User talk:Shuki/Archive4

Page moves
Sorry, I don't understand why it is POV at all - it is merely a geographical statement. The standard style for articles on place which need DABing is "Place, Region/Country" (e.g. Perth, Western Australia and Perth, Scotland). As such, I'm gradually going through all the Israeli places which are DAB'd with (kibbutz), (moshav) etc, and moving them to the standard format, i.e. "XXX, Israel" or, if it's a settlement, "XXX, West Bank". пﮟოьεԻ  5  7  22:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Please link to this policy, besides the fact that it is nonetheless POV. --Shuki (talk) 22:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Naming conventions (places) and - the former shows the general policy (you can also include the region/country in brackets, but I don't recall ever seeing this done), whilst the latter shows that things like (city) as a DAB term is deprecated.
 * Also, could you explain how West Bank is POV? It's a very well defined geographical area, and to use something else (like Israel, "Judea and Samaria" or Palestine) would indeed be POV, but I can't for the life of me see how West Bank is. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  22:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well for one, you are 'boldly' forcing a definition onto a locality of which the residents, and the parent country simply do not use. I also disagree with you on moving kibbutz articles to, Israel and the Arab villages to a new designation. Please continue this discussion Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Israel instead of away from the spotlights. --Shuki (talk) 22:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't understand how you can disagree with the kibbutz moves - it's clearly according to the guidelines. Anyway, I have joined the discussion at WP:Israel. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  07:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Edah HaChareidis
Hi Shuki, I just reverted your edit here:. I'm sorry for not noticing this edit earlier. You should be aware that you made a mistake here. The Edah HaChareidis has its own Chief Rabbis, who represent tens of thousands of Jews, and are quite a bit more important than let's say the Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv. Please refrain from deleting this list again. I assume that you deleted it out of ignorance, and not bad will. --Piz d&#39;Es-Cha (talk) 13:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I commented on the chief rabbi discussion page. You assume wrong. As someone who probably knows about the subject, you should give more kaf zchut (in WP: WP:AGF) and before one accuses someone of ignorance, they should minimize their arrogance. --Shuki (talk) 18:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a big believer in "don't mess with articles which aren't in your area of specialty". If you don't know anything about a subject, then simply stay away from the articles about that subject. If everybody on Wikipedia would understand that (to me it sounds fairly simple), then Wikipedia would be more reliable and the behind-the-scenes work we do would be a lot more pleasant. At least you understand now that I am right; on another language Wikipedia where I also write, there are a lot of people who don't understand it, and keep on adding plain nonsense to articles about Judaism, while they know nothing about Judaism. Very annoying. --Piz d&#39;Es-Cha (talk) 10:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Understand that you are right?! Piz, since that your insist on showing your arrogance, again, I don't think you should be editing articles about ha'edah. I'm a very big believer of knowing when to do 'tochecha' to a fellow Jew and when not to, so it is especially surprising to hear it coming from a self-described expert on Haredi issues and from someone who has just begun editing on WP, (unless you have multiple sockpuppets or a previous user was banned). You should take a step back, learn how to deal with other people, and then learn how to edit on WP. WP does not belong to you. If you cannot see other people edit your contributions, then you should not be on WP. Maybe you are king on the other WP, that's not relevant here. What does 'behind the scenes work' mean? Once again, you have no idea if I wear a kipa or if I wear tzizis that are longer than yours. --Shuki (talk) 21:51, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Shuki. This is not arrogance. If you don't know that the Edah HaChareidis is specifically a Jerusalem-based organization, then you really just don't know what you're talking about and you'd be better off spending your time on other articles. WHat you are now doing is similar to claiming that Israel Meir Lau is not the Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv. Well, you know, he holds that office and that's his title, but who really says that he is the Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv? Please just quit the nonsense. If you don't know anything about the Edah (which I myself happen to be part of!), then please just stop editing about it. Please consider focusing your attention on things which you do have knowledge about. --Piz d&#39;Es-Cha (talk) 10:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you are confused, seriously. I don't know where you are taking this, but you have brought more personal baggage to this discussion about whether the chief rabbis of haedah belong on a list of chief rabbis of localities. I'm by far not a tzaddik, but it pains me to see someone like you do hillul Hashem by your continued arrogance and belittling of other rabbis, rabinical organizations, and Jews (sorry 'people' who aren't as Haredi as you think you are). --Shuki (talk) 20:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Can I ask for your help?
IP address 70.107.217.72 is constantly vandalising the page Hebrew Academy of Cleveland. I don't know what I can do besides for having a constant edit war and would appreciate the help.Leppi (talk) 16:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Allegations of apartheid deletion notification
Some time ago, you participated in a deletion discussion concerning Allegations of Chinese apartheid. I thought you might like to know that the parent article, Allegations of apartheid, was recently nominated for deletion. Given that many of the issues that have been raised are essentially the same as those on the article on which you commented earlier, you may have a view on whether Allegations of apartheid should be kept or deleted. If you wish to contribute to the discussion, please see Articles for deletion/Allegations of apartheid (fifth nomination). -- ChrisO (talk) 17:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Article naming
Basically in some cases I don't see that the article on the village can be the main article for the name (e.g. Megiddo or Dalia) as there are many legitimate uses, some of which are at least as important as the article. However, I am trying to avoid DABs wherever possible (largely, as we discussed, on Biblical characters, but I also moved Goren (disambiguation) from Goren to allow for the article to be there as nothing else was called just Goren). I've almost finished creating all the templates for regional councils, and you may notice that some of them have blue links which are currently redirects to other articles - if that's the case, I'm planning to create the article there.

