User talk:SirFozzie/Archive 25

Happy New Year

 * Many thanks! And thank you for your job as a member of the ArbCom the last few years. I know how much work you put into it :) SirFozzie (talk) 14:32, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Quick Q:
Are you subscribed to clerks-l? If not, which address do you want to be subscribed at? - Penwhale &#124; dance in the air and follow his steps 06:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was added :) Thanks though for asking. SirFozzie (talk) 07:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Domer
Hi Fozz have you see the latest offerings of Misortie against Domer such as calling him a fuckwit and a twat and putting a speedy deletion tag on his user page this is blatant trolling. BigDunc 11:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Also calling him a cunt here. Not being paranoid but it is amazing that no one spots these attacks. BigDunc  11:26, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Just got up. Didn't appreciate being called a troll myself, but let me see what is going on SirFozzie (talk) 17:56, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I see the editor has apologized and disengaged. Let's see if it sticks. I did put my two cents on their talk page. SirFozzie (talk) 18:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough the editor apologised and civility blocks are not my thing but I get 2 week block for saying someone was a "fucking fantasist" when they lied about me yet this editor can call another editor a cunt, fuckwit and a twat and you just say aggression was met with aggression, these double standards have got to stop. I wonder what would have happened had I called someone that or if Domer had? BigDunc  19:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Question
Hi, SirFozzie, and thank you for your recent oversight to the page Bill Hayes (actor) As you can see here, an abuse filter blocked the brunt of the attack. I was wondering if you could provide me with a description of how the edits that did make it through got around the filter? Thanks.  Triplestop  x3  17:41, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey. Sent you an email. SirFozzie (talk) 17:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Please think about this longer
I hope you don't mind that I'm writing here, but I think what I said at Wikipedia talk:Administrators is likely to be buried in responses very quickly. While I greatly appreciate what you're doing, I think you're moving much too fast on this, and it's not clear, to me at least, the scope of the problem you're trying to address. It seems like what you're doing is going to greatly expand what can be considered wheel-warring, which is going to be extremely drama-inducing. Once and only once in my nearly 4 years as an admin was I accused of wheel-warring, and it was because I had taken what I thought was a routine maintenance action on a page that, unbeknownst to me, was the subject of previous controversial action. It was very disconcerting to have that term, which is about the dirtiest word there is around here, appear on my talk page. I really want to urge you in the strongest possible terms not to make it harder to do the routine work most of spend our time on. Don't forget, you arbcom folks spend all your time looking at controversial actions (and trust me, I know that we're all in your debt for that). But as someone who deals with the routine stuff, where lasting controversy appears incredibly rarely, I really think the system may be a lot less broken than you think. Thanks. Chick Bowen 05:43, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have thought about it for many months, actually. Yes, a great majority of the actions that are taken by administrators are in no way, shape or form controversial. What I'm trying to stop is instances where a block was taken based on discussion, etcetera, and someone comes charging in says "No. I don't agree with you or the discussion, so I'm going to undo the action." I hope there's a way to balance the two. Actions like the one I describe above let disputes fester on and grow worse and worse. SirFozzie (talk) 05:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You're obviously right about that. I would have absolutely no problem with what you're proposing if it were limited to blocks and included some kind of room to adjust block length.  It's deletions and protections where I think things get complicated; in this change, it's the unqualified word "actions" that's the problem.   Chick Bowen 06:19, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Zenne, another Wikipéire sock?
Can you take a look at this user, Zenne? Wikipéire socks have been targeting the Iceland (supermarket) page recently, changing "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland", and therefore the page was semi-protected for a month on the 10 December, at my request. A few hours after the protection expired earlier on today, this new user, on their first edit, changed Republic of Ireland to Ireland, and cited "changes in the manual of style", so this user doesn't seem like a newcomer.

