User talk:Sollog/Archive 7

Trollish nonsense?
Why do you characterise steps that expose Wikipedians' fallacies in logic as 'trollish nonsense'? I have simply applied the same criteria used to dismiss UK posters as being 'Sollog proxies' to someone else. I am therefore criticising the methodology and it was reverted the very first time (when it could not have been trollish nonsense by definition). Why do you not instead have the confidence in your own position to counter what I write instead of deleting. This is a TALK page after all and your 'talk' seems to be one way and others are not listened to. Hayah.
 * Personally, I don't bother countering what you write because it's too boring. It's gotten old over the last few months.  Dbenbenn 22:52, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well as today is the first day I have ever posted I naturally counter your point about 'the last few months'. Secondly, until recently, no-one had used 'Ashley = Sollog' as a parallel to the dismissal of NON-sollog-fans as being sollog or sollog fans. I have used your own criteria to show you how ludricuous it is. Even when I post without exclamation marks someone 'trollishly' says it is a 'tirade'.Hayah.


 * You have to understand that you're not coming into a fresh debate, you're coming into one that's cold and mostly dead, now that Sollog & "fans" are not actively vandalising. It is understandable (from where I sit) that people have jumped the gun and called you Sollog and a troll, because everyone is hypersensitised by weeks of concerted attacks on this article and this talk page. So, dude, relax! If you keep slinging mud around, you will get mistaken for a troll and/or Sollog here. So, be civil, be careful, and watch what you step in.
 * However, you bring up a good point about that paragraph on open proxies and active times (though your method of bringing attention to it stinks.) See the section I just added below for my view on that (and take it as an example of how to proceed next time). &mdash; Saxifrage | &#9742; 23:05, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the reasoning behind the response - in fact it has been said before by people from the UK - they used the phrase 'knee-jerk' reaction. You say I am slinging mud - no I am not. Look beyond the people (Ashley/Sollog) and see that I am in fact calling the criteria for deletion into question. Hayah.


 * I don't want this to escalate further into a revert war, which is why I reply here, against the usual principle of DFTT. Claiming "Ashley P. is Sollog" is trollish nonsense. It's trollish because it invites the response "No, Ashley P. is not Sollog" plus ensuing discussion.  However, such a debate would be pointless and off-topic: the question who Ashley P. and Sollog really are is irrelevant.  No independent third party has made such a claim, so the issue does not need to be discussed in the article or on the talk page.  For all I know, Ashley P. may be one of Ennis's online personas, but that doesn't change the fact that User:Ashley Pomeroy is a valued contributor whereas the usual Slogpuppets are not.  For all I know, you may be actually travelling in the UK at the moment, which is why you're so sure that your IPs will check out.  None of this matters.  There is nothing to discuss here.  Starting a spurious debate is trolling, pure and simple. --MarkSweep 23:07, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No it does not invite the response 'Ashley is not Sollog' The reason is that I have made it ultra clear that my posts are not really Ashley =Sollog UNLESS (capitals for emphasis not for volume) you subscribe to the view that 'Sollog has no fans. You say you're in UK. That's impossible. You're Sollog' viewpoint. If that is your considered view i.e. that a poster cannot be in the UK and also not be Sollog and also write about Sollog, then Wikipedia as a whole is clearly too deep for you. Hayah. -   - Ashley is a valued contributor. Slogpuppets are not. But I and others in the UK fit into neither category i.e. no history so not regular contributors BUT equally, and most certainly, not Sollogpuppets. And yet...numerous posts have been deleted. Hayah. -   - Stating a spurious debate is trolling, yes. Deliberately misreading a debataing point is creating a straw man to knock it down. To repeatedly do it, as you and Wyss do on behalf of Wikipedia, is Institutionalised Trolling. Hayah. -   - I'll say it again. I am in the UK. Others have (and I have no reason to doubt this) said they're in the UK. Collectively we have either posted observations or pointed out some anti-Sollog things. The 'reward' has been...deletion usually without explanation. Hayah.


 * Your methods (so far) for exposing the methods in use as Wikipedia are inappropriately disruptive and combative. I, personally, don't think you're Sollog and never did. I have more patience than some editors. I've tried to dissuade you from the combative course you've set and I urge you to do so one more time. You will be dismissed by many people as a-pain-in-the-ass shit-disturber if you continue as you are. Amend your methods and continue your message, and you will have a much better likelyhood of being heard. You do want to be heard, yes? I hear your message, but do you care if anyone else does?
 * If you wish to adopt other methods, a good first step would be to stop arguing about what you did, and move on. If you belabour whether your methods were right or wrong, how do you ever expect to get around to talking about whether your message is right or wrong? &mdash; Saxifrage | &#9742; 03:23, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Do I want to be heard? I have assumed that those who delete or revert do read my prose first. Maybe it's enough just to register objections rather than having to sanitise to the point of oblivion. I don't swear. I don't accuse others of being sock-puppets. I draw interesting analogies between Sollog and Ashley. Hayah.

