User talk:Sr 76

Welcome!
Hello, Sr 76, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially what you did for World Council of Arameans (Syriacs). I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome!  R a f y  talk 17:46, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
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November 2014
Hello, I'm Kkj11210. I noticed that you recently removed some content from Chaldean people without explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; I restored the removed content. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks!  KJ  Discuss? 22:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi, I made the change because to my surprise that page Chaldean People had no applied. As apposed to other pages such as Syriac People, Aramean People that all redirect to page Assyrian People.Sr 76 (talk) 23:19, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you trying to ask for edit protection on the redirect page? Or are you trying to delete it?  KJ  Discuss? 01:38, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm saying the edit protection needs to be removed. The forced redirection from the Syriac/Aramean/Chaldean people and the deletion of that content is extremely unethical. Sr 76 (talk) 02:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Sock puppetry
Hello. Are you aware of our policy on sock puppetry? Would you like to admit creating several accounts? If so, perhaps we can sort this out quickly. Otherwise I suspect you will find your account blocked shortly. Regards &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:02, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for sockpuppetry

 * I believe this request has merit. I'll write my comments shortly and discuss with the blocking administrator. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:23, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I haven't had time and I won't have until tomorrow. So if another administrator could review this, it's fine. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 23:03, 28 November 2014 (UTC)


 * That's fine, thankyou for your timeSr 76 (talk) 06:43, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay. I see that no one else has responded yet. I think we are making some progress here, but there are still some issues to explore. The following accounts were found to have similar editing habits and geographical location:


 * In your unblock request, you state that you know two of these editors in real-life. Which two editors are these? Without disclosing their identities, can you explain how you know them? How did you make them aware of the discussion on Talk:Syriac people? What about the other people in that list? How did they become aware of the request? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In your unblock request, you state that you know two of these editors in real-life. Which two editors are these? Without disclosing their identities, can you explain how you know them? How did you make them aware of the discussion on Talk:Syriac people? What about the other people in that list? How did they become aware of the request? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In your unblock request, you state that you know two of these editors in real-life. Which two editors are these? Without disclosing their identities, can you explain how you know them? How did you make them aware of the discussion on Talk:Syriac people? What about the other people in that list? How did they become aware of the request? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In your unblock request, you state that you know two of these editors in real-life. Which two editors are these? Without disclosing their identities, can you explain how you know them? How did you make them aware of the discussion on Talk:Syriac people? What about the other people in that list? How did they become aware of the request? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In your unblock request, you state that you know two of these editors in real-life. Which two editors are these? Without disclosing their identities, can you explain how you know them? How did you make them aware of the discussion on Talk:Syriac people? What about the other people in that list? How did they become aware of the request? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * In your unblock request, you state that you know two of these editors in real-life. Which two editors are these? Without disclosing their identities, can you explain how you know them? How did you make them aware of the discussion on Talk:Syriac people? What about the other people in that list? How did they become aware of the request? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


 * No problem it's understandable. I simply don't know who is whom. I mentioned it to 2 friends over coffee, they must have done the same. The page Talk:Syriac people was mentioned because he didn't understand how i could debate people on Wikipedia.Sr 76 (talk) 16:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Although you claimed you did not "recruit" them to the discussion, do you appreciate that this is exactly the effect it had? How will you avoid falling foul of the policy on WP:SOCK policy in future (including the WP:MEAT section therein)? What would have been a better course of action to attract the attention of editors to the discussion on Talk:Syriac people? I'm thinking we could unblock (per WP:AGF). The other editors will remain blocked and can make their own requests if they wish. Although we have no way of verifying the information you have presented, the scenario would seem to match the technical evidence that the checkuser presented. Are the other admins okay with this approach? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:39, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm slightly doubtful about the "I just mentioned it offhand and they all independently created accounts" response, however if you are willing to extend some rope then I certainly won't object as long as Sr 76 adheres strictly to a single account, avoids any canvassing, and thoroughly reviews our NPOV policy prior to editing should an unblock be granted. I'm worried by the (mis)use of "vandalize" in relation to another editor with an opposing view in the unblock request. I understand it's a volatile topic, however Sr 76 will need to keep their personal feelings in check if they want to avoid any potential edit-warring or cvility concerns (again, should they be unblocked).-- Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 19:07, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with all your points Ponyo (by the way, nice to meet you - I don't think we've interacted before). I myself was extremely doubtful, but at the end of the day it probably doesn't matter, if the user has learned the lesson. I conclude that this block is not preventing any disruption anymore, and will unblock shortly. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I do realize that is what happened, although it wasn't my intention. I simply complained to a couple of friends. The outcome simply highlights how provocative this is for some people. Ok that sounds reasonable.Sr 76 (talk) 02:36, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Unblocking now ... please do take all points on board and be especially careful to remain calm in what is clearly an emotional topic area for you. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your time, I will take every thing on board. It's not really emotional for me, I'm just trying to be fair.Sr 76 (talk) 20:46, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Propaganda platform Wikipedia
They want to keep Syriac people as a redirect to the Assyrian people article! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2014_December_19 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suryoyo124 (talk • contribs) 15:12, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

