User talk:Stavgard/Archive 1

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Welcome!

Hello, Stavgard, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! --Shirt58 (talk) 09:25, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
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March 2010
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from. When removing text, please specify a reason in the edit summary and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's talk page. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the text has been restored, as you can see from the. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. De728631 (talk) 19:00, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

February 2012
Please make sure that you use reliable sources for all of your articles, please also make sure that you wp:wikify everything, and follow Wikipedia standards for formatting. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 08:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

What does this mean?????? wp:wikify everything, 19:36, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

A discussion about your edits
Please see Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents and discuss your edits there. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 08:12, 12 February 2012 (UTC) Mike Rosoft (talk) 09:26, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Please stop what you are doing. The pages you are creating are of little use for Wikipedia:
 * They are unformatted - in one long block of text and without paragraphs [note: you need to use two line breaks to separate paragraphs] or wikilinks. See the manual of style.
 * They are unreferenced, and read more like an academic paper than an encyclopedic article. If it's a research paper you have written, then please note that original research is outside the scope of Wikipedia. If it's written by somebody else, then it's a copyright violation.
 * They are sometimes duplicate to topics that already exist on Wikipedia.

Your contributed article, Gotland, the Pearl of the Baltic Sea


Hello, I notice that you recently created a new page, Gotland, the Pearl of the Baltic Sea. First, thank you for your contribution; Wikipedia relies solely on the efforts of volunteers such as yourself. Unfortunately, the page you created covers a topic on which we already have a page - Gotland. Because of the duplication, your article has been tagged for speedy deletion. Please note that this is not a comment on you personally and we hope you will continue helping to improve Wikipedia. If the topic of the article you created is one that interests you, then perhaps you would like to help out at Gotland - you might like to discuss new information at the article's talk page.

If you think that the article you created should remain separate, contest the deletion by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". Doing so will take you to the talk page where you will find a pre-formatted place for you to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Additionally if you would like to have someone review articles you create before they go live so they are not nominated for deletion shortly after you post them, allow me to suggest the article creation process and using our search feature to find related information we already have in the encyclopedia. Try not to be discouraged. Wikipedia looks forward to your future contributions. bonadea contributions talk 10:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Stavgard, please do reply to messages here
Hi Stavgard! While your contributions to the Wikipedia project are appreciated, there are some problems with them. So what to do now? The first thing to to do is to reply to the messages written here! Please do reply to messages posted here. Your fellow Wikipedians are here to help build this project, and here to help you build this project. --Shirt58 (talk) 11:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Essays
Have you ever considered the possibility of using paragraphs and section headings? Do you think that people might find it rather daunting to see 14kbytes of solid text. Have you looked at any other Wikipedia articles to see how they are laid out? Please answer. If you do not reply, I shall assume that you have a limited grasp of English and that these essays are in fact copyright violations.

More importantly, have you looked at any other Wikipedia articles to see how they cover notable subjects and are well referenced?

You probably have copies of your essays but just in case, I have lumped most of them together into User:Stavgard/sandbox. Each one can be accessed via the edit history.

I have left astronomical calendars in Gotland. It is possible that this may be developed into a decent article. The first thing to do of course is to work on the references. Do not create any more articles until astronomical calendars in Gotland has been around for a few days and appears to be acceptable. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 11:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Website
What is your relationship to http://stavgard.com? I see you include the URL in your edits. Are your contributions your own research or are you paraphrasing legitimate academic work? Original research is not permitted and your edits are going to be reverted soon if you don't communicate with us. Россия является вашим родным языком? S.G.(GH) ping! 11:50, 12 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Link don't work with www in front. That's funny - which edits included the link? &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 12:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * this one. S.G.(GH) ping! 15:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Please do not remove maintenance templates. They are there to ensure that the articles meet the required standards of quality. S.G.(GH) ping! 18:39, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

This is your last warning. The next time you create an inappropriate page, as you did at Astronomical calendars in Gotland, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. ''Please engage in discussion on your talk page with regards to the concern about your articles. If you continue to not discuss but continue to create these articles despite the concern and calls for discussion, you will be blocked from editing.'' The Bushranger One ping only 19:47, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Astronomical calendars in Gotland


The article Astronomical calendars in Gotland has been proposed for deletion&#32; because of the following concern:
 * Essay-like article that is at best something that needs to be started over and very likely duplicates existing topics.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. The Bushranger One ping only 19:51, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Again you need to use reliable sources.
As per everyone above. I reverted your additions to Gotland as the violate wikipedia policy. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:10, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

So what must I do to extend the Gotlandic history with what I wrote and correct incorrectness on the page? Stavgard (talk) 19:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Temporary block
You have been blocked temporarily from editing for abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal this block by adding the text, but you should read the guide to appealing blocks first. I have blocked you for 12 hours because today you have started again adding massive amounts of unreferenced text to various articles. This is just one example. Please start discussing these additions either here or on the relevant talk page. Continuing to edit in this way is beginning to become disruptive. If you don't understand what is going on and cannot see why you have been blocked, then please reply here by editing this page or by editing the 'talk' page linked next to my name. Kim Dent-Brown  (Talk)  10:19, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by unreferenced text? I am the author of the Gotlandic history and have researched it since 1990. My first book came in 1990 Gutarnas historia and sold in 7000 copies. In 1994 came an extended version "Gotland Östersjöns pärla, centrum för handel och kultur i Östersjöområdet under 2000 år" In 1996 a German translation was published. Now after 15 more years of research the manuscript for a new book in English about the Gotlandic history is ready. It is my copyright material that I use extracts from.

