User talk:Smashhoof

Tones of umgibeli
I wonder where you got these. I could always use more sources for tones. CodeCat (talk) 21:02, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I got it from Doke and Vilakazi's 1958 Zulu-English dictionary. It's the only dictionary I could find that marks tone. The way it marks tone is rather weird though, and they don't seem to acknowledge the difference between short and long forms of words. Whether the marked tone is a long or short form seems to be rather idiosyncratic. The short form of "umgibeli" was marked so I had to figure out the underlying tones based on the tonal rules on Zulu grammar. Speaking of that, those tonal rules are really helpful! Did you put those there? Where did you find them? --Smashhoof2 (talk) 00:52, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I have the same dictionary, but I'm not sure why you think that the given form is the short (medial) form. I guess your reasoning is that a final form would have the tone on the antepenultimate syllable, which then gets displaced to the penultimate by the depressor? I think this reasoning is sound as such, but we are dealing with a noun derived from a verb, not a verb itself. Does the medial-final distinction apply to nouns in the same way it does to verbs? I recall reading, but I can't remember where, that nouns derived from verbs generally appear in the medial tone pattern.
 * As for the tone rules, I actually got them from a source on Xhosa tone, but found that they are a good way to describe Zulu tones as well. I later got two more sources, Local and metrical tone shift in Nguni and Khumalo's Zulu Tonology. The former covers the Zunda Nguni languages (not the Tekela ones, despite its name) while the latter covers Zulu specifically. The former is helpful in that it covers some of the differences between the languages, such as the collapsing of the two tonal patterns of trisyllabic verbs (HLL and HHL in Xhosa) into a single one (LHL) in Zulu. It also notes that in high-toned verbs like these, with an initial low tone, noun prefixes can be either HL or LH, i.e. either as if the underlying pattern were HHL or LHL. For example, both úkusebénza and ukúsebénza are possible. There is no úkusébenza though, so presumably there is no úmgibêli either, only úmgibéli (and perhaps uḿgibéli?) CodeCat (talk) 13:41, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I did some more reading and I think that in a trisyllabic high verb, the tonal pattern is always underlying HLL or HHL surfacing as LHL, so with a HL noun prefix or optionally an LH one. This applies whether the verb is medial or final. It is only with low-tone verbs that there is a distinction: a medial form will have a penultimate shift instead of an antepenultimate shift. Local and metrical tone shift in Nguni gives the example balimísa, in which -limisa is low-toned and the subject prefix bá- is high. The final form of this is given as bayálimisa.
 * Also, it suggests that the shift of an initial high tone to the medial syllable in also occurs trisyllabic nouns, not just in verbs. The examples mbuzána and siboshwána are given. However, I'm not sure if these examples are sound. ímbûzi is underlyingly HH, so when you extend it with a low syllable you get HHL, which the left deletion rule reduces to LHL, giving the attested ímbuzána. It appears that there are very few if any underived trisyllabic stems with an underlying HLL pattern that could shift to LHL in the first place.
 * The reason here seems to be that in the history of Proto-Nguni, HL stems became HH whenever the vowel of the first syllable was short in Proto-Bantu. This vowel length difference was lost in Nguni, but the tone difference reveals it. HL stems are thus either derived from monosyllabic H roots, or come from roots with original long vowels. In Xhosa, this distinction remains in trisyllabic verbs too, with HLL stems representing the original long-vowel stems while HHL stems had original short vowels in the first syllable. In Zulu, both of these verbs collapse into HHL, which is then reduced to LHL by left deletion (in Xhosa, left deletion is optional). For disyllabic verbs, the distinction is slowly waning in Zulu, and Doke's dictionary doesn't reveal it, but you can sometimes tell through verbal derivatives: -thânda is a HH stem because its derivative ûthândo is also HH, whereas -zála is HL because its derivative úmzáli is HL. CodeCat (talk) 14:31, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

inxeba
I noticed that you added a long vowel mark to the first syllable of this word on Zulu language. But I'm not sure why it would be long, it's a class 9 noun not a class 5 noun. Can you explain? Rua (mew) 15:44, 18 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Inxeba is class 5 according to Doke and Oxford Living Dictionaries. For what it's worth, it is class 5 in Xhosa as well according to this site. Smashhoof2 (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it's given as class 9 on isizulu.net. But given your evidence that's probably a mistake. Rua (mew) 12:37, 19 June 2018 (UTC)