Can you have a look at this? -- Footyfanatic3000 ( talk  ·  contribs )  21:14, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not a new user, irrespective of what's happened on the page before, the edit is based on new consensus formed by the update of WP:IMOS. Wikipedia shouldn't lose out because an editor doesn't like a policy.Zenne (talk) 21:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not because I don't like any policy, I'm just doing it because he/she is a banned user. IMOS states nothing in favour of using simply Ireland in this article anyway. -- Footyfanatic3000 ( talk  ·  contribs )  21:48, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

It does. It indicates that the piped version always be used in the introduction of articles. Please read the new consensus version which now affects this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenne (talk • contribs) 21:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Blocked as a sockpuppet account. SirFozzie (talk) 21:59, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks :) -- Footyfanatic3000 ( talk  ·  contribs )  22:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

3rd viscount monckton of brenchley
This subject has suffered from Graves' Disease, which causes ocular proptosis. Various people who may be part of a paid network of wreckers who tamper with the biogs of people who disagree with global warming have repeatedly inserted an obviously offensive photo of the subject that exploits his physical disability by making a feature of the proptosis in a ludicrous way. Please refer these people - one of them is ChrisO, who has been warned before - to the arbitration committee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.210.85.112 (talk) 02:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've received this request, but not sure that ARbCom is the best way to handle this, but I will look into it a bit. SirFozzie (talk) 01:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

BLP drive
Sign me up for a formal BLP drive. Since the end of December I started spending sometime on articles in the BLP category showing no references. The situation is more of less the same as the last time I looked 6 months ago with the biggest challenge being BLP articles about people from non-English speaking countries. So, for the work to be successful we need people that are proficient in several languages to help.

We have too many articles about athletes and politicians with no sources in English to verify the information. These are generated from a list or roster with only foreign language sources available. Usually, I can confirm that they are not a hoax article but have no way of verifying the information is about one person and not a blend of several people with similar names. So they pass notability guidelines but can't be easily improved. :-( In general, many of the BLP tagged as unreferenced do have at least one or two sources on the page somewhere that show that they are real people, and only need clean up to bring them up to my minimum standard. If there are no sources available, then I prod them.

A good place for people to start is with their own early articles. I'm working on few of mine that are below my standard. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 10:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Good to hear, Flo.. I don't know how/when we're going to get this off the ground, but it might be one of several issues we need to look at here. SirFozzie (talk) 21:27, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thinking about this more. I think a cross wiki multi-language BLP drive across all Wikimedia projects would have the best chance for success. Something that lasts for the whole first quarter of 2010 with the goal of getting every BLP article sourced that does not have references to support the reason for notability and basic content. This would include all types of WMF projects. Banner announcements and updates about the progress... Something like this could have an impact. I'll write something up and see if we can get enough interest to push it forward. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 05:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Great. Keep me updated. I can think of others who would be interested in such a BLP drive! SirFozzie (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Mentor/Padawan
Hi. I remember a while ago you helped me out with something and wanted to know if you're taking on students/padawans of the wikipedia arts. andyzweb (talk) 15:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Not right now, being an Arbitrator does take a lot of my time up, but I'm always willing to answer questions, if you don't mind a slight delay before I answer them! SirFozzie (talk) 01:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Request
In edit summaries, please distinguish between "re-signing" and "resigning," or you are going to scare someone. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed, that edit summary startled the heck out of me! --Elonka 18:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * er, oops? (laughs) sorry all! :) SirFozzie (talk) 18:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Misty Willows
Is this case before Arbcom? Based on Risker's notation, I assume Someone emailed Arbcom and the issue is before the committee. If so, I would like to see the discussion. Sephiroth storm (talk) 20:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The discussion is being handled privately as there is material we cannot reveal due to the privacy policy. (checkuser, etcetera). As soon as we can say more, we will. SirFozzie (talk) 20:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)SirFozzie (talk) 20:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, wanted to verify, If you can, please let me know when it iss public. keep up the good work :) Sephiroth storm (talk) 22:19, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you oversighted my blocking rationale. Should I have used something different in the initial block? Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 23:51, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I oversighted it. Basically, there was a clear accusation of a criminal act in the block rationale. In future, it's best not to say things like that, especially when the account has been connected to a RL identity - A l is o n  ❤ 00:14, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I obviously can't see it now, but I thought I had written "allegations of..." in the rationale, trying to balance the concerns you raised with the importance of giving a clear and unambiguous block reason that wouldn't be undone without appropriate consultation. What would have been the ideal thing to say for an initial block in such circumstances?  Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 03:49, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You actually hadn't, but yeah - something like what Fozzie put, and it should be related to WP policy. Certainly not suggestions of criminal activity! - A l is o n  ❤ 04:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Tsk, shame on me for acting too hastily. Thanks for the feedback, but here's hoping I don't have another opportunity to actually put it to use! :-) Jclemens (talk) 18:56, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Not a problem. The whole situation is problematic, and our hands are really tied. If the person IS what they say they are, we have a whole can of worms. and if it's NOT who they say they are, that's a whole different can of worms. In either case, we get worms :P SirFozzie (talk) 18:57, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

