User talk:Shyamal/archive18

Getting images from the Internet Archive
to Wikimedia Commons. Might you know the best way to do it? (I have John Gould's works in mind. I tried to get some images from the Zoology of the HMS Beagle, but gave up with handling the massive PDF files.) —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 21:54, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The fastest way I have found is to use the read online option move to the single page option -> move to the page of interest -> change the width of page display to 100% and then right click on the page and save as jpg (it defaults to a PHP but actually is a JPG image) Shyamal (talk) 01:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, for some reason this doesn't work on my computer: I can't make right clicks. I did try downloading using the print page function, but this didn't work either. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 21:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's another thing Internet Archive-related: I think I'd like to add some public domain ornithology-related books from the Internet Archive to Wikisource. Any suggestions? (Especially, those that are still used as refs, or which have usable text for articles). One that I may begin with is Rothschild's Extinct Birds. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 23:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Never actually used Wikisource, but I presume you should be able to use the OCRed text and proof it and then upload it on wikisource. This book seems to have some nice plates that could be of use. Shyamal (talk) 08:13, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As for those plates, I won't be able to add them (see above), and they are mostly already uploaded to Wikimedia commons at somewhat lower resolutions than what is at the Internet Archive. As for the suggestions, I meant: "any books that ought to be uploaded?" —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Vetting needed of Lepidoptera morphology
Hi Shyamal,

May I request you to please vet Lepidoptera morphology with the purpose of identifying stuff which needs deletion (not morphology but ecology or something else) and what section is not well represented and needs development?

Thanks in advance, AshLin (talk) 08:21, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Yet more on sparrows
Here is a listing of all the sparrow illustrations needed, so you can pick and choose:
 * Desert Sparrow: already discussed. Images of all 3 species would be good, since they are each distinct, and may get split.
 * Arabian Golden Sparrow and Chestnut Sparrow: For the general look of the birds of this group, see Sudan Golden Sparrow, which is intermediate between the others. The current images are good enough, but I'm not really satisfied with using them for the taxobox. Any suggestions? For the Chestnut Sparrow, see: and . Arabian Golden:  and . You can see there isn't that much for these.
 * Dead Sea Sparrow: previously discussed,.
 * Socotra Sparrow: previously discussed.
 * House Sparrow images of ssp groups would be nice, as discussed.
 * Others: Somali Sparrow, Pegu Sparrow, Great Sparrow, Swainson's Sparrow, Parrot-billed Sparrow
 * Some more could use better images. Thanks, —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:13, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Snowmanradio has found an image for Chestnut Sparrow, which looks nearly ready for GA review. Is the image of the saharae Desert Sparrow ready for inclusion yet? Why are there now two birds? —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 16:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Have added a new illustration. My knowledge of the species and sources are too limited, so will leave it to you to decide if it is good enough for use. Shyamal (talk) 04:43, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yes for sure the bird images are good enough. The range does need some corrections, though: what was the source you used? It will be impossible to get an absolutely correct map, since so little is known of this species's distribution. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 14:47, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Just some liberal guesswork based on the Kirwan paper. I was thinking a caption like "rough distribution range" would solve the problem. Let me know what changes are needed or alternatively feel free to tweak the boundaries - Inkscape is free for download on www.inkscape.org Shyamal (talk) 14:50, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you provide me with a link to the exact Inkscape file to download? (I have a Mac computer). I'm not sure I'll be able to do this. As for sources for the difference between the two House Sparrow species groups, see Birds of Kazakhstan's Indian Sparrow and House Sparrow pages. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:05, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And you could also see some papers by Vaurie, downloadable at House Sparrow. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 14:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.inkscape.org/download/ has two links for two Mac versions. Shyamal (talk) 01:32, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I tried fooling with the Desert Sparrow pic, but I couldn't figure it out. I think the map of the Desert Sparrow's range in Summers-Smith 88 is insufficient anyhow, so I've asked Sabine's Sunbird, who has the HBW vol. 14, to make a map. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 21:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's a really useful source for Passer sparrows: http://www.boldsystems.org/views/taxbrowser.php?taxid=3612 I found it on a free image search, but not all images are free, and the liscences for individual images don't seem to be in public view. And here are some sources for the Madagascar Pochard:
 * http://www.arkive.org/madagascar-pochard/aythya-innotata/
 * http://www.petermaas.nl/extinct/speciesinfo/madagascarpochard.htm
 * http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/madagascar-pochard.html#cr
 * http://www.wwt.org.uk/our-work/wetland-wildlife/madagascar-pochard

—innotata (Talk • Contribs) 15:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. http://www.boldsystems.org - very interesting site, seems like the day is not far when I will take a handheld DNA scanner- feed some bird dropping, upload the sequence and presto I find the exact population that the bird belongs too ! Shyamal (talk) 16:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

It is clearly a bit early for me to comment on the pochard image. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:43, 23 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I am afraid vector illustrations may not capture much beyond this kind of impression. Shyamal (talk) 03:03, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:12, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