On the page of Gotland somebody with poor knowledge of the Gotlandic history has written the text. If you want something about Gotland on Wikipedia it must be correct. Did not find out how to communicate with you before.


 * OK, thank you for replying on the talk page here - that is very helpful! (By the way, you can sign your name by typing ~ at the end of your talk page posts.) "Unreferenced text" means that the text you entered did not have any indication of a reliable source to show where the information had come from. Even if you have written this information yourself and can vouch for its accuracy, we need a citation of a journal, book, authoritative website etc where it appears so people can go back to the source. References do not have to be in English but it does help. If you can link any publication information for non-English additions that will help. We can then show you how to use in-line references by using the tags. On the copyright issue, we cannot I am afraid take your word for it that you hold the copyright. You could be anyone plagiarising the text! The full information is at WP:COPYVIO but essentially the material needs rewording (or you need to release it into the public domain entirely, which I guess your publishers might not be happy about...)


 * I will check here periodically during the day to see if you leave any more messages - but perhaps others with eyes on this page can help as well. Best wishes and thanks gain for replying, Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  10:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Tore: Your books are not reliable sources. You are not a historian, they are not published by publishers publishing reliable historical texts. I love your books and theories, but they are just speculation, and not facts. You can't present them as facts here. Please read the relevant Wikipedia policies, mainly WP:V.
 * You have a lot to contribute here, but you can't use the books as sources. I do like, and I improved on, you pointing out that Jordanes does not name Scandinavia, he names an island in the arctic sea. You think it's Gotland, most people thinks it's Scandinavia (I think the two got mixed up). Pointing out, with sources, what he actually said is an improvement. Claiming he described Gotland is not acceptable, because that's your personal theory that nobody else subscribes to. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:01, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

What are you taking about? I am an recognized historian with 20 years of research on the early Baltic history. My research is recognized by various scholars such as Professor Bo Gräslund,Professor Åke Hyenstrand now desesed, Professor Jan Svanberg, Professor Kenneth Jonsson, Fil.Dr. Jan-Peder Lamm, I had close contact with the late Gad Rausing etc


 * I'm sorry, Tore, this is both not the case, and also irrelevant. You, and your self-published books, are not reliable sources according to Wikipedia policies. These policies are there for a good reason. You need to read the policies. They explain it in detail. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Stavgard - on the internet, nobody knows who you are! I could post my own theories and say I have dozens of people who agree with them, but until I post precise details of reliable sources I would just be making empty claims. Can you provide citations of reliable sources (books, journals, authoritative websites) to demonstrate that these assertions are verifiable? That's all we're asking, but I'm afraid your personal reassurances are not enough. (By the way, you can sign your name by typing ~ at the end of your talk page posts.) Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  11:24, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

OK. go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Germanic-L/. this is an international discussion group with more than 650 members from all over the world. I am well known among all this members, many of them professors in various subjects

Tore Gannholm ~ If you GOOGLE on Tore Gannholm you get about 21 300 results and you say I am unknown on internet!!!


 * Yes, you are well-known, especially on Gotland. This changes nothing. Nobody is a reliable source. You are no exception. For example, you claim to be Tore Gannholm. I believe you, but can you *prove it*? No you can't. You just claim to be Tore Gannholm, but how do we know you aren't lying?
 * YOU are not a reliable source. You have to have reliable sources for the things you add. It really is that simple. Please read WP:V. Don't bother answering here until you have read WP:V. (Btw, if you google my real name, you get 100.000 hits. And I *am* unknown on the internet. And I'm definitely not a reliable source.) --OpenFuture (talk) 11:42, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't include the "nowiki" parts when you sign. If fact, there is a picture of a pen making a signature above in the editor. Use that to sign. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:42, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying you are unknown - just that until this moment you had not indicated any source for the information you were adding. Whether or not the material is suitable as a reliable source I cannot say right now - I will do as you say and look.

My e-mail is tore@gannholm.org and I got this e-mail the other day. He sent it to my brother who forwarded it to my. I did not find the link how to reply to you. The links I found just pushed me round in a circle. Now I know how I get hold of you.

- Forwarded message -- From: Roger W Haworth  Date: 2012/2/12 Subject: Dumb insolence To: soren@gannholm.org

I assume that you are Stavgard on Wikipedia. Why on earth are you refusing to discuss? You are very likely to be blocked for "dumb insolence", ie. incivility rather than for your edits. In case you don't understand, please go to your talk page. Read its content fully then click on the Edit link at the top of the page and reply to us. RHaworth

Now when I know how to communicate with you I expect a civilized communication Tore Gannholm ~

You can also find me on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1342689404 Tore Gannholm ~


 * Once again: Do *not* include the nowiki and /nowiki parts when you sign. When you include it, it does not make a signature.
 * Also, please read WP:V and confirm that you have read and understood it. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Stavgard - we have been trying to contact you for days. That is what the big orange bar with "You have messages at your talk page" means. It's disappointing that you have only decided to respond once you were blocked, but let's try and sort things out now. I have used Google Scholar with the name Tore Gannholm and have found three sources. Gutarnas historia :från förhistorisk tid till den slutliga svenska annekteringen 1679 sems to have been self-published in 1990. Guta lagh :med Gutasagan was published in 1994 by Ganne BURS and Gotland : Östersjöns pärla : centrum för handel och kultur i Östersjöområdet under 2000 år was published by Eget (I think) also in 1994. Self-published sources are not regarded as reliable here until they have themselves been cited by other authorities. As for the other two, I can't tell if they are reliable or not; I don't know the publishers. If these are reputabe, academic publishers with a strong editorial policy and a list of comparable publications then there is absolutely no problem. If they are your own imprint, there IS a problem. In between is a matter of judgement. Do you have any links to the publishers catalogues or other sites that would help us in this? By the way, just try typing ~ four times at the end of your posts - then you will get a signature like this: Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  12:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, is that what you want