topic ban clarification
I was asked to help bring the article Nobel prize up to GA or FA status and I happily agreed. However, this being Paranoid Times, I wanted to make sure the article, or some sub section of it, was in fact not covered by the topic ban. Per comments here and what seems to me like plain common sense it wouldn't be. But it's better to be 100%. Or is this non-trivial enough to make a formal request for clarification? Thank you.radek (talk) 04:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * My first thought is that it wouldn't be covered, but I'd like to remind you that depending on what the edits ennumerate, the article may not be covered under the topic ban but edits (if they in general would fall under the topic area) may. Just my ultra very quick .02 on the issue. SirFozzie (talk) 04:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks.radek (talk) 06:57, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Status
Hi. You stated here (on the 5th) that you were going to be inactive on all upcoming cases, but it appears you are active on a number of Arb related matters. Would you like your status to be updated? Tiptoety talk 07:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Um.. read that again? "I will be going active on all new cases, and the Tothwolf case. Thanks! SirFozzie (talk) 19:34, 5 January 2010 (UTC)" SirFozzie (talk) 08:00, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I am embarrassed now. I read it as "inactive." Sorry to bother you, Tiptoety  talk 08:03, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha, Tiptoety made an error! I knew it would happen eventually. *tee, hee* KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 23:37, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Tee hee? I've never seen such language from the Puppy before. What's next, "neener neener"? :D (grins and ducks) SirFozzie (talk) 23:45, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * *sad* I was afraid the humor wouldn't come across, and thought that would make it clear I was giving a sideways compliment in what was intended to be a humorous fashion... but now I'm being *mocked* by Fozzie! *walks off forlornly, crying bitterly* KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 02:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Awww damnit, I can't resist sad puppy eyes. *gives the puppy a cookie* SirFozzie (talk) 02:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Happy puppy!!! :-) KillerChihuahua ?!?Advice 12:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Not so sure that WMC is the problem here
Indeed. So wuold you kindly explain why you're supporting sanctions against me?

This looks like arbcomm at it worst. Abd has been blocked for which is nothing to do with me. You're shooting the messenger William M. Connolley (talk) 08:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm saying it would be for the best if he stopped mentioing you and you him (that way keeping him from saying "he's started it and I can't talk back" SirFozzie (talk) 08:52, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Seems a thin justification for sanctionning me. I think I'm being sanctionned on the basis of no misbehaviour at all. Can you point to any problematic edits on my part since this began? William M. Connolley (talk) 09:20, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think we're going to come to a meeting of the minds, so to speak, but I'll state it again. If someone needs to follow up on anything Abd says, it doesn't need to be you, does it? I'm sure that with an editor of Abd's.. history shall we say, that if he crosses the line someone will be there to say something. SirFozzie (talk) 16:15, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't need to be me. But nor do you need to santion me. You've said, yourself, that I'm not the problem in this - but yet you're going to sanction me anyway. You call that just? William M. Connolley (talk) 23:03, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

