User talk:Shocktm/Archive 2007

List of sovereign states
Thanks for the heads up. :-) Khoikhoi 08:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, I've seen your re-introduction of Transnistria at List of sovereign states. Would you care to participate in the discussion, too? Dpotop 09:26, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have put in a comment which listed 3 proposals. It seems that keeping the status quo is the one preferred by the majority of people. Unfortunately people are still trying to change it without consensus.-- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 02:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Hong Kong and Macau
Here talk:Macau and talk:Hong Kong--Ksyrie 23:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC) and here talk:List of countries and talk:List of countries by continent--Ksyrie 23:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You have no consensus on the changes you are making. Wikipedia has used the definition of country to include sovereign states, dependencies, and areas of special sovereignty for a long time now and as such Hong Kong and Macau are countries. They have their own Telephone Codes, Internet domains, currency (HKD), etc. - things that countries have. Please do not make changes until you get a consensus and if you do change all dependencies and areas of special sovereignty, not just Hong Kong and Macau.-- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 00:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Read something about List of special entities recognized by international treaty or agreement and compaing the Åland and Svalbard with Hong Kong and Macau.And don't try to revert more than 3 times,you risk to break the WP:3RT.--Ksyrie 00:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If you read the history of that page you would see I have edit the page and therefore know it well. It does not change the matter. Hong Kong and Macau are considered countries by the ISO, ITU, IOC, etc. -- (Shocktm | Talk  | contribs.) 00:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, I recommended you to read the Country,which define the nature of country accepted by most people.You may see some Dependent territory as country,but it is not universally accepted.--Ksyrie 00:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You should look at List of countries and talk:List of countries where this has been discussed ad nauseum. On that page and elsewhere country has a different meaning than what you prefer it to mean.-- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 00:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, so I wish someone to change the List of countries to List of countries and dependencies which give a more clear and non ambiguous definition. I am sure the definition for some article are quite disputable, but considering in the Country which clearly talk about a territory of sovereignty, so I think it is not descent to place Hong Kong and Macau as Country which will definitely called the ambiguity.--Ksyrie 00:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You put in a remark on talk:List of countries to discuss that which is good place to start. If you See Lists_of_countries, you can see how many articles in Wikipedia define a country in the broader term and how the proposed change will effect a large number of articles. (There are also Templates that are affected)-- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 02:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

List of countries
This is not to condemn, but to simply ask:
 * 1) The reason I added Tamil-Eelam was for consistency, because I found it in the states lacking general international recognition. You'd have to erase it from there as well. But why, are there any new developments? It still has sway over a territory comparable to most of the others in the list.
 * 2) Why this? It was nicer stylistically - everything arranged by country, as for dependent territories. I am not aware of any law or treaty making the status of Aland and Hong Kong identical. Think of easiness for the reader to read the information. :Dc76 00:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * With regard to 1) Tamil-Eelam should not be listed as there is no Tamil government. Trying to maintain List of Countries, List of unrecognized countries, List of sovereign states, and Dependent territory has been like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic of late - with many authors adding/deleting data based on their POV and ignorance. With regard to 2) I am rather conservative in changing data/formatting of a list - So I like the original way more, but I am not stuck on it. The only issue with your way is that Aland and Svalbard do not have a type in from of them like the Chinese SARs. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 00:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) if this is the status (i'm ignirant of the subject, except for occasional stuff in the media), then to erase makes sense. Are you aware that List of sovereign states is being considered for merging into LoC, since it was discovered that LoSS simply repeats 193 + 9? Some people might try therefore to bring more info like capitals, official names, etc into LoC.. Will perhaps need some good judgement and appeals to step down the rush to modify the format in LoC. I don't have an oppinion about the format. IMHO, the fewer lists the better - as a reader I'd have patience with 3-4 lists maximum, after which I'd start cursing the author (well not literally, but i would not be happy for the non-clarity). 2) i don't know about their status (I thought I would learn, not have to tell), it was just stylistical. Can you explain me, how are they different than the 38 dependent territories (just for my personal general culture)? 3) I understand now the logic of your edits. Sorry that my edit changed too much, I did not mean to create confusion and extra work. :Dc76 01:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

CIA WFB
Thanks for the heads up. As we speak, i'm getting ready to work on the main Factbook article and a few other articles that need the new data. - Thanks, Hoshie 21:54, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Jaber Castle
Dear AtilimGunesBaydin and Shocktm,

First of all I would like to thank you for your contributions to title Caber Kalesi (Jaber Castle).

I would like to draw your attention to a point about the information I have submitted, but changed by yourself.

I had typed that Jaber Castle is an "independent territory" of Turkey. I am now aware of that I should use "sovereign territory of Turkey". Shocktm claims that "the castle is a property of Turkey with rules like an embassy". But it is not...

Article 9 of Ankara Treaty of 1921 rules that, the castle is a "mülk" of Turkey. Yes, one of the meanings of the word "mülk" is "property". But when it is under an old international treaty about "lands" it means the sovereign territory. As we know from the Turkish saying, "Adalet mülkün temelidir", the word mülk refers to different meanings, including the word "state", "country" and "territory". For example, the lands of the Ottoman State was also called "Osmanl mülkü". So, Article 9 of the Treaty of Ankara which says: "Türk mülkü" for the Jaber Castle exactly means "Turkish land", not "Turkish property".

Consequently, I would like to insist that those I had typed which mentions that the castle is an exclave and sovereign territory of Turkey are true information, in accordance with international law. It is very different than a status of an embassy or another foreign mission territory.

(As another instance, everybody thinks that "air bases" of Britain in Cyprus island are just air bases; like the USA air bases in various countries. However, air bases of Britain in Cyprus are also sovereign territories of the UK.)

Kind regards.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cercersan (talk • contribs).

Vimy is not an enclave?
Why do you think that Vimy is not an enclave? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dukeofalba (talk • contribs) 06:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See Vimy Memorial and Enclave and exclave which indicate that the memorial is Canadian property in France and not sovereign territory of Canada (which it would need to be if was an enclave). Other war memorials and cemeteries in Europe have the same status. -- (Shocktm | Talk | contribs.) 00:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sovereign Military Order of Malta
Stop undoing my work on this article. This is important background info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Walden (talk • contribs) 00:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)