I think that's enough if readers are mature. Hayah.


 * I note the continual use of 'I am in the UK' rather than 'I am British' or 'I am from the UK' (the poster claims that others are 'from the UK', but not himself). It's an odd, ambiguous thing to say. -Ashley Pomeroy 09:28, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ashley should stop trying to fool the Americans - of course Preston: http://www.jiwire.com/wi-fi-wireless-hotspot-preston-victoria-au-le-croissant-connection-1056551.htm has the internet! Next you'll be selling London Bridge!Hayah.

It's an odd thing to have a picture on your Talk Page that is never updated and yet a timeframe is given for it. Life is full of oddities - just as your public work (a 'descent into madness') is. I am English. I live in England. Hayah.


 * Well, I believe that this link here quite conclusively proves that Preston is not yet internet-enabled, and possibly not yet connected to the telephone network; it's in the North of England, after all. As a purported native of the country you should know that already. As for your (cough) proof, it is clear from the use of the word 'croissant' that you are confusing Preston, Lancashire, with Preston, Loir et Cher, in France. -Ashley Pomeroy 14:13, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You really shouldn't mock the Americans that way Ashley!! They will read this: "I am assisting a lady in researching her husband's family. She does not have the internet and we do not have access to the BMD index in England. I wonder if there is SKS who can look up two marriages so that we might order the certificates. " (http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ENG-LANCS-PRESTON/2001-09/1001575004) and think that BMD is a typo for Broadband - mind you they probably think people in Salisbury have outdoor toilets - and people up North all work down t'mine. You have yet to provide any proof whatsoever that you're in the UK, BTW. Still...you're probably a Southampton supporter and so have enough problems. Hayah.


 * 'BMD' stands for 'Births, Marriages and Deaths', although it is also the designation for a series of wheeled Russian armoured cars. Nonetheless, it is clear that, not only do the people of Preston not have the internet, but also that they don't even have access to government records. I have relatives from Liverpool, and they have never once spoken to me of Preston's telecommunications infrastructure. Not once. Huddersfield, yes, they are effusive on the subject of Huddersfield's electronic enablement; but not Preston. I give you full marks for correctly guessing that Southampton is in the south of the country, however. -Ashley Pomeroy 15:35, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I give you full marks for conforming to the Kabbalian persona.Hayah.

Here is a lifeline for you: http://www.salisbury.gov.uk/council/press/2005/2005-01-13-a.asp

Hayah.

Paragraph on open proxies
The observations about open proxies and about Sollog and his "fans'" active periods seeming to coincide seems awfully close to original research and narrowly skirts self-reference. I don't think this section should be kept unless someone can dig up non-WP observations on this, and non-WP speculations about open proxies. We know it's true, sure, but what we know doesn't count&mdash;only what we can document outside of WP. &mdash; Saxifrage | &#9742; 23:05, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * What Saxifrage said. Dbenbenn 23:07, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Does Sollog's own news release count as a source? --MarkSweep 23:14, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * The reference to open proxies seems pretty damning to me. --Cchunder 23:42, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cardinal Chunder should join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sollog/ instead of wasting his time on alt.prophecies.nostradamus where his usual comment is simply 'Take the Meds kook'. Hayah.


 * Okay, we have a reference about open proxies. How about the "Sollog's presumed waking hours" bit?  Dbenbenn 01:42, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, my first (and probably last) visit to a sollogite site. Ah that inimitable prose style. . . . But wait -- isn't JPE supposed to be a web impresario or similar? The "source" reveals the hideous truth: he's using Turd as an HTML editor. Ugh! -- Hoary 11:54, 2005 Jan 14 (UTC)
 * I agree on removal; although it is likely that Sollog used/is using this tactic elsewhere, we cannot confirm it. Keeping this paragraph, we could also rename this article to WP vs. Sollog. - JohnyDog 11:32, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A question about IP addresses. http://www.247news.net/ says the following:

"Wikipedia has a policy of ‘Open Editing by ANYONE’ that is the problem. Some who have edited Wikipedia have had their IP Address put into pages and that is a no no, since a hacker could hurt you if he knows your IP address. Wikipedia’s answer is “well a user can ‘join’ wiki and hide their IP address”. So the owner of Wikipedia is making people join his site if they want to edit the pages, if you don’t ‘join’ then your private IP address info will be exposed."

Is the risk identified genuine and if so shouldn't you warn people? Hayah.


 * Nah, it's FUD. Your IP address is available 1) to all servers/routers your connection passes through or you're connecting to 2) to all admins of web pages you had visited. That's tons of people. Hacker can only 'hurt' you if you have unsecure system, and if you happen to, you've been probably hurt already anyway, as many worms are scanning aggresively through the whole IP space. - JohnyDog 15:15, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What is Independent? Government? Newspapers? er, no. So why not also quote 247news.net?