You have mail
You'll have more later if/when my scanner drivers ever finish downloading so I can scan the thing in question as well. 2 lines of K 303  14:44, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Arbcom and BLPs
Can you seriously suggest another way we could have forced this long-term disgrace without direct action? I agree that it would be better if admins played "in the rules" and through discussion to get the necessary done, but you know that was never going to deliver, and I can't exactly be accused of not trying and trying again, can I? Happy to be cleared, castrated, garrotted, or whatever is felt necessary, and I certainly never expected to be commended. But truly, there was no other way, and you know it. If Wikipedia wants people to play within the rules, then it needs to create rules that work, and work for BLP, it has singularly failed to do that, and so chaos will follow. That's regrettable, but the alternative is a continuing inertia on long-term pressing ethical issues, and that is unacceptable.--Scott Mac (Doc) 09:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * For example, Lar. Case already filed. Things already looked at. ArbCom trying to find a way to handle this. And he goes and does it again, after two people blocked and numerous screaming imprecations. I'm sorry. There was a better way then to say "I regret I have but one admin bit to give for my BLP-try" and march the administrators in to face the whiff of grape. As I said, I;m willing to say you had BLP on your side and that you were right, but I'm not willing to commend you for how it happened. I can understand if you disagree, but it's a principle I'm standing by. SirFozzie (talk) 09:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As I say, not too worried about commendation. Please reword the motion and support the principle behind it. I've even quite happy to be desysopped or trout slapped if it gets the change.--Scott Mac (Doc) 09:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that's not possible at this time. I hope my statement makes it clear that I support a majority of the motion however, and others looking at my vote should judge accordingly. SirFozzie (talk) 10:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm disappointed to see that your are opposing the motion. IMO, the hysterical reaction to what arbcom sees as reasonable admin action needs to be countered by a supportive statement from the Committee. As you well know, the attempt to clean up BLP has stalled for years, and admins need to be motivated to continue to work in this area. I see the statement commending them as a way to encourage them to keep working in the area, while other parts of the statement ask them to use less chaotic methods. I think the sentence is balanced as crafted and does not harm as you seem to think. I see the true harm from admins abandoning their work in the area. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 17:36, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The admins doing it were also being jerks. I think there is enough nuance in this world to justify a vote not supporting them being jerks.--Tznkai (talk) 17:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It will be a massive net loss if they stop working to improve BLP. Words of encouragement and recognition for these admins is needed with the additional instructions to use less chaotic means. A blanket call for people to work in this area has much less meaning then giving support to the people that actually do. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 18:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've responded to you privately, Flo. Check your email when you can. SirFozzie (talk) 19:36, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, there are other costs associated in encouraging them the way the committee has chosen to do, and what justification is there for pigeonholing those who interfered as bureaucratic twits? But yes. The committee chose a side on who they value and who they don't.--Tznkai (talk) 19:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Coffee
User_talk:Power.corrupts he is threatening to block several editors. I thought you would be interested after he edited that protected page.Ikip 06:04, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you sirfozzie. It is rare that I have an arbcom member grace my page, they usually just try to ignore me as a pest.
 * I think these editors saw the amnesty editors support your reasonable warning, and automatically opposed.
 * I would like to create a WP:Coffee Amnesty essay, explaining how, if you share the ideology of the majority of arbcom and Jimbo, the rules don't apply to you, but I won't.
 * Not sure what part you were laughing about, how I slaughter your name? Ikip 01:22, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You have called me Sir Fonzzie and Sir Frozzie in that section. I just found it amusing :) SirFozzie (talk) 01:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Arbcom motion
Just wanted to commend your well-reasoned and level-headed handling of the recently-passed BLP motion. TotientDragooned (talk) 22:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I know it is the policy of some arbcoms to delete barnstars, so my feelings won't be hurt.

;-)
View from SirFozzie. I like it :-) Thank you for making a strong show of support for changes in the way the way that we handle BLP content. It is important for the Community to understand that change is coming. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 01:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

The pattern
Hi SirFozzie, you've declined my request and asked me to show the patternt of Jéské Couriano edits. I could not do it at the request because I am allowed only 500 words, but here is the pattern:









