User talk:Shtove

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Elizabeth I
Saying that Elizabeth's religious views were held only to "suit her own ambitions" is ipso facto non-neutral. The description of the manner in which the Irish insurrection of 1583 was put down is not neutral, insomuch as it paints the English as cruel and oppressive. "Appalling" is inherently not a neutral phrase. I hope that these explanations suffice; if not, we could discuss it further. -- Emsworth 00:34, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Atilla
Damned if I remember. On the Village Pump or Reference desk, I believe someone had typo'd something, and I made a cheap pun. I occasionally do that, usually with an edit summary like "Frivolous remark" or "even less useful response". -- Jmabel | Talk 23:50, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Protestant Dissenters
On the precision of the term 'dissenter': yes and no. I think it's a loaded term, even without the historical connotations; it places one side rather than the other as those who dissent, seeming to imply that the thing they dissent from is the generally-accepted truth. I don't think it adds anything to the statement "[the claim] is disputed on grounds of doctrine by Protestants" to add that the Protestants are "dissenters" - the statement already says they disagree with the claim; adding that they are "dissenters" merely seems to give them a particular characterisation.

On the term 'Protestant': I, and the 'Protestant' article, think that Protestant now fairly unambiguously refers to members of the Christian movement which divided from the Roman Catholic Church at the Reformation; the third major branch of Christianity along with Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. I'm not sure I see that as particularly vague; and I think it is the case that all Protestants would dispute the Roman Catholic Church's right to sole use of the description "Catholic".

On the term "Catholic Church": ideally, yes, each article would have a single, simple, uncontroversial title. Unfortunately, the organisation referred to by this article prefers a title - "the Catholic Church" - which makes a claim which is disputed; the 'Catholic' article has a good examination of the different claims on the term Catholic. I'm sure that, for example, the Palmarian Catholic Church would also like to be called "the Catholic Church", while most if not all Protestant denominations would claim that no single denomination has the right to call itself that. I don't think it's compatible with Wikipedia policies for Wikipedia to declare that one contenter is "the Catholic Church", even if it is the largest body that claims that title. Those outside the organisation usually distinguish which particular "Catholic Church" this is by prefixing it with "Roman". Wikipedia policy on naming is:

"Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

What is specifically not mentioned is what the body itself would like to be called. It is of interest, and should be noted, that the body would prefer to be called the Catholic Church; but I don't think it's Wikipedia's place to award it that title given that a large proportion of people would dispute its right to it.

On Talk:Roman Catholic Church: I read it; I post to it; unfortunately, it's far too long and little-read. I've read most of it, but there's no consistent thread of debate, just a huge array of unconnected comments. For example, I made a proposal on there (about the Terminology section) several months ago; but I haven't yet carried it through, because, even though it received no objections on the talk page, I have no confidence that the majority of editors will have read it. Nothing ever seems to be decided there; it probably needs a purge and restart from scratch.

TSP 14:44, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Spanish Armada
Thank you for your note. Leicester point taken but he was back in England by 1588. I hope the article contribution is not too forthright but religion is always a problem. When it enters into a topic, an attempt to point out truths will appear unbalanced to those whose minds are set in another direction. :-) (RJP 13:29, 23 September 2005 (UTC))

''>Your point ... should be relegated to the discussion page'' I do not think so. The points of view in the Spanish and English/Dutch articles are too different/opposing to be brushed under a discussion page. I hope you will agree after you read the Tergiversaciones históricas ("historical distortions") section in the Spanish Wikipedia Armada article. I have renamed the section from "Discussion" to "Point of view". MH 20:30, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Black Legend
Hi, Shtove. My contributions to es:Leyenda negra were mainly objections. I find the article in w:es extremely POV, and I have argued with Ecelan to the point. I think the fact that the very term was developed by a conspicuous ultra-Catholic and pan-Hispanist revisionist should be clearly mentioned in the introduction, and that more attention should be paid to the usage of the term by the historians of the Franco regime, more interested in resuscitating an anachronical idea of Spanish grandeur and nobility than in historical precision. I don't think the English version is much better, unfortunately.

Nevertheless, I am no historian. I think your best bet in this regard is es:User:Cinabrium, who is far more competent on the matter than I am. He has a homepage here, he writes some mean English, and he's certainly up to the task. Best, Taragüí 13:48, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

(copied from User talk:Jmabel) Thanks for your vigilance. It's a significant propaganda subject, so I'm trying to get fair Spanish input to make the article more or less accurate and balanced, in both languages (I dont' speak Spanish, and my knowledge of the subject is marginal) - hopeless perhaps, but can you assist? The end of the discussion page shows my attempts. Are the people I'm talking to the same ones you keep reverting?shtove 23:39, 17 October 2005 (UTC) (end copied passage)


 * Who knows, since the people I find myself reverting are almost uniformly editing anonymously. The comment above indicates that Taragüí would probably have objections that would go well beyond those I've raised, but in the same direction.


