User talk:Skn95

Florida Gators football
Greetings. I'm sure that you think you are acting in the best interests of the University of Florida and its sports program my attempting to include minority poll championships and first-place SEC finishes in the Florida Gators football article. You are not. Those of us alumni who lived through the 1979-1989 Pell/Hall era were humiliated by the cheating of our football coaches and the impotent sports administration that could not control it. Let's discuss the particulars.

1. vacated 1984 SEC championship: won on the field, and subsequently vacated by a 6-4 vote of the SEC university presidents in May 1985. The university president, Marshall Criser, fired coach Charley Pell, when the NCAA delivered its 107 allegations of major rules infractions. Neither the University of Florida nor its University Athletic Association claim the 1984 SEC championship. If you doubt me, please feel free to review the current 2012 Florida Football Media Guide.

2. 1985 SEC "championship": Gators finished tied 5-1 with Tennessee, and were ineligible for the SEC championship because of NCAA probation. The university and the athletic association do not claim it. (Please linked media guide above.)

3. 1990 SEC "championship": Spurrier's first Gators team finished 7-0, but was ineligible for the SEC championship because of NCAA probation. The university and the athletic association do not claim it. (Please linked media guide above.)

4. 1984 "national championship": The New York Times and a handful of other minor national championship selectors picked the 9-1-1 Gators, notwithstanding the fact that the Gators were already on NCAA probation and were ineligible for a bowl bid. These selectors included neither of the two major NC selectors, the AP Poll and the UPI/Coaches Poll. Like the SEC "championships" above, the university and the athletic association do not claim it. (Please linked media guide above.)

5. 1985 "national championship": a small handful of minor national championship selectors picked the 9-1-1 Gators, notwithstanding the fact that the Gators were already on NCAA probation and were ineligible for a bowl bid or the SEC championship. These selectors included neither of the two major NC selectors, the AP Poll and the UPI/Coaches Poll, nor any other noteworthy selector. Like the SEC "championships" above, the university and the athletic association do not claim it. (Please linked media guide above.)

In short, these "championships" are not championships, the university does not claim them, the SEC does not recognize them, and they represent a humiliating era for many Florida alumni, when our football coaches (and some of our alumni) embarrassed the university and the honest people associated with it. The on-the-field finishes are already explained in the history section of the article. Claiming these unclaimed non-championships simply makes the University of Florida, its alumni, and Gators fans look like unreconciled supporters of cheating and bad behavior. Too many people associated with the university have fought that perception, and to implement a reformed athletic program that has avoided any serious run-in with the NCAA since 1989. Please respect that.

Regarding Wikipedia policy and guidelines governing the inclusion of text, any material that is unsupported by independent, verifiable, reliable sources per WP:V and WP:RS is subject to deletion. The University of Florida and the University Athletic Association do not claim these championships, and no sources exist that state that they do. The SEC does not recognize these championships, and no sources exist that state that it does. The NCAA does list all national championship selectors in its football records book, but it does not distinguish between consensus national championships, and major and minor selectors. Of course, the NCAA does not endorse or officially recognize any of these selectors; it merely lists them.

I ask that you respect what the University of Florida has chosen to do, and its own desire not to recognize any of these questionable championships. To many of us who believe in integrity in college sports, it is an article of faith that never again will our university turn a blind eye to cheating in college sports. If you are a university alumnus or even just a Gators fan, you should respect the choices that the university has made. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Dirtlawyer1,


 * Thank you for your messages. I am an alum and a lifelong fan. The only reason I wanted to recognize those titles was because the players deserve some recognition. Our program, which you are very knowledgeable about, was great in the 1980s on the field. I just wish it would get more recognition.


 * Skn, there are explicit mentions of the accolades of the 1984 and 1985 teams in the history section of Florida Gators football, Florida Gators football, 1980–1989, Kerwin Bell, Neal Anderson, John L. Williams, Jeff Zimmerman, Lomas Brown, Crawford Ker and Ricky Nattiel. The seamier side is also discussed in Charley Pell, Marshall Criser, Galen Hall, Robert A. Bryan.  No one is trying to hide the accomplishments of the 1984 and 1985 teams, but context is important.  There are several of us who have worked like the dickens to clean up these Gators sports articles over the last four years, and, yes, there's still a lot to do, but we don't want to go back to the fancrufty garbage that was here before.  Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a blog or fansite.  These articles are not supposed to be rah-rah propaganda, but a neutrally worded, factual telling of the program's history.  Fortunately for the University of Florida, we have a mostly good story to tell.  It's a true-life rags to riches story of which every alumnus should be proud.  We don't need to gild the lily and invent championships and titles, but it requires telling the whole story, without taking an apologetic tone, rewriting history, hiding the warts or holding anything back.  I believe that the university, together with its larger community of students, alumni and fans, look better for having confronted these issues and overcome them.


 * If you have additional sourced text or commentary that you would like to see added regarding the 1984, 1985 and 1990 teams, let's talk about it. But, please, let's leave the claims of bogus "championships" to Alabama and the like.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)