User talk:Stretchrunner II

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Broadway Stakes (NYB) moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Broadway Stakes (NYB), is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.  Onel 5969  TT me 17:56, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Broadway Stakes (NYB)


The article Broadway Stakes (NYB) has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "The article is about an event that fails WP:GNG for the WikiProject Horse racing. Under project guidelines the event should be at a minimum be graded. This event is a non-graded restricted race which lacks notability."

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion.

Nomination of Broadway Stakes (NYB) for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Broadway Stakes (NYB), to which you have significantly contributed, is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or if it should be deleted.

The discussion will take place at Articles for deletion/Broadway Stakes (NYB) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

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Not helping
Stretchrunner, your decision to post long lists of many horse race articles at the project talk page and then to unilaterally declare that they all need deletion is not helpful to the issues discussed. If we had known the article above was at AfD, we all could have discussed the SNG (which I wrote with input from the project) there. We can certainly have a conversation at the project over whether consensus has changed, but please don't go in there with a Bazooka. Your contributions are often very helpful, and your research is top notch, but you might want to think about where we do draw the line and ask the group before creating widespread drama, not after, OK? Also, the copyright issue is a big red flag and is not something the project can address at all. In fact, it can lead to a WP:CCI and mass deletion of articles, which is a mess I really don't want to land on the project. Thanks. Montanabw (talk) 15:55, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Response: - Re your above message titled "Not Helping": First though, you had earned my respect which was certainly added to with the comment on the Luis Saez matter because you had understood the need for knowledge and factuality and asked for help on "jockeys" from knowledgeable editors. We editors could all use more thinking like that.

And, second re length of my comments. I might suggest that to be relative, all one needs do is look at the existence, content and the AfD discussion growth on the Project's talk page on Hot Rod Charlie. Also in thatcase, the outcome vis-a-vis the history of articles like Luis Saez likely might seem rather incongruous to some.

Note too, the comments on my Horse races – Notability. Not a single person dealt with the issue of the Broadway Stakes (NYB) deletion that User Brudder Andrusha set as the standard for such deletions. Why not? Isn't input and assistance what this Talk page is about. Your comments on this were of good help and with quality that one expects from you based on your editing record. However, I was surprised and disappointed to see that you did not provide your position on the deletion of the Broadway Stakes (NYB) relative to your work creating notability standards. The Broadway Stakes (NYB) is at the heart of the issue and the sole basis for the discussion. Who would ever want to create another race article if it can be deleted by a whim, especially an obfuscated whim. To repeat, the Broadway Stakes (NYB) triggered everything and does affect a great many other races with the exact same status. User Brudder Andrusha now says "there needs to be a project wide discussion of our path forward after what was deleted (Broadway Stakes (NYB). Really? Why didn't User Brudder Andrusha do it before they orchestrated the deletion? We cannot create a discussion each time an editor wants to do a new article for a horse race. Restricted means Restricted, not Graded. We needed affirmation or clarification up front which should have been done at the time I posted here that the Broadway Stakes (NYB) was up for deletion. At User talk:Jlvsclrk you said: "it appears that no one is actually reading the SNG on notability". - User:Brudder Andrusha must have.

I will post details at length when necessary and this one for you is the utmost of importance. Fact, when I speak it's always on an important subject, researched and relative with info levels in an attempt to avoid multiple questions/statements which in the past has often led to multiple unnecessary discussions. Remember, at Wikipedia nobody is obliged to read any postings, short or long.

Beginning early in my working life I was taught to make notes (paper in those days) immediately after a meeting or on any occurrence relative to our potential corporate needs/protection then filing them for easy recall. (A la Jim Comey vs. Trump) With the digital age it became really easy and I continuously make notes when I read something at Wikipedia and elsewhere. Here I do it for the sheer pleasure of learning. 99% of the time my T'bred research to create a new Wikipedia article takes a very long time to do because along the way I always, and repeatedy, come across some other noteworthy/interesting person, horse, race or track etc. and I stop to copy and create files for all of them for use later on in articles at Wikipedia horse racing or for simple referencing. I currently have more than 16,000 WORD & PDF horse racing files on my computer.

1 - As part of your comments about the Broadway Stakes (NYB) on my Talk page you said these two things: -
 * "If we had known the article above was at AfD, we all could have discussed the SNG (which I wrote with input from the project) there" AND "then to unilaterally declare that they all need deletion"


 * "Known about the article?" – Info was posted by me to the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Horse page on 20:38, 1 June 2021 and was there for twelve (12) days until the article was deleted. It was posted with the Section heading:
 * "For information purposes: I posted the following to the User talk:Onel5969"
 * I opened it with the exact info User Brudder Andrusha made as a statement of fact saying that this article was put up for deletion by WikiProject Horse racing member User:Brudder Andrusha who declared the following as the reason:
 * The article is about an event that fails WP:GNG for the Wikipedia:WikiWikiProject Horse racing. Under project guidelines the event should be at a minimum be graded. This event is a non-graded restricted race which lacks notability. (talk) 11:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
 * As well, User:Brudder Andrusha then responded to that posting with the following post:
 * "Note: This discussion has been included in the Articles for deletion/Broadway Stakes (NYB). Brudder Andrusha (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)" and then User:Brudder Andrusha who had previously created and edited articles on Restricted races, added this which was posted two days after I had commented on my plans to User Jlvsclrk for dealing with it:
 * "Update: - Article was deleted. This brings up the question why there is a category of Category:Restricted stakes races in the United States which now has one less entry at 30, and whether the events in this category would qualify under WP:NHORSERACING. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2021 (UTC)"


 * The G3 Guideline was declared by Project member/user Brudder Andrusha as being a Wikipedia guideline in force and being acted upon under said policy to delete the Broadway Stakes (NYB) article. And, during the seven (7) day assessment period there was no contestation by any Project member or any other Wikipedia user and as I stated it was done through the "due process" Wikipedia stipulates for article deletions with an apparent quorum validating the requested deletion. Once policy has been implemented there is nothing further to discuss; editors are not required to get approval in advance for every edit they do when it is declared and accepted as existing policy. If someone doesn't like any Wikipedia policy they can create a discussion to review it but that has zero to do with this policy-required "Fait accompli" deletion arranged by User Brudder Andrusha.