WIth regards to the tagging of Eshtaol and Goren, it's a translation from the Hebrew wiki (all my new articles are). There was a source for the Eshtaol fact in the Hebrew article, but the Goren one was just written (Hebrew wiki apparently rarely uses sources). пﮟოьεԻ  5  7  20:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup, it's been hard not to see your effort on the regional council templates and your awesome subsequent de-reddifying of them. I also noticed the blue links to other articles but will leave them alone now.


 * The site of Megiddo is the original use of the word so I would think that that gets the honour. Dalia, on the other hand, is not mainly known because of the accurate water metres.


 * I understand translating the articles is the easiest and most convenient way, but I think we should refrain from bringing / leaving unsourced claims. On the settlement articles, I think in the beginning, I wrote a couple of times that such and such village was built on 'state-lands', but have since left that out in order to keep the article generic if no expicit RS source exists. --Shuki (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * OK - I do have a question about transliteration - should it be Zevulun Regional Council or Zvulun Regional Council. I was leaning towards the latter, but there are more hits for the former (not that that makes it right). Similarly, Zrahia or Zeharia? Cheers, пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  21:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Image source problem with Image:Eli sign.jpg
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Proposed deletion of Shavit 2
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Yediot
What do you mean in " you can't reference to a copy of its own WP article"?Oren.tal (talk) 21:26, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * If you would read carefully, that page on the site you referenced is merely a copy of the wikipedia article. So essentially, you are trying to source your edit with the exact same article that merely does not have the tabloid word in it. Many sites are mirrors of wikipedia, check out the fine print at the bottom. --Shuki (talk) 22:38, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * you are right.I have not notice that.However I have Haaretz as source.Anyway.as well as Jewish virtual library that call it newspaper and not tabloid.Oren.tal (talk) 23:52, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no contradiction at all. Yediot is a tabloid newspaper. --Shuki (talk) 07:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * no it is not.It is newspaper in tabloid format.However even if it is not like Washington post it is not even close to be the Sun.Tabloid mean more than format or most people and  sayin it is Tabloid is misleading.In the Format section you can mention Tabloid but not in the article section.Since that mislead the people to think this is gossip newspaper while it is not,at least not them main part of it.Second in the article of Haaretz there is contradiction since in call in the same article to the Sun tabloid and Yediot newspaper and not tabloid.Had Yediot been Tabloid it would have called it such.Oren.tal (talk) 14:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)Anyway as I said in the discussion of the article in the description box we can wrte that the format is Tabloid while in the article itself not fr the simple reason that it is not Tabloid in quality.Maybe not new your time but for sure not the Sun.Oren.tal (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * and ny the way checking in the history of the article it is also clear that many disagree with you.Oren.tal (talk) 17:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A few people seem to share your emotional opinion trying to deny that Yediot (and other Israeli papers) are tabloids, some even making a valiant effort to convince us that Yediot is a respectable and reliable paper - the 'country's newspaper' is its longstanding motto, but others with some minimal exposure to international media know that Yediot is simply not in the league of good newspapers. If the President of the USA wants exposure, he will speak with the most widely available newspaper. I admit that Yediot is not as low as 'News of the World'.
