So a relist would not have made sense. It was also clear to me that we had a consensus, from uninvolved input and clarity of policy arguments.

However, you are absolutely free to disagree, and pursue this further at Move review. Good luck and I hope you find what you're looking for here on wikipedia.— Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 21:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The Church of jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Hello. This is Jgstokes. I have been a Wikipedia editor for the last 15 years. Much of my work here has focused on articles about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the largest religious sect in the WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement. In my recent efforts to continue to improve that project, User:FormalDude has been helping me work through existing policy and make chages to that where we can. Changes are in the works for the Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints. I recently saw your good faith efforts to change the mid-sentence capitalization of "The" in the name of the Church. I am not familiar with the policies cited that led to the consensus to use the lower casse "t" in the name of the Church in mid-sentence. So I wanted to reach out to you on this, based on FormalDude's recommendation. The Church itself is an incorporated entity, and all sources covering developments relating to the Church use the upper case in reference to the full name of the Church. With that in mind, whenever you are able to do so, could you provide me with a more complete explanation on the decision that was made? I have no desire to be a nuisance, but I was unable to participate in the original discussion on this, so I would like some clarification on these points. Take whatever time you might need to reply. I look forward to dialoguing more with you in the future on this. Thanks for your time. Jgstokes (talk) 08:19, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I understand the concern, and also why the LDS official church-made style guide uses the capital T in its official name, to differentiate itself from other LDS churches in the early movement, to show its followers it is the "one true Church", etc. I honestly and truly do not care much either way, but I do think it's important that wikipedia be WP:CONSISTENT for all religious movements (and indeed, all movements, groups, and corporations), and treat no particular such group as different or special. Indeed, there is no organization or movement or company for which we allow mid-sentence capitalization of "the", even if it is part of the proper name of that group or entity. This is because, in wikipedia parlance, definite articles in mid-sentence usage are not part of proper nouns, basically ever. There are a few notable exceptions, but that's the general rule of thumb, and the community has decided that the name of the LDS church is not one of those exceptions.See, for example, WP:THE and the similar situations we have for The Coca-Cola Company (List of assets owned by the Coca-Cola Company) or The Crown (List of current viceregal representatives of the Crown).I understand why the LDS leadership would want to have this capitalization, I understand why these are the rules for the church itself. But on Wikipedia, we have conventions and rules which seek to encyclopedically describe all of our content in the same neutral manner. And that requires us to sometimes use wikipedia-specific conventions to the great consternation of the things, organizations, and people that we cover here. — Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 13:52, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

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Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1985 book):
I see you considered the capitalization here. What made you decide to go back to the lower case the?Naraht (talk) 14:57, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Met a user who disagreed, so WP:BRD — Shibboleth ink  (♔ ♕) 05:28, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

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