 * Not only had I already posted that Section to the Project Talk page BEFORE the article was deleted, in my subsequent information that you read I most importantly reminded members/readers in my first paragraph that:
 * "I respect the opinions of the WikiProject Horse racing members who did not object to the deletion of the Broadway Stakes (NYB) as the members were adhering to the WikiProject guidelines."


 * If no one objects to a deletion declared as based on policy, it most certainly is not acting "Unilaterally". - BTW: I would be careful using the word "unilateral" as people could view it as disparaging in such a circumstance.

2 – Now, the most difficult part of your message to deal with. On My Talk page you stated:
 * "The main reason the Bway stakes article was deleted was because you had a copyright violation." 15:55, 16 June 2021 (UTC) and on User:Jlvsclrk's Talk page you repeated this absolute falsehood. 19:15, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

To back up your claim, and not leave your false accusation against me just hanging out there, please immediately provide me with the missing source you relied upon for your accusation of Copyright violation and I will deal with it appropriately in full compliance of Wikipedia policy.

Today I read some of your User Page for the first time. As an attorney you know better than to assert such a slanderous accusation in public print without providing absolute verification for it. I would expect that you checked all the info on the Articles for deletion/Broadway Stakes (NYB) files. However, once the Broadway Stakes (NYB) article was deleted on June 12th you could not have checked the Revision history with its original and successive edits. So, where did it come from? I of course have my original work but also understand a deleted article can be fully recovered and if necessary I will request that. This unfounded accusation was then followed by what I call a demeaning lecture on Copyright law to someone you know nothing about and on a topic, again with no accompanying proof. You then added to your accusation saying I was creating widespread drama. Again not true. When the forum for discussion is open to anyone on the planet to ask a question or seek clarification, quoting facts is not creating widespread drama. At Wikipedia one cannot dictate, only suggest. I did just that in an attempt to get cooperation out of the 66 WikiProject Horse racing members to fulfill an obligation made necessary under Wikipedia policy. Given the ruling on deletion, help is essential due to the very large volume of articles involved. That effort would fairly quickly save other Wikipedians from wasting their time and energy to update or add to articles that are going to be deleted by User Brudder Andrusha or other editors here.

Just so you know, I'm a retired financier and business owner and, despite difficult health issues, not yet too stupid, nor reckless. And, I married a lawyer from a very prestigious internationsal firm who later joined a U.S. fortune 500 company as their in-house attorney where part of the duties required her to have expertise in copyright law. Like America's most gracious and beloved Senator, I too was born in Canada with a mother who was an American citizen. I stayed in Canada, unlike the beloved Senator who had departed at an early age for the U.S. where he would chose to exercise his legal right to American citizenship. Now, don't get me started on my educated and very successful children; there isn't enough memory in my XPS to hold it all.

Montanabw, without proof to support your Copyright violation accusation you will need to post a correction and apology on my and User:Jlvsclrk's talk page as well as with that of anyone else you may have communicated with either through Wikipedia means of any other method of communication.

Thank you.

I’m not going to respond to your comments above. I’m saying above your approach isn’t helping, I’m saying that there was a copyright concern raised—by someone else. And now I’m saying that you just doubled down with the same behavior by this tl;dr rant above and the post on my talkpage. I have neither the time, interest or energy to respond to this point by point, and I’m not going to apologize for cautioning you about your approach. If I had an “accusation,” I’d have filed a CCI. I was just warning you to be careful about copyright. So chill out and cool your jets. Montanabw (talk) 20:36, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of NWT Sport Hall of Fame


The article NWT Sport Hall of Fame has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: '''I doubt whether this article is notable enough. There are many Sports Halls of Fame, big and small (like the Southern California Jewish Hall of Fame featuring Max Fried), but not all those would meet ORG - like this one.

This page could well be failing ORGIND, as the only sources of this page (NWT) are the website of the HoF itself, and a Google search for it does not turn up many more sources than is already cited here. Although there is a Northern News Services article on him, that article focusses more on its inductee, Floyd Daniels, and his achievements, rather than the HoF itself. I have waited for a bit so that the author could improve this page if need be, but at this stage I would think PROD is the right place. Please feel free to remove this template and/or improve this article.'''

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. NotReallySoroka (talk) (formerly DePlume) 20:23, 5 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I have deleted the words “like the... Max Fried” in the first paragraph of my PROD reasoning. NotReallySoroka (talk) (formerly DePlume) 00:41, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

December 2021
Hello, I'm Cassiopeia. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Produce Stakes (USA), but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you.  Cassiopeia  talk  01:57, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Category:NWT Sport Hall of Fame inductees has been nominated for deletion
Category:NWT Sport Hall of Fame inductees has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 22:16, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

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