According to Prof. Birger Nerman, Fv 1954 p 274: "The Scandinavian connections during the Late Bronze Age have been areas further east than Eastern Russia, and this will primarily concern Gotland. It is especially to Caucasus where a very rich culture flourished, that contacts during the relevant times apply " "You can imagine that the Gotlandic merchants during the late Bronze Age went out on the roads east and southeast of the Baltic Sea. Even people from other parts of the Nordic countries have probably made their way out on these trade routes. The Eastern influences have certainly in a significant way been mediated by the Gotlanders to the other tribes in Scandinavia." According to Dr. Vello Louga, Kontakter mellan Skandinavien och Östeuropa innan vikingatiden, p 123: "The eastern contact zone between the Scandinavian and Finno-urgian tribes is the upper and middle Volga region. Especially the Mari region is interesting in terms of the central area. It seems quite clear that relations between Scandinavia and the Volga region during the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age were direct." "In the 1970s a well-preserved cemetery from the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age was excavated, the old Achmulova grave field, where there is more than 1000 graves dating back to 800-500 BCE. In this cemetery are many of the skeletons encased in a ship-shaped wooden structure in the ground, but there is no indication above ground. Similar tombs are known from the same time only on Gotland, but there they are in stone vessels and stone coffins, and in the eastern Baltic coast are also some ship graves."

According to Professor Nihlén, Gotländska gårdar och byar under äldre järnåldern p 133: "It is the iron that creates a new basis for the future meaningful high, indigenous culture. On Gotland these developments are easy to follow. The island was in the forefront, they imported their own bog ore and they were likely to early have played a role in the trade of iron. In this way was created in the second century BCE conditions for the whole rich and multifaceted culture we encounter during the time of 'Kämpgravar'."

According to Professor Eric Nylén, Fv 1952 p 225: "Curiously, Gotland is quite alone in the Nordic region with the art boom, which might have caused one of the first big boosts to Gotland as a trading post in the Baltic Sea. Several of those ornamental details described here are found in Stradonice but occur to some extent also elsewhere in the Celtic area." Sune Lindqvist, Sveriges handel under forntiden, p. 58: "But the geographical location made the Gothic influence in the beginning strongest felt on Gotland which was located in the middle of the Vistula mouth (compare how Tacitus and Jordanes describes Gotland). This island, which is probably counting her sons in large numbers among emigrants, had ever since the Neolithic a highly distinctive culture, due to its on one hand isolated situation and on the other due to its inviting location links to very different directions. The Bronze Age culture was rich. Its oldest Iron Age culture, which should be considered to have been simultaneous with the 6th Bronze Age period, is richer than in any other part of Sweden. Even the Celtic and the beginning future culture is distinguished represented. With the sudden flare-up of Gothic influences, Gotland now took a real foreground position. It is apparently the first full-age appearance of the Gotlandic commercial aristocracy, who then gathered in their hands the threads of vast trading networks throughout the remainder of non-Christian times and even during the first centuries of the Middle Ages, to be broken first by the Atterdag campaign (1361) and by the German Hanseatic League (founded 1358) cut-throat competition." Stavgard (talk) You write: Could you try and draft something similar here so we can see how you manage? Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 15:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC) But I am blocked to try

1. ^Fritz Askeberg, Norden och kontinenten i gammal tid p. 42 2. ^Canterbury Tales 3. ^Country antiquarian David Damell, Fornsigtuna p 24 4. ^Dr. Hilda Roderick Ellis Davidson, The Viking Road to Byzantium, p. 57 5. ^Gunnar Fritzell Gotländska samlingar, p 5 ff 6. ^Martin Giertz, Gotlands Allehanda 1990 7. ^Academic treatise, as authorized by the Faculty of Philosophy in Lund to public scrutiny produced by August Hammarström Lund 1873 p. 41 8. ^Göran Henriksson says in Riksbloten i Uppsala p. 19 9. ^Henriksson, G. article from the symposium in Mosow 2002. "The grooves on the island of Gotland in the Baltic sea: a Neolithic lunar calendar". In Proceedings of the conference “Astronomy of Ancient Civilizations” of the European Society for Astronomy in Culture (SEAC) and National Astronomical Meeting (JENAM), Moscow, May 23-27, 2000, ed. T. M. Potyomkina and V. N. Obridko, 72-77. Moscow. 10.^Ibn Chordadhbeh (Book of the ways and countries 847) 11. ^Ibn Fadlan 12. ^Ibn Rustah 13. ^Barbro Idoffs article in Gotländska studier 2 p. 39 14. ^Jordanes 15. ^Professor Lars-König Königsson, Fornsigtuna p 20 16. ^Professor Sune Lindqvist, Sveriges handel under forntiden, p. 58 17. ^Professor Sune Lindqvist, Arkeologiska studier, p 73 18. ^Professor Sune Lindqvist, Vendelkulturens ålder och ursprung p. 101 19. ^Professor Sune Lindqvist, Sveriges handel under forntiden p. 58 20. ^Professor Sune Lindqvist, Ynglingaättens gravskick p 154 21. ^Fjalar Linge, Gotländska studier 2 p. 29 22. ^Dr. Vello Louga, Kontakter mellan Skandinavien och Östeuropa innan vikingatiden, p 123 23. ^Professor Birger Nerman, Fv 1954 p 274 24. ^Professor Birger Nerman, En kristen mission på Gotland p 38 25. ^Professor Birger Nerman in Die Vendelkultur im Lichte des gotländischen Funde p 94 26. ^Professor Nihlén, Gotländska gårdar och byar under äldre järnåldern p. 62ff 27. ^Professor Adolf Noreen, Fv 1920 p 31 28. ^Professor Eric Nylén, Fv 1952 p 225 29. ^Professor Eric Nylén, Bildstenar p 22 30. ^Frederick Ochsner, Gotlands kristnande p. 25 31. ^Prokopios 32. ^Dr. Gad Rausing's field studies. Fv 1985 33. ^Professor Herman Schück, Gotland och biskoparna i Linköping, GA 1961 p 45 34. ^Professor Adolf Schück, STF:s årsskrift 1940 p 80 35. ^Professor Adolf Schück, Gotlands politiska historia p 199, p 206 36. ^Professor Mårten Stenberger, Det forntida Gotland, p. 86 37. ^Professor Mårten Stenberger, STF årsskrift 1962 p. 53 38. ^Hans Nielsson Strelow: Den Guthilandiske Cronica 1633 39. ^Professor Arved Svabe, Lettlands historia 40. ^Tacitus Germania 41. ^Thunmark-Nylén, L., 1985. Gotlandsparadoxen. (The Gotlandic paradox.) Tor 1985. Uppsala. 42. ^Professor Elis Wadstein, Friserna och forntida handelsvägar i Norden p 11 43. ^Professor Elias Wessen, Fv 1969 p 27