 * FWIW, I read Spanish well and write it decently. If you have specific material you want translated, I'm glad to help (though a bit busy), but I agree with Taragüí that the Spanish-language Wikipedia article won't be much help: unsurprisingly, it is even more uniformly apologist for Spain.


 * What the article really most needs is references and citations, so that no one has an excuse to keep throwing away large portions of it that they happen to like, selectively invoking the claim that the material is uncited. And this is a topic where I suspect that the online references will mostly be mediocre: for a controversy that raged largely in historians' journals, someone needs to do some library research.-- Jmabel | Talk 00:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Brian Boru
Thanks for your input and don't give up just yet :) See comments on Talk page - FrancisTyers 00:39, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Columbus in Galway
The info was related to discussion on Christopher Columbus, and whether there was any evidence to support the saga that he learned about Hy Brasil in Galway. See Talk:Christopher Columbus. --Red King 18:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

(btw, while I'm here, it is not true to say that Protestants are Dissenters. Only Presbyterians, Quakers, Baptists (along with Catholics) are - the dissent is from acceptance of the Supremacy Act and the Book of Common Prayer. --Red King 18:04, 31 October 2005 (UTC))

Redirect
You can move pages with the "Move" feature :) I hope I didn't cause an edit conflict when moved it. Nice article, BTW. Alensha 23:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Ian Paisley
No problem, the unverified info can probably be deleted, since it appears to be a very weak conspiricy theory, not even notable since its not widespread.

You might like to look over Cite_sources/example_style and Template_messages/Sources_of_articles/Generic_citations for some hints on how to format references. --Barberio 02:21, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

On Basques, Milesians, Welsh and Irish...
Please accept my apologies for a delayed reply. I've been on (short) vacations, far away from computers (or even TV or newspapers -- and yes, there is a life beyond the Internet :D).

Getting back into the issue: tracing the roots of a people is usually a hard task, particularly when one does not have written documents. Modern science gives us two significant tools: genetics and linguistics. If a people is essentially an identity (common culture, common traditions, self-recognition of "belonging to"), the latter tends to be more useful than the former. But both of them can (and indeed do) give us good clues.

From linguistics, it is today generally accepted that Basque (Euskara) is an isolated language. It is believed that Euskara was part of a more extended pre-indoeuropean linguistic conglomerate (a family of languages, perhaps?) also represented by the longtime extinct Aquitanian language. The words Gascon and Basque have the same root, since the Romans called the tribes living in that area uascones- Archaelogical evidence shows that Basque ancestors were living more or less in their current settlement area, i.e. between the Adour and Ebro rivers.

From genetics, we know some interesting (and curious) things. Among all peoples, Basques have the highest prevalence of both type O blood and Rh negative factor. Basques with O- blood are 27% of the population, against a 7% average for people of European descent[*]. This fact has given grounds for some speculative theories: areas known to have been occupied by the Cro-Magnon man (as the Atlas Mountains of Morocco and the Canary Islands) show a very high incidence of Rh-, and this is often cited. together with skull features, as a proof of the Cro-Magnon origin of the Basques.

If we try to get the mythical Milesians into historical context, we could say that the legend is an account of (one of the?) indoeuropean wave(s) moving westwards. By all accounts, Milesians were Celts. Protocelts appear in Central Europe (Urnfield and Hallstadt cultures) between 1500 and 1000 BC, contemporarily with the migration of Protoitalics to Italian Peninsula, the rise of the Vedic civilization in Punjab (Northern India) and the fall of the Micenic civilization. Between 1000 and 500 BC Celtic languages spread over Central and Western Europe, and Celts reach British Isles not before the second half of the 1st millenium BC (see also Celtiberians). There is no reason to assume that those Milesians were Basques; it is however possible that they could have departed from the mouths of the Adour (today's Bayonne), coming from Celtic areas in today's Southern France.

With regard to genetic kinship between Basques, Welsh and Irish, I've not found the reference here in WP. Some form of correlation is however possible, so please let me speculate a little bit about it. Today's Irish and Welsh peoples are of Celtic origin, but a lot of intermixing exists. Basques are not Celts, but a lot of intermixing with neighboring Celtic peoples (as Galicians) exists too; in fact, Basque "ethnicity" is not defined as belonging to a certain genetic heritage, but by the sharing of a common language: Euskaldunak ("the Basques") are "Euskara-speaking people". Their land, Euskal Herria, is "the land of those that speak Euskara".

I hope this (unordered) notes help. If you have any further questions, please contact me (in my Wikipedia en español talk page). Best wishes from Cinabrium 02:06, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Note:
 * [*]BTW, my mother and most of her family are O-. I'm A+, and am alive just because I was her firstborn child. Had I been the second, Wikipedia would have had one less editor (see Rh disease).

islands Voyage
It does not link to an article yet because it has not yet been witten! But it is the name of the expedition: Google ["The Islands Voyage" expedition Azores] --Philip Baird Shearer 00:24, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Irish 16C Articles
Hi Shtove, thanks for all your good work on the tudor Ireland articles up to now. I want to have a really good set of articles on early modern Irish history here, so I've also been looking at the biographies of people from that time. The Hugh O'Neill article is coming along, which is good because it was left in really bad state until recently. Likewise the Hugh Roe O'Donnell article. How about a category people of the time eg "Tudor Irish People" or 16th century Irish people"?