The Sun urged people to vote Blair...after Murdoch had had a meeting with Blair and won concessions....Hayah.
 * The above bits by Hayah. Inky 01:08, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * 247news.net is not a respected news source, or even a recognised one. We don't cite the National Inquirer, either. Beyond that, it's known to be written by Sollog and misrepresents itself as being specifically not written by Sollog, making it unreliable at absolute best. &mdash; Saxifrage | &#9742; 03:15, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, we wouldn't cite it as evidence in favor of Ennis. But is it fair to cite it as evidence against him?  Dbenbenn 03:27, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Right! Good point. We usually can rely on people to be truthful when the information is wholly to their disadvantage, yes. &mdash; Saxifrage | &#9742; 03:42, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * Even if we could take it as respected and reliable source, what exactly would you cite ? Literally every sentence in that article (including that about open proxies) sounds in favor of Sollog. - JohnyDog 11:32, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * "Sollog's alleged supporters often post via open proxy servers located in many different countries around the world." If I recall correctly, the 247news article supports this sentence.  Though I can't check it at work right now.  Dbenbenn 14:07, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is what you mean:

"Many people who have found fault with the concept of Wikipedia have been using open proxies to edit ‘protest’ pages into Wikipedia. Wiki editors consider such posting behind proxies to not be a valid post. So thousand of pages with edits from anonymous users are being deleted as soon as they appear, well it takes a few minutes to hours depending on what was edited by an anonymous user." Hayah.

http://www.247news.net/

Is there any truth in this:

"Since Wikipedia started attacking TOH and Sollog, there have been two court orders issued to Wikipedia to remove the offending pages. Wikipedia has refused to remove the slanderous pages and there is being formed a class action against Wikipedia on behalf of TOH members around the world."

http://www.247news.net/

Posted by Hayah.


 * No. Fire Star 16:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

But...it could be argued that ANYTHING with the word 'Sollog' in - however derisory - is to his advantages as it increases web presence.
 * That's why a few of us prefer to use his name, "Ennis." Fire Star 16:18, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. Don't think that this post isn't monitored by Sollog et alle, though. Never relax.Hayah.


 * Please sign all comments. Fire Star 17:49, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Interesting that if people are unhappy with what others say then they are urged to post on the User's Talk Page. Who posts on mine? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?Hayah.

???

I post on Ashley's pages but, in complete contradiction to the persona he tries to portray on his own page he simply deletes rather than engages in discussion. This seems to be the same approach you take with the Sollog(ites) i.e. delete rather than engage.Hayah.

Let me give an example. No-one seems to have followed up the fact (recorded in alt.prophecies.nostradamus) that someone in the Sollog camp sent out emails in the name of someone who criticised Sollog, and did so including porn. That person (i.e. the genuine person, not the sender) was then deluged with priests etc offering their help for his - supposedly - porn addiction.

His family were shocked, traumatised etc.

Is this the behaviour of a 'love is all' person 'above God?

I think not and yet where is the discussion on this?Hayah.
 * If you want to start a discussion, I suggest that 1) you remove the personal comments about Ashley Pomeroy above, and 2) you start a new section, with a constructive comment. See Saxifrage's comment at the top of this section.  Dbenbenn 14:07, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The comments about Ashley are not personal - I was using the 'unable-to-prove-his-existence' as a parallel to your lack of acceptance of some poor sap sitting in a pub giving you his exact location and phone number and still you wouldn't believe him!Hayah.

Ashley's probably a decent guy - even though he tries to trick Americans about Preston!Hayah.

For a discussion to happen the knee-jerk deletion policy of certain Wiki people has to change.

Contributed by Hayah.

Sollog - a new beginning
Hayah.

Before people read this they should be made aware that even several years ago people were cataloguing Sollog's identities:

Staff ASSI Staff Nostradamus Fan WHI staff WHI staff- Legal Department Sollog Immanuel Adonai Adoni What's Hot Staff Legal Department SIA JPE JGD Sollog Fan The Pope worships SATAN Nostradamus of the 90's Arbitrator e7x9@juno.comxx nospam@aol.com elNINelnine Editor "M.Nostradamus@juno.com" TLC@nmrk.net (T~EL~C) J Essene JESUS CHRIST legal@theeunderground.net sollogrules@theeunderground.net NG < ng@theeunderground.net> El Shadday < elshadday@juno.com> EOS < elhadid@juno.com> legal@theasi.net JP < jp@whatshotin.com> lotr9@juno.com lotr9@juno.com.x Admin < admin@theasi.net> lolita2002@hotmail.com eLnIn < NIN@hotmail.com> FOS67@mydejanews.com sollogfan@my-dejanews.com Andrew Baldo < ABALDO@prodigy.net> Gates is Satan < billy_gates666@hotmail.com> Ln1ne@hotmail.com Impeach Clinton < clintonsucks999@hotmail.com> FUT < fut999@hotmail.com> WARNING POSA < posa@hotmail.com> School Shootings < shootings@hotmail.com> SCHOOL SHOOTINGS < shootemdead@hotmail.com> CHS2 < tcmsp2@hotmail.com> SF < sf9999@hotmail.com> Sollog Rules < fuku2@hotmail.com> JAMES < bond@mi007.uk> FOS < fos@sollogrules.com> JFK Curse MN Fan mnfan@nostradamus.com> FAN FU HS PS BOO fos69@my-deja.com e1n1ne@hotmail.com SOLLOG RULES SF HOHO amin SOLLOG RULES < sollogrules@my-deja.com> FVCKYOU NINES < 9_9_9@my-deja.com> EL NUEVA < elnueva@my-deja.com> nospam@nospam.com (999) nospam@nospam.com (ALTERT) nospam@nospam.com (WARNING) nospam@nospam.com (COOL) nospam@nospam.com (FLASH) fvck@fvckyou.com (Fvck You) nospam@nospam.com (DETH) nospam@nospam.com (DT) Fvck You Too

Source: http://xinoehpoel.united.net.kg/xinoehpoel/sollog-news_disdaintv.htm

You may think Sollog's interest is temporary etc. You'd be wrong. Sollog's been 'doing his thing' for 7 years at least. In fact if you read his e-book where he talks about the point of creation, you'd realise that he's been 'like this' for many many years.

Contributed by Hayah.

I think people should discuss/be made aware of:

a. How Sollog(ites) faked emails in the names of his/their accusers and distributed porn everywhere causing great sadness and chaos to his detractorsHayah.


 * Do you have a verifiable source for that? --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I am not sure what a 'verifiable source' is but there are many.Warning much of the language you'll see (if you follow the links) is obscene. The type of fighting you have seen here on Wiki has been going on for '''eight years' on alt.prophecies.nostradamus.

If you have the energy these are some links worth investigating but you have to read the complete thread - take a post out of context and you'll draw incorrect conclusions.

Here we go:



and



but before anyone else spots it, to allow my post about Sollog(ites) posting porn by fake emails could be construed as libel - after all libel accusations have been made before:

"SOLLOG doesn't post here.To accuse him of posting porn is a LIBEL unless you can PROVE to a JUDGE he did. A bunch of nitwits have gotten themselves and their ISP's in trouble here. ISP's are to be considered PUBLISHERS of NEWS GROUPS if they allow someone with a history of defamatory posts to continue to post through their service, that is recent internet law as decided in Wisconsin, Sollog's case is the first internet case to use that decision to sue an ISP for allowing people like Newmill, Roncraft, etc et al, to post defamatory remarks about Sollog here. In LIBEL the person saying something has 100% burden of proving what they said is FACT! Can anyone prove here Sollog posted porn to this NG? Can anyone prove here Sollog posted to this NG? " 

So I am not setting out to trap you but...you could be walking into difficulties. Just bear that in mind...Hayah.

Plus remember how followers view Sollog:

"Sollog created this planet, dillweed. All laws are inferior to the LAW OF ONE."

Source: Hayah.

b. How Sollog(ites) caused people to be censored at work and/or lose their jobsHayah.


 * Source? --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

David Patrick of Reading University was frightened off by Sollog(ites). The initial thread is here:



Note how Sollogites urge people to telephone his employers....similar to urging people to phone Jim Wales.....

David Patrick posted this: "I don't think I've ever managed to touch off such a venom-filled post from Ennis, but even so I'm very glad that I'm at least two heavily guarded airports away from this freak."

Source:

He was forced out because of phonecalls from USA to his employers. He had to stop posting. Hayah.

c. You have already seen how Sollog(ites) tried to humiliate Jim Wales (and his wife and children) and yet you dismiss Sollog as a crank when in fact he is a malevolent evil (or a source of Good who is not to be trifled with - according to you POV)


 * And I'm still waiting to see an apology for that. If and when that happens, we can talk about this sad episode again. --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How did you get Mrs Wales' pic taken down from Wikipedia sucks?Hayah.


 * Please sign all comments. Fire Star 17:49, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

d. The Sollog translations of Nostradamus and the subsequent discussions with Ionescu


 * Source? --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This has already been given but here it is again:

http://www.nostradamus-icns.org/Vlaicu/sollog.html

I quote:"I fully respect Mr. Sollog for his talent in predicting and divination power, but I don’t understand his wish to be a Nostradamian exegete too. One must know his limitations and concentrate on the gift given him by God. A transgression of his own vocation could compromise him, or worse, he could fall under the Nostradamian curse of VI-100 quatrain (Qui aliter facit, is rite sacer esto!"). And it would be a pity. "Hayah.

e. The various formulae such as the 137, PDF, Creator Formula.Hayah.


 * The mathematical discoveries have been debunked already in the archives. I'm not sure a public airing of this is necessary, since they seem hardly notable. --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Have you covered all of them including Fermat's Theorem condensed to one page? the Planetary Distance Formula? Using ELS in the Torah etc?Hayah.

Please sign all comments. Fire Star 17:49, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't think:

a. anonymous posters should automatically be dismissed


 * Agree. Comments should be judged more or less in isolation to see if there was any substantial contribution. I don't quite see that yet in your posts. If you were to back up your claims with independent source (not just links to Sollog's site, we have plenty of those in the archive), you might get heard more easily. --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Anonymous posters should at least try to follow the discussion etiquette. Routinely not signing your posts so that people have to go to the history to see who they are dealing with is one trait which tends to show a certain lack of consideration, and therefore such posters aren't shown much consideration in return. Also, your singling out and focussing on someone whom Ennis singled out for a clumsy, previous spam attack doesn't do much for your credibility, either. Fire Star 16:53, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It makes no difference to me who I am dealing with. I look at the message, not the messenger. This is a point I tried to explain to Wyss who posts that qualifications make him listen, not necessarily the content. I beg to differ. It's what is posted that is important, not the identity of the poster.Hayah.

Your accusation I am singling out and focussing on someone again misses the point. Check my own Talk Page for a clear explanation - accepted by one of your colleagues.Hayah.

You sound irritable - suspend such an emotion. Hayah.

And...the 'clumsy spam attack' (I assume you mean Ashley?) well, as he doesn't post his email....Hayah.


 * But you have stated that you believe the message is more important than the messenger? Why then the obsession with Ashley? I'm sorry that you feel the need to project that people who question you are "irritable," but since you've opened the door to personal comments you seem to have an Ennis-like double standard when it comes to discussions with and consideration for your fellow editors, insisting upon respect while showing little but irritated condescension on your part. And again, please sign all comments. Fire Star 17:49, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry you think I am showing 'irritated condescension'. You infer incorrectly. Hayah.

Please curb your enthusiasm to constantly bracket anyone who is not anti-Sollog to either be Sollog or at least to have his characteristics. I have already used Ashley to demonstrate startling parallels between him and Sollog - not to say he is Sollog but to show that the reasoning employed here means he is...Hayah.

Again, I have explained until others must be tired of reading it (eg Mark) why I have been using Ashley as an example.Hayah.

I don't think I have ever linked to Sollog's site but I have given www.247news/net simply as a source of a quotation.Hayah.


 * Please sign all comments. Fire Star 18:06, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

b. Pages should be reverted without due consideration. If there is blasphemy, defamation, obscenities then yes, without reading but if the posts are politely aggressive then read first!


 * If an edit violates the rules, it will probably get reverted. Obscenities are right out, but so are many other things. --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

c. Posts in support of Earthquake divination should automatically have been revertedHayah.


 * There was ample discussion and a consensus that Sollog lacks the ability to predict earthquakes. But not only does that mean that it would be wrong to add passages to the article claiming that Sollog does have this ability, it's also wrong IMO to state that he specifically lacks it.  His general prediction patterns are already discussed in the article and backed up with enough examples. --MarkSweep 16:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A 'consensus'? From what I have read (and have experienced myself) any post even remotely not-anti-Sollog, gets reverted.Hayah.
 * Reverted by a consensus of our editors, look at the history. So far, pro-Ennis arguments, and Ennis' own behaviour, do not impress the majority of Wikipedian editors as having any encyclopaedic validity. Please sign all comments. Fire Star 17:49, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have read all the posts from people who say they're from the UK and many have been reverted, without, IMO, good reason.Hayah.

I have seen that the yahoo group's address was reverted several times, for example even though it is a UK address and would be used to counter the accusation that Sollog/Ennis has no 'fans'. Hayah.

In other words I think Sollog's actions should be fully aired - looking at the good (if there is any) the bad and the interesting. Contributed by Hayah.


 * The consensus here is that that has been done. Ennis has clearly shown himself to be a vicious, dishonest charlatan who makes up the rules as he goes along. So far, any "good" Ennis may have done in his weird little life has not been demonstrated to anyone but himself and his religion of one. Predictions that no one, not even he, can explain ahead of time so that people may benefit from them aren't really very useful for the common good. Fire Star 16:53, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Firestar: You've missed the entire point of Sollog's work. I can explain it - but I fear I'll immediately be portrayed as Sollog or a sockpuppet and reverted without due thought.Hayah.
 * I honestly don't think that I have, but thanks for your concern. Please sign all comments. Fire Star 17:49, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I am exercising my right to be known by a number. My identity, pseudonym or not, is totally unimportant. But henceforth I shall be known as Hayah. Hayah.
 * I wish you would reconsider. You should at least sign with your IP number. If you read the top of the page, by consensus your unsigned posts are going to make you appear disruptive to the other editors at large. Unsigned posts make it difficult to follow the thread of discussion. It is, by established Wikipedia policy, considered rude and even borderline vandalism by some administrators, as at the top of this page. You may certainly exercise your rights as you see them, but we can (and will) exercise our right therefore to disregard you, completely. Fire Star 18:39, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why not listen to Ennis: http://www.theeend.com?Hayah.

As Ashley says, 'God has the good things, Man' Contributed by Hayah.

Sollog Discussion Group in the UK
That's here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sollog/

brought to your attention by Hayah.

If you read the posts (the group is/was moderated) you'll see there at least was an 'attempt' at sensible discussion.Contributed by Hayah.
 * Fair enough, though irrelevent. Unless someone wishes to point out that it idicates support... (just responding to a question to save *anyone* asking it) I'd have to say it doesn't, with a reletivey small number of posts all more than 4 years ago, and there were only a small handful of posters. - Estel (talk) 18:45, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe but it's something that may be of interest to people afraid of the policies (perceived or otherwise) here. There have been two newcomers joining this week. ''Posted by Hayah - who has only contributed that. (Estel (talk) 19:25, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC))''
 * Do you count yourself as one of those newcomers? Or have you been quietly observing this page; as it seems a good 90% of all of the recent new Wikipedia users have been - heading straight for this article.
 * I'm not sure why thst group is so of interest, because there is little regarding Wikipedias policy there. Unless it is a reference for a serious debate, which I feel can also be seen here and Google groups. If you don't feel that the Wiki article is NPOV, then compare it to any other single source - nowhere will you find such an encyclopedic entry that looks at some of his claims, as well as things that people believe not to be so accurate. - Estel (talk) 19:25, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)

It's interesting to many because this site will eb a test case for a class action brought by Sollog. Hayah.


 * My mistake, Hayah is apparently a recently signed up User:217.43.103.220, who has been active as poster of most of the not mainstream posts, and also some discussion of user talk namespaces of Sollog editors at large. - Estel (talk) 19:44, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not yet convinced our new friend User:217.43.103.220/Hayah isn't our old friend Ennis trying yet another identity switch to disrupt this page. Comments? Fire Star 21:09, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Comment

I strenuously defended my right to stay anonymous. I kept on and on about not wanting a name. So I was then threatened with deletion/reversion.

So, against my better judgement I become Hayah.

What happens?

Yet again accused of being Sollog

No doubt some bright spark is going to realise that TOH is Temple of Hayah and therefore I am Sollog. In fact you would be better learning from this:

So it looks like despite me falling into the Wiki line it's going to be back to : "This is really a sockpuppet"

OK OK OK I'll revert back to Ashley IS Sollog - I'll play your game

(Sighs in exasperation)

Would it help if I told you what happened in EastEnders tonight? No...I don't suppose so after all I probably telephone people in England to tell me what is happening on television!

This is becoming increasingly pointless! Hayah


 * "This is becoming increasingly pointless!" I'll second that. I haven't accused you of anything, I said that I wasn't yet convinced. There is a difference. I'm not yet convinced that you are Ennis, either. I was merely wondering. There are similarities (eccentricity, touchiness; remember, you opened the door to personal comment) and obvious differences (some evidence of good manners) in your discursive style. If you paid more attention to what other people are actually saying here, it would help you build consensus to your point of view. Most people prefer being convinced to being lectured to, unilaterally assigning attitudes to your interlocutors isn't convincing. Fire Star 21:24, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

1. 'Unilaterally assigning' - oh, like to anyone and everyone from the UK who anonymises their posts. Ipso facto they are Sollog.

2. Similarities? A whole shed-load of similarities about Ashley/Sollog but they were dismissed.

3. Lectured to? 'If you don't get a name you'll be reverted!' yes......

Hayah


 * 1. You have unilaterally assigned motivations and attitudes to me, several times. I'm not talking about your signature here.


 * 2. Ennis has demonstrated strenuous homophobia, Ashley Pomeroy has not. That convinces me at least that they aren't the same person.


 * 3. I actually implied that if you didn't stop disrupting this page you would be reverted, and possibly blocked for a time. This isn't me talking, it is Wikipedia policy.


 * It says at the bottom of every Wikipedia page "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." There are no guarantees here, only the good will of one's fellow editors in the community peer review process preserves one's input. You can choose to make valid, respectful contributions or you can be labelled a troll and be at best ignored and at worst banned. It may seem hard to you, but that is the way it is. And I'm still not convinced that you aren't Ennis. Fire Star 21:48, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

May as well continue to beat you to it

Quoting Sollog: "You have been commanded to terminate all                          NUCLEAR DEVICES IMMEDIATELY!

