User talk:Stepho-wrs/Archive/2022

TR7 lead
WRT "Split the timeline sentence. Otherwise it tends to read as from 1974 to 1981 until 1975 - which of course is non-sensical. Perhaps the detail of the change of division should be moved out of the lead."

First off, I think if you cut bits out of any sentence like that, you can make it appear like nonsense; avoiding what you shortened it to is the reason for the inversion in "by the Rover-Triumph Division of the British Leyland Motor Corporation (BLMC) until May 1975" (and the preceding comma). But even "...from 1974 to 1981, until 1975 by the Rover-Triumph Division of the British Leyland Motor Corporation (BLMC)", would have issues, which is why I didn't put it so. However, while I disagree that it was nonsense, and certainly don't see the need to opinion that in the edit description, I accept that if anyone found it confusing, it is better changed.

I was trying to keep it as a single, if slightly complex, sentence in alignment with most of the other car articles I've bothered to look at. But anything to do with BLMC/BL is inevitably more complicated than it should need to be.

On the point of moving it out of the lead, I'm not sure it would be right to remove the attribution of the manufacturer to somewhere else. If it really were so simple as a "change of division" within the same company, it would be easy. But as there is no common term I can think of for both BLMC and BL, as Don Ryder et al changed the name, it is bound, as said, to be more complicated than it should need to be. Indeed, it is more complicated than even that, since it was only BL from 1978, being British Leyland till Edwardes changed it again. But that's obviously too pedantic for the lead, and "British Leyland (BL)" covers both well enough. So, if it has to be two sentences to avoid it confusing some, then so be it. But I think it stays in the lead.

While I've put this here in your talk, maybe the last bit should be in the TR7 talk.

Graham

Graham.Fountain | Talk 15:50, 22 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi Graham. I initially removed the "until 1975" part because I had misunderstood the original sentence. You correctly reinstated it and the reinstated version did make sense. But it was also easy to misinterpret it (as I did) and it was the misinterpreted version (ie, the version in my head) that was non-sensical. The sentence was trying to pack too much information in and was therefore hard to decode. Which is why I split it into two sentences - the first sentence with the overall production dates and the second sentence showing that the factory changed partway through production. I believe the 2 sentences convey exactly the same information as the original single sentence but is easier to read. Apologies if my edit summary sounded more critical than I intended.


 * Personally, I think that the particular factory that produced a particular instance of the car is not a vital piece of information that belongs in the lead. It definitely belongs in the article somewhere but is not really a defining part of the car. However, your point about the company itself changing does hold considerable weight. So I mentioned it in passing as a thought for others to consider but didn't actually take action on it. I'm not dead set on this either way.  Stepho  talk 21:37, 22 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I understand it's not easy to summarize such things as concisely as the space allows. Also. I've been in self-isolation for near 2 weeks, cos one of the sprogs tested positive and didn't do the reporting process right. So I may not be quite as rational as I should be.


 * I agree that neither the factory nor the division that made the TR7 matter greatly to the lead; just the company change from BLMC to British Leyland (BL), when Don Ryder and the NEB effectively nationalized it. I admit that is just a name change, with a bit of a managerial cull and divisional reorganization - see Charlton Ogburn -, but I don't know how to identify the company making the TR7 without covering the change and its date.


 * Maybe it's something like the following:
 * "The Triumph TR7 sports car was manufactured in the United Kingdom from September 1974 to October 1981 by British Leyland Motor Corporation (BLMC), which changed its name to British Leyland (BL) in 1975. The car was launched in the United States in January 1975, with its UK home market debut in May 1976. The UK launch was delayed at least twice because of high demand for the vehicle in the US, with final sales of new TR7s continuing into 1982."
 * Then cover all the divisional changes, from Rover-Triumph Division to Specialist Division then Jaguar-Rover-Triumph Division, and plant moves, from Speke to Canley in 78 and then to Solihull in 80, in the body. It could still be split into two sentences, but without the other baggage, and with the information about the change after a descriptive relative pronoun, I think it's okay as one. Graham.Fountain | Talk 12:19, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yep, no problem with that. Your rewrite of the lead also sits well with me.  Stepho  talk 11:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Re: Toyota Corona edits: "only an idiot would confuse the two"
If the world weren't full of idiots we wouldn't be in a situation where we'd be concerned about confusing the two for three years now in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:280:c680:c530:b0c4:529b:bbbb:34c0 (talk • contribs)