GIMP distribution maps
Do you know how to make distribution maps with GIMP, or know another Wikipedian who does? If so, can you add directions to Distribution maps? I don't have Photoshop, nor do a lot of other Wikipedians, so this would be a lot of help. This would probably increase the number of distribution maps on Wikipedia somewhat—I, for one, will try to make hundreds, if I can find out how. Thanks, —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 00:35, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not too good with raster based drawing but in more basic painting software the main method would be to use the "bucket fill" method but it requires that you have an edge to contain the colour. It is a lot easier with Inkscape where I take one of the blank SVG maps on Commons and draw an area on top of it even if it is really rough and then use the intersection tool - this gives me a copy of the area of interest - I copy this into clipboard- Undo the intersection - paste-in-place what I have in the clipboard and change the colours. Shyamal (talk) 01:41, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

article on F.W. Champion
Hi there Shyamal, am happy that there is someone out there who is interested in F.W. Champion. Wanted to upload a few of his stunning photos, but alas, there is this copyright issue; can't ask anyone for permission. Regards from BhagyaMani —Preceding unsigned comment added by BhagyaMani (talk • contribs) 14:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Russet Sparrow
This article is going to be my next sparrow DYK when I finish up a draft in my user space today or tomorrow. Might you be able to improve it then? It is found in the subcontinent (the Himalyas; it is more commonly called the Cinnamon Sparrow in South Asia) so you may be able to dig up some literature on the species that I don't know of or have access to. Thanks, —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:20, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Forgot to ask: do you know what the scientific name of the kingoor shrub is? The Russet Sparrow eats it, but I can't find out a thing about it. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.archive.org/stream/BakerFbiBirds3/BakerFBI3#page/n201/mode/1up/search/rutilans (useful)
 * http://www.archive.org/stream/keytobirdsoflowe00geen#page/210/mode/1up/search/rutilans
 * http://www.archive.org/stream/ibisns03brit#page/42/mode/1up/search/rutilans
 * http://www.archive.org/stream/popularhandbooko033226mbp#page/n273/mode/1up/search/rutilans (useful)
 * http://www.archive.org/stream/birdsfromnepal411rand#page/200/mode/1up/search/rutilans
 * http://www.archive.org/stream/bulletinofmuseum70harv#page/416/mode/1up/search/rutilans
 * Will see if there is anything useful in the following refs Shyamal (talk) 02:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Perreau,GA (1910) Change of plumage of the Cinnamon Tree-Sparrow (Passer cinnamomeus). J. Bombay Nat. Hist. Soc. 19(4):986-988.
 * Stresemann,E (1939) Zwei neue Rassen aus Sd-Tibet und Nord-Sikkim. Ornith. Monatsber. 47:176-179.
 * Regarding Kingoor do you have the original author attribution for that information or geographic location ? No immediate answer I am afraid. Shyamal (talk) 02:19, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah got Kingoor it is more often spelt as Kingore apparently - Berberis spp. Seems to be a generic term and could include aristata or asiatica or other species. Shyamal (talk) 02:23, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll look through the sources later. Are the two refs at the bottom accessible online? I might not be able to get them, and I don't claim to really know German. As for the kingore, Summers-Smith just said he saw them eating it during his visit to Mussoorie and was told it is a common habit of the species, so I've added it with the parenthesis "certain Berberis spp." —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 18:39, 26 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Taking a little look through the Internet Archive sources, I've found little that is not in Summers-Smith—except information on the eggs, and that is quite good since Summers-Smith made quite a point of not including information on eggs. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've marked out the two useful ones, for my own reference. Most are just on the taxonomy and of little use. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 02:46, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Glad you found something useful there. I don't have Ornithologiche Monatberichte either, but the other is here. Shyamal (talk) 04:03, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. In regards to Ornithologiche Monatberichte, I can see reference print copies, but it is a bit of trouble and I know little German. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:56, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I can readily find help with German if you need it. Shyamal (talk) 03:04, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think that would work well. Please add anything from there to the article, though. Can you check the Ripley Guide to see if it has more info on the Russet Sparrow's voice than my sources? —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 01:14, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Grammar in Great Trigonometric Survey
Dear Sir, I note that your edit to Great Trigonometric Survey added an apparently nonsensical statement, "From Tellicherry, Cannanore and Mount Delly and triangulated with the top of Tadiandamol." I apologize for bringing this up over a year after your edit, but could you please untangle that sentence? Cstaffa (talk) 20:58, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Oops, thanks for pointing it out. I re-read the source and modified the statements. Shyamal (talk) 02:08, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Harish Gaonkar
From your comments at Talk:List of butterflies of India (Nymphalidae) you appear to be familiar with Harish Gaonkar. Perhaps you wouldn't mind visiting the dispute over a request to delete the article about him Articles for deletion/Harish Gaonkar. I think the article is going to be kept but there are still some questions that people feel need to be answered because this is the biography of a living person. Opbeith (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Too late. Sorry, was out of Internet range. I am not sure one can find a published biography of him that can be cited. Shyamal (talk) 10:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Mammals Notice Board