I'm not happy about the Florence MacCarthy article at the moment. It seems to be far to long to me and clouded in detail, which the average reader could never absorb. I may have mentioned before that I wrote an MA thesis on this topic, so its a bit close to my heart! I am tempted to re-write this article completely, but I want to run it by you first. (Chapters of the MA can be sent by email if you are interested btw! :) )

Also, I've made some changes to Tudor re-conquest of Ireland recently. What I want is to have a thorough but fairly concise account of the main trends in English policy in Ireland and the Irish response to them. Do you think anything has been missed out? You might also like to have a look at Early Modern Ireland 1536-1691 for the same reason - is anything important missing?

Another project that I have in mind is the starting of articles on 16C battles in Ireland, including a category to contain the Nine Years War battles. I have my sights on battle of Affane, battle of Farsetmore, Siege of Smerwick Castle, battle of Clontibret, battle of Curlew Pass, battle of Moyry Pass. Help would be much appreciated. Jdorney 01:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Clontibret
Very good work. I've expanded it a bit with details from McCoy's "Irish battles", but your text is still the backbone of the article. I've also added an article on the Battle of Affane, whichyou mifght like to edit. Jdorney 01:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Good work on Affane. I would question though, whther its a good idea to quote Falls directly. For one thing, Fall' language is abit dated, for another thing, his writing usually echoes the state papers a bit too uncritically. Have most of those battle articles done now. Only Moyry and Smerwick left. Jdorney 22:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Doh! Apologies. Ok, well "espied" sounds strange to my ears anyway. Re the "rascals", I have no doubt that Fitzgerald used the term, but I think in modern terms it would mean "marauders", "looters", or "scavengers". Kerne would have done this, but also acted as scouts and skirmishers. Lennon's fairly brief account says that the Geralidines were caught in the river, I assumed this meant drowned. Fair enough. I don't really understand aht you mean about Coyne and livery. If you are asking what it means, it refers to the maintaining of private armies by Irish lords. The term itself comes from the combination of an Irish word for free quarter, coinnmheadh and the English word Livery, which means the colours or uniforms worn by a lord's retained soldiers. Jdorney 00:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Carrigafoyle
Excellent work. I wikified it a bit and added a sentence. We're nearly there on the battles front now. I have notes ready on the battle of Moyry Pass and intend to start it shortly. I have no detailed info on Smerwick however. Do you? Btw, have you seen battle of Farsetmore article and battle of Curlew Pass? Your input would be appreciated. Jdorney 19:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

History of Ireland
I don't like the "story" designation either, actually. It's bugged me since I first saw it. In fact, I'm preparing (after some discussion) to attempt a condensed rewrite of the whole intro that is more "intro" and less "highlights of Irish history". When I do that, I'll do my best to throw in some verbiage that acknowledges Ireland's interactions with the continent. Dppowell 17:15, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Richard Grenville - Trivia
In the Trivia section at Richard Grenville you added an anecdote about Gilbert. Does this belong under Grenville? The connection is not clear. Shouldn't it be under Gilbert, if anywhere? Also, how reputable is the source? Lambiam 09:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Anne Boleyn
Hi,