 * It's hard to make things idiot-proof because the world keeps making better idiots. :)  Stepho  talk 06:28, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Automotive industry
That would obviously make the short description too long to read. I just tried to modify the short description to include what the industry does with vehicles. Perhaps "tuners, tyre fitters, muffler shops, aftermarket suppliers, aftermarket fitters, car stereo suppliers/fitters, air conditioner shops, windscreen companies, electrical repairers, body repairers, automobile insurers" can be included in the article text to list all organizations involved here &mdash; CrafterNova [ TALK ]  [ CONT ] 11:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Add such a list to the article sounds like a great idea.  Stepho  talk 11:24, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Your revert
Good morning. Concerning your revert in Boeing 307: So what about Airspeed Ambassador, Lockheed L-1011 TriStar or VFW-Fokker 614 an dozens of others? Regards --Uli Elch (talk) 09:22, 16 February 2022 (UTC)


 * You are correct, those other articles should be changed too.  Stepho  talk 10:31, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

TR7 V8 engined version or separate TR8 model?
Do you have an opinion on the edit made to add the V8 engine in the info panel, it's removal me, and reversion of that by the originator]? [[User:Graham.Fountain|Graham.Fountain | Talk 17:21, 20 February 2022 (UTC)


 * I've added my 2c to the discussion. But my TR7/8 knowledge isn't all that much, so I've just stuck to general principles.  Stepho  talk 09:30, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Issue with the lede in the Nissan GT-R article.
Hey, me and another editor got an issue with the lede in the GT-R article. So I'm requesting to join our discussion and provide a third opinion about our issue. Best regards. XT RedZone (talk) 08:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

What did everyone else call IEEE-1394?
Hi! If you happen to know what IEEE-1394/FireWire/i.LINK/etc. tended to be called by those who did not attempt to rebrand it, please follow up your comment at Talk:IEEE 1394. Thanks! —151.132.206.250 (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

revert
concerning your revert, could you please always make sure that you are only reverting the contributions of one editor at a time? -- Kku (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Oops, my mistake and my apologies.  Stepho  talk 22:42, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

3S-GT confusion.
Sources aren't completely clear, but most seem to agree that the engine was known as the 3S-GT, despite being an EFI engine. They also seem to imply that 3S-GT is merely another name for the 503E, likely to differentiate the 480bhp detuned version in the GT500 cars from the 800bhp monster the 503E is. Glitzyditzygal (talk) 23:07, 6 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Toyota has always been as clear as mud about their race engines and often use the same code for different race engines or different codes for the same engine depending on what race they are going in. Which is why we need to clarify it as much as possible and use good references. If need, we can say things like "officially listed as a 3S-GE (which do not have a turbo from the factory) but used a turbo for racing".  Stepho  talk  08:52, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'd love to work together with you on this, and see if we can clarify this. I just can't seem to find a whole lot of sources on the Toyota GT500 engines as my current search terms pull up articles on the TOM'S Supra itself and not Toyota's GT500 powertrains. It may just be a case of being officially known as a 3S-GT(non-EFI) but having EFI for GT500. As far as I can find, the GT500 Supra's powertrain is just a derivation of the 503E detuned for GT500's regulations and doesn't change too much on the original 503E architecture. Glitzyditzygal (talk) 16:09, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Fast v. Quick
Hi Wayne,

I'm Jay Boucher from Canada and thank you for your polite input on my "Fast v. Quick" suggestion I made yesterday. Would you further-extend your help by directing me to a page that can show me how to do a redirect? I like the way your signature appears on screen, is there also a page that can show me how to do that as well? Can you tell I'm a neophyte? One more thing; If I practice using my sandbox, can anyone see that?

By the way, I too once owned a 1982 Toyota Corolla SR5 (E71-Liftback), I drove it until the holes on the floor became too big and large quantity of slushed snow began to mount right beneath the carpet lining only to freeze overnight! What can I say, both the engine and manual transmission just never died-out, even after travelling just under half a million kilometers with it. I had nicknamed it My Little Japanese Tank.