 * Done. Shyamal (talk) 06:25, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Image request
Hey mate I was wondering if you could rustle up one of your bird images for a group lacking any images? The group in question is the Peltops, a genus from New Guinea. There are some images of the species on the web - this one is a good sideways image of the lowland species. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  19:04, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Will look over it on the weekend. Shyamal (talk) 02:11, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this old Gould illustration will work. Image:PeltopsBlainvilliiGould.jpeg Shyamal (talk) 15:26, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That works fine. Thanks! Sabine's Sunbird  talk  20:43, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Barnstar
Would you mind doing this: As I've noted, I can't get images off most archive.org books because of my browser. So, can you upload the high resolution Iago Sparrow image a few pages up from here: http://www.archive.org/stream/zoologyofvoyageo03darw#page/n226/mode/1up? Then can you upload the entire page as new version (if the archive.org image is indeed larger) of the file File:Passer iagoensis.jpg and a very close crop of just the bird to File:Passer iagoensis crop.jpg? Thanks, —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:13, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry to pester you further, but can you check the Ripley guide and suchlike to see if they have anything to say about the Russet Sparrow not already in the article: they probably will on voice. The sources you provided were quite useful (not only the ones I marked as such earlier, but also the Yangtze one), and I think I might try, later, to bring Russet Sparrow to FA grade. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 20:04, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Uploaded File:PasserIagoensis.jpg. Regarding the Ripely-Ali handbook, my access now is limited. I will soon have a personal set. Thanks for the appreciative barnstar. Shyamal (talk) 02:00, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

1) Ecologically Sensitive Areas/Ecologically Fragile Areas (India) & 2) Buffer zones (India)
Hi Shyamal

When u get time, can u develop above articles or write ups regarding India to include in the list of protected areas and elsewhere. Also see, , ,

mrigthrishna (talk) 19:24, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Too much on my table I am afraid, but I am sure you can find hundreds of conservationists who will be interested to help on the various egroups. Shyamal (talk) 02:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Beetle id
...any comments on this? prashanthns (talk) 17:34, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Scutelleridae near Scutellera nobilis Shyamal (talk) 03:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Theresa Clay
In a lot of articles relating to Richard Meinertzhagen, you've changed mentions of Theresa Clay which stated her to be Meinertzhagen's cousin or niece. However, according to Garfield's The Meinertzhagen Mystery, Clay actually was Meinertzhagen's second cousin once-removed—nearly a niece. Do you think Clay merits her own article? How do you think this would go down notability-wise? —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 21:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have not seen enough of her bird-louse research to say much about her academic notability. The works are not as well known as say those of the contemporary Miriam Rothschild. Notability wise, might stand firmly if there are enough published obituaries/biographical sources to cite. I do not recollect removing material from the article, my source of information was Salim Ali's autobiography but it seemed to be at odds with the rest of the text and so I may have removed it but do feel free to revert any changes that I may have made there. Shyamal (talk) 02:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I also had in mind Afghan Snowfinch, which I'll try to expand soon, as I'd like to work on some non-Passer sparrow, Meinertzhagen, and southern Asia bird articles, and this is all three. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 15:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * If I would start an article on Clay, The Meinertzhagen Mystery would be an important source. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 15:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * According to http://www.phthiraptera.org/Phthirapterists/clay/clay.htm there is a detailed obit in Entomologists Monthly Magazine 128:173 - a copy is not available on http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/bibliography/8646 - check with Robert Nash - he might be able to help if you cannot find a copy. (also see ://books.google.com/books?id=HftdjMNDvwIC&pg=PA64#v=onepage&q=&f=false ) Shyamal (talk) 04:40, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not so interested in creating an article on Clay—just something to do some time. I have lots of other articles to create, such as 56 of these 57 species. Do you know anybody I could ask on notability matters—I'd like to know if a number of other people are notable. By the way, it is quite likely that Clay's research was as fraudulent as Meinertzhagen's, says Garfield. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Notability (people) is the guiding document and as can be seen, notability is quite subjective. In general however, well sourced biographies of non-living people, written without any specific slant have a better chance when it comes to notability debates. I think Theresa Clay as a mallophaga "expert" (if that is questioned, it often only adds to notability!) is notable enough and there are enough third party sources making this clear. If I find some time I will put up a stub. Shyamal (talk) 01:43, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The notability guideline is not very helpful for me with Edward Nicolls, a General of the Royal Marines and knight (I wonder if these last things are enough to establish notability). The main guideline is "has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject", the "has been a subject" part being dubious. I can find no secondary sources which mention him for more than two pages.
 * As for Theresa Clay, I'll see about working on it some time. An article on her would make a good DYK, I expect, an extra incentive for me. I think I'll request Garfield's book from my library today. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 01:54, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I am quite certain that knighthood should be enough to bestow notability on Wikipedia ! Shyamal (talk) 01:58, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

TOO MANY CAPITAL LETTERS
In this edit, you're using FAR too many capital letters. See my later edits. Principal component analysis uses lower-case initial letters in the article title and would violate WP:MOS otherwise. Similarly for the other links, and for the title of the article you edited here. Michael Hardy (talk) 17:40, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Noted, thanks for fixing it. Shyamal (talk) 01:47, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