December 2014
You have been blocked from editing for a period of 2 weeks for disruptive editing (see warnings at Talk:Assyrian people). Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the following text below this notice:. However, you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:18, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

This account was previously indeffed for sock puppetry, and unblocked in good faith after discussion and denials. I'm reinstating the indef block after obvious abusive IP socking (see for example the history of this page) during User:Future Perfect at Sunrise's block. You know how to request unblock, if you think anybody will fall for it a second time. Bishonen &#124; talk 12:53, 31 December 2014 (UTC).


 * Sorry, I think I was deceived by the wheels within wheels there; Fut Perf has explained that I made a mistake. I've reset the block to two weeks. Bishonen &#124; talk 13:32, 31 December 2014 (UTC).

Sorry the link was wrong, use this one: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Xa1zdxyfxLYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=introduction+to+syriac+studies&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t7akVLjiCqS7mAXbxoDYDA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=CONJECTURE&f=false And the second paragraph on page 68 You have this all wrong. Sr 76 (talk) 03:32, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * You are missing the point. Read again the principles outlined at Talk:Assyrian people, and then consider which of those rules you violated. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I did not make any edits to the Assyrian People page.
 * The only edit i made after the 29th of December was to the Syriac People Talk Page to answer AnyHaylos about "Saggs taken out of context". which complies with what you wrote anyway:
 * "The only thing everybody is expected to use the talkpage for is to discuss how this group and its history are described in high-quality, neutral reliable sources, and how the article should be changed so that it reflects those sources." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_people#Saggs_taken_out_of_context
 * Sr 76 (talk) 11:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Don't hide behind formalities. It should have been clear to you that what is disruptive on the Assyrians talkpage is equally disruptive on the Syriacs talkpage, which is about the same topic, so why argue about what page you were on? As for the content of your edit, no, you were not talking about how to correctly reflect the literature; you were arguing about what you personally think is the WP:TRUTH about the matter, and why what somebody else thought was the truth was wrong. If you genuinely can't understand the difference between doing that and doing what you ought to be doing on a Wikipedia talkpage, it will be better to keep you blocked until such time as you have understood it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:25, 1 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Im not trying to be a wise-guy. I do want to follow policies, conduct codes and rules. I was the one that warned about that kind of discussion about this topic on the Wiki Page in the first place, and yet it is me that is accused of "creating a disturbance" and "turning Wikipedia into a battle field".
 * The truth is now that I have been block for last edit I am struggling to understand what an appropriate edit is. Reading the following only made it worse......
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability,_not_truth#.22If_it.27s_written_in_a_book.2C_it_must_be_true.21.22
 * The Saggs reference that I was writing about is a great example of "cherry picking", so I should not have identified it?
 * There has been plenty of talk by admin about the problems Assyrian People page, and how it needs to be cleaned up. The page is littered with of these references that have been cherry picked and if you block the people that point that out you will not be able to clean up the page.
 * Sr 76 (talk) 06:23, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I think i will just wait out the 2 weeks until the block expires and then come back to see if i can assist in cleaning up the page.Sr 76 (talk) 06:26, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

On a different and more important note when this issue is going to be dealt with? Assyrians have clearly colluded consistently from October 2006 to December 2010, please see the link provided. The dates are no coincidence either, with the voting on Wikipedia in November 2008 to remove the "Syriac People" page. http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=16628.95;wap2 http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=16628.100;wap2 Voting on Wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Aramean-Syriac_people This has been done with the clear intention of violating the Canvassing rules, clearly vote-stacking and Stealth Canvassing. This is the current state of Wikipeadia (Syriac People page redirecting to Assyrian People page), and this is why the content of the Assyrian People page is the way that it is Sr 76 (talk) 06:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Also there is an issue with Fairness: When Suryoyo124 used the term "Assyrian Facists" (referring to SOME Assyrian editors) - he was blocked for 2 weeks When AynHaylo wrote "You Oromoye [Arameans] nationalists are ALL brainwashed" (referring to ALL Arameans around the world, making it a racist slur) - nothing was done about it I am more than happy to follow the rules, but the rules have to be clear and applied fairly to everyoneSr 76 (talk) 06:45, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * It's getting to the stage where I'm considering revoking talk page access for the remainder of your block. Talk page access is given so that you can make an unblock request, not so you can continually ping the blocking and reviewing admin to persuade them to change their minds. PhilKnight (talk) 10:39, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Michael The Syrian quoting Joseaphus Page 748.jpg
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Comment
"THIS IS AMAZING. It was you and your fellow Assyrians that were quoting Brock, saying he wrote that the term Aramean really meant Aramean speaker. As soon as I suggested that you were misquoting Brock (i didn't even bother to present the quote), you turn on Brock and start questioning his credentials......?????....seriously"