Would you like to see some more? Warm regards.--Mbz1 (talk) 06:37, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It shows he has been uncivil, or a little over the top yes, but not anything with regards to administrative tools, for example.. and I happen to agree with him about the nature of some of those "personal armies" generated over at /b/ SirFozzie (talk) 07:10, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I see that in your opinion the statement "Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others" should be taken off Administrator conduct? Well, thanks for your input. Sorry I bothered you. I've no more questions. Warm regards.--Mbz1 (talk) 07:01, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I am not saying that (and I would please request that you NOT put words in my mouth. I do that quite well enough on my own, thanks :)). If you have a user conduct issue with Jeske, please consider opening a User Conduct RFC. Coming to ArbCom as the FIRST line of dispute resolution, not the last, is not going to get you what you want, here. I know the temptation is great, as we can do that which you desire as a resolution, (the removal of Jeske as an administrator), but except for very rare circumstances, we do NOT take issues as the first line of Dispute Resolution. SirFozzie (talk) 07:10, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry I misunderstood you. I've no "a user conduct issue with Jeske". I am nobody now. Jeske said "Mbz1's done.", and I assure you, I am done. So no, I've no "a user conduct issue with Jeske", but I naively thought Wikipedia might have. I see I was mistaking. Once again I sorry I bothered you. Warm regards.--Mbz1 (talk) 07:23, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Quick favour please
Could you (or any other admin watching) possibly renew the range block on this range? I asked Alison but she's a bit busy apparently, and he's been back disrupting as and. Thanks. 2 lines of K 303  11:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Unrelated, but no point creating a similarly titled section....if you could confirm here the details I've emailed you. Thanks. 2 lines of K  303  13:33, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Oh, SirFozzie...
...a special someone is talking about you on WP:AN. Ioeth (talk contribs twinkle friendly) 16:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks Ioeth. Taken care of now. (they should really read WP:Plaxico during their month off :/ SirFozzie (talk) 17:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Minor spelling
Hello SirFozzie, I hope you are doing well. :) I see a minor spelling thing did you mean "shunt", or "shut..." ? Yours, Cirt (talk) 01:29, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Shunt as in divert. :) SirFozzie (talk) 01:31, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah. I suppose either/or works in that sentence. No worries, Cirt (talk) 01:32, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

194.179.120.4 is being used excessively by Wikipéire. Should it be blocked?
As you can see by the IP's contributions (and location, Madrid), 194.179.120.4 is being used by Wikipéire. I've tried to put sock notices on the talk page, but he's constantly removing them. Should this IP be blocked? -- Footyfanatic3000 ( talk  ·  contribs )  16:09, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll try to have a word with a checkuser about collateral damage and/or a range block. SirFozzie (talk) 16:10, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Alison has now done a checkuser and the IP has been blocked for one week. I'll keep an eye on it though :) -- Footyfanatic3000 ( talk  ·  contribs )  01:30, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone's watching yer talkpage, Foz! ^_^ - A l is o n  ❤ 01:32, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Minor formatting
Here, seems minor formatting is need to have Mailer Diablo show up as the first "abstain" number. Cirt (talk) 19:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks better now. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 19:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * NP. Thanks for the poke, Cirt :) SirFozzie (talk) 19:33, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries, Cirt (talk) 19:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Vote strikes
Hi SirFozzie, FYI:, ,. Paul August &#9742; 20:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Paul, Much appreciated :) SirFozzie (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Paul August &#9742; 20:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Ping
I have sent you an e-mail. --Tenmei (talk) 20:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * received, and in discussion at the ArbCom level. SirFozzie (talk) 04:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Minibreak
Hey all, taking a mini break of about 72 hours or so. Normal service should resume on the weekend. No need to move me to inactive, but if there's anything I absolutely NEED to know, email me :) SirFozzie (talk) 04:35, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, I'm back! SirFozzie (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Howdy
I filed the ArbCom request for Brews ohare which went on mostly over your Wikibreak. I am asking you to please review the request carefully, taking note of the selfless and difficult steps taken by uninvolved editors (Count Iblis, ProfStandWellBack, CosineKitty) to strongly support Brews. I hope that my blunt style did not put you off. If I have violated etiquette by either my actions there or my writing here, please let me know, and I apologize in advance.Likebox (talk) 19:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Just in case you get a chance
Hey Fozzie. Hope your good. Sorry to bother you with an ani request but I know you looked at this before. But if you get a chance could you take a look at this. I know how draining this issue is but I could use a hand-- Cailil  talk 22:28, 15 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I just posted a response to your recent comment. However I think its worth saying there that in the middle of last year just stopping HighKing and others from inserting or removing the term would have been attractive.  However we have got HighKing to use the task force and to accept the results of discussions there, which have been reasonably even handed.  However the sheer obstinacy of Mister Flash means that progress is only made with great difficulty.  When BlackKite was involved we got somewhere, and we need some admin help on the task force.  It would be worth your while casting your eye over the actual cases there to that we did make some progress.  I also put some work into a protocol (see link on ANI thread) which got support and might (with modification) form the basis of a resolution.  Either way, the point of posting here was to say that there have been some changes in behaviour over the last six months in HighKing (and he has broadened his editing habits) which should be encouraged. -- Snowded  TALK  07:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Add a "public interest" clause to Oversight
A proposal to add a "public interest" clause to Oversight has started at Wikipedia_talk:Oversight.  SilkTork  *YES! 10:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Iñaki de Juana Chaos' biography
Why have you removed all the additions I made and restored the version that the vandals are so desperate to keep in spite of all the data I added? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genericcoop (talk • contribs) 21:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have commented on your page. I urge you to re-read Wikipedia's policies that I link to on your page. SirFozzie (talk) 21:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm new to Wikipedia so sorry about any confusion I might have created. As far as I know, if anyone wants to contest something that is written they should justify it. All I have done is add information all of which is sourced. I am a researcher at a higher education institution so I don't understand why my data is being deleted. What part of the data is being considered unsourced or false? I have spent the whole day trying to dispute lies about a convicted terrorist by providing evidence that judges have used in a court of justice. From your background, it seems that you don't speak Spanish or Basque and the same goes for the vandals that deleted all the information without any discussion. How can you know all of it is false when you don't even understand any of the evidence? For your information you have just deleted the names of several victims of ETA's murders as though they were POV. TELL me specifically what is it that you think may be false or biased.Genericcoop (talk) 21:44, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, first off.. Welcome to Wikipedia :).


