User talk:Subramanian/2005

user Subramanian

Archives up to Dec 31st 2005

Raj talk
No problem, Subramanian Glad to see you that we have the same interests. Glad to see you contributing as well! Raj2004 17:22, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC) Thanks for the corrections to Aum Namah Sivaya. If we can find someone who can write an article on Nayanar saints, that would be helpful. A good reference would be http://www.dlshq.org/download/nayanar.htm I don't feel knowledgable enough.

Raj2004 12:45, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) Subramanian, I am not asking you to write the article. If you can, that would be great. As I said before, I don't have enough knowledge. Thanks for the compliment. Raj2004 18:48, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC) Subramanian, Happy New Year. Thanks for your edits to Saivism. I have written an article on Nayanars, the great saint Kanapa and the famed Kalahasti temple. Enjoy reading! Raj2004 23:46, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No problem, Subramanian Happy New Year. Hope you had no family members or friends affected by the tsnumami. Thanks for the info on Elephant Pass. I am looking forward to getting a copy of the book. Thanks for the clarification on Ishta Deva. Raj2004 13:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

reason i took off hinduism category
the reason I took off the hinduism category was because it was already in a Hindu sub category. I usually try to insert the hindu template but forgot. When there's a hindu sub category, I figure why put the Hinduism category? I thought it was redundant. --Dangerous-Boy

changed category
I put the topic in hindu dieties and added the hinduism category altough I don't see the point of adding hinduism since it's already in a hinduism sub-category.--Dangerous-Boy

&#346;iva
Thank you for the note on my talk page. I just do my best to help where I can, and its nice to know my efforts are appreciated. Thryduulf 10:07, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Siva Linga
Subramanian, it's been a while since we last spoke. I agree with you with there are people in wikipedia who try to denigrate Hinduism and try to present an one sided view. For example, I made extensive changes to the linga article. Here are some of them: "According to Swami Sivananda, although the Agamas do not derive their authority from the Vedas, they are are not antagonistic to them but are all Vedic in spirit and character and are hence authoritative. According to rules of interpretation in Hinduism held by many religious scholars, anything that contradicts the Vedas or is inconsistent with its spirit is not deemed authoritative or is treated as secondary. Accordingly, according to this interpretation, the Puranic and Tantric views, are subordinate to the Vedas and the Agamas which are vedic in spirit. Hence, such views are secondary and are not deemed as authoritative by many religious scholars. With this point of view, then the view of the linga as a phallic symbol does not carry much weight.

Accordingly, many traditional Hindu scholars simply explain the Siva Linga to be an abstract symbol of God. Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami explains in the lexicon section of his book, Dancing with Siva, that "Sivalinga is the most prevalent icon of Siva, found in virtually all Siva temples. It is a rounded, elliptical, aniconic image, usually set on a circular base, or pitha. The Sivalinga is the simplest and most ancient symbol of Siva, especially of Parasiva, God beyond all forms and qualities. The pitha represents Parashakti, the manifesting power of God. Lingas are usually of stone (either carved or naturally existing, svayambhu, such as shaped by a swift-flowing river), but may also be of metal, precious gems, crystal, wood, earth or transitory materials such as ice. According to the Karana Agama (6), a transitory Sivalinga may be made of 12 different materials: sand, rice, cooked food, river clay, cow dung, butter, rudraksha seeds, ashes, sandalwood, dharba grass, a flower garland or molasses."

As Shri K. Thirugna Sambantha, in his excellent web site of Saivism, [1] (http://www.geocities.com/shivaperuman/main.html), explains it, the Siva linga is the ruparupa aspect because it is not any manifested form of Siva, nor is it formless, because the linga is a concrete piece of stone, which is an emblem of God. Thus, it is intermediate between the formless Absolute, Parasiva, which is beyond the sensory perception of man and manifest forms of Siva. Siva manifests Himself in form for the grace of the embodied human devotee."