There is no reason for you to lie like that. You're just being childish. Please provide a diff where I quoted Brock. My "fellow Assyrians" are not me. Shmayo (talk) 22:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

You only started criticizing Brock when I told you he was misquoted.Sr 76 (talk) 03:44, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Why?
why did you block me? i was the only one making legitimate edits to the page, the others were just undoing my edits.


 * You were clearly edit-warring, just like they were, and at least some parts of your edits (such as replacing the past tense with the present tense in the defining sentence of Arameans) were certainly contentious and would have required legitimate discussion and consensus first. You have also been personally attacking other editors.


 * By the way, please learn to sign your posts. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I had written-up the discussion on the talk page, but was unable to submit it because I was blocked.....Personally attacking?Sr 76 (talk) 16:31, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Then perhaps you can apply the same rules to the "Aramean People" article, that you applied to the "Assyrian People" page. Because it's obvious that blocking people doesn't resolve the issue, because someone else just takes over and does it.Sr 76 (talk) 01:15, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

thanks for the edits on Micheal the Syrian talk page, just one mistake. Regarding the page numbers and volumes. 1) he commissioned the monks to hand write a transcript of the original Edassean manuscript in 1899 (if i remember correctly), obviously in Syriac. 2) he then took that hand-written Syriac transcript back to France and translated it to French.

He publish the Syriac in one volume. And then he published his French translation in 3 volumes. You could not find pages 748 and 750 because you must have been looking at the French. That photograph i posted on the Assyrian People talk page of the Syriac text is from page 748. Sr 76 (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Also since you are looking at the French the big-bold numbers in the square brackets throughout some of the pages refers to the corresponding page in his Syriac publication.Sr 76 (talk) 13:54, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Blocked again
Sigh. I find your behaviour on Talk:Assyrian people again veering off into a lengthy debate trying to argue for the correctness of your own ideological positions regarding Assyrian/Syriac etc identities, rather than focussing on improving specific issues in the article. You know perfectly well this is not what Wikipedia is for. If it's the only thing you are interested in doing on Wikipedia, you may need to consider whether this place is right for you. For now, I've had no choice but to block you, again, this time for 2 months. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:42, 16 April 2015 (UTC) What are you talking about ????

I think you have misunderstood the Section, and what I was doing.

FIRSTLY: "focussing on improving specific issues", unlike other topics that I have provided sources for, This one is different. The other were just brief mentions in particular sections from the page. However this is INHERENT THROUGHOUT the page. This is what I have been telling you this for months.

Look at the section titled Self-designation: "At the same time historians, geographers and philosophers like Herodotos, Strabo, and Justinus mention that Assyrians were afterwards called Syrians.". My sources dealt with the Herodotos, Strabo. Justinus....I'm not sure what they are talking about.

In the history section, seems like it is now removed, the mention that Syriac is synonymous with Arameans, the region of Syria only. No mention of Mesopotamia, no mention of the change of usage of the word Syrian, no mention that Syriac was and ethnic synonym with Aramean, but just geographical.

In the references there is just Richard Frye's "Assyria and Syria: Synonyms", while the rest of the academic opinion is ignored. MOST IMPORTANTLY if you look back at the section "Origin's of today's Assyrian Identity" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_people/Archive_14

Where do you think these academic come up with their description of the claims of modern-Assyrian ethnicity, describing them as "hogwash" and "bogus ethnology"..etc..? It always comes down to the Synonymity of the word Syrian with Aramean. The Assyrian People page completely misrepresented it.

My own "ideological position"?? nothing i wrote had anything to do with my own ideological position, it was directly related to the sources i posted. It is not my fault that the Assyrians are so far off the mark with there claims, that when providing sources it looks like i am describing my own ideology.