Please, next time if you edit a page and you see that it was last edited by an anonymous someone, check if they made good edits or simple vandalism. I had to restore 72.235.103.88's deletions one by one because simply reverting them would have deleted your later additions. Thanks if you pay attention to this. Alensha 17:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You are right about the reference to Thomas More, it was a bit POV, I tried to NPOV it without deleting the explanation why was Anne against him. The reference to Anne as a victim was in a quote from Retha Warnicke; it's her opinion not that of WP, as it is stated. The same about the word "fetus" (baby sounds better, but we shouldn't change quoted text.) regards, Alensha 19:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Pope Pius XII
I checked the article as you requested. It does appear that your edits have been reverted, but it appears that they were reverted by an anonymous editor, not by EffK. I may restore them. Robert McClenon 18:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I restored your edits. EffK has not been editing the article in the last few days, only flaming away on the talk page. Robert McClenon 19:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/EffK and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/EffK/Evidence and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/EffK/Workshop for background information. Robert McClenon 19:24, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * More like an oil well. A distant comet causes no pollution on the Earth. Robert McClenon 20:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Various articles
Hi, thanks for the comment. Some of my articles are related to my work. Others are related to stuff that I loved to read about in my teens. But actually many of the contributions I am most proud of are about subjects that I had never heard of before. I think that writing an article for Wikipedia does much more for me than for Wikipedia... All the best, Jorge Stolfi 01:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Curlews Pass
Looks good to me. I've put the Florence McCarthy thing on the long finger for now. Re Yom Kippur, there is no way in hell I would get involved in debates over Arab-Israeli history of any kind on wikipedia, life's too short. Jdorney 14:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Dia Duit
Hi there! Delighted to meet your acquaintence, Shtove, and am very much looking forward to reading your articles. There's not many people doing much on Irish history pre-1798, so contribuitors such as yourself are invaluable. Be sure do drop me a line. Cheers! Fergananim 21:47, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Old Countess
Sorry, didn't notice your first message. I reverted because "the Countess" and "the Earl" are incorrect &mdash; only Dukes and Duchesses are referred to by the rank alone, with all others being "Lord X" or "Lady X". And calling her "Fitzgerald" is wrong on two counts: (1) peers and peeresses are referred to by title, not surname; and (2) her surname was "FitzGerald", not "Fitzgerald". And Irish rules are entirely the same as English rules, since the Irish Peerage was instituted entirely by England (it's not like Scotland, which developed it separately and so developed its own quirks). Proteus (Talk) 17:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Return of the Man with No Name
Bingham was a very interesting charecter, and I'm sure I have some notes pertaining to him somewhere. If you do have any queries concerning his activities west of the Shannon I'd be delighted to help. At the moment I'm trying to create a comprehensive list of Irish Kings and Kingdoms, then work through them biographicly. You might also find this - http://celt.ucc.ie/publishd.html - a useful resources. As my health is irregular my input varies, but don't let that stop you asking me. Cheers! Fergananim 21:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Hitler and charisma
I corrected the article charismatic authority as per your request. I do not think that a statement in the summary about Hitler's charisma is appropriate. Though it should be mentioned somewhere in the article. Andries 13:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Anglo-Irish debate
Hello Shtove, I know you mainly contribute on Irish historical matters, and I wondered whether you have any guidance to offer on the use of the term Anglo-Irish in the opening paragraph of WP biogs. See my query at Talk:Anglo-Irish. Thanks -- Op. Deo 20:28, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

EffK
I don't think so. To my knowledge there are no WP articles on famous editors, are they? And he will anyway never tell. He always adhered to a "do ask, don't tell policy". Str1977 23:20, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

No offence at all. I just wanted to increase the chance of EffK not reading such suggestions. It will only lead to another rant. He will probably read it any way, but one can always try. I can assure you that he's not Schröder's ex-wife, neither Hillu nor her two predecessors. But I won't say more about it in the open because ... well, result as above. Cheers and Goodnight, Str1977 00:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Answer
Hi, you left a question for another user yesterday concerning the deletion of an article, and your question was deleted as well. The user did not wish to be rude, and would have answered privately if your e-mail facility had been enabled. However, you have stumbled across something confidential, concerning threats to another Wikipedian. Jimbo is aware of the situation. Hope that helps. KHM03 03:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Understood. Thanks.--shtove 17:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

From User talk:Anglius
Sir, what do you mean by claiming that Irishmen taught Englishmen how to speak their own language?--Anglius 04:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)--Anglius 00:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Apostrophes
I'm interested in 15th-16th century history generally - I've made quite a few petty tweaks to some Swedish articles as well. Nothing personal! —Serein 07:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Deutche Desmond
Indeed, I'm most flattered! Jdorney 16:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does seem to be based on the English langage article. There is now also a stub in Swedish!

Re the British Empire, I think there should certainly be a section on early modern Ireland in it, though i don't have the energy myself at the moment. Canny's Making Ireland British is good. Another useful book for the colonisation of Ireland is "Natives and Newcomers", a collection of essays, I can't remember the name of the editor right now though.

Re ideology, there's a compilation book called "Political Ideology in Ireland 1541-1641, edited by Harman Murtagh, which is very informative. Also there's a recent, somewhat off beat bok about writing in English on Ireland in the seventeenth century by Deana Rankin titled, "Between Spenser and Swift". For Irish language responses, a good place to start is Michelle O'Riordan's, "the Gaelic Mind and the Collapse of the Gaelic world". Also Brendan O Buachala has a book in Irish whose name I can't remmeber right now.

Other books would be more specific about particlar times and events. I like Murtagh's "Tyrone's rebellion" for the background on Hugh O'Neill and the outbreak of the Nine Years War. Ciaran Brady has a provocative but interesting take on 16c Ireland in th "The Chief Governors", where he emphasises the sincerely held belief of English governors in civil "reform" in the 1500s and why this collapsed into violence. Stephen Ellis' "Tudor Ireland" has loads of minute detail, but is not great for the bigger picture in my opinion.