I find some of the comments posted as insulting. One can then argue any religious symbol is a phallic symbol. Swami Sivananda explained the siva linga nicely in this site, http://www.dlshq.org/download/hinduismbk.htm#_VPID_110

Raj2004

Thanks, Subramanian for your comments. There are lot of people who are unaware of different things. For example, in the Vishnu article, they said the meaning of the Lord's name was unknown. Vishnu always meant All pervading. I find there is a lot of ignorance. Raj2004 09:08, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Just curious, Subramnian, are there many Hindus in Brazil? Are there many Indian Hindus in Brazil?

Raj2004 14:51, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I had some free time and edited some of the Hinduism article. Please take a look.

Raj2004 17:08, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Subramanian I am doing fine and hope the same with you. I respectly think my statement should be put in as you said yourself that Hinduism is not a proselytistic religion. The fact that satguru and ISKCON introduced conversion programs does not mean that it is historically part of Hinduism. I just reporting a neutral detached fact and am in no way disrespectful. By removing the statement, you may give a misapprehnsion about why Hinduism does not allow for conversion.

I highly respect Sivaya Subramuniyaswami and quote him extensively in my articles in Saivism but I am just reporting a fact. He was a great scholar and did much to eradicate Western bias against Hinduism.

Hinduism, especially Smarta Hinduism, believes all paths to God, are legitimate and hence as you correcly point out, does not prostelsize. Hence, historically, Hinduism did not focus on conversion. I think many times people, i.e. in Bali, Indonesia " converted" to Hinduism by simply accepting the beliefs. Conversion seems to reflect a Christian/Islamic bias as those religions require formal conversion before being converted to a religion.

Raj2004 00:14, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I can relate to that. I am of Indian origin but was born in United States of Hindu parents. I have been to southern India many times and my knowledge of Hinduism is far superior to the average Hindu born in India. Sometimes people have sterotypes of American Desis and think they know less. One of my favorite south Indian temples is located near Mangalore It is the famous Siva temple of Dharmastala. The Siva Linga is made of gold! http://www.mangalore.com/documents/dharmasthala.html http://www.templenet.com/Karnataka/dharma.html

It is Hinduism's tolerance at its best. The temple administration is run by a Jain family and run by Madhva priests.

Raj2004 00:53, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

rewriting hinduism
had a look at your article at talk:hinduism/temp, what's wrong with my intro on the "offical" hinduism page?

Hinduism in Brazil
Why don't you write a Hinduism in Brazil article? --Dangerous-Boy
 * Because it would be an autobiography :) Subramanian talk

Future plans
Thanks for the comment. I thought know one really cared but in the Gita it says do not expect the fruits from your actions.

I was thinking of merging Early Hinduism and Modern Hinduism into History of Hinduism but no one seemed to comment on the idea. The History of Buddhism article is really nice and I'd like to make Hindu version of it. I'd also like make the *WikiProject Hinduism more active and useful. Maybe oneday start a Hinduism Portal. I also think the Hinduism page footer needs to be simplier but no one can seem to come to a concesus on it.--Dangerous-Boy

Can you turn the sidebar into a page footer instead? --Dangerous-Boy

you could keep the sidebar and make a footer version as well. The people could choose which one they wanted to use. --Dangerous-Boy

are there any particular ones that you want to keep? --Dangerous-Boy

Done with organizing the links.--Dangerous-Boy

Hinduism
Hey there! Thanks for considering me in the Hinduism fix-up. I've been out of this for over a year, but I think I may start editing again, though less obsessively than before. I was horrified at some of the changes I encountered in the Hinduism change... primarily that of the 'Smartist' thing. Indeed, whoever made those edits has redefined Smartism and conflated it with Vedanta, Yoga, certain Tantric and Bhakti schools, and ignored everything else. Also, the old-style categorization of Hinduism according to Shavaite, Vaishnav, Smartist, and Shakta ignores the many Hindus who consider themselves acolytes of Yoga, Vedanta, and Tantra independent of particular affiliations to any one God. In addition, Smartism has, from what I've read, been primarily associated with Hindus who ascribe to the Vedic and neo-Vedic ritualistic and philosophical religious systems and does not necessarily encompass Vedanta, Yoga, Bhakti, etc. I'll be a little on and off for the next couple of weeks, but I would indeed like to work with you and others on the Hinduism article. Talk to you soon! --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:56, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and as for the original featured article version.... I like the new pictures, and assume they're more straight in terms of having appropriate permissions, though I pretty much got permission for most of the pictures I originally put up. I think we'd have to dig back very deep in the archives, but we can access it. I think it'd be best to contact an administrator-level wikiuser and ask him/her how to do it. Hell, I tried to prove to a friend my involvement in the page and gave up on edit history because it was to tedious a process to go all the way back to my last revision! --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:58, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

