User talk:Sprallen

Luther
Hi Sprallen. Welcome to Wikipedia. Re your edit to Christian mortalism: "While not a direct quote, Ellingsen's comment is a paraphrase of the material in the American Edition of LW vol. 4, p. 313" Sorry to ask, but are you sure of this? I don't have the English translation to hand but it would be very surprising for the American edition to make such a mistake? Does the American Edition really say what Mark Ellingsen reads; in the sleep of death the soul experiences visions and the discourses of God? In Latin and German it is in the sleep of life. Who is the translator of this section? Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 01:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I had the American edition in hand when I edited the comment, but I am not in my office right now. I will be there tomorrow and check to see if it uses "'of death'" or "'of life.'" I should be able to check this in the morning.
 * Many thanks. Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 02:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The translator of the Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 21-25 (St. Louis: Concordia, 1964) is George V. Schick. The text reads: "Nevertheless, there is a difference between the sleep or rest of this life and that of the future life. For toward night a person who has become exhausted by his daily labor in this life enters into his chamber in peace, as it were, to sleep there; and during this night he enjoys rest and has no knowledge whatever of any evil caused either by fire or by murder. But the soul does not sleep in the same manner. It is awake. It experiences visions and the discourses of the angels and of God. Therefore the sleep in the future life is deeper than it is in this life. Nevertheless, the soul lives before God."


 * It seems to me that it is possible to interpret the "sleep of this life" to refers to everyday human sleep and the "sleep of the future life" to refers to the sleep of the soul after death where the soul experiences visions and discourses and is awake, as Ellingsen does. If that were the interpretation, Luther's logic would be dubious. How can the soul be asleep and awake at the same time? While it is true that Luther had no problem being paradoxical and reveling in it, another interpretation of the material seems preferable. When Luther says, "The soul does not sleep in the same manner" it is important to understand what soul he is talking about, what sleep he is refereing to, and what he means by "the same manner." In this statement, the soul is that of the person living in this life. When a person is asleep, the soul does not sleep in the same manner as the as the mind which has "no knowledge whatever of any evil..." The soul of a person who is at "sleep in this life" "is awake. It [the soul of the sleeping person] experiences visions and the discourses of the angels and of God." Luther's next word, "therefore," refers to the contrast between the sleep of this life and the sleep of the future. Having described the sleep of this life he now changes gears to speak of the "sleep in the future life" which he says is "deeper than it is in this life." This suggests that the sleep of the future life is without experiences of "visions and the discourses of the angels and of God." This would be consistant with the statement in the next paragraph--"Thus after death the soul enters its chamber and is at peace; and while it sleeps, it is not aware of its sleep."


 * Thus your point is correct that Ellingsen interprets this passage to suggest that in the "sleep of death" there are visions and discourses with angels and God. It appears from my discussion above that Ellingsen is mistaken in this interpretation. How to reflect this in footnotes 68 and 72 can be an issue for future discussion.
 * Thanks. Surprising, but evidently so. Schick died in 1915. I presume he translated direct from Latin, not a German translation. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Correcting myself: George Schick senior died in 1915, George V. Schick died in 1964, so it is a more modern translation. I do believe that Gottfried Fritschel (1867) is correct to take "anima autem" as a comparison with the conscious mind of the farm labourer who "knows nothing .. but of fire or murder" "sive incendii sive caedis" since otherwise the farm labourer is not even allowed dreams in his sleep, not allowed "visions and the discourses of the angels and of God." Will update the footnotes.In ictu oculi (talk) 02:53, 8 January 2011 (UTC)