Hope that helps, Jdorney 11:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Clint Eastwood
"Help appreciated. I hope you're in good health. Is your name Clint, by any chance?--"

Delighted you asked, though you might have to wait a while for me to do so as I'm still under the weather. And no it is'nt. Fergananim 14:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Maps ,Galway etc
Canny is still there alright, he's actually my supervisor! Hopefully he doesn't know how much time I waste on here. Re maps, I'm afraid i don't know anything about them except how to cut and paste them from other articles. Same with pictures. Jdorney 15:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Bruce Wars in Ireland
I've being doing some long-overdue edits to Edward Bruce, particularly under the headings "The Invasion of Ireland" and "Arrival and the Campaign of 1315". I began it because the original article was hopelessly wrong in many places, but am now wondering if what I am writing would be better suited as an article in its own right on the Irish Bruce wars? Fergananim 19:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hypatia

 * Oy Shtove, I just always say hoo-pah-TEE-ah, which solves the whole problem!
 * Yo, anonymous - many thanks (I think - what was the problem?). So hard T, with emphasis. But how does Hy turn in to Hoo? Ancient Greek? Or is it Irish-whiskey pronunciation? Oy - there's a bit on the Roman pronunciation of Veni Vidi Vici talk - weeni weedi weechi - wot u fink?--shtove 21:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Naming policy
Hi, shtove. I have more than a passing interest in your favourite area. I am, however, wondering why you anglicise all the names of sixteenth century Gaelic and Gaelicised lords when, for the sake of accuracy, the standard practice in Irish Historiography (e.g. K. Simms, Mac Niocaill etal) is to use the Irish version if they were culturally Irish but the anglicised version if they were not? That practice allows for Florence McCarthy's name to be anglicised, while conveying an equally accurate role for figures such as Brian Ó Ruairc, Ulliam Nuinseann, Fiacha Mac Aodha Ó Broin, Mac Muiris Mac Gearailt, and so forth. I fear that the reality of Ireland's diversity in the sixteenth century is not conveyed with your current policy. El Gringo 01:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Countess/Lady etc
Just a thought, but elsewhere when we have people correctly addressed in one form but much more famous by another we do the following.

Robert Stewart, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry, KG, GCH, PC (18 June 1769 – 12 August 1822), known until 1821 by his courtesy title of Viscount Castlereagh

I don't know the details of the Countess in question to dispute what she may have been called incorrectly but a 'known as X' after the formal usage may be the solutionAlci12 17:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

copyright
If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the GFDL-self tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, consider reading fair use, and then use a tag such as or one of the other tags listed at Image copyright tags. See Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion.

Nine Years War/ Cogadh na Naoi mBliana
First, the use of 'rebel' to decribe the native Irish does in fact imply that Irish resistance to English rule was unusual, was exceptional. The word in this context was designed to establish English rule as the norm in society. Ciarán Brady devotes some time to discussing this in his book on Shane O Neill/Seán an Díomais and points out that it was O Neill and his struggles which represented the norm in society and, if any group had been 'rebelling', it was the English government of Ireland which was rebelling against the norm. It is a thoughtless word for a professional historian to use; an acceptance of the English view of the time as fact. Second, because Irish-born worked in the English government doesn't make it less colonial, no more than Algerian-born Pied Noir working for the French made the French government in Algeria less colonial. In fact, native-born workers are part of every colonial government and all works on colonialism and settler-colonialism incorporate them into the structure of those types of government. Third, to claim that the government was 'Irish domestic' implies that domestic Irish concerns were at its heart. With just a flicker of thought towards the English attitude towards the Gaelic world, Ireland's majority culture, this is patently untrue. The refusal to allow even Irish-born Old English head the government confirms that in English eyes the nascent Old English community was not to be trusted in government (and they were not). It was a government which was fully controlled by the English, most especially from Sussex's deputyship, and to claim it was a 'domestic Irish' government is simply ahistorical. The resistance to English policies from 1556 to 1583, and the ultimate defeat of the Old English, confirms beyond doubt English colonial control over the government. El Gringo 13:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Martin Luther
I'd liked your suggestion. It set off a ... discussion. Why not stop by? --CTSWyneken 00:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * And we're off again! --CTSWyneken 19:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * YOur opinion on a catagory dispute at Martin Luther is requested. --CTSWyneken 15:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Elizabethan Ireland biographies
Hi Shtove. I suggested the rename from Category:Elizabethan Ireland biographies to Category:Elizabethan Ireland people (or one of the alternatives I listed) as I didn't think the term 'biographies' was right in this case, because it's a self-reference to the articles, rather than actually describing the content of the articles. You can probably best see what I mean by comparing Category:People (This category is for biographical articles) with Category:Biographies (This category is for articles about books that are biographies). If there is a consensus to rename, an admin will run through the pages with a bot to make the necessary amendments, so there shouldn't be any edit implications. BTW, Ryan is the guy that added my welcome message. All the best. - Nzd (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Shtove. Thanks for your message. If you'd like to contribute to the discussion, you can do so here. I will try to remember to notify category creators when suggesting renames in future. Apologies for not doing so this time. All the best. - Nzd (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