1. ^Fritz Askeberg, Norden och kontinenten i gammal tid p. 42 2. ^Canterbury Tales 3. ^Country antiquarian David Damell, Fornsigtuna p 24 4. ^Dr. Hilda Roderick Ellis Davidson, The Viking Road to Byzantium, p. 57 ~

Reliability of sources
There is a reference to The Origin of Svear (english) ISBN 91-972306-8-5 in Försvunnen värld : om den största arkeologiska utgrävningen någonsin i Sverige / Maja Hagerman ; foto Claes Gabrielson

Hagerman, Maja, 1960- (författare) Gabrielson, Claes, 1953- (fotograf) ISBN 978-91-1-302436-3 (inb) Stockholm : Norstedt, 2011 Svenska 442 s.

Didn't you find 2000 Jahre Handel und Kultur im Ostseegebiet : Gotland, Perle der Ostsee?

My books have been referred to in Fornvännen, the officail organ for Swedish National Heritage board This is about my first book in 1990 http://fornvannen.se/pdf/1990talet/1992_260.pdf

Here is about Beowulf http://fornvannen.se/pdf/1990talet/1995_050.pdf

I know there are more references to my books but I have to look for them

Stavgard (talk) 12:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I followed up the link you gave to the Swedish National Heritage Board and it's not encouraging. The review article says of the work: Vad som dock kanske främst bör påtalas är bristen på "akademisk" skepsis och försiktighet att inte på basis av det ofta svårtolkade materialet och källorna uttala sig med för stor säkerhet och beteckna sina resultat som sanna och slutgiltiga. Här brister det betänkligt i Gannholms bok och hans hypergotländska inställning lyser bjärt igenom. This comes out of Google translate (sorry, my Swedish is non-existent....) as: However, what might should primarily be criticized is the lack of "academic" skepticism and caution that not on the basis of the often difficult to interpret the material, and sources say with too much security and denote their results as true and final. Here deficiencies it must be regarded in Gannholms book and his hypergotländska attitude is transparently obvious.
 * If you are producing that quote to try and convince us of the reliability of these books, I'm afraid it's having the opposite effect on me! The quote suggests, on the contrary, that this author is NOT a reliable source. Please have a look at this page on reliable sources, and tell us the which of your books or articles is the best candidate to be regarded as a reliable source. Then we can judge that and see where we go from here. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  12:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

This was my first book after 3 months research and with the help of Fil.Dr. Jan-Peder Lamm at that time head of the Iron Age department at the Museum in Stockholm. I presume your Swedish is not to good. It was actually meant as a complement that I dared to present new views on the Gotandic history. This was new at that time and started a lively discussion but is today by the majority of scholars in my circle of Acquaintances applauded.

G a n n h o l ms sätt a tt  a r b e ta  m ed sina  spe c i e lla  f ö r u t s ä t t n i n g a r,  s om  r e d o v i s as i  f ö r o r d e t,  är i n t r e s s a nt o ch  l ä r o r i k t.  S om  d a t a e x p e rt  o ch p r o b l e m l ö s a n de  k o n s u lt  är  h an van  a tt  ur  e tt s t o rt ma t e r i al  s n a b bt söka  u t l ä sa  d et vä s ent l iga o ch k o n c e n t r e ra  f r å g e s t ä l l n i n g a r n a. Att  m ed e tt  " a k a d e m i s kt  o r ö rt  s i n n e" på  d e t ta  s ä tt  a rb e ta  m ed  d et  s t o ra  h i s t o r i s k t - a r k e o l o g i s ka mat e r i a l et  f r ån  G o t l a nd  b ör ge  i n t r e s s a n ta  r e sult a t.

Gannholms way to work with his special  conditions as accounted for in the preface   is interesting and  instructive. As computer expert and problem solving consultant he is used to form a large material see what is important and concentrate on what is important in questions. With academic untouched sense in this way work with the large historic-archaeological material from Gotland should give very interesting result.