The Assyrians even have a page titled "Assyrian continuity" full of complete nonsense, and you are accusing me of promoting my own "ideological position" ??? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_continuity

You know that if i don't explain the sources that i posted, every Assyrian will be there posting the most ridiculous unrelated information that they can get their hands on, to try to void the sources i use. e.g. The Caramalites...Sr 76 (talk) 07:57, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

have you read the actual section yet? or do i need to spend my time writing up a unblock request?Sr 76 (talk) 10:56, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Maybe this needs to be reviewed by someone familiar with the issues on the page.Sr 76 (talk) 05:25, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Can I get an explanation especially since the period is so excessive? If the TOPIC is not ideological and everything I wrote about is an explanation of the sources, so where exactly is the problem? I have just been blocked for 2 months for doing the same thing I have been doing for the last 5 months.Sr 76 (talk) 09:24, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

you asked me to address the use of talk pages for arguing for my own views in an unblock request, and I have. Now my unblock request is sitting here not being acknowledged? @Shmayo participated in the same discussion, and he was not blocked.Sr 76 (talk) 04:52, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

@Sr 76 They probably haven't read the sources or the section at the Talk page in general, otherwise they would have seen that none of the sources you posted were your own views. In the last few weeks, the "Assyrian people" article has been edited in favor of Assyrianism again and neither Future Perfect at Sunrise nor the other admins have done anything against it! --Suryoyo124 (talk) 10:49, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

as a result of what you have just explained I have been blocked for a ridiculous period of 2 months. Where as @Shmayo wasn't blocked at all. They are not even acknowledging the review of my block. I guess the issue of Synonymity was too close to home for some of the wiki-Admin, @Fut.Perf finally realized how wrong he had it. After all, it was @Fut.Perf that created this mess in the first place.

i have pinged because he has shown an interest in this topic

And no this is not a witch-hunt, but more your chance to provide an actual working solution to the problem that you help create on Wikipedia based on incorrect information given to you, rather simply blocking people, that is clearly not working to resolve the issue.

This 2 month block period gave me the change to go through @Fut.Perf contribution log - 1) this is the original change request that lead to the Syriac People page being removed by @Fut.Perf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_people/Archive_9#Requested_move

2) Notice the change request did not involve having the Syriac People page removed

3) Notice the change request was collecting votes of support ON THE BASIS THAT THE SYRIAC PEOPLE AND CHALDEAN PEOPLE PAGES "ALREADY EXSIST"

4) Then @Fut.Perf just went and redirected the Syriac People page 11:37, 15 April 2009 (diff | hist) . . (0)? . . m Syriac people ? (Protected Syriac people: permanent POV-fork magnet ([edit=sysop] (indefinite) [move=sysop] (indefinite))) 11:41, 15 April 2009 (diff | hist) . . (0)? . . m Syriac Christians ? (Protected Syriac Christians: POV-fork magnet ([edit=sysop] (indefinite) [move=sysop] (indefinite))) NO ONE VOTED TO HAVE THE SYRIAC PEOPLE PAGE REMOVED, @Fut.Perf JUST HAD IT REDIRECTED TO THE ASSYRIAN PEOPLE PAGE ANYWAY

5) In 2014, This is the consensus i tried to create and vote to have the Syriac People page recreated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Syriac_people#Protected_edit_request_on_11_November_2014 6) And this was @Fut.Perf's response...."Just nuke everything and indef any account engaging in these shenanigans on sight" https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise&oldid=638748181#Syriac_people @Fut.Perf can you explain what "indef any account" means? "Just nuke everything" why would you take such a hard-line position on a topic you know little about? Why would I follow the advice of other Wiki-admin and spend months collecting consensus for you to just step in with "Just nuke everything" ? I'll write it again @Fut.Perf this is not a witch-hunt, but more your chance to provide an actual working solution to the problem that you help create on Wikipedia.

A problem that no doubt you have notice will simply not go away. In trying to fix this, you made a unilateral decision to try and remove the POV and content fork. But instead maintained the Assyria People page that is nothing but POV and removed the Syriac People page that was the real academic consensus. @Fut.Perf the following link is response you wrote to a great comment by JeanVinelorde in 2009 about edit warring on this topic, and the edit warring is continuing still. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=283985387

You can keep this long running battle going because a group of Assyrians colluded in violation of Wikipedia's policies to promote their political ideals and POV. A POV that has no proper academic backing or you can work to have a simple resolution that works for everyone. A solution that is not offensive and insulting like the one that currently sits on the Wikipedia http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=16628.100;wap2 "F@#king Arameans damm them all to hell." this is the supposed non-POV side of the equation that you decided to go with?

Sr 76 (talk) 05:14, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Random Break
We were asked to provide sources for the page, on the basis that the references currently used on the page were "abysmal" (I'm quoting). So now the number of sources I have provided is a problem? because it looks like a wall of text (no admin has mentioned this before)? It's not about me being right. Everyone that has looked at the page, is critical of it. Nothing if any of the page is made up of neutral/reliable academic sources.

I have already explained my willingness to provide only sources, like i have in the past, without notes and without explanation.

So when I ask a question of how I should handle this, it really is a legitimate question, to help me understand how to deal with the existing situation and help me understand my behavior that the admin are all to ready to point out.