These events must be to show that this command is to be OBEYED!

The HOLY ONE is HAYAH.

HAYAH is the eternal name given to Moishe on                          the mount with the tablets of stone with THE LAW!

The TEN COMMANDMENTS are the LAW.

I AM the LIVING WORD of HAYAH!"

 Hayah

As I have repeatedly said, look at what is written, not on what name the person chooses!

Hayah


 * Your filibuster is in aid of what, exactly? Fire Star 21:26, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually Sollog/Ennis' claims are original research and not encyclopedic (never mind they're based on ancient cold reading and post-shadowing techniques). His reputation as a prolific spammer and sockpuppet, however, may be. Wyss 19:50, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Sollog line
So far the only media links have been to ridicule Sollog.

This article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/massacre/Story/0,,204756,00.html at least mentions it without a value judgement. This was 5 years ago - funny how the line is still accurate.

Of course, some say it was stolen: http://dan_pressnell.tripod.com/tiggerlines.html Contributed by Hayah.

More on Sollog's Residence
He is in the Cayman Islands Hayah.
 * Above line moved out of the "summary" section as it has been requested not to post things there. Inky 20:11, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sollog is everywhere - especially if you're in the UK
If anyone - and I mean 'anyone' - posts here anonymously there will be pressure put on them to get an identity. If they don't comply they will be threatened with reversion/deletion and/or accused of being Sollog/a sockpuppet.

So they will either withdraw or comply and get a name.

When they get that they'll be accused of being in Florida posting through a proxy and...yes, of being Ennis. Any proof they offer - such as living in Salisbury and working at a hospital - will be dismissed as yet another 'Ennis Impersonation' Hayah

Revert
I don't know the protocol for talk pages, but could we just revert this mess back to the previous archive, at 20:50 yesterday? It's good that the cruft is kept to the talk page, but it seems that the 'discussion' today has achieved nothing, and indeed has been entirely content-free. Hayah (cough) isn't making any suggestions related to the article itself, and our replies are a waste of time; it's devolved into minor semantic points on minor semantic points, as if the Cold War was repeating itself, albeit on the talk page of a man who would clearly love to be the modern version of Emperor Joshua A. Norton. I assume Ennis' strategy, if there is one, is to gain some sort of notability on the talk page, and thenceforth use the sheen of legitimacy to justify vandalising the article. If we wind time back he'll no doubt moan about being censored, but I for one have no moral qualms in suppressing a 44-year-old ex-convict, one who has repeatedly threatened and belittled the owner of this website and his family. If 'Hayah' is not Ennis, then he or she has jumped into a big pot of hot water, and would be advised to jump back out again. -Ashley Pomeroy 21:50, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And just what has 'suppressing a 44 year old convict' got to do with reverting what I have written? Do you always try and mislead people? You're not anti-gay and that convinces someone you're not Sollog. I'm not anti-gay either but somehow consistency is suspended. Still if you think that by suppressing me you're somehow suppressing Ennis (when it is me who has done more to expose what he's been doing for 7-8 years than most) then that's fine - continue to make a fool of yourself - which of course is why you deleted me from your own pages! No wonder you're ex-Directory! [Hayah]


 * I second the motion to revert. There is some content worth preserving, though. This has to be done delicately. --MarkSweep 22:19, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If you follow 'are-puh's suggestion then my charge of 'Institutionalised Vandalism' sticks. I toed your policy, I gave sources, I stayed polite despite blatant provocation and still there is a 'suggestion' I am Sollog(ite) and a 'suggestion' my cause is not good. Beware the person who urges massive reversion instead of critical acumen - therein lies the descent into madness of a typist named 'are-puh'.

Still delete as you wish - Wiki is 'yours'.

Just before you do, i.e. before you 'fall' for what Ashley is proposing, let's consider (BTW this is Hayah reverted - it seems safer) what you miss:

a. Mark (who seconds the revert, conveniently forgetting the work I put in sourcing answers to his questions)asked for sources for the 'fake email/porn' and the 'job loss/threatened'. I gave them to him.

b. I gave references about Ionescu.

c. I reminded you - in case you'd forgotten - how Ennis has been 'attacking' people for 7-8 years so don't think he's gone away...

d. I gave i.e. sourced evidence as to how some 'fans' 'see' Sollog.

e. I gave 30+ aliases to support the 'multiple ids' claim.

But, like I said on my Talk Page, you seem to want to revert rather than genuinely accept contributions.

Yeah, paint this as a tirade if you wish; say I'm a sockpuppet if you must.....insist I am in USA...I wonder if I have missed the East Enders repeat on BBC 3...fancy Den sleeping with Zowie...and Mo fancying Alfie!