 * What is 'tabloid style'? It's one thing to discuss things informally on the discussion page, but it's another thing to go and bring this WP:OR opinion into the article. We can discuss tabloid content and tabloid format forever, but frankly, there is no academic distinction that I am aware of and you haven't found either. It is a fact that Yediot is a tabloid newspaper. And lookee here, you made me go through some of the 7500 google pages with Yediot+tabloid and I found this. In Hebrew google, Yediot+yellow gets 25000.
 * Frankly, if you are still not willing to accept the inevitable, though I have limited my criticism of Yediot, the examples of its 'yellow' sensationalist style are daily: The day that the Israeli government was to vote on the MIA exchange for Goldwasser and Regev, Yediot (and Maariv) and almost identical massive cover pages with pictures of the MIA families and headlines 'Look into their eyes', today (Aug 25, 2008) the cover story (60%) is about the missing girl (that Yediot knows exactly what happened but can't print because of the court order), the massive smiling picture of the young girl and the headline, "What did they do to you Rose?", 30% about the Abergel family getting busted, and the bottom strip about the 'hottest clothes of the upcoming winter'. Yediot is a tabloid, period. Can we end this already? --Shuki (talk) 19:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * first stop using the word emotional.I have not been emotional.It seem that you are the only emotional here.And don't use the word "us" when it is clearly only one man you and all the other disagree with you. And since I live in Israel I know about this missing children.When people say Tabloid they talk about newspaper like The "Sun" and what you have in the Sun you wont have even in the garbage part of Yediot.And no Yediot is not Tabloid for the simple reason that it is not concentrate in gossip.Until you convince the other people in your opinion with you have not done you should leave as something that mention that the format is Tabloid.Haaretz with it not Tabloid newspaper call the Sun Tabloid and in the same article called Yediot Newspaper and not Tabloid.And the story of the girl was reported in the Haaretz as well.There was also story about Israel girl that went to work as prostitutions in England.Anyway There are reliable source that call it newspaper and good source for news and not as Tabloid.Therefore I am removing from the article and leave in the description box.When you will find more agreement (not the situation right now since everyone else disagree with you) then we may raise that issue again.And the B.B.C. didnot called it Tabloid but Tabloid style newspaper with mean is slightly different.Anyway since I live in Israel and read this newspaper for years I know it is not the level of the Sun or new your post. The our in my clock is almost 3:00 am.however I am going to wake up early and buy Yediot and we will see what it is about.However talking about Abergil is no mean that it is Tabloid as this as as organize crime is strategic danger to Israel and I expect newspaper to talk about this.Oren.tal (talk) 22:33, 25 August 2008 (UTC)And by the way when the British girl Madeleine McCann disappear it was in the headline of all the British newspaper and the issue was continued to be reported in the British media as well as global media including B.B.C.sky news etc etc...Oren.tal (talk) 23:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It does not matter who disagrees with whom when there is a clear outcome. If the BBC calls it tabloid-style, then it is not your right to judge what they meant but to leave it so. Accept this already. Yediot is a tabloid, Yediot is a newspaper - there is no contradiction. Saying that Yediot is a tabloid gives you connotations of the Sun, not to many others. You are misleading others into thinking that the Sun is the ultimate (and only) barometer of tabloids.
 * The issue about reporting the girl is not tabloid in itself since it is news, but the sensationalist way Yediot (and Maariv, Yisrael Hayom, etc...) multi-page speculative way they have chosen to report it is. You yourself brought up that a tabloid is sensationalist, well, just compare the cover pages of the Israeli papers. Required reading for you would be this from the Israeli Democarcy Institute, --Shuki (talk) 23:52, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * actually to most people it give connection to the Sun and you yourself have admitted this before.Second Haaretz had almost the same type of headline paper as Maarive and Yediot.The problem is that for most people tabloid mean more than