If you want to interpret it in your way it is up to you. However this is not what Erik Nylén meant. He very much appreciated that I dared to open new ways in the Gotlandic research.

You must remember that I made this impression already after 3 months research. My new extended book in Enlish has 20 more years of research and serious discussions with many scholars in my circle of Acquaintances Stavgard (talk) 13:34, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I read that section earlier on in the review; it doesn't describe what you have achieved but what you ought to be able to achieve. The critical section I quoted came at the end of the review and seems pretty unequivocal as an evaluation of what the work amounts to. I am not convinced that the works of Torre Ganholm (whom I don't doubt is you) are reliable sources in themselves. But presumably in your books you cite academic authors, journals etc? If yuo are then you can simply use them for the material you want to include. If the material you want to include is your own research then that is not possible, however.
 * Why don't you find one fact from your books which is backed up by a reliable secondary source? Then include it in an appropriate atricle with a reference (I'll help you do that). This would be a start, at any rate - what do you think? Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  13:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

You want the sources I have used Here they come

Källhänvisningar: Adam av Bremen, 1984 Almgren, Bertil, Hjälmar, kronor och stridsrockar - från kejsargardets Rom till Upplands hövdingar, 1980 Almgren, Oscar, Hällristningar och kultbruk, 1927 Ambrosiani, B., Långsamt formades svearnas rike, Pop. historia 1/92 Ambrosiani, Sune, Stadfästelsebrev för ett danskt Knutsgille på Gotland från senare hälften av 1100- talet, GA 1936 Appelgren, K. och Engström, J., Datering av vallen på Gothemshammar - medeltid eller stenålder, Tor vol 22 1988-89 Arkeologi på Gotland, Gotlandica nr 14, 1979 Arne, T.J., Gotland- Kiev under vikingatiden GA 1943 Arne, T.J., Gotländska silverfynd från vikingatiden, Fv 1931 Arrhenius, B, En nyfunnen svärdsknapp från Uppsala v.hög Fv 1963 Arrhenius, B,Svärdsknappen från Vallstenarum på Gotland Fv 1970 Arfwidsson Bäck, Birger, Visborgs fall, 1980 Askeberg, Fritz, Norden och Kontinenten i gammal tid, 1944 Balodis, Francis, Handelswege nach dem Osten und die Wikinger in Russland, 1948 Bæksted, Anders, Nordiska gudar och hjältar, 1986 Bergh, Lennart, Inbördeskrigets år på Gotland, 1988 Björkegren, Rudolf, Gotländskt, 1951 Bohn, Robert, Gotland Tausend Jahre Kultur- und Wirtschaftgeschichte im Ostseeraum, 1988 Bolin, Sture, Från Tacitus till Tage Erlander, 1963 Bolin, Sture, Gotlands vikingatidsskatter och världshandeln 1963 Bolin, Sture, Muhammed, Karl den store och Rurik, 1939 Burenhult, Göran, Arkeologi i Sverige, 1983 Burenhult, Göran, Speglingar av det förflutna, 1986 Bra Böckers Lexikon Carlsson, Dan, Populär Arkeologi nr 2, 1988 Collinder, Björn, Beowulf, 1954, 1988 Davidan, Olga,Skandinavien och Ryssland under 700- 1000 talen Davidson, H.R. Ellis, The Viking road to Byzantium, 1976 Davidson, H. R. 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Funde, 1938 Nerman, B., Die Vendelzeit Gotlands, 1975 Nerman, B., Die verbindungen zwischen Skandinavien und dem Ostbaltikum in der jüngeren Eisenzeit, 1929 Nerman, B., Die Völkerwandrungszeit Gotlands, 1935 Nerman, B., En kristen mission på Gotland, Fv 1941 Nerman, B., En kungsgård från Bröt-Anunds tid?, 1932 Nerman, B., En svensk invandring i Tröndelagen under Vendeltid? Nerman, B., En utvandring från Gotland, 1923 Nerman, B., Gravfynden på Gotland under tiden 550-800, 1924 Nerman, B., Sutton Hoo - en svensk kunga- eller hövdingagrav? Fv 1948 Nerman, B., Sveriges rikes uppkomst, 1941 Nerman, B., Var låg centrum i Fjädrundalands småkungadöme, Fv 1963 Nerman, B., Yngre bronsåldern- en första svensk vikingatid. 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Fv 1952 Nylén, Erik, Mellan brons- och järnålder, Aa 44 1971 Nylén, Erik, Vendelryttaren, en länk mellan öst och väst - forntid och medeltid, Tor 19 (1980 / 82) Ochsner, Friedrich, Gotlands kristnande, 1973 Ohlmarks, Åke,Fornnordiskt lexikon, 1983 Ohlmarks, Åke, Nya testamentet, Goternas bibel, 1962 Okulicz-Kozaryn, Jerzy, Ett kulturcentrum vid Weichsels mynning under de första århundradena av vår tideräkning, 1992 Olsson, I, Gotländsk natur och historia speglade i ortnamnen, 1979 Olsson, I, Gotländska terrängord, 1959 Olsson, I, Keltiskt inflytande på Tuna-namnen? Fv 1992 Olsson, I, Ortnamn på Gotland, 1984 Omnelius, Bengt, Wulfila och runorna, 1992 Procopius, The secret history, Penguin Books 1966 reprinted 1983 Rausing, Gad, Beowulf, Ynglingatal and the Ynglinga Saga, Fv 1985 Schildhauer, Johannes, The Hansa history and culture, 1988 Schlyter, Samling af Sweriges gamla lagar, del 7, 1852 Schnittger, Bror, Silverskatten från Stora Sojedeby, Fv 1915 Schück, Adolf, Gotlands politiska historia, 1945 Schück, Adolf, "Sjöborgar" och "hamnstäder", Fv 1924 Schück, Adolf, STF:s årsskrift 1940 Schück, Herman, Gotland och biskoparna i Linköping, GA 1961 Schwarz, Ernst, Goten, Nordgermanen, Angelsachsen, 1951 Sjöholm, Elsa, Gesetze als Quellen mittelalterlicher Geschichte des Nordens, 