User talk:Stevensaylor

Hello,, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! Tanvir 19:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
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Symbols in text
Welcome to Wikipedia. I see that you have recently added "®" symbols to a number of articles. May I draw your attention to a section in Manual of Style (trademarks):


 * Do not use the ™ and ® symbols, or similar, in either article text or citations, unless unavoidably necessary for context (for instance, to distinguish between generic and brand names for drugs).

Preferably, these symbols should be removed. If you have strong feelings about the matter, it can be discussed on an appropriate talk page.

Incidentally, I am a big fan of Roma Sub Rosa series. Are you a fan or even the author himself? Gaius Cornelius (talk) 10:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Response: Thanks for pointing this out. I have removed the ® and have included trademark info in the text instead. (Yes, I'm the author, Steven Saylor.) Stevensaylor (talk) 21:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing that. I look forward to reading more Roma Sub Rosa in the future, despite having many questions I will leave you peace in that regard because this is not a fan site. Happy editing. Gaius Cornelius (talk) 14:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Aesop
Hi, Stevensaylor! I think you and I need to talk methodology here about the changes I made recently to the Aesop article. I'm not sure if you saw my note on the discussion page apologising for any inadvertent stepping on toes. There's also a much more detailed discussion on the Aesop's Fables page about the need to make a clear distinction between the articles and on guidelines for writing and curating such articles. That's where I'm coming from: my interest is mainly in fables although I'm happy to pass on anything of a 'biographical' nature coming my way that might be helpful.

Your reverts raise several issues, but I'll stick to a couple for the time being and see if we can reach agreement. Firstly, I disagree very strongly that the 1971 Aesop's Fables film is 'color-blind'. Firstly, this was made at a time when the watchword was 'Black is beautiful' and there were assertive organisations like the Black Panthers around. (I was once present at a meeting of a UK branch back then). I see the film as being a would-be liberal attempt at easing the tension with a not so subtle subtext of 'it's OK being black but keep your place'. In the first place, not just the story-teller but the children are black. In the second, there are the morals of the two fables presented: "The tortoise that wanted to fly" is said to be about keeping your ambitions real, and being yourself; "the tortoise and the hare" is about aiming high and taking advantage of the incompetence (and over-confidence) of your rivals. Have you actually looked at this feature? I left a link which seems to have been lost in the reversion. It would be interesting to know who played Aesop in Peter Terson's original production(s) (1981, 1986) and whether the player was black. However, the all-black South African production is definitely making a political statement along the lines of 'the [black] slave is free now but needs to have a sense of responsibility'. I think both these items, in which Aesop is portrayed as black (though with different political undertones) belong much more naturally where I put them and I'd like to make a plea for their restoration.

I'd back that with a different methodological consideration. The Depictions of Aesop section is simply an uninterpreted list and this is unencyclopaedic. It also gives license to every bonehead to add that the word 'Aesop' occurs in the lyric of some sub-standard heavy-metal band whose fans have added an article about them to WP (so they must be notable, mustn't they?) That's why I tried to group some of the items so as to make it look less bitty. I'd like to suggest that you make something more of these items and give a sense of why mention of them is significant.

Finally, you were generous in thinking that I'd 'inadvertently' deleted mention of the fable literature that rode on the back of the Vanbrugh play. It's worse than you think! I gobbled the lot and shifted them over to the fable article, where they really belong...and found a stack more while I was at it. I was also fortunate in finding the text of Thomas Yalden's "Aesop at Court" (1702) and need to analyse it more closely. A quick glance suggests that most of the fables there are in fact Aesop's, slightly adapted to fit the political situation. I've deleted mention of them again in the Aesop article as being off-topic.

I hope this is enough to establish a basis of understanding between us. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 10:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Response: Hello, Mzilikazi1939. A misunderstanding: I did not say the 1971 Bill Cosby portrayal of Aesop was color-blind, nor did I remove it from the "Question of African Origin" section. The color-blind comment referred to the recent South African production of the Peter Terson play, and that was what I removed from the "African origin" section; in all references to this production, Aesop is identified as a Greek slave, never cited as Ethiopian or Nubian; while a black actor may have played the role, there is no indication that Terson's play is an any way part of the distinct tradition identifying Aesop as a black African. So we do NOT disagree about including mention of the 1971 Bill Cosby Aesop in the "African origin" section.


