User talk:Stuj24

September 2009
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to make constructive contributions to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to J boat, did not appear to be constructive and has been automatically reverted by ClueBot. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you believe there has been a mistake and would like to report a false positive, please report it here and then remove this warning from your talk page. If your edit was not vandalism, please feel free to make your edit again after reporting it. The following is the log entry regarding this warning: J boat was changed by Stuj24 (u) (t) redirecting article to non-existant page on 2009-09-03T21:24:37+00:00. Thank you. ClueBot (talk) 21:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

J/Boat articles
Thanks for your additions to the J/Boat articles. Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a vehicle for advertising or self-promotion. Wikipedia has a guideline of avoiding advertisements which masquerade as articles: WP:ARTSPAM. Please continue to add your knowledge of J/Boats to Wikipedia, but try to do it in a way that is neutral and can be supported through citations. If you have further questions you may want to read the policies on Neutral Point of view and reliable sources. Regards  &mdash;dgies tc 03:04, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, understood. I know it's an encyclopedia. As such, it is of paramount importance to add the "correct" history of any business or individual or entity that has influenced the course of yachting and boating history.  I read your article/posting on the J/105 and it was incorrect, so I corrected it.  It also led me to discover that Wikipedia is remarkably inconsistent, and incorrect, on a number of other J/Boats articles and pages.  As a result, it's important as a "public" encyclopedia to ensure there is COMPLETE ACCURACY for any element of history that is posted on Wikipedia.  I note that it's an issue for many, many other sections of Wikipedia, in general.  Furthermore, I know that Wikipedia is "not a vehicle for advertising or self-promotion".  If it were, you'd be getting announcements of NEW products and/or products less than one year old.  ;-)  That would diminish Wikipedia's integrity somewhat significantly.


 * So, I've also had this debate, as a History and Political Science Major with my former Professor (now President) of TUFTS UNIVERSITY where I graduated from in 1980....here's the questions- "when does history start"?? Does it start minutes, hours, weeks, months, years, decades after the event took place???"  Does Wikipedia define "history"??  No, it does not.  Nevertheless, I'm curious to what your answer is or, in fact, how Wikipedia might define it globally for everyone else??


 * Thanks, most respectfully,


 * Stuart Johnstone

File:J24ragtime.jpg
You state that The copyright holder of this work allows anyone to use it for any purpose including unrestricted redistribution, commercial use, and modification., yet it appears to come from the J-Boats web site which asserts, © Copyright 2009, J/Boats, Inc. - All Rights Reserved. Unless you can provide clear evidence that the image really is not covered by copyright I'm afraid it will have to be deleted. See, for example Wikipedia:Non-free content for more details. -- RoySmith (talk) 01:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi "RoySmith"- who are you?? You do not exist on Wikipedia or WikiMedia. So, by what rights or authorization are you coming from? Please identify yourself. Also, if you can read the King's English, you'd also note that the posting (and my commentary on the image) would show that the J24ragtime.jpg photo is a picture of my Uncle Rodney Johnstone; that I am Chairman of J/Boats Inc; that we own the photo; that we own the company; that we provided the authorization to publish it FREELY. Need we say more??

If you have ANY questions, you can reach me at: stuj24@hotmail.com or at editor@jboats.com (note- we own the copyright and registered trademark of J/, J and a number, J/boats for ANY product worldwide- so ANY posting of J/Boats, as a matter of fact, has to have our authorization.  I hope you understand.

Regards, Stuart Johnstone J/Boats Inc.

Possibly unfree File:J24ragtime.jpg
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:J24ragtime.jpg, has been listed at Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.

Speedy deletion nomination of J-Boats
A tag has been placed on J-Boats requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a blatant copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words.

If the external website belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text — which means allowing other people to modify it — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Donating copyrighted materials. If you are not the owner of the external website but have permission from that owner, see Requesting copyright permission. You might want to look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Fabrictramp |  talk to me  17:58, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "FrabricTramp- thanks for your notes. I understand the policies and have read them.  We are more than happy to "donate copyrighted materials" in the interests of being accurate, unbiased and neutral.  The fact that a 300 page book that has been written on the "history" of J/Boats and sold on Amazon.com and others is indicative of the fact that "notable" history has taken place.  In terms of biasness, before anyone jumps to "speedy deletion", which is tantamount to being biased as far as I'm concerned, means that you have looked at this page without taking into consideration any of the sources and purpose in mind to bring the "encyclopedic knowledge" one might have to the fore to better describe significant developments in the course of history in the sport and activity of sailing.