WMI Chapter
...here if you have already not taken note. Would be good to see your involvement there. prashanthns (talk) 05:04, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Pictures
I love your many pretty pictures of birds! --Ferocious Flying Ferrets 03:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

House Sparrow eggs
Can you suggest a good source for a complete overview of the House Sparrow's eggs? By the way, that Sir Edward Nicolls turns out to be much more notable and interesting than I thought—but still hard to research: I have his month of death, but don't know anything about him before he was a captain fighting in Denmark; when I finish his article I'll start working on Theresa Clay in a sandbox. &mdash;innotata 21:49, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess egg colouration and size must be covered in the older oology works. Wonder if there is anything on long term climatic change, environmental chemicals, shell composition or other matters. Not sure of any references off-hand but will keep an eye out for them. There may be some useful pointers in the documents below if they are not already in a Summers-Smith work. Shyamal (talk) 02:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jbiosci/19/441-451.pdf
 * http://www.katevincent.org/thesis/HouseSparrows%20(final%20version).pdf
 * PS: there is a photo of your Nicolls here but of unknown provenance - http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4088 Shyamal (talk) 02:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The older oology works are what I'm looking for, as Anderson covers all the "hotter" stuff well. I've already seen the two papers you've pointed out, but I didn't know Vincent's thesis had much to say about eggs. As for Nicolls, the image presumably comes from a book I've been referring to, Ascension. The author says decipts an image in a Marines mess hall in Plymouth, and I think it comes from a privately published book about the Marines from the 1930s. I didn't know anything about him fighting Napoleon: the earliest mention I can find of him is this. I think he became famous for fighting slave traders off the coast of Africa in the 1830s. &mdash;innotata 15:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing very useful, I guess but some descriptions, measurements are available here. Shyamal (talk) 16:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

http://www.archive.org/stream/nestseggsofindia02humerich#page/161/mode/1up http://www.archive.org/stream/catalogueofcolle05britrich#page/201/mode/1up A plate here http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924000181226#page/n260/mode/1up description for which is on http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924000181226#page/n101/mode/1up/

Thanks, but I guess i won't find a "complete overview"! More reading to do… &mdash;innotata 16:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ornithologists sure hated the House Sparrow a hundred years ago. At least Alfred Newton merely had nothing to say about it. &mdash;innotata 16:28, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Amazing. "Noxious English sparrow" here http://www.archive.org/stream/nathisteggs01morrrich#page/52/mode/2up/ and another plate here http://www.archive.org/stream/nathisteggs02morrrich#page/12/mode/2up Shyamal (talk) 16:34, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Do you think you could add some images of House Sparrow eggs to Wikimedia Commons? Either there aren't any, or they are not categorised as Passer domesticus. &mdash;innotata 18:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I will ask around for a modern photograph from real-life. I think the old plates seem rather poor quality. Shyamal (talk) 01:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Some people like them. Can you add one or two as well? &mdash;innotata 15:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Sparrows
By the way, do you think you could create an image of the Afghan Snowfinch some time? Somebody's just added an image which is so inaccurate I think I'll to just remove it. &mdash;innotata 15:07, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Would you appreciate it if I e-mailed you some images of sparrows from The Sparrows and Finches and Sparrows? I think the Arabian Golden Sparrow is the sort of bird that we won't be able to find an image for, and the sort you can create an image for (no complex patterns). And Robert Gillmor's illustrations are spectacular. &mdash;innotata 22:51, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is a draft illustration of a male Afghan File:PyrgilaudaTheresaeM.svg based on the illustration in Rasmussen and Anderton (2005). Send me the pictures but be prepared to hang on for a while, may have some time and energy on weekends only. Shyamal (talk) 04:25, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Added a sparrow egg image. Gillmor's works have captivated me too. I will never forget the woodcuts that accompany David Lack's Enjoying Ornithology. I think the woodcut technique is exceptional and they are sometimes almost magical in their ability to evoke colour from black and white. Shyamal (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll send you the images, but I'm not at all impatient. &mdash;innotata 13:14, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I notice you do not have email enabled - I am reachable on lshyamal at gmail dot com Shyamal (talk) 14:02, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was going to email you throught emailuser to ask what your e-mail address is (I can e-mail others, but I've currently got Wikipedia e-mails to me disabled). Do you have Finches and Sparrows, or should I send you copies of this also? &mdash;innotata 14:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I don't have Finches and sparrows. Shyamal (talk) 14:17, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * E-mails sent. &mdash;innotata 14:28, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * And received. Thanks. Shyamal (talk) 15:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you get both of them? Google says the images fromThe Sparrows didn't reach you. &mdash;innotata 16:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC) correct, I've sent it now
 * I've sent the The Sparrows images also. Here are the key numbers for birds in Finches and Sparrows that need images: Afghan Snowfinch 290; Desert Sparrow 273; Saxaul Sparrow 257; Pegu Sparrow 263; Sind Jungle Sparrow 260; Dead Sea Sparrow 264; Somali Sparrow 261; Chestnut Sparrow 277; Arabian Golden Sparrow 276; Parrot-billed Sparrow 270; Swainson's Sparrow 269. &mdash;innotata 18:06, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