 * The YouTube link to the Cosby TV show is still there, in a footnote, where you placed it. But do not be surprised if someone removes it, because the gods of Wiki say that such links potentially violate copyright and routinely remove them.


 * I will mull over your argument re removing the "Aesop at..." pamphlets from the "Depictions in Popular Culture" section. Is Aesop himself portrayed as a character in these works? I will need to take another look.


 * I'm not sure I agree about removing the Bob Keeshan portrayal of Aesop from that section. By what criteria shall we determine whether this portrayal of Aesop is more or less significant than that of, say, Turhan Bey, or for that matter, Bill Cosby? It is yet another incarnation of Aesop, the most current, and will have made a strong (perhaps lifelong) impression on those who saw it.


 * I see the Charles Ruggles portrayal of Aesop (from "The Bullwinkle Show") has also been removed at some point, but there is an even stronger case to be made for its inclusion. For tens of millions of people, this remains the strongest image of Aesop, a benchmark of his ubiquity in American popular culture. It is hardly trivial and belongs here.


 * I also do not agree that the section is merely a list and thus not encyclopedic. All the portrayals of Aesop here are significant for various reasons. To explain the significance of each would indeed require considerable text, which might require this section to become its own article, something I had rather not see happen. (All depictions of Aesop are essentially from popular culture, since we have so little "factual" data about him.) If one reads the section as it stands, various motifs and trends are implicit.


 * Thoughts? Stevensaylor (talk) 21:06, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * PS: I think I may do a bit of rewrite on the "Popular Culture" section to highlight some of the recurrent motifs and changes over time, which will make it more encyclopedic... Stevensaylor (talk) 21:35, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the very full reply. I appreciate your way of giving greater coherence to the final section. It might be a good idea if you divided it into two, with representation in the arts up to the end of the 19th century and then popular culture starting...well, in 1946 at the moment.

I'd recommend still keeping the early 18th century pamphlets out. They signal the start of the political fable and, so far as I know, don't feature Aesop as a character. The pamphlets are difficult to come by, but you can check up on the Yalden "Aesop at Court" here. If the others are like it, then they just consist of fables in poetry that verges on doggerel. Have you looked at the fables site, by the way, and taken a look at all the other titles I've identified?

It probably doesn't matter so much now, but I still maintain that the Fugard production of "Aesop's Fables" is a statement about Aesop's blackness. There are white actors in Cape Town who could have been used. It's true that Aesop is portrayed as Greek, he was even dressed in Greek robes in the 2010 production - but the music, dance routines, conventions (like the lion's mask for eg), are African. Take a look at these snippets from YouTube, and maybe link to them in the article. I also think you need to underline what is pointed out in the first of your refs that, though the play is Peter Terson's, it is 'adapted and directed by Mark Dornford-May’ and probably differs quite radically from the original Tyneside production.

On using YouTube refs, by the way, I've used them extensively in my articles and interventions and check them now and then. So far I have only had to change the direction once. It's at YouTube that the policing of copywright material happens (and that's why I had to change the direction), not on WP in my experience.

I've kept mention of Aesop & Son in the Aesop's Fables article. It's germane and, as you say, was one of the avenues through which US kids were kept in touch with the fables. It wasn't me who deleted it, I think. However, I really do object to the reinstatement of the Hercules and the Kids 'portrayal' of Aesop. Have you actually looked at the cartoon? It's a mere 50 seconds out of a 20-minute feature, portraying him as a storyteller helping out at a school. That's NOT biographical, it's Hollywood trivialisation. It's definitely not notable. I know you take your curating of this article seriously so I'll ask you to think again about this inclusion.

Finally, I googled other fable productions, most of which are shows for very young kids that are limited to one locality. However, you might want to include Brian Seward's Aesop's Fabulous Fables (2009) which first played in Singapore and has toured since. That's intriguing for mixing Chinese routines into a standard musical (small excerpt on YouTube). There are mixed ethnicities in the cast and I can't work out which of them played Aesop.

That just about covers everything. Minds are beginning to meet, I hope. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 13:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link to Aesop at Court. I will agree that this is not actually a depiction of Aesop, so agree with its removal from that section.