format as you try to claim and the article as such may mislead.I agree on the B.B.C. source so I would suggest to leave it say tabloid style.Since you have not born in Israel you may not understand the issue well.But I can tell you then when I find source that say that the Guardian is left wing the British rejected it as they said that C.N.N. is an American source and in the British context it is centre left.Now you need to understand that in Israel it is consider as newspaper and as someone that read it daily it is mostly about news and not gossip.By the way thanks for the website with the picture of front line of newspaper.Oren.tal (talk) 00:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The article of Israel democracy institution do NOT suggest that Yediot is tabloid and in the Hebrew version they talk about it respectfully.Al Wiesel worked in Yediot and some other important journalist.Lately one of their reporter was severely injured in Georgia to teach you that they take the issue of reporting seriously.I think and I say that as friendly advice that you need to relax and talk with other instead of just trying to edit what everyone do.Oren.tal (talk) 00:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The discussion has moved to your page.--Shuki (talk) 07:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I can help you
I think despite our past we have an agreement about a lot of topic.There is many distortion and some time even anti semitic editing in wikipedia.I believe you will discover that I can help you a lot.Also I want to add a line in the description of Yediot that it is pro-secularism,I think I will add it.Hope the best for you and keep up the good work.Oren.tal (talk) 06:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * In order to 'help me', you should first stop your arrogant and disruptive edits, read up on WP guidelines, learn to reference properly, and refrain from editing if your English is not correct. And frankly, WP is a public place, not your private notebook. You have the nerve to say that everyone disagrees with me on the tabloid issue so I checked out your talk page and found only issues in which other editors find you disruptive. I congratulate you for knowing how to check on what pages I edit, but if I ask a well-experienced and mature admin, familiar with the media and the English language, to check something, you don't have to hop in and negate my request. At first, I thought maybe you were a new editor, but I see you've been here for a while and still choose to not improve. Please grow up. --Shuki (talk) 08:06, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Shuki the arrogant and disruptive edits is your way.You just undue.You asked one of the administrator opinion then wait for him.Stop changing without talking.Don't change before you explain yourself.And you are right I can not help you.With such attitude no one can help.You don't care from anyone.You just come and force yourself.Ignoring from anyone else you must stop it.Oren.tal (talk) 08:32, 27 August 2008 (UTC)The fact that other disagree with you in the issue is clear from the history of the article as well as the discussion page.Oren.tal (talk) 08:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dude, why do you take my arguments and repeat them to me? Anyway, there's apparently no point in responding anymore, you are not willing to discuss issues and edit responsibly. --Shuki (talk) 20:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * because it is very clear that you accuse other in what you are.You angry about Yediot because they are pro secularism and anti settlers and you wont to work to do what you believe can make them look bad.while you are doing that you make Haaretz to look even more good.As for israel Hayom,I like this newspaper.it was you who decided to mention it as tabloid and I changed it to the better and more accurate description.Anyway I wanted to help you but right now your attitude made me go away  from you.But this is good.Oren.tal (talk) 01:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And by the I am very sure that if Makor Rishon will start to publish in Tabloid format that you wont go every where and start to write tabloid.If makor Rishon will ever have success you will probably will publish in Tabloid format.I wonder to where your "objective" will go in such case.It is O.K. if you hate yediot because they are pro secularism but that is not reason to push you to write wrong things.

