User talk:Skycrab

Cucuy cave
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Cucuy cave, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you agree with the deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add  to the top of Cucuy cave. WTucker (talk) 18:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Cucuy Cave
Hi Skycrab. I have added a deletion proposal to Cucuy cave asserting lack of notability. I contacted the Texas Speleological Survey and several National Speleological Society members who know San Saba County well and they had no record of a cave at this location. I am not doubting you, mind you, the bad air certainly rings true as lots of caves in San Saba County have bad air. I am questioning the notability of the subject.

There are currently 641 Texas Speleological Survey records for San Saba County now including this one (SAB601 - a rumored cave). Colorado Bend State Park claims 388 of those records and 219 caves.

Also, several, including me, have expressed concerns about publishing the GPS coordinates for this cave (or any cave like it) in such a public place. This could inspire someone, ill-prepared, to set off with GPS in hand and to trespass on posted, private property and enter a dangerous cave. This could do great damage to the cave, the landowner relations with other cavers, caving in general and the individual.

Please do not take this as a personal affront. I mean nothing personal by proposing deletion of the article. In fact, I and the TSS really appreciate knowing about this possible cave which was not known before. But, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, it is not notable here.

If you ever turn up any more leads, there is a quick-and-easy form on the TSS website (www.txspeleologicalsurvey.org) to record that information and turn it into the state cave files.

Thanks, WTucker (talk) 18:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Cucuy cave
An article that you have been involved in editing, Cucuy cave, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Cucuy cave. Thank you. WTucker (talk) 22:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Cucuy cave
Hi, Skycrab.

I just want to try to clear up some stuff about this deletion nomination.

First, I don't usually nominate articles for deletion. This is the first one I have even attempted and I would not have done it this time if the GPS coordinates had not been included in the article. Even removing the GPS coordinates in a later revision keeps them in the history. It is likely that another editor would have nominated this article at some point, though because of the lack of independent, verifiable sources -- but I wouldn't have been that editor.

I did not make the original research argument because it is difficult to tell whether it is based on original research or some obscure source. The notability argument was strongest and is easily understood by those that don't know caves. They can simply do a Google search to see what hits are available.

Please understand that I do not doubt that the cave exists and that it may be a very significant cave. To me, any cave is significant. But, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, notability is not truth it is verifiable from other sources.

I am not trying to attack you in any way. I am trying to protect this cave. I have seen first hand what terrible damage can be done to a significant cave in a very short time. Caves are significant because of their archeology, biology, speleology, hydrology, sediments, fossils, speleothems, artifacts and on and on. All of these are threatened by publishing the coordinates of a vulnerable cave. I like caves and I want to see this one protected properly and not threatened. It should be surveyed, mapped, inventoried and studied while carefully preserving and protecting everything about it. The proper way to do that is through the National Speleological Society and not Wikipedia.

I hope you understand, if not please let me know and I will try to explain. If you need some help with how best to document this cave, I can point you in the right direction.

Thanks, WTucker (talk) 17:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)