 * Also thanks for the Hercules cartoon link. I can't remember whether I had seen it previously, but will agree this constitutes no more than a cameo appearance. I still might want to briefly mention as addendum to the Bullwinkle paragraph, but agree that might be stretching it.


 * Will also mull over explication and linkage of 2010 Aesop production in light of its African "take" on the play...will check out Seward play...and also consider if there is a cogent way to further explicate motifs of depictions in popular culture, perhaps noting a chronological breakage, as you suggest; problematically, the various themes (ugly, slave, black, romance with Rhodopis, or none of the above or combinations of above) do not sort out into neatly divided categories.


 * Onward!Stevensaylor (talk) 20:04, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey, Stevensaylor, where did this 'Onward!' salutation come from? The only guy I know who uses it is a Buddhist monk called Bodhidhamma. Are you a disciple?

Great to see you applying your expertise to the Aesop article just now. I thought you'd abandoned it for one of your own books. You may have noticed there was an era controversy over on the Talk page on which a poll was started. I wonder which side you stand on. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 11:28, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Continuity of themes
I'm grateful that you've taken my feed-in seriously. Here are a couple of suggestions how you might handle the continuity of themes. One is to sum up the later developments of what we must think of as the fictional Aesop at the start of the popular depiction article and use it to illustrate how stereotypes are perpetuated. The cartoon cameo is stereotypical too, depicting Aesop as a bearded story-teller in skimpy Greek tunic. The same tunic turns up in the South African production, I notice and, if I'm not mistaken, in the Singapore play too.

Another suggestion is to do what I did, and move forward some of the examples of Aesop treated as black to the section dealing with that theme. I've been thinking more about this and it seems to me that there is a difference between Aesop being treated as black in a white context and what might be called acculturation where Aesop is treated as black in a black context. The same group, I notice, did an all-black Magic Flute: African clothing, the music played on African instruments. So context makes a difference. I came to this realisation when I remembered that Aesop was once portrayed as yellow in the early 17th century Isopo Monogatari. Here's the reference: Lawrence Marceau, From Aesop to Esopo to Isopo: Adapting the Fables in Late Medieval Japan (2009) - ‘in the 1659 Japanese edition, the character of Aesop himself is portrayed in a Japanese environment, dressed in Japanese costume, and those around him take on the attributes of medieval East Asian ethnic groups, in spite of the fact that personal and place names continue to ring strongly of their Mediterranean origins. This body of texts thus serves as a valuable case study into the translation and adaptation of a Western secular classic into the Japanese idiom.’ p.277 This is backed by yet another academic source: J.S.A. Elisonas: Fables and Imitations: Kirishitan literature in the forest of simple letters, Bulletin of Portugese Japanese Studies, Lisbon 2002, pp.13-17 (for consideration of Isoho Monogatari)

I've also downloaded a Japanese woodcut from the 1659 edition at Tsukuba University, where the fable of the fox and the crow is shown in the top half and Aesop appears below as a servant (in Japanese dress) in the daimyo's court. I haven't uploaded it yet to Wikicommons (there'd be no copyright problems, it's over 350 years old). I was thinking of doing so and then substituting it for one of the pics in the Aesop article. It would complement the point about acculturation, if you felt like making it....I can't give you the link, WP doesn't like the site.

What do you think? Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 07:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

PS. I had some time free this morning so, rather than obliging you to construct something out of my ramble above, I decided to make coherent what was in my mind.

I've left edited-down versions of the information on which I built my argument in the following section. Given the new introduction you have given that, I don't see a way to dividing it between ancient and modern, but you may. It still looks like a list, and perhaps one way to approach it would be to divide it into thematic blocks: illustrations, drama, fiction. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 14:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