My user page
Thanks for your note on my user page. I have now made it look worse, as I added one more link, and didn't know how to format it, but I think it's better to leave it like that, and hope that someone else will fix it. I've sent a message to the guy I stole the page from, so he might be able to help. It's good to see some intelligent and reasonable comments at Hitler, by the way. AnnH ♫ 11:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Mercator
I am afraid I don't have other maps of Ireland or Mercator. Some time ago I was collecting maps related to 17th century Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. What I found is here - maybe some of the sites will have the maps you are looking for.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:45, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Re: Photo
Sure, it's GFDL so there's no restriction on its use within Wikipedia. The reason I requested something better is because it's badly scanned and due to the sunset it's not especially good for demonstrating what the islands look like. As for who took it, either me or my father, it was a long time ago and we were using the same camera, so I've forgotten. Joe D (t) 02:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Rockall
I've posted your Rockall photo in Spanish Armada in Ireland. Thanks. Do you have any other images that would be relevant there - ie. stormy west coast of Ireland?--Shtove 22:18, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice article! I'm heading out to sea next week and might get some pics of the north coast (can't promise stormy though! :) ), so I'll drop you a line if they're any good. Cheers. Anilocra 11:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Spanish Armada in Ireland
My compilments on a excellent article ClemMcGann 13:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

re the Museum - do drop in any Saturday or Sunday - If I'm not there ask for Philip Smiley. You might also consider diving associations ClemMcGann 09:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Presbyterian Church in Ireland
Hi, I left a reply for you here.  theKeith    Talk to me   12:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Irish Stubs
I've added a few more stubs, and hope to have a few more done before too long. Nothing too adventerious, but hopefully of interest. Knock yourself out. Fergananim 17:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Mac an Bhaird
 * Diarmaid Mac an Bhaird
 * Leabhar Cloinne Aodha Buidhe
 * Clandeboye
 * Mac Aodhagáin
 * Leabhar Breac
 * Murchadh Ó Cuindlis
 * Laidcenn mac Buith Bannaig
 * Leabhar Clainne Suibhne

Spanish Armada in Ireland
My proverbial hat's off to you! GREAT WORK! I especially like the photos, as far too many wiki articles are not well served in this department. I'll begin to add in little bits here and there, especially in relation to the west coast. It is well worthy of featured article status. My only advice at present would be tighten it up, make sure all the sub-headings are in right order, and go over the opening paragrah again. The bold print looks a bit odd where it is, and I think any reference to the Desmond Rebellion should be removed to the main text. However had'nt that ended back in the early 1580's? Minor quibbles, I stress. 8/10! Fergananim 21:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting reading, but could you please advise how you identified the ship that was wercked in Tralee Bay. My information, from the journals of the Kerry Archaeological & Historical Society - No. 23 (1990)"The Surrender of an Armada Vessel near Tralee; an exploration of the State's Papers by Brendan G McCarthy is inconclusive on the identity of the ship but states that it is a barrk (bark, barque) between 40 and 50 tons with 24 people on board. It was a small three masted vessel and would be called a Patax or a Zabra by the Spanish.(Fenitharbour) MOC 18:19, 12 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fenitharbour (talk • contribs)
 * This is why citation is so important. The details in the article come from the Graveyard book listed in the general sources at the end of the article: written by a journalist who didn't give precise citations in his own text and didn't supply an index, so it's not easy to cite text pages throughout the article. Google it to see if you can get a copy - short book, very good read, with a solid account of the politics. Judging by my knowledge of the original state papers of the period, it also seems reliable on those details of the shipwrecks. I've done my best with this, can do no more! You seem to have a good source, so please add it. All the best.--Shtove (talk) 21:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Countess of Desmond
She is up now. The "E" from "example" did not get cancelled out. The picture, I think, was originally in Muckross House. The Dublin Review articles on her will require MASSIVE re-writing of the article.

Smiley box
 Hi Shtove, In case you haven't seen it, I thought you might be interested in this Smiley box. Regards, Rfrisbietalk 18:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Bare bones
I saw your comment about a bare-bones version elsewhere. Good Idea. Difficult to implement. Agathoclea 22:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Hitler
Hi!

Yeah...I should have known better than to read an entry on the Life of Adolf Hitler on an open-edit site such as wikipedia.

There are clearly two main strands of people who use Wikipedia: 1)Those who want to achieve some form of self-glorification by seeing their name in lights. 2) Those who are thinking, 'This might be of use to someone else'.

I used to edit bits and pieces for Encyclopedia Britannica for a couple of years andI thus find all this subtle political manoeuvring very childish indeed.

Hitler was about as Christian as Ming the Merciless...and not quite as well dressed either.

To my mind there is a small clique of persons who wish to slam organisations such as the Roman Catholic Church through petty mided tactics. Although I am Catholic by birth it is not so much that which bothers me. The section on Hitler's religious beliefs on Wiki is dangerous; it seems to portray a man only half guilty of his own crimes by suggesting 'great forces' were at work to twist his mind.

I share Fest's objection to calling Hitler 'Evil' - it excuses his human actions by portraying him as being the pawn of some dark force.

But yes, I'll continue to repaste the quote I supplied from Mein Kampf indefinitely as the thrust of the existing subtleties is deeply offensive given the vast weight of material demonstrating Hitler despised christianity no less than he despised judaism.

Best,

Dave.

....and yes, I am in London!