 * I speak very little spanish (took a year or so of language classes when I was in school), and do not speak Basque. However, that's not what I and other people are concerned about here. I linked the Neutral Point of View for a reason. Let me copy some of the things that you said that were quite frankly, non-neutral...


 * "According to the Spanish Constitution (paradoxically reviled by Chaos and other terrorists)"
 * " It should be noted that as cruel as the Spanish Constitution, state, governments, and judges are supposed to be according to ETA terrorists"
 * "This fact contributes to create further confusion when comparing Basque secessionism to Irish or Palestinian terrorist activities behind emancipatory movements: It is unthinkable that Michael Collins or Bobby Sands would have been born to native British soldiers or that Khaled Mashal´s father in law had been a Mossad agent."

These statements come no where NEAR NPOV, and are Original Research as well. I don't claim that this person is a good person, I'm just saying that what we have on the article has to be written succinctly and neutrally, and unfortunately, what you're putting in there, is most emphatically, neither of the two. SirFozzie (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This is insane! ETA revile the Spanish Constitution. They claim that it is Franco's legacy and that it was imposed on them in the constitutional referendum since the Constitution was not approved by a majority of Basques in the Basque Country although it was in Navarra.Genericcoop (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

It is a paradox to revile the same constitution and consider it a fascist constitution while you seek its protection with the cooperation of International Amnesty. The Ribbentrop-Molotov non-agression pact before WWII was a paradox and I don't see anybody getting banned for saying that. To say that these two diplomats "paradoxically signed a pact" is historically accurate for it seems hard to understand two declared enemies militarily and politically would sign a pact. Paradoxes exist SirFrozzie. Not to mention all the documentation you deleted including letters and facts regarding this person's life. You have deleted everything!!!! Who is the next authority above you?Genericcoop (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

One of the letters you removed states clearly that ETA compares and models itself after other terrorist organizations. ETA has even signed treaties with IRA, FARC and the LPO and leaders from these organizations are often quoted by ETA in their communiques. This is basic history SirFozzie. On almost every trial in which a terrorist is being judged, the first thing ETA members state is that they do not recognize the authority of the Spanish constitution, its laws, and its judges, again, common knowledge SirFozzie: it is ETA members who say these things not me. I'd quote from them but you would delete that too like you did with everything else. (Genericcoop (talk) 22:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC))

I don't know if you sent this to my talk page or if one of these lying vandals did it but if you did it is shameful: ''I have fully protected the article. Remember, articles on WP have to be written to A Neutral Point of View, and that goes doubly so for articles dealing with people, especially Biographies of Living People. Your information seems to fail those policies, and I urge you to cease and desist. SirFozzie (talk) 21:34, 17 February 2010 (UTC)''

Why would you urge me to cease and desist when you haven't read any of the information that has been deleted? Why don't you urge the people who vandalized the page to desist from removing truthful information? What criteria did you use to deem my comments lies and their deletions trustworthy?(Genericcoop (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)) Genericcoop (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If I were you, I'd pick my next edit summary carefully. Half  Shadow  22:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Genericcoop, I'm trying to help you here.. you are not doing your case any good here. Yes I did, and as I suggested, I suggest you read them before you edit any further. SirFozzie (talk) 22:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I have spent the last hour looking for any justifications for the deletions or any explanations for why these things are not neutral. Where is your argument? Is there a separate page where you have posted any explanations? I have refreshed my article page and it shows the same bunch of bull that was written before I edited the page. Are you telling me none of this is non-neutral?