1976 Snöbohm, T.H., Gotlands land och folk, 1897 Sperber, Erik, The weights found at the Viking Age site of Paviken, a metrological study, Fv 1989 Srigley, Michael, The Dream of Troy, Tor vol 22 1988-1989 Stalsberg, Anne, Skandinaviske vikingetidsfunn fra det gammelrussiske riket, Fv 1979 Steffen, Richard, Gotlands indelning och organisation, 1945 Stenberger, M., Det forntida Gotland, 1945 Stenberger, M., Elias Dahr und Henr. Munthe, Das Grabfeld von Västerbjers auf Gotland, 1943 Stenberger, M., I Vikingarnas spår, 1967 Stenberger, M., Die Schatzfunde Gotlands der Wikingerzeit, 1958 STF, årstidskrift, 1962 Ström, Folke, Nordisk hedendom tro och sed i förkristen tid, 1961 Studier över Ynglingatal av Walter Åkerlund, Skrifter utgivna av Vetenskaps-Societeten i Lund, 1939 Sturlasson, Snorre, Snorres Edda, Björn Collinder, Forum 1983 Sturluson, Snorri, Ynglingasaga, Nordisk filologi serie A, 1952 Snorre Sturlassons kungasagor Svabe, Arved, Lettlands historia, Stockholm 1961 Svahnström, Gunnar, Visby under tusen år, 1984 Svennung, J., Jordanes und die gotische Stammsage, Studie Gotica, Antikvariska serien nr 25 Svennung, J., Die Swioneninsel und die Sithones bei Tacitus, 1963 Svennung, J., Scadinavia und Scandia 1963 Svennung, J., Zur Geschichte des Goticismus 1967 Svennung, J., Skandinavien bei Plinius und Ptolemaios 1974 Söderberg, Bengt, Gotland i historien, 1968 Tacitus, Cornelius, Germania, Natur och Kultur Stockholm, 1961 Thunmark- Nylén, Lena, Populär Arkeologi nr 2, 1988 Thunmark- Nylén, Lena, Samfund och tro på religionsskiftets Gotland, 1989 Tiberg, Nils, Utvandringsberättelsen i Gutasagan, GA 1946 Tikhomirov, M., The towns of ancient Rus, 1959 Tortzen, Christian, Gotland 1361, 1961 Trójumanna saga. Ed. J. Louis-Jensen, 1981 Wadstein, Elis, Friserna och forntida handelsvägar i Norden, 1920 Wadstein, Elis, Norden och Västeuropa i gammal tid, 1925 Wallin, Jöran, Gotländska Samlingar 1747, 1776, facsimil 1972 Varangians Problems, 1970 Vasilev, A.A ., The Goths in the Crimea, Cambridge Mass. 1936 Vendeltid, 1980 Werner, J. Die Schwerter von Imola, Herbrechtingen und Endrebacke, 1950 Wessén, Elias, Nordiska folkstammar och folknamn, Fv 1969 Wessén, Elias, Sveriges Hednamytologi och Fornhistoria, 1924 Wessén, Elias, De nordiska folkstammarna i Beowulf, 1927 Westholm, A., Gotl. kyrkogårdsfynd från brytningstiden, Fv 1926 Wikander, Stig, Araber Vikingar Väringar, 1978 Wiklund, K.B., Den svenska befolkningens ålder i Finland, Fv 1933 Wilson, David M., Vikingarna och folken i norr, 1980 Wolfram, Herwig, Ursprung och religion - Etniska traditioner och litteratur från tidig europeisk medeltid, 1992 Yrwing, Hugo, En marinarkeolog om den tidiga frisisk-tyska Östersjöhandeln, Fv 1989 Yrwing, Hugo, Gotlands medeltid, 1978 Yrwing, Hugo, De s k köpmanskyrkorna, Fv 1980 Yrwing, Hugo, Visby Hansestad på Gotland, 1986 Yrwing, Hugo, Visby och uppkomsten av Tyska hansan, 1989 Yrwing, Hugo, Valdemar Atterdags gotlandståg, 1963 Åberg, Nils, Den histroriska relationen mellan senromersk tid och nordisk folkvandringstid. 1956 Åberg, Nils, Germanerna i brytningstiden mellan senantik och medeltid, Fv 1948 Åberg, Nils, Vendeltida förbindelser med fastlandsgermanska och insulära kretsar, Fv 1948 Åberg, Nils, Vendelgravarna och Uppsala högar, Fv 1949 Stavgard (talk) 14:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that isn't what I asked for. What I said above was this: "Why don't you find one fact from your books which is backed up by a reliable secondary source? Then include it in an appropriate atricle with a reference (I'll help you do that)." Dumping a pile of undifferentiated references is not helpful; what we need is for each significant edit you make to be backed up by a specific reference to a particular secondary source. I will go away and find an example and post it here so you see what is meant. By the way, I have made a section break above as we are discussing reliability of sources now, not the block directly. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  15:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, here is an example from the article on Swedish prehistory:
 * In the 5th and 6th centuries, they became divided as the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, and established powerful successor-states of the Roman Empire in the Iberian peninsula and Italy. Crimean Gothic communities appear to have survived intact in Crimea until the late 18th century.
 * You'll see that the in-line citations appear at the end of the piece. They are both to good secondary sources, with a page number in the case of the book. This is what e need you to do when you make edits to a Wikipedia article. Could you try and draft something similar here so we can see how you manage? Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  15:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You'll see that the in-line citations appear at the end of the piece. They are both to good secondary sources, with a page number in the case of the book. This is what e need you to do when you make edits to a Wikipedia article. Could you try and draft something similar here so we can see how you manage? Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  15:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, is that what you want