I'm clearly going to the effort to help improve the page. When we have admin that seems like they are new to the issue, trying to come up with new ways of questioning "my behavior"  it comes across as childish and disrespectful. Sr 76 (talk) 17:57, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

You have asked to make it clear of that I am willing alter my editing habits, I think I have done that, above.

help with sources

 * -Assyrian
 * - Syriac
 * - Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans


 * Google book tool Converts bare url into cite book format
 * --Moxy (talk) 06:47, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * This search of Assyrian does not differencate between the ancient Assyrians and the modern Assyrians, and Assyrian can be a reference to an EmpireSr 76 (talk) 07:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * This search of Assyrian does not differencate between the ancient Assyrians and the modern Assyrians, and Assyrian can be a reference to an EmpireSr 76 (talk) 07:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The fact that you ran the search in that way means you are not clear on the situation. It is quite complicated. Please read the proposal it makes it a little bit clearer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Assyrian_people#Edit_Request_on_25_June_2015 Sr 76 (talk) 07:25, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You are free to use any search parameters you like.see Find sources-- Moxy (talk) 21:03, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I realize you are free to search for what ever you like. And when the pages are structured to refer to the ancient peoples...and the Assyrian People page encapsulates the modern Assyrians,the modern Arameans, and the modern Chaldeans. search results like the ones above are not reflective of the issue since the issue is pertaining to the Assyrian people page.

Sr 76 (talk) 03:24, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Assyrian people article
Fut.Perf. has closed the request move and the result is "Not moved". "The main proponent (Sr 76) has brought forward numerous citations, but they all appear to be geared towards debating the tired old ideological issue of the factual correctness of Assyrian "continuity", rather than present-day naming practices." I disagree with him on that nonsense claim. You have provided plenty of academic sources in English about the common appellation regarding the Christian period of Syriac Christians (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Maronites etc.), which is undeniable Syriacs or Syriac people. Fut.Perf. should give sources that the appellation "Assyrians" for the Christian period is the common appellation in "present-day naming practices" in English. Then you gave sources about the usage of the appellation Suryoye/Suraye or Syriacs for both Assyrians and Arameans, which forms the common appellation for them and none of them can reject this appellation. Moreover, you provided reliable sources about the disputed appellation Assyrians for Syriac Christians, and which problems occur by using this appellation for people like Ephrem the Syrian.--Suryoyo124 (talk) 12:41, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to lodge a complaint with admin Fut.Perf. on English Wikipedia? Fut.Perf. cannot be the only admin on Wikipedia, and the best would be to point out his misadministration on this topic and which effects this has on credibility of Wikipedia. I haven't seen any other admins on this topic, except only for Fut.Perf.. This is exactly what I have criticized before you submit your request for the move of the title. I was even more appalled, when I knew that he is more than six years involved into this topic. Do you remember the discussion back in December 2014 and how biased the "Assyrian people" article was with all the Assyrian POV propaganda? Where was Fut.Perf. and why didn't he do anything against it? He has blocked everyone, who have pointed out this issue and opened Pandora's box. I'm not sure, if he is aware of that. It seems like that he does not even want to answer your question regarding Disambiguation. --Suryoyo124 (talk) 13:22, 12 July 2015 (UTC)


 * There is the possibility to lodge a complaint with a Wikipedia administrator on German Wikipedia. The red bordered box says in English: "Please note: On this page only complaints about administrators are treated, who have misused or incorrectly used or threatened other users with the misuse of their extended rights."

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administratoren/Probleme --Suryoyo124 (talk) 14:16, 12 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I found this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_de-adminship--Suryoyo124 (talk) 14:23, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

We'll take the issue to dispute resolution.Sr 76 (talk) 16:59, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

For some reason he went and locked the Assyrian Continuity page, like that is the fountain of knowledge, that needed to be preserved. I couldn't even notice anything that would warrant the page being locked.Sr 76 (talk) 17:26, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I think another administrator should ckeck Fut.Perf., because this is getting suspicious in my opinion. First he eliminate the Syriac people article and everything else from Wikipedia and gave the way free for obvious POV editing, e.g. Assyrian Continuity. Now he is protecting a POV article for one year without a valid reason? I wouldn't do any further edits and wait what other administrators have to say about Fut.Perf..--Suryoyo124 (talk) 17:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I have placed the Move request to be reviewed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Move_review#Assyrian_people Sr 76 (talk) 11:13, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Be careful
"And if I see any more of this kind of revert-warring on this page, I'll hand out blocks starting from two months in duration. Final warning." Isn't that a clear sign of misuse by threating other users with his extended rights? I wouldn't start a discussion with him with the risk to be blocked again. --Suryoyo124 (talk) 16:33, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Separate articles for Arameans and Assyrians
Hi Sr 76,

