User talk:Smirkybec/Archives/2022/June

June events from Women in Red
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 09:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Twitter Survey
Hello! A couple years ago you did a Twitter survey about Hiberno-English vs Irish English. I'm wondering if (if you have any free time or the wherewithal), you'd be able to do something like that for England English vs English English vs Anglo-English (vs maybe even just Other). Not sure how the Twitterz work. Thanks for any help! Wolfdog (talk) 15:56, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
 * interesting idea! That time I was a curator on the Motherfoclóir podcast twitter account which meant it had a BIG following, I don't have access to that and also, I don't think that audience would have as much of a buy-in on that question (I might be wrong). Ideally you'd get someone like No Such Thing as a Fish, Dan Schrieber, or Susi Dent to tweet about it! Smirkybec (talk) 14:34, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, I appreciate the explanation. I'm a Twitter-ignoramus! Wolfdog (talk) 00:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

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Crisp sandwich article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisp_sandwich)
So, here's the problem with the article as it stands: The entire tone of the article implies that the "crisp sandwich" is a relatively modern UK invention/phenomenon, when numerous sources (several of which I've provided already) clearly establish that it's a US invention that's been around for more than 70 years, possibly longer. I'm guessing the article was first written by a Brit with quite a bit of cultural bias, and although it contains a plethora of sources, what's being conveyed is still false/misleading.

I'm not entirely sure why my initial web link to a Reddit thread, which includes a scan from an American newspaper circa 1951 with an actual potato chip sandwich recipe, isn't considered "reliable" or at the very least evidence that it didn't originate in the UK. A similar recipe also appeared nearly 40 years ago in the American "White Trash Cooking" book, which I also referenced. Compare these with the existing enumerated sources, none of which establish that it's a UK-only recipe. If anything, reference [1] itself indicates otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C0:881:8200:4CAD:995B:1F5A:12C1 (talk) 18:44, 16 June 2022 (UTC)


 * It is interesting that you are talking about a cultural bias while citing the "UK" when the article clearly has a lot more content talking about the crisp sandwich in Ireland, and also mentions Australia. The problem is your complete re-framing of the article without discussion, the dish might have existed for a long time in the US as well, but that doesn't mean you can just override the current framing completely. Also the way in which you are phrasing the sentence you're attempting to add is biased and doesn't adhere to WP:NPOV. On a more technical note, pointing to a Reddit thread is not a reliable citation or good practice on Wikipedia, if you mean to cite the newspaper article then cite the newspaper article. Local newspapers don't hold as much weight on Wikipedia as sources in general. As I don't have access to the book, I cannot comment on that citation.
 * TLDR don't continuously revert, and perhaps engage sooner so that we can reach consensus sooner. Smirkybec (talk) 19:06, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Whether it mentions the UK, Ireland, or Australia, the dish is a US invention, and that's not really open to debate. The current "framing" is a falsehood, and my reverting back to the changes I made is simply to make the article more accurate. I don't find anything especially biased about what I wrote, as contrasted with the rest of the article which is clearly an attempt by someone outside the US to take credit for the recipe based on local anecdotal evidence.
 * All of that said, my inclination is to again revert the article, citing the recipe I mentioned. If the goal here is to present accurate information, then what I wrote needs to be included. By all rights the entire article should be re-written to remove its current UK/Ireland slant and probably be retitled "potato chip sandwich" as well, so I don't think adding one line for clarification is at all unreasonable. 2601:8C0:881:8200:4CAD:995B:1F5A:12C1 (talk) 03:18, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * In addition to the changes I had already made, I would also be removing the specious claim in paragraph 2 that the UK and Ireland "are both believed to be the countries of the sandwich's origin.[10][11]" as well as citations 10 and 11 altogether as they contain no evidence whatsoever to support such a claim, nor do they even mention the sandwich's origins. Have a look yourself. 2601:8C0:881:8200:4CAD:995B:1F5A:12C1 (talk) 03:37, 17 June 2022 (UTC)


 * I gave you the benefit of the doubt, if you think *2* citations overwrite the most of the current article then you will not get very far. Your attitude to other Wikipedians and not wanting to discuss this means you will not be successful. Good luck. Smirkybec (talk) 08:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * None of the existing citations have any evidentiary value as to the origin of the sandwich, rendering the claims in the article baseless. I'm also getting the impression that you haven't actually read them.
 * To be honest I find it a bit suspicious that the article makes virtually no mention of the United States despite the potato chip sandwich being a staple of the American diet for decades. Considering it's universally agreed upon that the potato chip was invented in the US in the 1850s, it stands to reason that the US would be the first to put them in a sandwich.
 * I found what appears to be a very early version of the same Wikipedia article (https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11532398) that not only makes no claim of a UK/Ireland origin, but in fact says "Potato chip sandwiches are sometimes referred to as 'trailer park cuisine'" (an Americanism) with a reference to an American recipe from the 1980s. I've looked through much of the article's revision history and at some point it lost any semblance of objectivity and was co-opted to push some dubious cultural narrative involving the British Isles.
 * At any rate, if we can't reach a consensus despite the ample evidence of a US origin, then I'm afraid I have to insist that the article be flagged as inaccurate/disputed. 2601:8C0:881:8200:DDB4:2D28:3E38:28AD (talk) 09:54, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * kindly refrain from posting this to my talk page and take it to the talk page of the article, where it belongs. Smirkybec (talk) 10:23, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red in July 2022
--Lajmmoore (talk) 15:49, 27 June 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging