User talk:Snow Rise/Archive 12

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The Signpost: 16 January 2018
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Please comment on Talk:Kenny Biddle
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Category:Wikipedians who like Black Mirror
Hey! I saw that you edited the article Black Mirror and thought maybe you would be interested in this new user category I created?- 🐦Do☭torWho42 ( ⭐ ) 01:30, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:James D. Zirin
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Please comment on Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)
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The Signpost: 5 February 2018
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Please comment on Talk:David Wolfe (entrepreneur)
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Please comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jacob Strandell
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WikiProject X Newsletter • Issue 11
Newsletter • February 2018

Check out this month's issue of the WikiProject X newsletter, with plans to renew work with a followup grant proposal to support finalising the deployment of CollaborationKit!

-— Isarra ༆ 21:26, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Seth MacFarlane
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Please comment on Talk:2018
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The Signpost: 20 February 2018
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Please comment on Talk:Coco Austin
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Please comment on Talk:Shin Dong-hyuk
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Please comment on Talk:Dana Loesch
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Please comment on Talk:Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon
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Please comment on Talk:Peter Thiel
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Signpost issue 4 – 29 March 2018
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Please comment on Talk:Abiy Ahmed Ali
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Please comment on Talk:Doug Ford Jr.
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Please comment on Talk:1953 Iranian coup d'état
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The Signpost: 26 April 2018
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Please comment on Talk:Dana Loesch
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Please comment on Talk:John R. Bolton
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Please comment on Talk:Nicholas Hoult
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Incivility
Please note that your edit summary "A user who scans and obsessively responds to every infobox discussion on the project is plastering DS warnings to those random users who were brought to one such discussion by an RfC notice? Yeah, we're getting back towards another ArbCom case for sure." is uncivil and is in certain breach of the very notice I left on your page (and calling another user obsessive is uncivil. Your comment is also incorrect. I do not respond to every IB discussion, and indeed I ignore most of them, as my evidence at the recent ArbCom case showed very carefully. Neither have I been "plastering DS warnings to those random users who were brought to one such discussion". You were the only one at which I placed a warning, and I did so because your comments crossed a line. If you took a few seconds to check, it was an Arb,, who placed the notices on the talk pages of the other users. If you are going to be uncivil to me or about me, please at least get the facts correct when you do so. – SchroCat (talk) 20:55, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * SchroCat, it was perhaps a bit more terse than it needed to be, but regardless of whether you respond literally to every last infobox discussion on the project, I can tell you with absolute certainty that you have shown up at every such discussion that I have been RfC'd to on this topic, going back quite a few years. Every one.  To be fair to you and your "side" in these ridiculous "infobox wars", you are not the only one; I knew, for example, that it was only a matter of time before I saw Gerda's name pop up too, for example.  There's about a dozen or more of you (about evenly distributed between the two sides) that I expect to see every time I get an RfC notice to a discussion involving an infobox, and it is clear at this point that both sides have clearly organized complicated mechanisms for knowing about these discussions and coordinating mass responses, which needlessly complicates the discussion with the same old arguments from both of the utterly intractable roving feud, that moves from article to article.  Even where this behaviour does not rise to a per se violation of WP:CANVAS, it certainly is in clear violation of the spirit of the policy.  And frankly, often it is clear that the level of coordination is probably a brightline violation of the policy as well. You aren't all just ending up at these discussions by accident, clearly.


 * I am not the first and I will not be the last to tell you that community patience has been pretty thoroughly exhausted with this behaviour; indeed that is something which ought to have been clear from the last ArbCom case to which you were subject. From my perspective looking in on this feud, I can see how both sides have trapped themselves in an arms race, where the other does not want to give ground on these practices because they fear the other will exploit their silence.  So each side tracks these discussions and shows up ready to litigate the matter to the extremes, despite the fact that each side already knows the arguments the other will present, rather than just leaving the matter to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS as it is meant to operate in these circumstances.  You should know that for the last couple of years of having to watch this disruptive mess unfold time after time, I've been contemplating putting before the community a proposal for a sanction that would limit all of you cannot restrain your responses to this topic to involvment in a set number of such discussions per year.  After watching hundreds of local discussions, numerous ANIs, and ArbCom cases, it is clear self-regulation is not an option for some.  As to my "crossing a line", I find that suggestion bemusing; my comments were brief, perfectly civil, and I was only at that discussion by way of a random RfC notice.  I shared my perspective on the issue in a appropriate fashion, as I always do when I get a random notice.  I'm curious if you can elucidate me as to how you arrived at that discussion, though?


 * In any event, however pro forma a DS notice may be in most contexts, you should know it sometimes feels like they are being used in the context of this battle as a bludgeon, to either chill discussion or to posture, especially when they are used repeatedly by the same heavily involved parties of this roving dispute, and put on the talk pages of other editors who disagreed with their interpretation of the issue and who clearly already know about the DS status of the topic field. I may have been the only recipient on this occasion, but I think we both know that you are no stranger to that notice, and I would caution a more restrained use (i.e. actually informing people who are unaware of the existence of the sanctions, rather than trying to make a point).  Again, my edit summary was perhaps more terse than it needed to be, but it comes from a place of real frustration and declining patience from this community on this battle to which you (amongst several others) are a regular and persistent party. Snow let's rap 21:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * How I arrived here? I watch the page. How I arrived at the actor? I saw a link in a complaint. I consistently believe that telling readers at a glance when and where a person was born doesn't hurt, but my patience with being blamed for organizing a "side" in a "war" is also getting thinner. Several others happen to believe the same, that's all. I received my DS notice by RexxS, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:12, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Well Gerda, I'm generally in agreement with you on that underlying content issue--in a majority of contexts, anyway. But I believe these discussions become overly inflammatory and needlessly complicated as a consequence of the fact that two groups of editors regularly parachute into each and every infobox discussion (or at least every last one that I have seen going back years), prepared to slug it out once again.  In my opinion that is an abrogation of the normal local consensus process; the editors already working on the article in question would normally be able to come to a consensus decision on the matter much more quickly and efficiently if not for the influence of these two groups, with their strong and increasingly inflexible positions on the matter.  Furthermore, the two groups normally cancel out eachother's !votes, meaning you are all bloating these discussions for very little in terms of shifting the needle on the outcome of these discussions.  If both groups could agree to stop these practices, a lot of editorial time would be saved for both groups and for the community at large.


 * I honestly don't know how much the presence of these same actors is the result of tracking Wikiprojects, or stalking eachother's talk pages, or direct communication between the involved editors (on project or off) but I do know that it is a statistical impossibility that we'd be seeing the same people at each of these discussions if they were arriving there organically through random notices and coming across the issues at random. You are all clearly making a concerted effort to form ranks for each such discussion.  I'm sure that the techniques among these parties vary considerably, and some are more directly in violation of WP:CANVAS than others; I'm sure some of you at least probably manage to arrive at these discussions without doing anything that is a brightline violation of policy.  But I continue to feel that what you all do collectively to bring your stock arguments to bear on these discussions is disruptive and counterproductive to our normal consensus processes and at least in violation of the spirit of those policies which are meant to keep the same groups of editors from showing up en masse for discussion after discussion on the same topic.  Many of you have received warnings about conduct in this vein from one community body or another, but the habits persist, within the margins between those behaviours prohibited by policy and those which are not.  I just wish you would all take a break from infobox discussions for a year and let the regular editors of given articles debate the matter for themselves--in most cases they will be perfectly capable of forming a reasonable consensus, and when they can't, that's what RfCs are for.  The regular infobox partisans only bring more volume, and often more heat, and you've locked eachother into this cycle.  But as I said above, self-regulation seems to be a non-starter here, and I suspect the community will eventually have to once again step in with one solution or another, whether it is by tightening the wording of WP:CANVAS or once again scrutinizing the behaviour of particular editors who can't seem to drop the stick on infoboxes. S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 23:22, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I noticed Nicholas Hoult . (I have to admit that I don't know him as an actor, and when I saw the name in requests for FAC review, I postponed it.) Look in the edit history (of that article or any other) for the names of my close friends (WP:QAI), - we all try to avoid the topic, afaik. If you have the time, make a little list of names in the history of discussions or edit wars, and check if it's really "the same names" who believe that nothing is wrong with a bit of structured information at the top. There are only few who believe otherwise. If these few would keep their belief to articles they write, and not carry it to those that others have written, the "war" would be over. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Gerda, I know each little step you take in this contest of wills feels natural to you, but I'd like to point something out for your consideration: when I received that RfC notice and realized what the discussion was about on arrival, I predicted the arrival of the regular infobox partisans about half a day before you and Schrocat showed up there. That's how predicable the activities of both groups are (and have been for a long time).  I didn't manage that because I know a magic trick, I simply pointed to an inevitability. As I said above, some of the means by which you all keep arriving at these discussions may be less of a brightline violation of policy than others are.  There are very likely times that these editors arrive at these discussions completely by random.  But the overall pattern precludes the possibility of editors who are generally "avoiding the topic" as you suggest you all are.  Though certainly some of you should be, as some have previously been given sanctions in this area.  And while I am not prepared to either refute your position that one side is more "aggressive" than the other when measured over time, I should like to point out that, though SchroCat participated in this latest thread, they have not (as yet) lodged a formal !vote, whereas you have. <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 09:03, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I still disagree. I avoid the topic, I don't initiate discussions the last was Pierre Boulez, 2015), I tell others not to do so, I review FAC without commenting the ibox (as SchroCat will confirm), I resist the temptation to revive that on Jean Sibelius, although he is going to appear with a featured picture, and the "no consensus" in the last discussion was weak. - I request, however to be permitted to go to an RfC, the same way as everybody else is. I considered not to comment at all on Nicholas Hoult, but changed my mind when I saw it "in danger", because some think the whole infobox has to go if one parameter is debatable (Alma mater). - There is no feud, try to see that. - Yes, I received sanctions, for no good reason (just for defending Andy, and for promoting infobox opera which is now part of around 1k articles, 982 as I write this), which were rescinded in 2015. - [[Messe solennelle (Vierne)|Singing is more fun!] --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:34, 20 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Actually SchroCat, I'd like to say that, with a day away from our discussion and another review of my edit summary, I can agree that I could have worded it differently. I should be clear that I do not agree with your description of it as uncivil, but it was perhaps a little more polemic than I generally try to be on-project.  Even though I feel that the use of that notice was inadvisable in the circumstances, nothing was stopping me from just removing it and holding my observations.  I do stand by my broader comments in the discussion above, but if I am going to utilize my position as an outsider to what I perceive as a feud to try to urge it to stop, I have to first hold myself to the strictest of standards of objective observation, or else I only undercut that effort. <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 08:26, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Observing Lund's Tower, determined to stay away. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

It seems to have been solved, but I wonder why a newcomer (not only to the topic but Wikipedia) was treated to editing by edit summary (several times), and not offered an explanation on their talk. I remember when I was new and was just surprised that an edit I made had "vanished", not knowing anything about article history and edit summaries. Of course, it first needs accepting that someone is new, AGF that is. Turned out they knew about edit summaries and history, a promising editor, I'd say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:17, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Leo Tolstoy
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Please comment on Talk:Wedding dress of Meghan Markle
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The Signpost: 24 May 2018
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Please comment on Talk:Julius Evola
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Tolstoy noodles
(He made wonderful noodles, every day for lunch, and invited guests for talks and feast) Hi, very nice user page!, and thanks on the Tolstoy comment. Saw your note, and answered there, and appreciate your effort and ideas. "Somewhere on the page" is my personal third choice, but still a choice, and thanks for originally bringing it up. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:45, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi, Randy! I never knew that about the noodles (or if I did, I'd forgotten) though it is completely consistent with the other details I've picked up over the years, regarding his daily regimen and minimalist lifestyle perspectives.  And thank you for the compliment as regards the user page; I'm sure you can see now why I was so pleased to meet a scholar working in the vein of non-violence, and humanism broadly. :)


 * I'm glad that you consider a non-lead mention as an option, but if I can give you some personal advice, I would switch to throwing your full weight behind that option sooner, rather than later, rather than give it comparably more tepid and short-shrift "third choice" support you have thus far. At present, we are almost three weeks into the RfC and because the !votes (on their face) will look like a landslide to a closer, the discussion could be closed at any point now.  I would suspect you that you have, at best, a week and a half to bring around a significant number of editors to avoid a close which reads consensus as requiring that Bevel not be mentioned in the article altogether.  Unfortunately, I fear the nuance of my and SMcCandlish's views endorsing the "somewhere on the page" solution may be lost if you keep your focus on the lead.  You may have already noted that I said as much on the talk just now (interlaced with some criticism which I hope you will interpret with the same civility and consideration you have previously displayed on that page, even as we have disagreed about particulars).


 * Whatever your approach or the immediate outcome, you can feel free to ping me back to the discussion if you feel I can be of assistance in rendering a consensus. In the meantime, happy editing--I hope you will continue to contribute in this most vital of areas! <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 01:48, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The noodle recipe and story behind it are in a book by Ryan Berry which is a collection of recipes from famous vegetarians. There is one by da Vinci that's amazing. Thanks for your comments, and you have been a calm voice within the discussion. I do go overboard sometimes, especially in such a long discussion where it seems I'm repeating myself while replying to individual editors, and I've explained a bit more on the talk page. The use of Bevel's name somewhere on the page, if at all, would depend on placement, what already exists on the page, and if there is further text about the impact of Tolstoy's book on the activists of the 20th century. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:19, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Randy, with regard to this I overstated my position. I do have some of those concerns about your objectivity and quasi-WP:SPA/COI focus on Bevel, but I have not done (nor intend to do) nearly the level of examination of other articles to corroborate or dismiss those concerns, and so I should probably have avoided re-introducing them into the discussion at all. Truthfully, my motivation was to strengthen the argument for inclusion of Bevel by, in effect, saying the following: "Yes, I share the skepticism and concerns voiced here regarding motivations, but that has only caused me to look at Randy's support for the mention of Bevel "under a microscope"/with an extra layer of skepticism. But even at that high standard, I think the case for some degree of inclusion has been met." But I could have done that without making reference to matters outside the present content dispute, so please do accept my apology for muddying the waters. I've made my response to you here, rather than on the talk page, so as not to provide encouragement to your opposition to take discussion back in that direction, which I think would be counter-productive.
 * Thanks, and no need at all to apologize. I appreciate your caring for Wikipedia, and delving into any editor's work who has an interest in a particular topic that they have researched and dwelt within, and are considered a subject matter expert in, but yet have spent considerable time editing Wikipedia, seems very appropriate. I would welcome any editor investigating my Bevel edits, and will answer any questions about them.


 * If someone does go through my edits one-by-one they would find I have interests in many areas. My interest in improving Wikipedia even extends to making it look more professional to readers, researchers, and those on the Nobel Peace Prize Committee (I've consistently said that Wikipedians will be the NPPrize recipient in 2024, give or take a couple of years).


 * But yes, of course I have an interest in seeing that Bevel gets accurate coverage across-the-board here, but because I hesitate to personally add the more historical ground-breaking aspects of my published papers into articles other than the Bevel page (and even there much is left out), that accuracy is a long way from being achieved. The main reason I've kept discussing at length and answering concerns at the Leo Tolstoy page is that the subjective word "pivotal" is used, without a qualifier such as "well known". Knowing that Bevel is among the Gandhi-King-Bevel trio of pivotal 20th century nonviolent activists, keeping his name in that sentence retains encyclopedic accuracy not only for Bevel and his accumulated accomplishments but for all of the involved topics (Tolstoy, Tolstoy's book, and Tolstoy's noodles). Randy Kryn (talk) 01:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you once again for your long and well-thought out suggestions at the Tolstoy page. You've spent a lot of time with that discussion, and have done much to stabilize and center its various wanderings and thoughts. You may get this a lot, but you seem to be one of the most level-headed, courteous, and thoughtful editors I've come across on the site. It's been a pleasure to see your work in action. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:34, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that Randy, truly. I also appreciate your consistently civil responses to issues raised on the talk page.  And this is as good a time as any to say that, despite some sharp criticisms on certain of those issues over the course of the discussion, the overall benefit of the discussion has been high, in my estimation; you may not have walked away from the consensus process with exactly what you had hoped to achieve at the outset, but the overall outcome of the discussion was to introduce new passage which covers an aspect of Tolstoy's legacy which was absent from the article previously, including some historical associations which I personally was previously unaware of before doing the research necessary to discuss the matter--so yay for learning too. :) <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 08:27, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * FYI, as I expect you may have replied on the talk page, I will try to respond there tomorrow. At the moment, I can barely keep my eyes open--a long last week, on the other side of the project portal. <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 08:30, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Joy-Ann Reid
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Please comment on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard
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Thanks for the well considered response
Just want to thank you for your clear and well considered response here. I don't agree with your conclusion, but I see your point. I just wish that Wikipedia had more collegial interactions like this. You made my day. Best, --LK (talk) 08:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you,, that is very kind of you to say. Like you, I put a premium on civility and good will as community values, so it is always nice to hear when my comments have been received in such a light. :) <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 12:00, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Comment on https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jon_Taffer&oldid=844210220
Why did you undo my revert due to WP:V while accepting the same edit that introduces broken grammar? Thanks. Narwaro (talk) 11:37, 3 June 2018 (UTC)


 * My mistake, I must have gotten mixed up while bouncing between diffs; I had meant to remove said content, not re-insert it. I'm not sure how I made that mistake, except to say I was looking through the string of edits by that single editor even as you accepted them.  In any event, my apologies on the needless revert. <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 12:29, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That is not a problem, I corrected it, after being a bit confused for a moment. Cheers, Narwaro (talk) 13:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

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New page reviewer granted
Hello Snow Rise. Your account has been added to the " " user group, allowing you to review new pages and mark them as patrolled, tag them for maintenance issues, or in some cases, tag them for deletion. The list of articles awaiting review is located at the New Pages Feed. New page reviewing is a vital function for policing the quality of the encylopedia; if you have not already done so, you must read the new tutorial at New Pages Review, the linked guides and essays, and fully understand the various deletion criteria. If you need more help or wish to discuss the process, please join or start a thread at page reviewer talk. The reviewer right does not change your status or how you can edit articles. If you no longer want this user right, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. In case of abuse or persistent inaccuracy of reviewing, the right can be revoked at any time by an administrator. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Please consider helping get the huge backlog down to a manageable number of pages as soon as possible.
 * Be nice to new users - they are often not aware of doing anything wrong.
 * You will frequently be asked by users to explain why their page is being deleted - be formal and polite in your approach to them too, even if they are not.
 * Don't review a page if you are not sure what to do. Just leave it for another reviewer.
 * Remember that quality is quintessential to good patrolling. Take your time to patrol each article, there is no rush. Use the message feature and offer basic advice.
 * Thank you for the request review, Tony! <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 16:53, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Mehmet Oz
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NPP Backlog Elimination Drive
Hello, thank you for your work reviewing New Pages!

We can see the light at the end of the tunnel: there are currently 2900 unreviewed articles, and 4000 unreviewed redirects.

Announcing the Backlog Elimination Drive! Go here to remove your name if you wish to opt-out of future mailings. —  Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)  06:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * As a final push, we have decided to run a backlog elimination drive from the 20th to the 30th of June.
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Please comment on Talk:H.J. Whitley
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ANI close
Series of edit conflicts -- sorry if I messed up some of your close. I moved my comment outside of the closure while, I think, you were reclosing and including it. My edit summary "bungled" was directed at myself (assuming I copied my comments without removing the original), not at you. :) &mdash; Rhododendrites  <sup style="font-size:80%;">talk \\ 23:34, 19 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Hah, no worries, Rhododendrites--thanks for the head's up! <b style="color: #19a0fd;">S</b><b style="color: #66c0fd">n</b><b style="color: #99d5fe;">o</b><b style="color: #b2dffe;">w</b> <b style="color: #d4143a">let's rap</b> 23:36, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

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The Signpost: 29 June 2018
<div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:29, 30 June 2018 (UTC)