I think (as a result of what I read in the discussion there is no way for simple umbrella term for the Syriac Christions within the Mideast without nationalistic views, that is why on second thought I did not vote, because either way would favor Assyrian or Aramean views and it will not be a simple neutral term) that the only way to stop the Assyrian nationalist views (or the Aramean nationalist views) is to have TWO separate articles for 1) Arameans and 2) Assyrians (as they already have) but the Assyrian people's page has to be completely cleaned from any connections with the Arameans (or Ancient Aramea), the people West of Euphratus. And the redirect Arameans in Syria has to be developed fully in order to balance the article about Assyrians in Syria because currently there is no mention of any Arameans living in Syria. And this one needs redevelopment WikiProject Aramea.


 * I think that's the only solution:
 * TWO separate articles for 1) Arameans and 2) Assyrians.


 * What is your opinion about that?

MaronitePride (talk) 18:12, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "Assyrian people's page has to be completely cleaned from any connections with the Arameans (or Ancient Aramea), the people West of Euphratus" Seriously, MaronitePride? You don't seem to be familiar with this issue. What you suggest is exactly what Assyrian propaganda intends, namely to deny the ethnic connection between Syriac Christians from Mesopotamia with the Arameans. "the people West of Euphratus" I'm not sure what makes you think that Arameans are only limited to the West of Euphratus. English people are only limited to the British Isles and have never migrated outside of this place and by doing this spread their language around the world? Aramean kingdoms like Bit Zamani or Bit-Bahiani, which were located in the East of Euphratus, the deportation of hundreds of thousand Arameans within the heartland of the Assyrian empire and the battles between Assyrians and Arameans in Mesopotamia don't show any physical presence of Aramean people? I've read this wrong Information several times on Wikipedia. Seems like that Assyrian POV has worked just fine for people like you, MaronitePride. One of our ancestors like Mar Jacob of Edessa, who died in 708 A.D., said:"Ho hokuth hnan Oromoye awkith Suryoye", which means "It in the same way also we the Arameans, that is to say the Syrians". (Jacques des Edesse, Scolie, dans Patrologie Orientalis.T.29,1960 P.196) These are the own words of one of our ancestors more than 1,000 years ago regarding our ethnicity. However, there is an ethnicity conflict among us Mesopotamian Syriac Christian, where some say they are the descendants of the ancient Assyrians and the others say they are the descendants of the Arameans. The only term that unites us is in fact Syriac or Suryoye/Suraye, because this is the term we all used before nationalism started and it describes our Syriac Christian heritage.  --Suryoyo124 (talk) 22:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


 * "You don't seem to be familiar with this issue." As a Lebanese Maronite that is normal not to be fully familiar with the issue at stake. Most of Lebanese Maronites are not at all knowledgeable or interested in the issue, I am actually an exception to have interest in the Aramean/Assyrian issues ;) but I acquired some knowledge mostly through some friends that belong to one of these groups (I know how Arameans or Assyrians get angry when the issue is mentioned) and reading beyond Wikipedia. Nevertheless, I am not that knowledgeable as you Arameans/Assyrians are on the issue.


 * "I'm not sure what makes you think that Arameans are only limited to the West of Euphratus." It mainly based on my personal encounters with individuals from these areas. Mainly because all the Iraqi Christians or the people "East of Euphrates" (this term "East or West of is Euphrates" is strange to me but is employed very often in the angry debates that I witnessed in real life, Wikipedia and throughout internet) that I know identify as Assyrians or Chaldeans but no one as Aramean. On the other hand, all the Christians from Syria (except the Hassake area) or the people "West of Euphrates" that I know identify as Arameans or Syriacs but no one as Assyrian or Chaldean.


 * "What you suggest is exactly what Assyrian propaganda intends, namely to deny the ethnic connection between Syriac Christians from Mesopotamia with the Arameans." And "The only term that unites us is in fact Syriac or Suryoye/Suraye, because this is the term we all used before nationalism started and it describes our Syriac Christian heritage." If you check the discussion on the Talk:Assyrian people page you will see that I supported the umbrella term Syriac people (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans) in the comments but decided not to vote on the issue as a result of what I read in the discussion there that these is no way for simple umbrella term for the Syriac Christians within the Mideast without nationalistic views, that is why on second thought I did not vote, because either way would favor Assyrian or Aramean views and it will not be a simple neutral term. Also, I think if possible, the umbrella term page Syriac people (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans) has to be a new page/article because the current situation is either all Syriac people become Assyrians only or all Syriac people become Arameans only. Therefore, currently there is no neutral page/article where all the groups distinct or not to be included together without one side to prevail. (Possibly the only neutral article is Terms for Syriac Christians.)  MaronitePride (talk) 23:44, 13 July 2015 (UTC)