By the way, do you think the inaccurate image of the Afghan Snowfinch ought to be deleted? (It is at File:Afghansnowfinch.jpg) Do you think it represents a different species? &mdash;innotata 21:43, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Received the second mail as well. The picture seems to have been based on nivalis. I am not sure if Commons has a policy for deletion on the grounds of inaccuracy. Would be best to just leave it unused and perhaps make a comment in the image description or on the talk page. I have tried to make some changes to the Afghan Snowfinch - I am surprised by the differences in the illustrations particularly of the female. Rasmussen's description says the facial pattern not well marked but the illustration shows no trace of the mask. Have essentially made a compromise illustration of the two available sources. Wish there were photographs to see. Have also updated the desert sparrow range map. Shyamal (talk) 02:54, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. As for the supposed Afghan Snowfinch image, I've recategorised it as a nivalis. The differences between Rassmussen's image and Clements's are indeed surprising. Of course, it is unrealistic to expect photographs: I was just reading in The Economist about the part of Afghanistan where the bird is found. It is now completely inaccessible, due to snow. Clement also has a black-and-white drawing of the bird from above: do you want me to send you that? Even though our knowledge of the Arabian Golden Sparrow is even more heavily derived from Meinertzhagen, a very few photographs of it exist. A Google Images search under the English vernacular name, for instance, turns up two images. It is also highly similar to the Chestnut Sparrow and Sudan Golden Sparrow. Most of those other sparrows that need images also have similar species. &mdash;innotata 17:15, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me know what can be done to improve the current illustration - colours unfortunately can differ quite a bit across monitors and I am hoping that at least the key patterns would be visible from a distance. If it can be improved and is fine, it can be moved to the Commons, or else I can delete it. I have added File:PasserLuteus.svg, File:PasserEuchlorus.svg, File:PasserGongonensisMale.svg and you probably saw this beauty File:PasserMoabiticusWolf.jpg. Shyamal (talk) 03:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Most of the files look quite good, though the Sudan Golden Sparrow one looks strange to me (have you seen the rather poor photographs?) If you think the Afghan Snowfinch looks like a snowfinch and represents the two books well, then I think it should be used: it is unlikely we will ever get any other sort of image, of any quality. &mdash;innotata 16:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Have reduced the neck on the Afghan and moved it to commons File:PyrgilaudaTheresae.svg and have changed the posture of the Sudan Golden Sparrow. (Purge browser cache to avoid seeing the old image) I will leave their use to your discretion. Shyamal (talk) 16:28, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Added File:SindSparrow.svg Shyamal (talk) 16:45, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think they all look mostly fine, except the Sudan Golden Sparrow—but I can't place what is wrong with that one. You don't need to delete it; I'll just use the photographs instead in the article. I'm surprised at the quality of your Sind Jungle Sparrow—I don't think any of your other streaked birds are so good. It is good to remember that it is a tiny bird. By the way, can you delete User:Innotata/monobook.js and User:Innotata/monobook.css, as I've started using the "Vector" skin. &mdash;innotata 20:08, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Have deleted your css and js files, not sure if blanking/deletion is really needed but can be undone if you run into troubles. Shyamal (talk) 02:49, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is the list so far, the females are a lot tougher and I am not sure if they will turn out well enough.

Shyamal (talk) 11:29, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Really impressive. I didn't expect that much from you. Glad to see you'll try to make images of females—a lot of articles have photos of males only. The Saxaul Sparrows look ready to use, in addition to the ones you've already added. &mdash;innotata 17:05, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * On second thoughts I think I will stay away from illustrating the females, too many of them quite similar to female house sparrows and there are too many subtle shades involved. Need to work on some articles as well. Shyamal (talk) 03:44, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. The males alone are much more than I expected! The illustrations you've found and made for Saxaul Sparrow have made it much better. Swainson's Sparrow unexpectedly got a nice photo from somebody in Ethiopia. &mdash;innotata 17:22, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've just noticed that the images you've found and created and the photos I've found on Flickr have made all the sparrows except some rufous sparrows have images—something I didn't expect would happen. &mdash;innotata 21:00, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

3rd Asian Lepidoptera Conservation Symposium
Hi Shyamal, Have received confirmation of the dates from Zoo Outreach Organisation (ZOO) who are co-ordinating and hosting ALCS3 in Coimbatore, India. Will be from 25th to 29th October 2010. I do not have registration information yet. ZOO have their own website and will be announcing further details over the next few weeks. cheers, Roger HKmoths (talk) 07:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads up Roger. Shyamal (talk) 08:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Crag martin
thanks for additions, I've found a very useful German paper too (thank you Google translate!)  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Some more old works that may be useful

Shyamal (talk) 15:54, 30 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, those will be particularly useful for Dusky Crag Martin, speaking of which
 * I have a map in Turner, but it's not very big (same for Grimmett, which doesn't include east of range, and I suspect Rasmussen). Do you have anything better?
 * Do you fancy a collaboration on this, either now or to take it to FAC?
 *  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  14:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Will do what I can. Shyamal (talk) 16:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  05:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Image request
Hi Shyamal,

I have a Pupa image (placed opposite) provided by User:Meganmccarty. We would like to be annotated like the pupa image here. May I request you to use your Inkscape skills? Mrs Murmure is away on leave. AshLin (talk) 04:28, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * If you intend to have your images used on more than one language, you might want to think about using a number key. You could add the numbers to your pics, or use the annotated image template - example to right  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  05:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting, but I think the template has a problem in dealing with rescaling - uses absolute pixel positions and a change in the image size requires manual repositioning of the annotation markers. Shyamal (talk) 06:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Raster will do very well.AshLin (talk) 12:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Shyamal. AshLin (talk) 08:12, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Rana aurantiaca
Hello Shyamal, How are you doing? It seems that now IUCN redlist redirect searches for Rana aurantiaca to Hylarana aurantiaca. How about moving Sylvirana aurantiaca accordingly. Best-- Chanaka L  ( talk ) 04:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note. Yes seems like it happened with Hylarana temporalis too. Shyamal (talk) 04:49, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Dusky Crag Martin
I'm reduced to saying that they are eaten by bats, so can't be much content to add! two queries. Thanks,  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you know of a reference to support any specific raptor such as peregrine or hobby eating them?
 * any joy with a larger map to do the range from? If not, I'll use the one in Turner
 * No specific reference for raptor predation I am afraid nor have I seen a global distribution map for concolor - in fact I have good sources only for South Asia, the Southeast Asia guide I have does not have maps - a constant problem for me when I am upgrading articles. Shyamal (talk) 08:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks anyway  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  15:50, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Maps
Here's another thing I need for the sparrow articles: a map for the Spanish Sparrow and the Italian Sparrow. The range of these two species is extremely complicated, and it would be good to mark out things like zones of intergradation. If you are intersted in making this sort of map, let me know &mdash;innotata 15:23, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Easily done if the sources are available. Shyamal (talk) 15:27, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll e-mail you the maps from The Sparrows after I read wife selling, and for the Spanish Sparrow in Europe, there is the the EBCC, though they have a wierd definition of the Italian Sparrow. Here's a summary of the two species's range:


 * 1) In most of the Spanish Sparrow's range, it overlaps and hybridises with the House Sparrow a little. It is partly migratory.
 * 2) In part of northern Africa, there is a "hybrid swarm" between House and Spanish
 * 3) In northern Italy and Corsica there is the Italian Sparrow.
 * 4) The Italian Sparrow intergrades with the House Sparrow over a 20-mile wide strip roughly following the northern border of Italy (this is a very stable situation), and over Italy south of Naples and Foggia with the Spanish Sparrow
 * 5) In Malta and Crete there are some more intermediates

Actually, there are intermediates between the Cretan sparrows and the House Sparrow on Rhodes, but these probably can be skipped for a map! It would be good to have a map covering all or a lot of this for Spanish Sparrow and perhaps a crop or something for the Italian Sparrow. &mdash;innotata 15:50, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * File:SpanishSparrowMap.svg - have added one here, the text may need change and it does not include information on the northern Italy hybrid zone. Shyamal (talk) 02:54, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The map you chose to draw on does not look ideal—countries like the Vatican and San Marino pop up. Also, the Italian Sparrow's range actually extends a bit further north. &mdash;innotata 17:12, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Have modified the map base - I also noticed that the cross hatching differentiates the eastern population - I changed that colour for that but an in map legend is probably needed. Could you suggest the legend text ? Shyamal (talk) 03:42, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks quite nice, but there is one error—Italian Sparrows occur on Corsica. As for the legend: "breeding" can be removed after Passer italiae; "Passer italiae hybrids" can be changed something like hispaniolensis X italiae hybrids, and "Passer hispaniolensis hybrids" to something like hispaniolensis X domesticus hybrids. "Passer" could be abbreviated to P.. &mdash;innotata 17:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * One more error: only the House Sparrow occurs on the Balearics. &mdash;innotata 17:19, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed hopefully. Shyamal (talk) 01:13, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * All it needs is for Corsica and a bit of northern Italy to be shown as italiae range. &mdash;innotata 01:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Any chance that you can make the changes using Inkscape ? Or mail me a rough sketch. Shyamal (talk) 01:23, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried making the changes, but I think I'll e-mail you another map the day after tomorrow. Meanwhile, can you correct Corsica? &mdash;innotata 02:14, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll send you an e-mail now. &mdash;innotata 22:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it is about good enough, though. &mdash;innotata 22:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The Italian zone has been added, the new map was not easy to align, so I have added a small inset. Shyamal (talk) 02:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It turns out the HBW considers Sicilian birds to be Italian Sparrows, as well as Cretan birds, but I don't think this needs to be added to the map—Töpfer's review of the Italian Sparrow's taxonomy was skeptical of this. &mdash;innotata 17:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Flea images
Thanks, I'm quite lousy with birds present. :-) AshLin (talk) 15:03, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this image needs splitting off the other species. AshLin (talk) 12:15, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Separated ! Shyamal (talk) 14:01, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Mirafra map feedback
Hi Shyamal, (and possibly others) looks very useful, but on my WebTV system I could perceive literally no difference in color between the land and the sea, although the range colors are quite distinct, both from the background and eachother. When I opened the file for a closer look the land was scarcely a hair's difference darker than the sea, but was a headache just to try (perhaps my system generalizes colors overmuch). Would you please consider altering it to make the land, if possible, even darker? Not much, probably about 4 more hairs I would estimate should do it. If there are other's you have made with matching color scheme's, I'm sure at they are just as hard to see, for me at least. Otherwise, it's a real nice job. Thanks, Hamamelis (talk) 05:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Will fix it. Fixed. Actually the sea was transparent, so your system background would show through. Shyamal (talk) 05:37, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, that explains it. It looks great now, thanks! Hamamelis (talk) 14:00, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Spanish Sparrow JBNHS papers
Do you think you could find these papers in the JBNHS on the Spanish Sparrow?