According to Prof. Birger Nerman, Fv 1954 p 274: "The Scandinavian connections during the Late Bronze Age have been areas further east than Eastern Russia, and this will primarily concern Gotland. It is especially to Caucasus where a very rich culture flourished, that contacts during the relevant times apply " "You can imagine that the Gotlandic merchants during the late Bronze Age went out on the roads east and southeast of the Baltic Sea. Even people from other parts of the Nordic countries have probably made their way out on these trade routes. The Eastern influences have certainly in a significant way been mediated by the Gotlanders to the other tribes in Scandinavia." According to Dr. Vello Louga, Kontakter mellan Skandinavien och Östeuropa innan vikingatiden, p 123: "The eastern contact zone between the Scandinavian and Finno-urgian tribes is the upper and middle Volga region. Especially the Mari region is interesting in terms of the central area. It seems quite clear that relations between Scandinavia and the Volga region during the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age were direct." "In the 1970s a well-preserved cemetery from the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age was excavated, the old Achmulova grave field, where there is more than 1000 graves dating back to 800-500 BCE. In this cemetery are many of the skeletons encased in a ship-shaped wooden structure in the ground, but there is no indication above ground. Similar tombs are known from the same time only on Gotland, but there they are in stone vessels and stone coffins, and in the eastern Baltic coast are also some ship graves."

According to Professor Nihlén, Gotländska gårdar och byar under äldre järnåldern p 133: "It is the iron that creates a new basis for the future meaningful high, indigenous culture. On Gotland these developments are easy to follow. The island was in the forefront, they imported their own bog ore and they were likely to early have played a role in the trade of iron. In this way was created in the second century BCE conditions for the whole rich and multifaceted culture we encounter during the time of 'Kämpgravar'."

According to Professor Eric Nylén, Fv 1952 p 225: "Curiously, Gotland is quite alone in the Nordic region with the art boom, which might have caused one of the first big boosts to Gotland as a trading post in the Baltic Sea. Several of those ornamental details described here are found in Stradonice but occur to some extent also elsewhere in the Celtic area." Sune Lindqvist, Sveriges handel under forntiden, p. 58: "But the geographical location made the Gothic influence in the beginning strongest felt on Gotland which was located in the middle of the Vistula mouth (compare how Tacitus and Jordanes describes Gotland). This island, which is probably counting her sons in large numbers among emigrants, had ever since the Neolithic a highly distinctive culture, due to its on one hand isolated situation and on the other due to its inviting location links to very different directions. The Bronze Age culture was rich. Its oldest Iron Age culture, which should be considered to have been simultaneous with the 6th Bronze Age period, is richer than in any other part of Sweden. Even the Celtic and the beginning future culture is distinguished represented. With the sudden flare-up of Gothic influences, Gotland now took a real foreground position. It is apparently the first full-age appearance of the Gotlandic commercial aristocracy, who then gathered in their hands the threads of vast trading networks throughout the remainder of non-Christian times and even during the first centuries of the Middle Ages, to be broken first by the Atterdag campaign (1361) and by the German Hanseatic League (founded 1358) cut-throat competition."

How to produce in-line citations
Hello again, it looks like you are experimenting with how references work but are having some trouble. Can I suggest you have a look at this page which gives you instructions for how to insert in-line citations and generate a reference list?

You are still blocked for a few more hours but until you can master this I suggest you DON'T try to edit Wikipedia; if you try and make a mess of a reference list in main article space you will not be popular! I suggest you set up a new sandbox page and experiment with the edits you want to make. I'll help you out - edit this red link to produce a sandbox page where you can experiment to your heart's content. I suggest you start with a draft of a paragraph you'd like to include in an existing article somewhere. Message me back here if you need further help - I will help as often as I can (but can't guarantee to be here all the time.) Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  21:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Good morning. I entered the the references in the box you suggested and it looks like your examples. I presume these references should be added to added to the reference list on GOTLAND but how do I get it in there and how do I get back the facts you refersed? Stavgard (talk) 07:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Stavgard, I'm sorry but again you haven't done what I suggested at all. Please read this page. Then use your sandbox to draft an addition to the Gotland article]]; I will help when you have something there. At the moment you are treating the reference list as if Wikipedia was paper - it's not. We use in-line references within the text and the software then assembles them into a reference list at the end. Please read WP:INCITE to understand how this works. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  07:12, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

You are right it is not like writing on paper. It really needs supervison. It looks like I got it right now Stavgard (talk) 08:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC) Stavgard (talk) 08:44, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's much better. I did some updates to improve it even more, by using citation templates, like this. They make it easy to create good citations, where you can easily look up and verify the claims.
 * In addition, I would like to point out that Fornvännen certainly is a reliable source, but that Sören Gannholms self-published "Gotlands slipskåror" just as definitely is not. --OpenFuture (talk) 08:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

You call it self-published. In Sweden we get funds from various foundations to print this type of books. If the book does not hold certain standards you do not get any funds. Sörens book is important as this is an inventory of all the grooves on Gotland (a kind of Bible) and is compiled in co-operation with the Gotland museum an funded by the Mårten Stenberger Scholarship fund and the Society of DBW's Foundation. You save money by having it printed yourself.