 * @MaronitePride "Mainly because all the Iraqi Christians...that I know identify as Assyrians or Chaldeans but no one as Aramean." True, that's because the majority of Iraqi Syriac Christians belong to the Assyrian Church of the East and Chaldean Catholic Church, where probably 99% don't identify as Arameans. The majority of Syriac Christians who identify as Arameans are

adherents of the Syriac-Orthodox Church. Most Syriac Christians in Turkey and those who live near the border between the Syria and Turkey are Syriac-Orthodox Christians. "On the other hand, all the Christians from Syria (except the Hassake area)...that I know identify as Arameans or Syriacs..." My family are Syriac-Orthodox Christians from Hassake and lived near the border between the Syria and Turkey and identify as Arameans. I know that there are also Syriac Christians from the Assyrian Church of the East near the Khabur River. You mentioned that you know people who identify as Arameans. Do you know to which church those people belong to?--Suryoyo124 (talk) 20:35, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you will struggle to get the 2 articles. they will just keep voting against it. Sr 76 (talk) 13:52, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

we need to find some newspaper sources and TV news material from isreal, lebanon and about Malaula of the term Aramean.Sr 76 (talk) 02:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

how did we go?Sr 76 (talk) 05:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I've tried to find newspaper sources and TV news material primarily in English, but it's very limited especially about the Aramean community in Ma'loula, who are simply called "Aramaic-speaking people" or "Christians" like most other Christians in the Middle East. You would probably have more sources in other languages, such as Arabic, German or Hebrew unlike in English, but English Wikipedia only accept sources in English, if I am not mistaken. Prof. Dr. Werner Arnold is an expert in Western Neo-Aramaic, who lived among the Arameans in Ma'loula, Bakh'a and Jubb'adin and studied their dialect. On his website he uses the term Arameans maybe he can provide even more sources since he is most likely fluent in both Arabic and Western Neo-Aramaic and knows the the self-designation of these people better than most of us. But admins like Future Perfect at Sunrise revealed their true face and don't care about neutrality and reliable sources. I am wondering, why English Wikpedia works totally different compared to other Wikipedia sites, such as German Wikipedia on this topic. Why not creating an Aramean continuity claim or Aramean nationalism article in contrast to Assyrian continuity and Assyrian nationalism or even Phoenicianism articles? What would speak against such articles as long as they are filled up with reliable and neutral sources, and you have provided plenty of them.

http://www.rahim.eu/maaloula/theaseren.html http://www.uni-heidelberg.de/fakultaeten/philosophie/ori/semitistik/nwalit_en.html --Suryoyo124 (talk) 13:02, 22 July 2015 (UTC)



I found some other TV documentation and news, where they use Arameans, but it's all in Arabic. --Suryoyo124 (talk) 17:39, 22 July 2015
 * http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QEPvf2TQ0ko ,
 * http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B1In7fmCbz0 ,
 * http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hYCSc_bjp24 ,
 * http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iEoPCPPSrmc ,
 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YkJO7EPfMI (This is an Al Jazeera documentation about the people from Ma'loula and probably about the Syriac Christians in general. They are talking about the language and probably self-designation (Arameans/Syriacs), but unfortunately I don't understand Arabic. MaronitePride can help) ,

Help me establish consensus, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arameans#Edit_requestSr 76 (talk) 07:34, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Michael the Syrian
is currently a redirect to. That's the only change I made. I saw no need to note it on the talkpage as the category is a redirect. If it's problematic go ahead and revert - it's no skin off my nose. -- Ser Amantio di Nicolao Che dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 08:48, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Assyrian people article
It's hopeless and I am kinda shocked about the way English Wikipedia works! They want the term Assyrians for Arameans and redirect them to the Assyrian people article!? Fine, I added the "Assyrians" from Maaloula to the article and removed some of the Assyrian POV's. Prof. Dr. Werner Arnold will probably have more Information about the Arameans from Maaloula, which we could add to the Assyrian people article as well. I suggest to work with the Assyrians people article for the moment, and create an Aramean continuity claim or Aramean nationalism article and relate it to the Assyrian people article similar to what they did with the Assyrian continuity and Assyrian nationalism articles, which would be legitimate and we could also accommodate the sources to the articles which specifically deal with these topics, because if you would put statements like the one from Saint Ephrem the Syrian about the Arameans, e.g. into the Syriac Christianity article, it would be a much easier target for nationalism driven Assyrians to falsify and remove the content then. Most readers aren't stupid and will notice the anomaly they've created (admins and Assyrian nationalists) and will ask for clarification, which might result in seperate logical articles to have an overview without getting lost (See how German Wikipedia handle this issue. It's by far the best most logical). Thanks to the stubbornness of Penguins53 and 'AynHaylo and other Assyrians, the Assyrian term will be meaningless by accommodating Aramean content and removing Assyrian POV's, which is expressly willed by Future Perfect at Sunrise. Most Assyrian Wikipedians won't be amused and maybe they'll be willing to cooperate next time. --Suryoyo124 (talk) 19:41, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Blocked again
I have blocked both participants of the recent bout of reverting on Assyrian people, you for 3 months, Penguin indef. Penguin was reverting without participating on talk; I find your behaviour slightly less bad, since at least you did show up on the talkpage; however, during all these weeks that I've been following this issue, I've still not seen you making concrete, constructive proposals for actually improving the article – the only thing you appear to be wanting to do is deleting entire sections, again and again. This is a pity, because (as I think I've said before) I find it rather obvious that the article is in fact quite tendentious (in the pro-"Assyrian" direction) and badly in need of a rewrite. I was still hoping you would contribute something to that, but apparently you lack the will or the skills. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:13, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I asked you a number of times to intercede so @shamyo's reverting would not take place, i waited a long period for you to do this before applying the changes. Changes in accordance to the talk page, and hence the rules.