Gavrilov 1963. The Biology of the eastern Spanish Sparrow… 60: 301-307

Ticehurst et al 1923 Notes on the birds of Mesopotamia 28: 210

Ticehurst et al 1926 31: 91. Thanks, &mdash;innotata 21:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Will send a link by email (three large postscript files). Shyamal (talk) 01:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Glad to have Gavrilov's paper; it is a good summary of his research, and a few important facts aren't in Summers-Smith. &mdash;innotata 14:36, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

File:PasserHispaniolensisGould.jpg was quite a find—Pyrgita cisalpina is a synonym for the Italian Sparrow. &mdash;innotata 01:23, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks for resolving the name! Shyamal (talk) 01:41, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you upload this similar image of a bunch of sparrows? &mdash;innotata 21:09, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There's also this image of North African hybrid sparrow heads and accompanying explanation. &mdash;innotata 00:10, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Will look over it soon - The Brehms work is fine but would need the life span of "A. Frisch, Berlin" to ensure that the Nov. Zool. images are in public domain. Shyamal (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * File:SparrowsBrehms.jpg
 * Thanks. I didn't notice the name of the illustrator; I thought the illustrations were anonymous, and they accompany a paper by Rothschild and Hartert, whose works are public domain. &mdash;innotata 13:49, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Summers-Smith
Summers-Smith has an article now—J. Denis Summers-Smith. &mdash;innotata 16:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks good for an article start ! Shyamal (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Andy Lehrer is back - again
Hi. It looks like more protection is in order. I would like, once again, to remove all the ridiculous personal attacks from the talk page and protect it, as well. Would you agree? It may also be necessary to re-open the sock puppet case if this continues. Dyanega (talk) 17:29, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Doug. Bengalia is already under semi-protection. Yes, feel free to delete the talk page personal attacks. I am not sure if protecting the talk page is suitable given the low intensity of activity - and at least acts like an escape pressure valve. Also, it seems like he (User:Anlirian, User:109.186.34.91 etc.) has accepted a compromise wording of the article so hopefully some peace will reign there. (diff ) Shyamal (talk) 02:00, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Great Auk Map
Shyamal,

Hello. I've been working on finishing up the Great Auk article with hopes to bring it to a FAC soon. I was wondering if you could produce a range map for the article. http://www.coachwhipbooks.com/samples/greatauk/GreatAukMap.pdf has a map, though it may be difficult to decipher. http://data.gbif.org/species/13816183 has a better one. Thank you. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 23:02, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It looks good. One thing though- any chance of adding the breeding sites as shown by the second map? Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:50, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * GBIF data is usually more to do with specimen associated locality data - and sometimes wrong due to incorrect georeferencing. Do you have a good source for breeding records. The dates in the first map are indistinguishable from the sea depth figures... and the lettering is hard to detect as you have pointed out. Shyamal (talk) 01:54, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah. I had better not make assumptions. Okay, there is a list of breeding sites on the page under Distribution (there aren't many). I'll try to find a map with the dots already on it though. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:00, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * http://library.thinkquest.org/5481/thegreat1.htm has most of the sites. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:03, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Papa Westray in the Orkney Islands, St. Kilda Island off Scotland, the Faeroe Islands are the only ones not depicted on the map. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * And thanks for changing the caption; not sure what I was thinking. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:07, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The yellow dots aren't showing up. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:24, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ensure your browser cache is not doing it, try a shift and F5 if you are on Firefox. Shyamal (talk) 02:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * They are showing up now. Thank you- the map looks fantastic. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:30, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Ali paper
I only recieved one page of the paper by Ali after Gavrilov's; can you send it? Thanks, &mdash;innotata 19:36, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure. Shyamal (talk) 16:23, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