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April 2015: Bicycle Safety
Welcome to Wikipedia. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, including your edits to Bicycle safety‎‎, but we cannot accept original research. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:14, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Please do not add original research or novel syntheses of published material to articles as you apparently did to Bicycle safety. Please cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Thank you. Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:29, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Your boilerplate objection to the text I added is not relevant. Is the subject of "no hands" cycling as a bicycle safety issue unacceptable to you? Stevensaylor (talk) 18:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by adding your personal analysis or synthesis into articles, as you did at Bicycle safety, you may be blocked from editing. Dennis Bratland (talk) 19:03, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't think this text constitutes "disruptive editing"; rather, I think your repeated removal is tendentious. But if you would like to report this so as to have it adjudicated, that's fine with me. Alternatively, can you tell me exactly which statement(s) or cited source(s) in this addition is/are objectionable to you? Stevensaylor (talk) 19:51, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
 * You're fabricating the claim that riding without hands is an issue. Riding with a chicken on your head is also unsafe, but must we dwell on it (see WP:BEANS)? Even if WikiHow were a reliable source, that citation in no way "encourages" anyone to ride without hands. Even if it did, it is one source, not "some", as you misleadingly wrote. You have no idea why Colorado has a law about this; you're falsely implying the law exists to combat a hands free riding craze. You suggest multiple jurisdictions have the same law with no evidence. The bike manual you cite is a bike manufacturer publication written by lawyers to absolve Trek of liability, not written by bicycle riding experts who have the rider's interest at heart. Your previous edit that riding hands free is increasing in the US, in connection with texting or calling, is an utter fabrication. The truth is that riding with no hands is a stunt, and like all stunts it's risky, and, like all stunts, it can be learned and perhaps even mastered by some. You're trying to insert your own opinions and selective observations of your surroundings into Wikipedia using weak sources, and even then you're not accurately representing what your sources say. I am confident you will be blocked from editing if you persist.The wisest course, if you don't wish to drop it, is to suggest your addition at Talk:Bicycle safety or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cycling and see if you can gain the consensus of other editors. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Just hoping to save some lives here.Stevensaylor (talk) 06:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

April 2015
You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you violate Wikipedia's no original research policy by inserting unpublished information or your personal analysis into an article, as you did at Bicycle safety. Dennis Bratland (talk) 06:31, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * No violation of original research policy here. Peace. Stevensaylor (talk) 06:46, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

You have been blocked temporarily from editing for edit warring and violating the three-revert rule. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions. If you think there are good reasons why you should be unblocked, you may appeal this block by first reading the guide to appealing blocks, then adding the following text below this notice:. During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. 5 albert square (talk) 23:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

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Draft article
Thank you for editing my draft article on Jean Vigoureux. You addressed all the concerns I had about redundancy (from the newspaper clippings) and readability. Even the introduction reads in a more accessible fashion. I had wanted to keep the explanation about French Indochina in the Indochina section, since I figured many people have no idea about Vietnam’s history, but you actually put the link in the introduction - and I think that’s much better. At first I was alarmed by the re-arranging of the photos, because I was trying to align photos with text, but because you “trimmed the fat” and inserted the lists into those div html boxes (never heard of it but thanks!) I realized that the “galleries” look much neater. And I am very, very grateful that you added info about Fanny and a couple of other things I knew nothing about. Overall, I’m delighted and very grateful for what you’ve done. Thank you very much!!! Vigartjam (talk) 01:08, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

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GERTUDE HALL
Hello Stevensaylor I hope I'm on the right page here! It looks as though you are the creator of the page for Gertrude Hall, author, poet, translator. If so may I congratulate you on it. It is a lucid and scholarly piece of work, which fills a gap in Wikipedia, which I have long perceived. Foiled circuitous wanderer (talk) 10:10, 2 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for the good words. I discovered Gertrude Hall only recently, when at an auction site I spotted the Oliver Herford poster for Foam of the Sea and thought, "A fantasy writer from the 1890s whom I've never heard of?" I tracked down that book and Far from To-day at HathiTrust, and was astonished by her stories. "Who the heck was this Gertude Hall?" I thought, heading for wikipedia where I found very little, and felt compelled to rectify the lack. These days I mostly do this sort of research/writing on certain French Academic painters of the 1800s who catch my fancy and whose work I collect in a small way. Onward! Stevensaylor (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

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Sourcing your edits
Hi, Stevensaylor, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. I've undone your changes to Gay bathhouse, Finnish art, and Finland because they lacked a source. You're a long-time editor here, and you already know about the requirements of WP:Verifiability, so I won't belabor the point; just please follow the policy going forward, and if you've missed any sourcing in any of your edits before those three, please take a moment to update the articles concerned. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:22, 18 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Duly noted. Onward! Stevensaylor (talk) 16:58, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

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June 2024
Hello, I'm Gor1995. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Additionally, that information does not seem relevant enough to be included in a Featured Article — Gor1995 &#119070; 17:13, 10 June 2024 (UTC)