On January 10, 2009, de Juana participated in a Peace March held in Belfast, Northern Ireland. The purpose of the march was to express grievances against the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in Gaza and to express hopes for peace to the Irish government. However, Spanish newspapers, such as elmundo.es, expressed disgust that de Juana, having been convicted of causing many deaths, would be so duplicitous as to publicly march for peace.

Where is the source for this information? Why haven't you deleted it? You have deleted all the information I provided including all sources and yet you have not checked for errors or unsourced statements any of the existing paragraphs. This whole biography is propaganda. Regarding your advice or anybody else's: I don't care what you think. You have deleted truthful information and any threats regarding anybody's right to contest your authority or the validity of your claims are abuse of power. Who is the next authority above an administrator? Every hour that goes by without you restoring the insults that this unrepentant murderer uttered adds on to the pain of their relatives. (Genericcoop (talk) 23:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC))

Why is ETA referred to as a paramilitary group or, even worse, as a separatist group? What makes ETA, ETA is the fact that they intimidate, kidnap, blackmail, and kill people. I know many separatist groups that don't engage in any of the above. Listing ETA as a separatist group is like listing Hitler as as a vegetarian, or Stalin as a seminarist: true but irrelevant and misleading. There are many separatist organizations that don't engage in these activities and according to Wikipedia administrators they are all the same. What historiographic criteria does Wikipedia follow here? (Genericcoop (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC))

De Juana Chaos is listed as a soldier or another similar military category. This man is not a soldier: he placed bombs and blew people up and shot people in the head regardless of whether they were civilians or public officials. Are we saying here that a soldier from a standing army is the same as a terrorist that has confessed to several murders and has explictly said that he did it in order to achieve political goals? (Genericcoop (talk) 23:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC))

I just found out that SirFozzie is a member of the arbitration committee in Wikipedia. According to these rules it seems that two administrators have already cooperated in banning these additions. I will wait 48 hours and then will open a RfC. That if I haven't misread the hundreds of pages required to understand how to do anything on Wikipedia. I shouldn't have inquired my students about Wikipedia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Genericcoop (talk • contribs) 23:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * If you wish to file a RfC, or raise a complaint at The Incidents Noticeboard, you can certainly do so if you wish. I doubt you'd be getting the kuind of reception you are hoping for... SirFozzie (talk) 00:31, 18 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you think he's buggered off for good, or is he just sharpening his axe ready for when the protection expires? 2 lines of K  303  14:34, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Amend Brews_ohare sanctions, or not
Can we wind this up? I think we need a motion, and arbitrators' final thoughts. Brews ohare (talk) 01:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Brews.. at this time I don't think there is any need for any motions.. it looks like there's no desire to change the remedies as they stand. SirFozzie (talk) 02:41, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Final discussion for Requests for comment/Biographies of living people
Hello, I note that you have commented on the first phase of Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

As this RFC closes, there are two proposals being considered:
 * 1) Proposal to Close This RfC
 * 2) Alternate proposal to close this RFC: we don't need a whole new layer of bureaucracy