No. he's incorrect. Smarta tradition has always been associated with Vedanta! Tantric schools have always been associated primarily with shaktism. Bhakti tradition is integral with all sects. Raj2004 12:07, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem. I have quoted satguru for all denominations so it is correct. The smarta tradition includes all of the great Hindu reformers, Vivekananda, sivananda, Ramakrishna. Raj2004 16:38, 31 July 2005 (UTC) Okay, calm down both of you :) I don´t know who is right, probably both hold bits of the truth from different points of view. I have the same information that Raj does about Bhakti being integral to most. I also agree that the Smarta section, as it is now, is not satisfactory. I´ll research this (I don´t quite trust the internet to to this, I´ll use some Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, Ananda Coomaraswamy, Vivekananda and Hans Zimmer books). We´ll go for compromise. It´s the only way to do it, and a very Hindu way to do it. Subramanian talk 16:01, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Vivekananda was smarta in belief. smarta section seems fine as it is now. Surya is not as informed as he thinks he is. Raj2004 16:40, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I know. He wrote " from what I've read...". You certainly seem to be more knowleadgeable than he is, Raj, but none of us knows it all and I confess I´m surprised by your bluntness... Subramanian talk 16:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Subramanian, I don't know it all either. You have always been kind to me. But sometimes, as I have seen, sometimes surya disagrees vehemently with those who don't hold his belief. see Hinduvta talk where he scolded sam spade, who as you know, is quite supportive of Hinduism.

I am usually not blunt but with him, I am.

Raj2004 16:55, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

satguru said this about smartism:

Smartism: (Sanskrit) Sect based on the secondary scriptures (smriti). The most liberal of the four major Hindu denominations, an ancient Vedic brahminical tradition (ca 700 bce) which from the 9th century onward was guided and deeply influenced by the Advaita Vedanta teachings of the reformist Adi Shankara. Its adherents rely mainly on the classical smriti literature, especially the Itihasas (Ramayana and Mahabharata, the latter of which includes the Bhagavad Gita), Puranas and Dharma Shastras. These are regarded as complementary to and a means to understanding the Vedas. Smartas adhere to Shankara's view that all Gods are but various depictions of Saguna Brahman. Thus, Smartas are avowedly eclectic, worshiping all the Gods and discouraging sectarianism. The Smarta system of worship, called panchayatana puja, reinforces this outlook by including the major Deity of each primary Hindu sect of ancient days: Ganesha, Surya, Vishnu, Siva and Shakti. To encompass a sixth important lineage, Shankara recommended the addition of a sixth Deity, Kumara. Thus he was proclaimed shanmata sthapanacharya, founder of the six-fold system. One among the six is generally chosen as the devotee's preferred Deity, Ishta Devata. For spiritual authority, Smartas look to the regional monasteries established across India by Shankara, and to their pontiffs. These are the headquarters of ten orders of renunciate monks who spread the Advaita Vedanta teachings far and wide. Within Smartism three primary religious approaches are distinguished: ritualistic, devotional and philosophical. See: dashanami, panchayatana puja, Shankara.

from http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/dws/lexicon/s.html


 * I know, friend. I agree. But just calm down.