("Baaaah!") :o) --Iamlondon 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Westward Ho
Hi Shtove. I don't have any particular doubts that Westward Ho! offers examples of the black legend or was influenced by it. But because the BL is such a hot button topic, we should adhere quite closely to the verification and NOR policies. I would say the same about the BL article itself. Nesbit 02:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I'm near a university library. If you can recall the sources, I can try to look them up. Nesbit 04:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Old English
Hey there, Our paths have not crossed much recently for some reason. Anyway, I have done some long overdue clean-up work on the Old English (Ireland) page. I wonder if you could have a look at it, as I'm sure you have some content of your own to add. I hope that we can rid the pae of its current cleaup status tag. I'm not really sure what to do with the second section, I don't quite get the point that whoever wrote it was trying to make. I hope all else is well. Jdorney 22:50, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Siege of Smerwick
Hi, I noticted a comment you made on this on another talk page. Unrelated to that comment, I set out to create a page on the Siege, and when writing the background info, it ended up as an article on the second Desmond Rebellions, with a section on Smerwick. I'm not a historian and I have left some comments on the talk page. Perhaps you could review --Rye1967 06:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you have since found my comments and questions on Talk:Second Desmond Rebellion, and yes I think and article on the Siege of Smerwick would be great but I don't have acess to any more info either. Whenever it does get created it will be easy to have it replace the paragraph in the Second R article, so in the meantime, I am making all the other articles point to there.--Rye1967 20:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Re Jdorney, co-operation IS better than un-discussed deletion, which is why I didn't like his blanket revert of my work without giving a reason, so that is why I have reverted his changes on this occasion, something I don't normally do. I have given him an explanation of my reasons, and I will discuss it with him. We may be squaring off!, but I don't engage in revert wars - a waste of energy. I can see that he has made a great contribution to WP
 * I have just now removed one item from the list of battles - the 1581 sack of Smerwick castle. I have been in the area a few times as a youngester and although aware of the fort, have never heard of a castle (although there is a reference to the castle of Feirter in the area). None of the articles mention a battle of 1581 either. --Rye1967 21:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I dont agree with your conclusion on the revert, but I will discuss with Jodorney, keep an eye on progress on our talk pages!! Interesting comment on the Azores massacre - as I was reading the Smerwick info, I was thinking that Rezalda (sp?) who was in the Spanish armada and was a Smerwick veteran must have been itching to have a go at the English forces again, it was many of the same guys - a cycle of revenge within a generation, as we have even seen in Northern Ireland. A time of great savagery but I wonder how much of our current-day standards we can apply when judging the behaviour.
 * There isnt (yet) a category of massacres, cause there were others, in other countries and those of Cromwell, and indeed on nearby Dursey Island on the Beara Peninsula --Rye1967 22:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

16C
Hi, re pictures, I'm afraid my technical expertise is still non existent. I'm going to have to change a few things on the Old English page, after a talk with El Gringo. I have a problem with the idea of "Norman rule" in Ireland. They may have orignially come from Normandy, but Ireland was annexed by the King of England and the old English settlers below the nobility were generally English.

Re the Desmond articles, to be honest I'm not too happy with cutting the original article to make a cut and paste one. I would prefer if we left the original as it was and then worked on comprehensive one on the second rebellion if people think its necessary. The point for me is that so few people know the history and background involved that it is best to have releatively short and clear articles rather than long and detailed ones. That's what I was going for when I wrote the article in the first place. I realise that I should have discussed this first with Ryle1967 before I reverted anything though.

Jdorney 19:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

2 questions
Hi Shtove, Don't know if you've been keeping up with the 2nd Desmond Rebellion article, I've more or less re-written it in the last few days. I have two questions you might be able to help me with.

First, what do you know about the story that Fitzmaurice offered the Kingship of Ireland to the Pope's illegitimate son? It sounds a bit far fetched to me and I can't find any other reference to it. This doesn't mean its not true of course.

Second, the info about 200 Spaniards being massacred near Naas. Likewise, I can't find any mention of this either. I'm mainly using Colm Lennon's 16th century Ireland as a source. I also have some notes from state papers on the final stage of the rebellion from my Florence MacCarthy notes and a couple of journal articles. Anyway, can you confirm that this actually happened, and when and where it happened?

Cheers, Jdorney 15:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Good work on the nephew thing. That makes a lot more sense.

Re the Naas question, the only reference to it I can find is in the History of County Kildare article here on wp. I find it rather odd that 200 Spanish soldiers (and I'm not sure Fitzmaurice had that many to start with) marched from Smerwick to Naas in 1579 and stayed there until 1580 when they were massacred. Apart from the lack of references, it just doesn't make sense. Why not stay in Munster in the heartland of the revolt? Would the English have left them alone for a year within 20 miles of Dublin? Doubtful. If they left in July 1580 to help Baltinglass aand O'Byrne, that would be a different story of course.

It does seem though, that there were a load of executions of Palesmen in Naas in 1581, executed for their involvement with Baltinglass. See http://www.catholicapologetics.net/pers_3.htm#Under%20Queen%20Elizabeth. In fact, it seems like there was a lot of Catholic martyrs during the Desmond Rebellions, mostly in the Old English community, something I was only vaguely aware of before. Maybe the article should refelct this?