Your opinion on this is welcome. Okip  03:29, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Regarding your point C
Hello SirFozzie. I read point C on your talk page and decided to pipe up. I don't want to use up your time. I just want to request that you please take a close look at my case, and make sure that you have come to the same conclusion about my editing as has Sandstein (I suppose noting my response to his remarks.) I know that arbcom gave the power to administrators to make such decisions, but there are two issues here. The first is that I don't even think the basis of the call was sound, and I outline why in some detail in my request for amendment (wrongly placed, sorry about that). The second is that I was not even told that I may be subject to discretionary sanctions, which is supposed to be part of the process. Still, no one has made clear which policies I have broken. My point to you is this: if you are going to support Sandstein's decision, then I just request that you make sure you have come to the same conclusions that he has. If it's simply a matter of reemphasising that administrators are allowed to make those calls, without seeing whether they are sound or not, then 1) what role does the appeal process play? and 2) at the very least, I would point out the lack of procedure in this case and call for the decision to be "struck out" (hopefully that's the right legal term). So, if the rationale is that admins have this power, end of story, then I would suggest at least making sure it's being applied within the stipulated rules. I don't mean to harp. I won't write to you again unless I feel it's important. -- Asdfg 12345  13:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi. Thanks for your message.. let me review the situation, may take a day or so to get up to speed. SirFozzie (talk) 22:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I left further notes in a last statement. I only note here so I know it's been read. -- Asdfg 12345  03:23, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I did read that. My personal inclination is to still let this stand, without blocking you off from seeking a community consensus to nullify and/or overturn the sanction. As I said previously, administrators working in the area of ArbCom Enforcement have a large amount of leeway in how they apply sanctions. SirFozzie (talk) 20:03, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I need to step up work on my thought-reading machine, because I am just too curious about the collective understanding of committee members on this case. I will probably seek community consensus on it. I'm not sure how that process works, but presumably one part of it may require a fuller elaboration on the rationale for the block, taking into account my response. If the wiki community indeed regards me as a black sheep, then I will have nothing to say. But it will have proven wrong my long held assumptions about the transparency, rationality, and rule-of-law (as opposed to 'rule by man') approach I thought wiki was based on. I really presume that what I'm accused of doing is violating the "spirit of Wikipedia" rather than any actually identifiable or specific violation of the rules. One editor who has regularly expressed disapproval of my comments and sourcing has said that. I can also reach no other conclusion based on the process of the AE appeal so far. But my biggest complaint would be how due process has been knowingly ignored. What can ya do? -- Asdfg 12345  02:43, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Final note. I won't apply for any kind of community appeal, and I'm sorry to have wasted your time, my time, and the time of other editors and admins. I saw an exchange between Shell Kinney and Olaf Stephanos which makes the situation very clear. I had thought that the policies were like a book of law that you just had to stick to and keep within. But it's actually much more about perceptions, social capital, and branding. And nonconformists may have extraordinary measures applied to them. Never mind when propaganda comes from editors who are integrated into Wikipedia, and "outsiders" wish to fix things and explicitly follow all relevant rules when doing so. If you are seen as an advocate, especially for a perceived NRM (but not for science) you are not welcome. It doesn't matter if you are reasonable and law-abiding or not. This is probably just a necessary evil and compromise given Wikipedia's openness and potential for real bad guys to exploit the system. I maintain that I am not one of the bad guys, have kept strictly within policy, and have only ever wished for a professional treatment of Falun Gong. I have been polite nearly all the time, and frequently compromised, shared ideas, and worked with whoever was interested to build the pages. I do not want to see a whitewashing or exclusion of criticism. But doing Wikipedia properly means no propaganda, stringent sourcing, and inclusion of every significant perspective. All that is explicitly within Wikipedia's policies. I am not sure who will have the mettle to challenge the editors dedicated to promoting a negative view of Falun Gong - and their sympathisers - who are seen as part of the community. The silent consent to these ideologically motivated activities allows a page to go from this (11,200 words) to this (2,500 words).-- Asdfg 12345  23:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I have been editing Falun Gong articles on and off for three years now. It has not been easy and I have taken long "FLG holidays" on two previous occasions; I am on another one now. Although he is rumoured to be an employee of The Epoch Times, I can attest to the fact that asdfg has been the most reasonable Falun Gong editor among those I have had the pleasure of working with –actually, he's the ONLY one who I have productively worked with. I have found he is prepared to work with editors in an non-doctrinaire manner, argues his case by trying to be objective and not always from a Falun Gong perspective, and rarely engages in warring. While I do not regret the absence of the other FLG SPAs, who have caused me a great deal of stress in the past and led to my FLG holidays, I believe asdfg makes a valuable contribution to the project. As for the 'Persecution' article, there does seem to be some loss, but it's important not overstate it. I won't go into any analysis of the material removed, but if we used strictly quantitative measures and compared like with like, the original 'Persecution' article before it got moved and split into two was 10016 words "readable prose size". Today, the History article stands at 6326 words "readable prose size", while 'persecution' stands at 2329 words. Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 03:15, 2 March 2010 (UTC)