13lorem (talk) 11:56, 8 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi Jay.
 * Yep, I've found polite co-operation produces better results than antagonism.
 * I don't have much experience with snow (2 weeks in Sweden at -20C). My experience is with hot weather. I was visiting Ottawa during a "heatwave" of 30C - we thought it was nice weather and went for a 2 hour walk across town. But you're certainly right about Toyota making tough cars. My little fleet of 80s Toyota just keeps rolling.
 * For redirects, the big secret is to create a new article and put in
 * If somebody ever goes to that article (say, by typing part of it in the search box and getting auto completion) then WP will automatically redirect them to List of fastest production cars by acceleration.
 * See an example at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Toyota_Cressida_(X70)&redirect=no (click on edit to see the code, then cancel).
 * See also WP:REDIRECT.
 * Your signature can be changed at [] about halfway down (there is a link in the top right corner of any WP page). My signature (a car license plate) is
 * My signature is very near the size limit. Any HTML and/or CSS will work.
 * Sandboxes can be seen by anybody but people have to do work a bit harder to find them. If you don't advertise them then nobody is likely to stumble across them. if you want somebody to look at it then just send people a link on their talk page - just like linking to any other article.  Stepho  talk 23:28, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:ConvertStringToNumeric
Template:ConvertStringToNumeric has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:35, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Module:ConvertStringToNumeric
Module:ConvertStringToNumeric has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the notification.  Stepho  talk 04:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Message
Hi. Stepho-wrs — Preceding unsigned comment added by GamingGrape20000 (talk • contribs) 09:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi. What's up?  Stepho  talk 10:15, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Stepho-wrs

Thank you for creating Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid (XW50).

User:SunDawn, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with. Please remember to sign your reply with ~.

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

&maltese; SunDawn &maltese;    (contact)   15:38, 11 June 2022 (UTC)


 * , thank you for your kind comment.  Stepho  talk 23:44, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Spaces in refs
Hi Stepho-wrs, I find that archive URLs are very long and become blocky and obstructive when editing. This also applies to the other ref parameters without spaces between them. Adding a space allows text to flow better in the edit window, making editing easier. Try it out, and do as you please. I do as I please.

The extreme version is the refs with line-separated parameters, seen sometimes. Those are a lot more different compared to a packed ref. All this is only seen in the edit window, not to regular readers, so there is not much reason to argue some hidden consistency. Article content is a lot more important. Regards, TGCP (talk) 14:33, 12 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Agreed that a well placed space makes editing much easier. For this reason, I place a space just before each  character in the references and remove any spaces around the   characters. This has the same effect as you mentioned, is a bit more consistent and keeps the field name with the field value.  Stepho  talk  06:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Drag equation
thanks for fixing it up i just added a basic list of sources for it Thanks for nameing it i just didint have the time to make it neat any thanks again Kind Regards, NojoRising — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nojo walton (talk • contribs) 00:10, 16 June 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem.  Stepho  talk 10:39, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Convert template on Nissan Leaf
Hi Stepho, the convert template with "cvt" gives the abbreviation and "convert" give the full spelling, the way it was written in does give mi as the abbreviation for miles which is standard on Wikipedia. What do you think it should be? Avi8tor (talk) 11:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)


 * My preference is that "mi" is a non-standard abbreviation and "miles' is plenty short already. It's been suggested on the convert talk page that  abbreviates to "mi" and   abbreviates to "miles". There was general support but it's been sitting on the back burner.  Stepho  talk  11:53, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm OK with mi, better than the brits who use "m", which is already the defined symbol for metres. The French don't use mL (millilitres) as they use that abbreviation for metres longe, i.e. length, they use cL (centilitres). Avi8tor (talk) 16:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

An award
Thank you for teaching me about the specific types of car pictures that can be used in articles. Weird Malapropism (talk) 07:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem.  Stepho  talk 07:59, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Regarding JasonVHDDZ
Stepho, when you see this kind of self-reverted disruption, it's almost certainly a sockpuppet of an LTA vandal. See Sockpuppet investigations/DavidWittas and its associated archive. --Sable232 (talk) 21:29, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I gave a warning (just in case it was a newby just learning) then ignore it until they get bored and leave - ie "don't feed the trolls". But thanks for the heads-up.  Stepho  talk 23:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC)


 * 115.97.44.181 is doing the same thing.  Stepho  talk 05:39, 23 August 2022 (UTC)
 * 158.140.167.121 too.  Stepho  talk 09:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Mercedes-Benz CLK LM
G'day Stepho, I hope this finds you well. You're probably a busy man, but I'd just like an assessment on the talk page of this article for the banner please. Chur X-750 List of articles that I have screwed over 21:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject Climate Change - mid importance for car
Hi, I am referring to your edit on the talk page of car. Of course cars are a major problem for climate change but this doesn't mean it needs to be high importance in the logic of WikiProject Climate Change. Otherwise we would end up with hundreds and hundreds of articles on the "high" importance (I am currently weeding that out a bit). I think "mid importance" makes more sense for car. Please also here and feel free to participate in WikiProject Climate Change: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climate_change#Worked_on_top_and_high_importance_labels (we can continue the discussion there if you like). EMsmile (talk) 09:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem, mid importance works for me.  Stepho  talk 09:03, 5 October 2022 (UTC)
 * OK, cool, have changed it to "mid". EMsmile (talk) 09:29, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