I will give you an example. My Book in German, which is translated into German by a reknown archaeologist than at the University of Kiel, I inteded to publish through a wellknown publisher in Northern Germany. They demanded that I pay the full printing cost and after that I would get 10% commission on sold books. It had it printed myself and kept the full profit. Therfore I started Stavgard förlag and have mine and my friends books printed there. I have done the design myself and the books layout has been appreciated.

I realise that I have to think in different lines when I work on Wikipedia against who I worked in PageMaker. Now it is Indesign. Stavgard (talk) 09:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

You earlier referred to   Ingemar Nordgren (2004). The Well Spring of the Goths: About the Gothic Peoples in the Nordic Countries and on the Continent.

If you didn't know it it is an selfproduced book with what you call speculations. But good for discussions. I know Ingemar well and we have internationally discussed very much on our e-group. He had to pay a publisher to have them to distribute the book. Stavgard (talk) 09:51, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I certainly did not refer to that book. Somebody did. If it isn't a reliable source for its claim, it should be marked as such, and preferably not used. This is also something you can fix. I do not even know where this reference is.
 * Discussion is good, and your books are excellent examples of books that help discussion. But Wikipedia is not about discussion it is about knowledge. Here we should write what we know, not speculate or discuss. There are better forums for that. Your theories on astronomical alignments should definitely be mentioned, but we can't show them as facts, they have to be definitely mentioned as speculation, and this only because we don't know for sure. All theories on these grooves are speculation. Your's is a fringe one, but well-known enough to be mentioned IMO. --OpenFuture (talk) 09:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

It not my theories. Göran Henriksson is a recognized scholar in this field. He has made a computer program to date according to how the sky looked in the past. He has redated the Egyptian Faraos which is no accepted. As well as the Trojan war. NASA has been on him a couple of times to by the program.

The fact is that you can see these grooves with your own eyes and they are provenly from the Stone Age. In the article it says the dating is according to Göran Henriksson.

Why do you show Stonhenge? It falls in the same categorie. Stavgard (talk) 10:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No, Stonehenge does not fall in the same category. And archeo-astronomy is a highly controversial field, and Göran Henriksson has been heavily criticized. His research has been called "nonsense" by archaeologists as well as astronomers. It is not a fact that the grooves are from the stone age. It is your opinion. It can not in any way be proven by what we know today, nor can it be disproven. We simply don't know for sure, and the articles need to reflect this.
 * Arguments like we have now are the reason for why wikipedias policies are centered on the verifiability of claims based on reliable sources. A self-published book does not become a reliable source because you managed to get some funding for the printing. That's not how it works. The books are still self-published. For your (and Henrikssons) writings to be reliable sources they need to be published by peer-reviewed journals or publishers that are well known for academic quality publishing. That's just how it is, and you will have to accept that.
 * This doesn't mean that your writings can not be used as references. They can, if they are used to reference something that is clearly noted as being a fringe view. --OpenFuture (talk) 11:24, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * To try and move us forward, I have edited the article on Gotland with this edit using informatoin from your sandbox. I haven't used everything you wrote as it would be too much information in one general article. There's also one reference needed - to the dating made by the Dept of Astronomy at Uppsala - do we have a reference for that? Now, it's possible someone may revert this edit but in principle it's an illustration of how to add to an article; brief information, with a reference, that does not undily unbalance the rest of the article. Is there another snippet of information, where you have good references, that we can include as a second step? Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  14:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

It is Fil.Dr. Göran Henriksson at the Dept of Astronomy at Uppsala that have dated them. They are also archaeologically dated to the Stone Age.

This is enough for Astronomical calendars to start with. What worries me is my other corrections on Gotland that have been deleated again.

I see that you gone back to the desinformation and taken away my corrections. There is not a RAM in the Gotlandic seal it is a EYE, that is important. It is the feminine animal

Visby was not a Hanseatic city. Visby never joined the Hanse. There is a letter about that they preferred to stay outside the Hanse and mind their own business. The ward "hanse" does not exit in Visby. It only appers in the Baltic Sea after the formation of the German Hanse in 1358

This is a complete lie!! The city of Visby and rest of the island were governed separately, and a civil war caused by conflicts between the German merchants in Visby and the peasants they traded with in the countryside had to be put down by King Magnus III of Sweden in 1288

The Swedish king mediated as he 2 years earlier had mediated between Norway and German traders in Norway I suggest my correction in this part is put back. Stavgard (talk)
 * Re the insertion I made to the Gotland article - you say above when I ask for a reference: "It is Fil.Dr. Göran Henriksson at the Dept of Astronomy at Uppsala that have dated them. They are also archaeologically dated to the Stone Age.". This is not a reference. A reference is a published book, peer reviewed article or authoritative website where this information can be accessed. Where has Dr Henriksson published his dating of the grooves? This is the reference we need to insert. Kim Dent-Brown   (Talk)  15:50, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I missed this part. Fil.Dr. Göran Henriksson has been attached to both the Dept of Astronomy and Dept of Archaeologi at Uppsala

Paper presented at Conference: SEAC 8th. Moscow 2000 Publisher: Institute of Archaeology. Russian Academy of Sciences. Title: Astronomy of Ancient Civilizations ISBN: 5-02-008768-8 Editor(s): Prof. Tamila Potemkina & Prof. V. Obridko Place/Year: Moscow, 2002

Stavgard (talk) 21:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC) Stavgard (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)