i fixed the information in the Hebrew article of Makor Rishon
it said there that it is a weekly.I changed it to daily.just thought you may want to know about that mistake.Oren.tal (talk) 05:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)And I really hope this newspaper will have more success.It has some quality.Oren.tal (talk) 05:21, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

re-write
re-written Avraham Ahituv at Talk:Avraham Ahituv/Temp...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 13:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Israeli related subjects
As the Israeli club is rather larger than the Palestinian club may I suggest that you go through Israeli related articles to remove all Israeli POV and include NPOV...What do you think?....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

As a veteran in ME dialogue it is quite noticeable that Israeli POV is already heavily over-represented on WP...Also I do write on Israeli subjects to improve WP...Asking for me to search through extremist Israelophile sites to look up "martyr operations" is not exactly asking for NPOV....I do not visit extremist sites of either persuasion....had you bothered to go through any of the references I supply you will note references from; many books, Ha'aretz, Jpost, AJC archives, UN archives, Guardian, Independent, New York Times and Washington Post. I find these site to be RS, you may find that sites that maintain a "global Muslim conspiracy theory" more conducive to your POV but I personally find such sites full of factual inaccuracies and tripe.. .....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 15:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

AK's talk page
Hi Shuki, About our comments there. It was just humor. And you was not targeted at all. :-) It is often discussed very seriously on wp:an and wp:an/i not to bite the newbees. This shows how difficult it is for them to adapt to wp policies. Making fun of the wp:policies and wp:community cannot be blamed, particularly when the guys who do so are themselves part of this community and respect these policies. It remains that when you have to convince somebody (and again I don't target you - I haven't followed your discussion with AK3 and N.) about some facts, known by scholars, taken from wp:rs sources and that he claims, because he is not aware of this, and because wp:IDONTLIKEIT, that it is -pov, -racism, blablabla, it gives some relativity to the whole project. Ceedjee (talk) 09:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm just sorry that the subject was changed so subtley. I would have appreciated your input as well. And AK3 is certainly not a newbie with over a year of participation, and even with AGF, the heavy editing after April 30 2008 when this nick was adopted full time only reinforces my suspicion of heavy experience elsewhere. Nonetheless, I believe in starting over and don't agree with permanent bans except in the extreme cases, which AK3 might be become again without friends like you guys watching out. I find that editor's edits POV heavy with less regard for improving WP. It's a free world. --Shuki (talk) 17:28, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Shuki,
 * I think you should take care in the tone you use with AK3.
 * Even if he is pov'ed, he tries to respect rules and has access to numerous valuable sources.
 * If you think what he writes is not wp:npov or lack sources, just warn him.
 * In case of problem, don't hesitate to contact me and I can try to mediate...
 * Best Regards, Ceedjee (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Har Hebron Pages
Shuki, While I appreciate your concern about consistency, the reason I only changed that organization and structure to the one page was because I am working with someone else via the internet who has information and resources, related to this topic, that I do not. However, I am not going to post their photos/information/etc to all of the Har Hebron pages until I have their full approval. That approval required modifying one page and letting them take a look at the final project. Since the person in question does not have an wiki account (or knowledge of using wiki), this meant moifying a single page and making it public. The changes made where primarly structure, because the *big* change was in the photograph additions. I have access to photos for ever one of those pages, IF this person is cool with the way all of this works - which means they need to see it. Unfortunately, you went through and deleted all of my work before they could view the page. So, now I need to redo all of those changes, recontact this person, and give them a chance to look it all over. Again, I understand your concers, but in the future, please contact me before eliminating all of my work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mermaidscribe (talk • contribs) 10:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I see that you are new to WP. Again, I already wrote on your talk page that I suggest that you read up about the guidelines before editing anymore. No one has to contact anyone for permission in order to edit pages. No one owns any pages. If you can't accept that, you should not be editing here. And you didn't respond to my claim that your changes are simply not legitimate. Your reason for editing is suspicious. WP exists, period. WP is not a family album, please read WP:IMAGE. Thanks. --Shuki (talk) 10:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Hebron clutter
Would appreciate it if you could drop a note or vote re my proposal to elide the clutter. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 16:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please tell me where.--Shuki (talk) 16:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

POV to present a BG quote as though a historical fact. Buying one cave does not make you the owner of a city....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 13:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The quote by a prominent statesman is a fact. Are you whining that he was off by a couple of hundred years and merely rounded down? --Shuki (talk) 13:51, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The quotes a fact the content isn't....It is a political message for the hard of thinking....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Russian-Israeli newspapers
The list is correct, but I think it's missing a few entries (which could be subsidiaries of other newspapers). Two that come to mind are Sekret and Globus. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Metro israel.jpg
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Shana Tova
Hi Shuki! May you have a happy Jewish New Year! -- Ynhockey (Talk) 19:12, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image (Image:Davidi SpeakToHim.jpeg)
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Meteormaker is creating borders again
User:Meteormaker is again creating borders,, as he did in the past.. As you've expressed an interest in this topic in the past, I thought you would want to know. Jayjg (talk) 00:11, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Merge
Yes, honestly, I thing the merge was legitimate. Flayer (talk) 16:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

2009 Maqadna Mosque strike
Consensus has not been reach. Please discuss the merge in the discussion page of the article. Thanks, --Jmundo (talk) 22:09, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Meteormaker
Meteormaker regularly claims he has "won" debates that he has actually lost; this is no different. Jayjg (talk) 17:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)