Surya called those who follow Hinduvta to be akin to Nazis, which I find offensive. some of them have legitimate concerns but some are extreme. to label them nazis is going too far. seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hindutva#Debate:_Hindutva..._nationalist_ideology_a_la_KKK_or_branch_of_Hinduism_a_la_Vedanta Raj2004 16:58, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes! Exactly. Extremism is wrong, wherever it is.

Yes, I critize Hinduvta for some of its extremist views but some of its views are legitimate.

Raj2004 00:02, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

more about smartism: "n 1975, after several years of secluded, spiritual discipline, she was ordained into the Holy Order of Sannyas by her Smarta Sampradaya Guru, His Holiness, Shri Gurudeva, Swami Chidbhavananda of South India. This initiation brought her into the lineage of Shri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and, through him, the great Saint Sankarachariya. In 1976 she founded the ashram of Holy Mountain to uphold the tradition of Shaivite Hinduism.

http://www.hinduism-today.com/archives/1988/03/1988-03-01.shtml This proves that smartism is the advaita tradition!!

Raj2004 00:08, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

The smartism article has been revised. After discussing with Harish, smartas accept only the Vedas as supreme and the vast predominant majority (99%) generally adhere to Advaita philosophy.

Raj2004 10:22, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

thanks
thanks for your kind note Subramanian. I am well aware that Hindu does not equal "Hindutva", and my reactions may be a bit too harsh sometimes because of my past experience with less-than-reasonable editors. But on the whole, I do think the editors of India related topics are doing an excellent job. best regards, dab (&#5839;) 09:29, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Hinduism updated version
hello subramanian,sorry for the lateness of my response, i didn't intend any negative feelings on my last message, i apoligise if i gave that impression. I've had a look at the hinduism page, I was wondering, as you are the leader of the this motley crew! how much further do you plan on expansion of the hinduism article, i was thinking perhaps like the chirstianity article we should have a similar 'series' for hinduism. As really the main hinduism page is meant to be a synopsis, like you have said before. So how much further should we expand the the synoptical article, and post ressurection of the article, should we continue the hinduism series? or are we only going to resuce the main artcle :-). many thanks dosey,

Hi Subramanian, I really don't understand it, but for the past month I've really been busy. However, I have a bit of time now before I Start University. I just posted a message to Sam asking about the sheer length of the hinduism article. Frankly, I feel alseep halfway through the mini lecture on Views of God. It really needs to be simplified. And on another note, I felt that there was a fair bit of reduntant information on the article, really I can't help but to query the logic behind having the caste system infomation on the main article, and there are a few others i could mention. Please could you contant me on your views about this, thanks Dosey 22:56, 24 August 2005 (UTC). (Also have a good JANMASHTAMi)

Template:Hinduism footer small
I have made the template centred, as per you help desk quesiotn. I don't really know much about tables (which is what most templates are), but I used Template:Signals intelligence agencies as a guide. --Commander Keane 11:54, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm glad i could help you Subramanian. I have noticed that you have changed the template a little, how are you trying to improve it, I'm curious, I thought it was ok? --Commander Keane 15:27, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * I have given it another go, but it still doesn't look as good as your html version. I might try to get it as good as your version when I have some spare time.


 * --Commander Keane 16:15, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

WebDSign
thank you very much for your useful pointers about WebDSign posted on my talk page!

Reais, Brazil
Thanks; I had put reals because I figured I'd try to Anglify a bit, but I'll go with the real term. ;) Speaking of which, you're Brazilian, I have a few questions on Brazilian states. :)


 * 1) Some of the articles had been moved around; Amazonas was at "Amazonas State, Brazil". Does this sound proper? I moved it to "Amazonas (Brazilian state)", among others. Which is the more correct local short form?
 * 2) Likewise, the article for the state is currently at "Sao Paolo" (plus the squiggly things over the a ;)), and the article for the city is currently at "Sao Paolo, Sao Paolo". Is this correct Brazilian usage? I know, postal-wise, it would be written "Sao Paolo - SP" or something along those lines.
 * 3) And this leads to my next question - Right now, the city is at "Rio de Janeiro" and the state is at "Rio de Janeiro (state)". Should the city be moved to "Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro"? Is the "city, state" form common in Brazil?
 * 4) And finally - is Brasilia ever mentioned as anything but simply "Brasilia"? Like, is it "Brasilia, DF" along the same lines as America's "Washington, D.C."?