FWD/RWD
I believe you are misunderstanding why FWD vs RWD is brought up. No one has denied that cars change layout while keeping a nameplate. The reason it is of significance for the Commodore is 2 years versus 40. It is akin to using Adolf's baby picture for the main infobox at Adolf Hitler; he didn't look like that for very long and it is not the visual you get when you hear the name.

As evidence, you bring up three examples of other cars that switched:


 * Ford Escort (Europe) - 19 years RWD, 22 years FWD. Clearly either one is fine.
 * Toyota Corolla - ~20 years RWD, 40 years FWD. Open to choice, I think of Corollas as FWD but the RWD ones are in no way outliers.
 * Chevrolet Nova - 18 years RWD, 4 years FWD (and a rebadged Corolla, built in California) - the FWD one would be a terrible choice for the main infobox, because it is unrepresentative in several ways. FWIW, it has never been the main picture.

Same thing with the Holden Gemini - two generations, one RWD and one FWD, thus irrelevant in that case. Also, Pontiac LeMans - 22 years of North American production with RWD, 5 years as a captive import with FWD. The Daewoo one is an outlier and would make a bad choice for the main infobox. And it has nothing to do with whichever car I prefer myself - my heart always lies with the rebadged failures and the sad captive imports.  Mr.choppers &#124;  ✎  01:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem, just trying to look at from all angles.  Stepho  talk

Source
I was looking for a learned source for Toyota's 100cc advantage campaign and came upon this paper. Then I noticed that the author referred to a "Stephenson" to support the statement I was interested in - and naturally it pointed to your website. I read a bit more and I think you ought to perhaps be credited as co-author...  Mr.choppers &#124;  ✎  01:16, 28 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Cool - kind of nice to be credited as an authority in a published paper. I'm not fussed about being a co-author. The 100cc advantage was copied from either Toyoda's autobiography "Toyota - fifty years in Motion" or "Toyota - A History of the first 50 Years", can't remember which. I had a scan of the 100cc advantage advert that I downloaded years ago from some defunct Japanese site but I'd need to go hunting to find it again.  Stepho  talk 01:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Found it! It's a rather poor, noisy scan but I dumped it at http://members.iinet.net.au/~stepho/brochures/Corolla/
 * I also dumped a cleaned JPEG version. The timestamps show I did this circa 2001-2002.
 * Also found the reference - Eiji Toyoda, "50 years in motion", page 134.  Stepho  talk 02:06, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * That's more than I had bargained for. I remember the "Plus 100cc" campaign; nice to have you scan the exact page. Best,  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  02:32, 28 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Strange, I never thought of Datsun returning the favour for the Datsun 1200 - in spite of my first 4 cars being from the B10/110/120 series (including a Datsun 1200 coupe race car with an A14 block, A15 crank, bored 100 thou to 1600cc and topped with an A12 GX head, lumpy cam and dual 45DCOE Webbers). And of course Toyota matched the Datto 1200 with the 1166cc 3K in my KE35 coupe and then up another notch for the 4K engine in the KE55.  Stepho  talk 05:39, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of DS 7


A tag has been placed on DS 7 requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

"Redirect that will be deleted to make way for a page move"

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, pages that meet certain criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. AudiGuy-1204 (talk) 18:21, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