How are you supposed to "contribute" to the page while there is so much conflicting text??????????? I have been arguing for the removal of the history section because you will no longer have this conflict. Since the page is called Assyrian people then should that be the focus, not history because after all it is history where the conflict is.

Rather then blocking me, why don't you ask @Shamyo and @Penguins53 that want that section in place, to provide sources????? You blocked me for wanting to remove a section of the page that is poorly sourced????

You need to break it down before rebuilding it, otherwise, you will then turn around and call it a POV-fork.

I explained why i want the section deleted, YOU didn't object. The ones that objected offered no reason, so why am I blocked? I was the only one with a valid argument. Sr 76 (talk) 07:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

@penguins53 was only following @shamyo's example.....why wasn't @shamyo blocked he did the exact same thing? @shmayo is the same guy that formed a posse on the Assyrian Voice forum to corrupt Wikipedia with this politically drive Assyrian-POV. again he is left untouched by you. Sr 76 (talk) 08:07, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

has your solution of blocking everything with a pulse improved the page yet?Sr 76 (talk) 13:49, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * As an administrator, I can stop people from editing disruptively, but I can't force them to edit constructively. If there's nobody willing and able to make constructive contributions, the article will remain a mess. There's nothing I can do about that. You, for one, certainly don't seem to have been attempting to make any constructive contributions for the last several years. You are still welcome to do so. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:35, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * you still don't seem to understand the scope of the problem you have created. Let me simplify this for you: THE SOURCES DON'T EXIST. How are you going to improve a page that has been identified as having problematic references, when the terminology that you have bound everyone to...Assyrian...has no sources to back it up? You want the contributors to change the academic works to accommodate a political agenda that you stumbled your way into? Do you want contributors to change the sources and the academic views to match the ill-informed decision that you made? Is Wikipedia an Encyclopedia or a parody site like "The Onion"? Sr 76 (talk) 04:23, 9 February 2018 (UTC)


 * No response? "Constructive editing" cant occur for the reasons i have described above. You were also not willing to look at other solutions, you seem to be driven by the change the you made unilaterally several years ago. After several years, by your own admission the page is still a mess. Isn't time you rolled back the bad choice that you made?


 * You made the choice of redirecting Syriac People to Assyrian People Page without a vote. But you require a vote to change it back to the fairer terminology? Even after it was demonstrated to you that the page is being controlled and voted on, by a group of Assyrian nationalists from the Assyrian Voice Forum. Proven sock-puppetry and collusion, in complete violation of Wikipedia Rules. How are you going to improve the page, after it was proven to you that this collusion is still taking place?


 * when i identified the Syriac in the opening line is incorrect: "Assyrian people (Syriac: ܐܫܘܪܝܐ‎)", this issue had already been discussed on the talk page and then corrected. It was then rolled back, without any mention on the talk page, in violation to YOUR rules. When i spotted this happening I brought it up, you did nothing about it. So this "Constructive editing" is not possible, if changed it back to the correct word in Syriac, you would block me edit warring. Right?


 * You ignore the complaint and then you block people from making the change. The page is a mess because you made it a mess.Sr 76 (talk) 07:40, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

Aramean article
Would you like to participate? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard --Optra2021 (talk) 02:15, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

The admins have closed the talk.Sr 76 (talk) 23:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello  Sr 76, please go to the Aramean talk page, if you want to join the discussion, where Mugsalot opened another RFC. --Optra2021 (talk) 00:43, 3 September 2020 (UTC)