I hope you don't think I'm jumping on you with all these, but I was going over Brazil's states this morning and you being from Brazil was a fortunate occurance :) --Golbez 21:56, August 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for your comments. :) And yeah, I'll change ITN. I dunno what you meant about "wrong either way"; it would be "São Paulo", I just didn't copy/paste the little squiggly a. :) As far as the states, those MIGHT actually be good, if and when we have enough Brazilian cities to matter. Til then, I see no problem with having São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Brasilia as their own articles, without any differentiator. Less minor cities, or those when we have enough, might use it. (The only American city article without a state is New York City, and that should probably be moved to New York, New York. :))


 * Hahahaha, that icon rocks. I shall take it. :D --Golbez 03:38, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * Oooh, haha, fair enough. ;) I'm sure I've misspelled a lot of things along these lines! --Golbez 03:55, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Dharma
Namaskar. I reverted some of your changes re: Dharma page, and wanted to explain my thinking.

The sentence structure says "..in accord with Dharma, proceed quicker towards moksha, nirvana, or liberation - a concept..". As the sentence stands, the word "concept" conveys neutrality, something to be studied, understood, agreed with or disagreed with. However, adding the word "supposedly" to this construction only denigrates the beliefs of Dharmic people.

I was impressed when some time back you said "and intro is supposed to be an intro" and look forward to your contributions on Dharma and Sanatana Dharma. --savyasaachi, 24 Sep 2005

Saw your message. I can relate to your thinking around seeing multiple viewpoints, since I sometimes do the same. However, I am learning that ahimsa must also be coupled with satyagraha. Upholding truth is dharma. Satyameva Jayate, but not automatically. --savyasaachi, 25 Oct 2005

India quick links
Here are some useful links:

Pamri &bull; Talk 05:51, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks a ton for the compliments, although I just do bits & pieces work here. regards, -- Pamri &bull; Talk 14:14, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Brain Teasers/Trivia:
Hi, I'm just posting a friendly notice stating that I have got Brain Teasers/Trivia on my user page that you're welcome to have a go at. Will post new questions one day after they have been answered. Thanks... Spawn Man 04:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Earth Changes
Hi there, I rewrote the Earth Changes article in a slightly more focused manner in order to try and avoid having it deleted. I cut a lot of what was there before, but I think that the article is a bit more encyclopedic now. Please take a look and tell me what you think. --Clay Collier 10:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

India related links
Hi, Have a happy and fun Diwali.

---Pamri &bull; Talk &bull; [ Reply] 14:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Bible and Reincarnation
Om Namo Shivay, Subramanian! I respectfully don't agree with your edit, "Also, some Hindus believe that God's grace can overcome the karma of man and an one-stroke redemption can occur without the need for reincarnation. See the story of Ajamila." I think all Hindus believe in this statement. God is omnipotent and His grace can overcome the karma of man. Lord Siva, also prevented a devotee who by his karma was destined to die at an early age. Please see" A story of Yama's subordinance to Shiva is well-illustrated in the story of Markandeya.

Also, in Devaloka, you removed Kaliasa and put in Sivaloka. Kaliasa and Sivaloka are the same so I don't understand why you removed it.

Raj2004 02:34, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Om Namay Shivay, Subramanian! I understand all your reasons now. I looked at the changes now and now it seemed fine. Adding Kaliasa after Sivaloka is great.