 * Finally, FabricTramp, like the question I posed to Mr. Smith-- WHO are you?? Please identify yourself and WHY would you have as much, more, or less knowledge than anyone else on this subject matter??  By what rights do you assert to have "speedy deletion" without having any knowledge of sailboats, the industry or who the players have been in the past 50 years??  Also, IF you happen to read my comments on the other images in WikiMedia you will notice that I've made every attempt to be accurate and unbiased.  If there are phrases or comments that appears to be otherwise, then make SPECIFIC recommendations and changes based on YOUR encyclopedic knowledge of the sailing industry and activity and recreation known as "sailing".  I would LOVE to know if you have such knowledge and can speak with any degree of authority on the subject.


 * Thank you,
 * Stuart Johnstone

October 2009
If you are affiliated with some of the people, places or things you have written about, you may have a conflict of interest. In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid or exercise great caution when:
 * 1) editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with;
 * 2) participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors; and
 * 3) linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Spam).

Please familiarize yourself with relevant policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies.

For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. For more details about what, exactly, constitutes a conflict of interest, please see our conflict of interest guidelines. Fabrictramp |  talk to me  18:05, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * FabricTramp-- interesting definitions by the way--- by that definition, everyone on the planet is "conflicted"-- simply being a participant or owner or industry participant would make you conflicted. Has anyone ever really understood that??  I wonder.
 * Respectfully,
 * Stuart Johnstone

Some advice
I've stumbled across your series of articles, and I thought I'd give you a bit of advice as I try to clean them up.

First, take a few minutes to carefully read WP:COI. Your articles definitely sound like advertisements (understandable -- you're proud of your boats and it shows), so you're having trouble writing about them in an unbiased manner. If you aren't able to write about them in an unbiased manner, it's better to leave that to someone else. Even if you can write without bias, given your close connection with the company, many Wikipedians will see bias even when it's not there, so it still might be better to leave that to someone else.


 * STUART>> understood, which is why it needs to be written in the first place...the contribution has to take place first so that it may then be modified/ updated. Does it not??  It seems there's a bit of the "cart before the horse" scenario here.  As a history/ political science major I can see the pros/cons/neutral ground.  My expectation is that contributors will "see" the information and make thoughtful, appropriate corrections and/or updates to add to the "history".

Also read WP:BETTER to get an idea of what needs to be in each article. Articles need to have a uniform structure and they need references. The pictures should be included as thumbnails that the user can click on to enlarge; not only does that make the picture not overwhelm the article text, but for those on slow connections it allows them to load the page in a reasonable amount of time.


 * STUART>> yes, I know and have been building those, too. Yet, "no one" could see what I was writing on Wikipedia when other editors/admins were making comments. Again, see my note above- can't write the article and space out the images without first uploading them.  BUT, then someone like yourself says "it's not done" and/or "image doesn't qualify".  So, where does the circle end??  One Wikipedian dropped me a private note and said "this is VERY typical"....so, I forge on ahead and have already been modifying/ updating pages to appear more unbiased and, most importantly, include the References/ Bibliography and External Links to other biased/unbiased sources of information (e.g. information in and of itself is "always biased"-- it's all in the eyes of the beholder.  And, having read your guidelines I can see they are as imperfect as anything else I've ever read for "rules of conduct" or "engagement"--e.g. "Robert's Rules of Order", to name one.

It looks like you are trying to write a separate article for each year of your company's history. Unless that individual year is notable (which has a very specific definition here -- read the link), it shouldn't have its own article. Readers who are interested in that much detail will click through to your website. Perhaps a better approach is one article on the company and one article each on any individual models that can show notability.


 * STUART>> thanks. I started down that path and changed it.  For J/Boats, each year there were significant events in both economic, financial and industry events that impacted the sport/ recreation of sailing worldwide...and the company was at the forefront of redefining the industry.  If you don't believe me, then go to AMAZON.com and get the book on "J/BOATS:Sailing To Success" by Anthony Dalton, published in November 2005.  Here are some reviews:


 * Editorial Reviews


 * Latitudes & Attitudes March/April 2006 (circ.: 55,000)
 * “It’s an interesting read, illustrated with beautiful photography of J/Boats doing what they do so well, racing and cruising.”


 * Good Old Boat Newsletter, February 2006 (circ. unavailable)
 * “Anthony Dalton has captured the enterprising spirit behind the success of J/Boats. This book will appeal to everyone with an interest in fine sailboats and the companies behind them.”


 * Great Lakes Boating, February 2006 (circ.: 32,350)
 * “If you are a devoted fan of the J/Boat, in all its many designs and personalities, then this tribute to Johnstones’ and their passion for sailing just might be the perfect addition to your bookshelf.”