How do you feel the Second Desmond Rebellion article is looking in general?

Hope you had a good feed incidentally! You do references like this. You have to have a

Charles Blount
1) The term "ruthless" is WP:WEASEL and not in the linked too article. 2) The whole sentence states that the war was ended due to the "ruthless scorched-earth" policy. This is inherently wrong. It played a part but the surrender and defection of O'Neill's allies over the preceeding years amongst other factors such as Kinsale and the Crown's Irish allies played just as big a role in the outcome of the war. 3) The way it is now worded is more than sufficient for an article that is not about the war, leaving the actual article on the war to detail it.

I hope you will not revert it again without actually looking at the detail of what was being said and implied in the article before my initial change.

Kind regards, Mabuska (talk) 11:42, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I note you went ahead and reverted it anyways regardless of the preceding comment which you didn't bother to respond too and with no justifiable reason for your revert. Mabuska (talk) 14:09, 6 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "undid revision that removed factual description of strategy" - one aspect of his strategy that was given WP:UNDUE weight. I've vastly expanded and improved the section with more details of Mountjoy's campaign in Ulster that involved him. Yes his scorched earth policy was an aspect but it was not the only aspect of his strategy or why O'Neill surrendered. Please try to keep a neutral point of view in such articles. In any regards the mention of his mass burning of crops is still there but in more context.Mabuska (talk) 16:14, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Signature
Hi, please go to Special:Preferences, scroll down to "Signature" and uncheck "Treat the above as wiki markup". Wikipedia signatures have to include a link to your user or talk page. – Thjarkur (talk) 22:57, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Nestingum has been accepted
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deleted edits on August_Kekulé
Regarding my recent deletion that you reverted on Kekule: "This is likely an example of the exercise of a particular imaginative state, involving homospatial and janusian processes, followed by stepwise logical thinking. "

I do not think that one persons speculation on the reasons behind someone dreaming could be regarded as encyclopedic content. These are somewhat cryptic and tangential to the story so I felt they did not belong. Since you appear to be the author of these edits it is somewhat conflicted of you to revert mine. I am happy to leave it to a third party to decide. NeedsGlasses (talk) 22:15, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Earls of Desmond: numbering (again)
Dear Shtove. I have moved Earl 15 -> 14 and earl 14 -> 13. I found that there was no 13 I saw the numbering in ODNB and just did. I had not seen the discussion on the Gerald FitzGerald tqlk page. Please forgive me for not having discussed this with you before. I will slowly work through the mentions of Gerald FitzGeral, 15th Earl of Desmond. There are 75 of these. Best reqards, Johannes Schade (talk) 21:20, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Homospatial process
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Irony
I assume that all your comments about us being a propaganda outfit as just satire (such as []). I would advise you to stop as others might see it (if it were to continue) as a violation of wp:soap or wp:not or (even) wp:npa and might decide to report you. I assume they are not as you appear to be an experienced editor and so must be fully aware that that comments (and some others) violate policy, and thus is meant as humour. Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 6 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Not, not satire. Does your reference to "us" include me? Do what you like. Shtove (talk) 14:45, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring and personal attacks
You appear to be engaged in edit warring at Talk:Rania Khalek with. Please read and understand our policy on edit warring. Further, two of those diffs contain personal attacks in violation of our No personal attacks policy. Continuing to violate either of these policies will very likely result in you being blocked. I strongly encourage you to read the policies and reconsider your actions. You may consider this a final warning. If you have questions, let me know. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 20:58, 6 July 2022 (UTC)


 * It is not possible to make a personal attack on an account run by a collective, ie. Philip Cross. Shtove (talk) 10:29, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Important notices
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July 2022
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August 2022
Your edit to Pope John XXII has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images&mdash;you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Copying text from other sources for more information. — Diannaa (talk) 19:45, 13 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The edit contained the basic information from the source - it wasn't possible to simplify it further. Please explain how this is not fair use. Shtove (talk) 07:38, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The material that I removed was 60 words copied verbatim from a copyright web page elsewhere on the Internet. The text you copied contained enough creativity to qualify for copyright protection (it waas not a basic statement of facts). Wikipedia has a very strict copyright policy, stricter in some ways than copyright law itself, because our fair use policy does not allow us to copy material from copyright sources when there's a freely licensed alternative available. In this case the freely licensed material is prose that we write ourselves. Everything you add to Wikipedia needs to be written in your own words. — Diannaa (talk) 12:46, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

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What's this about?
You wrote this comment:
 * Oh no - you've arrived from the Steele Dossier mess! Shtove (talk) 13:43, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

What's that about? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 07:02, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Archive
This talk page is huge. It crashes my cellphone and is very slow on my fast PC. You need to archive (not delete) most of it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 07:05, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

March 2023
Please do not attack other editors, as you did at Talk:2022 Nord Stream pipeline sabotage. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Horse Eye&#39;s Back (talk) 17:40, 8 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's open tolerance of propaganda from such editors invites that kind of comment. Shtove (talk) 16:43, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

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