Yep...it's Two Pints of Lager now...

  'The Number'   

Let's just keep all of it here and move on to more productive discussions. It will all disappear into the archive soon enough. Gamaliel 23:16, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On the Internet, nobody knows you're a god
Folks, let's wrap up this debate for good. It doesn't matter who Hayah is or where (s)he is. There is no need to prove or disprove various identity-related charges. The only question is whether Hayah can contribute here in a constructive manner and in accordance with the rules. Let's assume good faith as usual and focus on the positive. --MarkSweep 21:58, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, Ennis responds to charges of sockpuppetry by accusing others of being sockpuppets. IMHO these identity rants are drivel, since user histories do establish strong WP identities, and anon WP posters are, statistically speaking, likely to be (but aren't by any means always) vandals, socks, or trolls. Wyss 23:16, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with all of what Wyss has written except I am not sure who Ennis is accusing here of being a sockpuppet therefore I infer (perhaps wrongly) that Wyss thinks I am Sollog(ite)/Ennis/John/JP etc etc.

I hold out hope for the caveat of (but aren't by any means always).

the number
 * Well, number old man, for us to assume good faith means you aren't accused, as I said before. You said that you were accused when honest suspicions were expressed. You are watched, however. The consensus seems to be that you may or indeed may not be Ennis, and that your behaviour will eventually indicate that one way or another. Anonymous IPs in this debate are usually sockpuppets, but Ennis has also registered many sockpuppet accounts as well. If Ennis himself (in an actinic mood, no doubt) were to come here, apologize for his behaviour and edit civilly, he would be as welcome as you are for my part, as I have consistently been willing to meet you halfway. Fire Star 23:53, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is something I just cannot understand. You seem convinced that the probability is high that Ennis/Sollog/JP/etc etc is in USA.

I tend to agree.

So just what am I supposed to do to prove I am in the UK?

Stand outside Ashley's house and shout at him (always assuming he does indeed live in Salisbury...I do have my doubts)

Mark says it doesn't matter where I (or anyone else)is. But it does once you accept that Ennis is not in the UK!!!(Surely if he were then Channel 5 would have snapped him up by now or he'd be on a Chris Evans radio show?)

And the same applies for the other people posting in/from the UK - whereever they are. I have counted at least three on these pages. It's this 'Wikipidean mindset' that only 'sollogites' post on these pages...unless they're anti-Sollog. I don't know if individual pages have hits but if so I bet the hits for this page are high compared to what factual content is actually here.

Also, if I was Ennis/acolytes of... then I would enrol here in some nondescript, innocent name and slowly but surely would subvert the site. And, if I was planning long term I'd befriend Wikis here and eventually get their trust (and their email addresses) and then...............

As it is, I posted here in good faith and urged people to look at what I write rather than meandering about who I am etc. Why don't you go and look at my Talk Page (for 'the number' not Hayah) - I have posted on Wyss's, Ashley's and Mark's (I think) - helpful soul that I am.... Anyway, here's to Tottenham winning tomorrow!


 * Ennis, you're throwing in way too much easily gleaned Brit cruft, your syntax and spelling are American and Ennis-like, though calmer, and you can't seem to avoid confrontational, negative and threatening thoughts, can you? One more thought... (responding to a message you left on my talk page after you said you'd already done so here), I've never reverted any of your posts when you've appeared as the above sockpuppet. I guess you're thinking of reverts I've done on some of your other, more vandalistic socks, huh? ;) Wyss 00:41, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Funny, funny. I don't know who is trying to trick whom. First Ashley tries to convince people there is no internet in Preston. Then you try to convince people I spell the American way.

Oh dear, oh dear.

OK here's 'almost' proof BUT I accept I could have telephoned someone and found this out. However, I have in front of me the Monday issue of the Daily Mail (a UK paper. There is a website www.dailymail.co.uk)

On page 2 there is an article by a journalist in Ramallah. The article is in three columns. In the middle column the middle paragraph begins with: "Two exit polls..."

Now, this is not on the Internet. So either you really do think I telephone people in the UK to find this out (it's 12.47am here now BTW) or you finally control your prejudices and believe I am in the UK.

Oh yes, on page 10 top left is an advertisement for Car Insurance. (Again, not on the net)

You do realise how your stance weakens the credibility plus the Sollog(ites) must be laughing their heads off at you!

Oh yes I suppose the absence of American spellings is 'proof' I am deliberately writing to sound English?

What a joke!

The Number

Must we continue this argument until the end of time? It doesn't matter who is where. Everyone let this silly matter drop please. And 217.43.103.220, please start signing your posts in the proper manner. Gamaliel 00:58, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed not. As the page is longer than 32 Kb, I am going to archive it now.  dbenbenn | talk 01:01, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)