2022
Actually I was creating it and I seriously meant it. 60.243.73.178 (talk) 13:30, 28 October 2022 (UTC)


 * How about you give me a clue what you are talking about. What topic?  Stepho  talk 05:07, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Toyota sienna
1998-2004 1st gen 2004-2010 2nd gen I believe that that the sienna 2nd gen started being created in late 2003 or early 2004 because I don't remember ever seeing a 2nd gen sienna with a license plate that starts with 4 I have only seen one with a license plate that starts with 5 and 6 and 4 series license plates switched to 5 in early 2003. Therefore my opinion is that the toyota sienna second gen, started being produced in at the earliest October or November 2003 because in January 2003 the 4 series license plates were still being created and the second gen sienna did not have 4 series license plates. Ryguy Awesome (talk) 02:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a reasonable speculation. However, reliable sources say that factory production of the 2004 model year Sienna started on January 10, 2003:
 * https://www.autointell.com/News-2003/January-2003/January-2003-4/January-22-03-p2.htm
 * https://global.toyota/pages/global_toyota/ir/financial-results/archives/en/August_5_2003_Presentation.pdf
 * https://www.autosafety.org/wp-content/uploads/import/09V023%202004%20Sienna%20Service%20Campaign.pdf
 * https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2014/RCDNN-14V273-5329.pdf
 * Of course, sales and registration will be later than that and there will of course be vehicles built in late calendar year 2002 still being sold and registered through the first quarter (half?) of calendar year 2003 as stock gets used up.  Stepho  talk 10:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

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Fixing WP:DATED issues ("currently")
Hi Stepho-wrs,

thanks for fixing some of these in the Tesla Cybertruck article. Regarding your edit summary here though, that kind of conclusion is unfortunately not always valid - quite often the statement may have been changed after the citation was added, meaning that it actually refers to a different time than the source' publication date. What's more, it seems that you mistook the source access date for the date on which it was published - it looks like the two differ in this case. Regards, HaeB (talk) 05:45, 7 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bring this to my attention - I have corrected it to July 2022 (the date of the reference taken from its URL). True, things may change afterwards, but that's true of all references and is why we put "as of" so that readers know that our information is only valid up to that date. I have just double checked the that claims are supported by both references (time 6:30 for the long, long audio reference for production start in mid 2022).  Stepho  talk 10:57, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Shatai?
I figured using the Shatai name is a way to indicate that we are referring to the company which eventually became Toyota Auto Body (ie, before subsuming Arakawa and Gifu) - Shioji refers to it as Shatai, as does Toyota themselves. Toyota clearly states "Toyota Shatai was one of the predecessor companies of today's Toyota Auto Body Co., Ltd."  Mr.choppers &#124;  ✎  13:56, 14 December 2022 (UTC)


 * OK, no problem. It's always tricky whether to use the translated name or the phonetic name.  Stepho  talk 20:57, 14 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Cool. I figured that whatever Toyota calls it would suffice, but I am sure they call it Toyota Auto Body somewhere else - you know how it is when one does research, it is hard to continue searching once one has found evidence supporting one's existing beliefs. Japanese firms make it extra tricky by using a variety of names that sound very similar to my ears. I spent days researching the corporate divisions in 1950s and 1960s Mitsubishi and I felt like I knew less and less the more I read...  Mr.choppers &#124;   ✎  21:36, 14 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I've just created Toyota Shatai which is a redirect to Toyota Auto Body.  Stepho  talk 23:07, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Okie
Link to it, Okie. A major mass migration in the US, made possible by mass production of automobiles. I think Will Rogers made a pretty good joke about it, but haven't found it yet. User:Fred Bauder Talk 01:22, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

"We'll hold the distinction of being the only Nation in the history of the world that ever went to the poor house in an automobile." Radio broadcast, Bacon, Beans, and Limousines, October 18, 1931 Bacons, Beans, and Limousines on YouTube User:Fred Bauder Talk 01:25, 20 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking the time to explain it. However, this is a very US-centric thing that us non-Americans struggle to understand just from looking at a picture. To us, that's just a picture of an old car. The history behind it is tangential to the social issues. To put it in a different light, in other countries people moving during times of high unemployment walked, took the train or took wagons. For my country (Australia) we've had lots of economic migrants through most of our history that either took a ship or an airplane. The vehicle is just an ends to a means, not the actual social issue itself.  Stepho  talk  06:18, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Holidays!
G'day Stepho, have a good one with friends & family. Cheers. X750. Spin a yarn? Articles I've screwed over? 00:45, 25 December 2022 (UTC)


 * ✅ Thanks. And of course, merry Christmas to you.  Stepho  talk 01:18, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Talk page section deleted
I've just removed a section of Talk:Toyota Prius (XW20) created by a rather uncooperative editor evading a block. That included removing responses that you made, so if you disagree with my removal then please feel free to restore it. JBW (talk) 16:00, 26 December 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem.  Stepho  talk 01:18, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

2023 Toyota Crown from China
New Interior from press with Panoramic Sunroof

https://www.geekpark.net/news/313444 Kearl Lago (talk) 11:18, 30 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've added it to the Crown article.  Stepho  talk 13:23, 30 December 2022 (UTC)