File:Steppe-Eagle444.jpg
Thanks for that. Go ahead and change the file name, I've added it to black kite already -- Benjamint 00:04, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Spider
Thanks a lot for your offer of assistance, would you agree with my ident of this spider: might it be Nephila pilipes jalorensis. --Benjamint 08:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It certainly looks like a Nephila but I would think twice before putting a species on it, but try mailing - manju.siliwal at gmail.com - she is an expert on the spiders of the South Asian region. Shyamal (talk) 08:36, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * N. pilipes is known from the region - reported only recently ! - http://web.uni-plovdiv.bg/bechev/Bechev_pdfs/Bechev_Deltschev_2008_Nephila%20pilipes.pdf ... but there are a couple or more other species that should be checked out. Shyamal (talk) 08:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I emailed her. Can I email you in the future as well to save uploading with incorrect filenames again? email me at benjamint444 at gmail dot com if you don't want to post your address ;) Benjamint 01:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure. My mail id is quite public - lshyamal at gmail dot com Shyamal (talk) 02:01, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello
Shyamal, I am a member of Marathi Wiki, have been writing about wild life in Marathi. Saw many photos you have uploaded. I wanted to know whether you have any photo / sketch and information on Phayre's Langur. Please see one of my articles showing pictures and names of animals. Here the photo of said Langur is missing, can you help? Gypsypkd (talk) 05:31, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Will try. Published research is probably easier to put together but regional photographers who contribute to the public domain are rarer than these primates. Shyamal (talk) 14:53, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

National chauvinism in category space
Man, 2.100.23.252 | this guy's like a bot really pissing me off. Can we undo his edits with a bot? AshLin (talk) 14:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I have looked at the rulebook and there it is hard to ban such stuff especially when "fauna by {country}" has become a standard. I have already brought this up - but I think there is no rule or guideline being broken by this editor apart from a complete refusal to discuss edits and being anonymous on a dynamic IP. See Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_May_10 and now this editor has set about on Category:Frogs_of_India apart from Category:Amphibians_of_India (which differs by only the caecilians and one newt!). This is only the first pass, the next mission of our anon editor is to mark out which of these are found in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Sikkim etc. and then rename India as "republic of India" and move it back on the alphabetic country lists added by Polbot - the editor also likes to rename Israel to "State of Israel" and likewise have it moved back ! Have assembled a partial IP list for someone who may want to take action - User:First_Light/Fauna_vandalism - would be best for someone from outside the South Asia region to do it in any case. Shyamal (talk) 15:03, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Shyamal, Feel free to keep adding those IPs to my subpage if it helps, or you can move it here, either way. It is helpful for me since I watchlist a lot of bird articles for vandalism, and seeing those IP ranges makes it easier to catch. First Light (talk) 17:10, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Licenses
Shyamal, can you remember that images need to be PD in the US and the source country for upload to Wikimedia Commons? I've been cleaning up licenses for commons:Category:PD India and some similar categories, and I've found a lot of your uploads (all I've found without US licenses so far are OK, usually as PD-1923). Thanks, &mdash;innotata 23:38, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, and can you tag files by authors who died over 100 years ago with PD-old-100? This shows that the file is out of copyright worldwide. &mdash;innotata 23:49, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. Sorry, I was not aware about the hosting site requirements. Shyamal (talk) 02:13, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

mistake
Hello, you have cited a sentence claiming to be my sentence, but it is not. So I have edited/modified your message. --Snek01 (talk) 23:42, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually I was trying to say that you pointed out that that statement by R D M Page was in error. Anyway, the trimmed version is clear too. Shyamal (talk) 01:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

E-mail
Are you going to Bharathiar? I just sent an e-mail. If it doesn't arrive I'll send the same from my hotmail. Sometime try thi from Holland has music which enhances the effect.I thought it excellent. Very warm regards Robert Notafly (talk) 10:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikisource
Thought you might want to see what I've done for ornithological texts at Wikisource. For journals there's The Condor—a (random) choice of the first journal to work on that was pleasantly surprising: I'd say the Condor was much more forward thinking around the turn of the century than the Ibis or Auk. I've been adding so many papers from this journal that there have constantly been some in the "new texts" section on the main page for over a week. The earliest issues of the Ibis already have been uploaded to Wikimedia Commons to be added to Wikisource, and I expect to do the same with Pacific Coast Avifauna and the JBNHS soon.

For books there's The Grouse in Health and in Disease, basically a species monograph; Edmund Selous's Bird Watching (see s:Index:BirdWatchingSelous.djvu) and some more of his books. Rothschild's Extinct Birds probably will be too much trouble to work on, but I've found that two PD books from Arthur Cleveland Bent's Life Histories of North American Birds series are available on the Internet Archive. &mdash;innotata 19:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting, a lot of work although I never quite understood the motivation behind Wikisource - especially since there was already a collaborative OCR proofreading site and the Internet Archive does a fairly good job with their OCR - esp. good enough for Google indexing - but they do not have an easy system for improving the OCR-ed text. Shyamal (talk) 01:54, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * What the motivation behind Wikisource is I don't know, maybe you can look at Wikisource or this. It certainly seems much better in than Project Gutenberg in most respects. The texts are much more readable, and can accommodate images and complicated formatting (compare Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, which is a comparatively poorly proofread text and the Project Gutenberg equivalent); and proofreading, as at s:Index:BirdWatchingSelous.djvu is much easier. Some Wikisource texts, such as most Encyclopædia Brittanica entries are copied from Project Gutenberg and corrected further; a large number of Wikisource's texts are created off djvu files from the Internet Archive, including all the books I'm working on. &mdash;innotata 14:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)