User talk:Stvlnd

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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! I dream of horses (talk) (contribs) Remember to &#123;&#123;ping&#125;&#125; me after replying off my talk page 04:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Source for Old Norse a/e/o weak vowels
In response to your revert: I read about it here. I've been working on user page project located here (still unfinished) to chart the changes in vowels over the centuries in accordance to the sources I've found. Basically, the more recently-drafted Standard Normalization of Old Norse doesn't quite match what the First Grammatical Treatise described. What is transliterated i was when stressed, but  when unstressed. Norse only had the three unstressed short vowels, a/i/u, but they were pronounced until a significant vowel realignment soon after the First Grammatical Treatise, described in that reference I linked. The shifts were allophonic free variation at first, but cemented through additional mergers. Low vowels no longer distinguished by backness, so: None of the close-mid or open-mid vowels had other mid vowels of the same backness to oppose them anymore, so: Later in the thirteenth century, ǫ and ø would almost completely merge into a common vowel that would later be written ö (though gø and kø into gjö and kjö). But this overall lowering of open-mid vowels had a different effect on the short close vowels, lowering them to near-close vowels, and the unstressed versions of e and o split from their stressed counterparts, raising to near-close. Chain shifts being what they are, these didn't happen all at once, and it took a bit of time for them to become completely phonemicized. Standard Normalization of Old Norse was drafted to be able to render all the phonemes in the First Grammatical Treatise, but was still drafted centuries after it was written and was influenced by much more recent linguistic conventions, so spellings of i/u for Old Norse unstressed short vowels is an anachronism. But as long as you know which Old Norse short vowels were stressed or unstressed, the First Grammatical Treatise phonemes for i and u can be easily inferred. - Gilgamesh (talk) 02:07, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Short stressed e →  ← short ę
 * Short stressed and unstressed a → non-palatalizing, or more likely
 * Short ǫ → non-palatalizing, or more likely
 * Short stressed o →
 * Short ǫ → non-palatalizing, or more likely
 * Short ø → palatalizing
 * Short i →  ← short unstressed e
 * Short y →
 * Short u →  ← short unstressed o
 * Interesting research; thank you for corroborating your edit. There are a lot of "armchair experts" on Wikipedia with strange misconceptions, so I'm just wary of changes such as these. (Though I feel like I need to acknowledge the irony that I am also a bit of an "armchair expert" on subjects like this.) Anyway, I won't stand in your way of editing this pronunciation anymore, as it seems well sourced.
 * Thank you for your consideration. Also interestingly, we can source that this particular vowel was, then became , but has never actually been . - Gilgamesh (talk) 14:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, the phoneme is still [ɪ] in modern Icelandic. Interesting that it was never [i] though. Stvlnd (talk) 00:19, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, considering the phoneme space for short unstressed vowels was so limited to just three sounds, it's conceivable that unstressed i could have allophonically been realized as without ambiguity, but its conventional First Grammatical Treatise value was .  These are a kind of vowel reduction, you understand, and some languages with reduced vowels can still distinguish them apart, but allowing for a wider range of free variation than for corresponding tense vowels.  That's probably why  and  went their separate ways in later Old Icelandic&mdash;because the short stressed vowels and short unstressed vowels operated under different phonetic subsystems.  As an analogy, compare the differing pronunciations of the English word less  and the English unstressed suffix -less, which were originally notionally the same morpheme. - Gilgamesh (talk) 09:05, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

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