 * Product Description
 * In 1975 Rod Johnstone finally decided to build the boat he’d been planning since completing design correspondence school 10 years earlier. Thirty years later, the J/24, the boat based on that first garage-built vessel is the most popular recreational offshore keelboat in the world. The story of J/Boats’ success, as inspiring as it is unlikely, unfolds for the first time in this illustrated history, which tells how Rod and his brother Bob turned one homebuilt boat and a $20,000 investment into the company that dominates the performance-oriented sailboat market today.


 * J/Boats: Sailing to Success follows the company from its first days to the ascension of a second generation of Johnstones. With detailed history, anecdotes, and a wealth of photographs, the book brings to life the colorful personalities, the design revolutions, and, of course, all the fabulous racer/cruiser models that have carried J/Boats to triumph.

Hope that helps.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  15:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Stuart -- Fabrictramp did a pretty good job explaining the issues above, but I guess I owe you an answer to your earlier "who are you?" question. The short answer is that I'm just another Wikipedia editor.  This is a pretty egalitarian organization; I don't have any more rights or authority than you do to edit articles.  I also happen to own J/24 hull #649, but that's doesn't give me any more or less authority than anybody else.  I'm also the editor who started the J/24 article, five and a half years ago, with this edit.  That also gives me no more or less authority than anybody else to determine how the article evolves.  I'm also a Wikipedia administrator, which gives me a few administrative abilities most users don't have, but likewise gives me no more authority than any other editor when it comes to determining content.


 * There are several distinct issues here. First is the issue of copyright.  Wikipedia is pretty fanatical about making sure that we don't violate anybody else's copyright.  I am happy that you are willing to release these photographs into the public domain; these are great images and will be valuable additions to the Wikimedia Commons image collection.  But, in order to make sure that we really do have the rights to use the images we have, there is a process which has been developed to legally transfer those rights.  This process is detailed at Donating copyrighted materials.  I know it's a pain, but you need to go through the process to ensure that the copyrights are properly transferred.  Doing so not only legally protects Wikipedia, but also helps us to make sure that your rights are protected.  Consider that anybody can just come along, create a user with the name "Stuj24", and claim to be giving away the intellectual property of J-Boats.  Surely we have a legal and moral responsibility to protect your property by verifying the authenticity of your statements and your authority to make them, no?  The copyright donation process is designed to do just that.


 * Independent of the copyright issue, is the question of what types of articles are appropriate for Wikipedia. Even after the copyright issues are resolved, you should be aware that Wikipedia has policies regarding what is appropriate and what is not.  Many of these policies were mentioned above, but for reference, here's the links to a few of them:  Notability, Conflict of interest, and Neutral point of view.  I encourage you to read these, to assist you in continuing to contribute to Wikipedia.  -- RoySmith (talk) 23:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * STUART>> Thanks Roysmith. Most appreciated.  I am happy to hear you're the proud owner of a J/24...that's cool.  And, having read your article I was most interested in addressing some of the "facts" and simply wanted to ensure they were accurate.  Yes, I am going down that path of editing steadily without getting too sidetracked and, perhaps most importantly, ensure that "notabilitiy" and "neutral point of view" are addressed appropriately.  Please see my comments above to FabricTramp.  Points all very well taken.  So, will get down the path of Donating copyrighted materials.  Thank you.  Stuart

Speedy deletion nomination of J-Boats
A tag has been placed on J-Boats requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an article with no content whatsoever, or whose contents consist only of external links, a "See also" section, book references, category tags, template tags, interwiki links, a rephrasing of the title, or an attempt to contact the subject of the article. Please see Wikipedia:Stub for our minimum information standards for short articles. Also please note that articles must be on notable subjects and should provide references to reliable sources that verify their content. You may wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. Tim1357 (talk) 01:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of J-Boats/2007
A tag has been placed on J-Boats/2007 requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G12 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be a blatant copyright infringement. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material, and as a consequence, your addition will most likely be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences. This part is crucial: say it in your own words.

If the external website belongs to you, and you want to allow Wikipedia to use the text — which means allowing other people to modify it — then you must verify that externally by one of the processes explained at Donating copyrighted materials. If you are not the owner of the external website but have permission from that owner, see Requesting copyright permission. You might want to look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines for more details, or ask a question here.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ~Super Hamster  Talk Contribs 01:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Stuj24/references
Thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and the page that you created has been or soon will be deleted. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you.  ttonyb (talk) 02:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)