Raj2004 11:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Mário
Thanks very much for your kind words! It's great to hear from someone who knows Mário's work. By the way, I know virtually no Portuguese, so please do correct any mistakes I've made, or point them out on the article talk page. By the way, I'm thinking about writing him in my "real" life (I'm an English professor). Would you mind if I dropped by with a question or two at some point? In particular, if you know of any English translations other than the ones I've listed at the bottom of the article, that would be extremely useful to me. Thanks again! Chick Bowen 05:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Karma e Bíblia e reincarnação
Viva! Agradecido por sua atenção e suas palavras. Não é facil para mim exprimir concepções mentais mais elaboradas em língua inglesa. Foram as minhas últimas edições anonimamente na Wikipedia (ex-User:GalaazV) e creio que levará muitos anos para que uma minoria suficiente de seres humanos possa começar a compreender o mínimo: é a nossa Evolução, que deve seguir seu rumo, de forma lenta mas naturalmente (por si própria, através do esforço de cada indivíduo)! ;). Cumprimentos Cordiais --212.113.164.104 23:57, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Grato uma vez mais por suas palavras de compreensão, expresso meus votos de harmonia e muita felicidade para si, estimado amigo. Inté! :-) --212.113.164.104 00:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Viva estimado Subramanian! Por força da situação decidi, como pôde observar, ainda acrescentar algumas edições ao artigo Karma e artigos relacionados. É o melhor que me é possível nesta altura fazer; minha intenção é que não sejam vistas como pontos definitivos, mas como uma forma de questionar as bases do "padrão" estabelecido, e aceite, para que utilizadores interessados possam indagar mais profundamente. Um Abraço, Marco. --212.113.164.104 19:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC) GalaazV

Karma and Reincarnation
I would be repeating something you already know and do so I'd like to say, keep up the good work!By the way, I am learning Interlingua(not related to Karma/Reincarnation). I was wondering if a Brazillian can read and understand this without learning interlingua. Io nascive in Philippinas. Io crede in Christo sed tamben in reincarnation. Io lege le biblia multo. Io vole studiar portuguesse. Me place cognosce tu. Amicalemente. --Jondel 01:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Es un placer cognoscer le. Nincun necesitate verifica si tu intende iste. Facite interlingua pro intender immediatamente apud grammatico troppo facil. Le interlingua sirve ben pro intercambiar, non? Pote tu replicar in angles o espaniol. Intende io espaniol etiam. Habeva turista parlantes portuguese in le Philippinas (Philippines) sed le philippinos esseva confuse perque nos philippinos esse plus familiares con le parlantes espanioles. Vive tu en Sao Paolo? Tu nascive hindu? O tu devenive a Hindu? Le scientia hindu et le philosophia es plus notables. Multos conceptos modernos del physico (Modern Physics) se trova en cosmologia hindu. Le numeros(1,2,3,...) que nos utilize esse hodie hindu. Reincarnation es intendite naturalmente intra Hindus sed es controversial et polemica intra Chrisitiano que tu jam sape. Chico Xavier semble multo bon. Lege io multos livros de Edgar Cayce. Cognosce Swami Roberto? . Ciao.--Jondel 04:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

It is great to meet someone who has a Christian background. I read a lot of Yoga but wish I could join a more  appropriate group. I meditate on the heart chakra for about 15 to 30 minutes 2 x a day. I read and re -read Autobiography of a Yogi. Awesome!

Ille es magnifico trove un genete que esseva Christiano o cognosce Christiano bona. Le philosophia de Cayce e multo bon sed le prophesia no es perfecto. Cacye tamben teneva conflictos per conceptos de Reincarnation et Christiano. Io lege multo livros de yoga et vole participar en un grupo bona. Io meditate a mi cardia(hear/corazon) per 15 a 30 minutes 2 vices a un dia. Io lege multo vices Autobiography of a Yogi. Gurudeva?? Es que tu esseva antes volveva insertar alcun inseniamento in le articulo de Karma. Io tamben voleva inserter alicun de Sai Baba. Perdone me multo.Io tene un magazine de Hinduism today.--Jondel 03:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Subraimanian. Your article on walk-ins looks good.I'm glad you like the don't feed the trolls sign.I was wondering if I should remove any mention of Sai Baba at the Karma page. Many good gurus get mis-interpreted. Even the prophets were persecuted by their own Jewish people. 'Eyes that can not see...'' Why was that of Gurudev removed. Do you practise Yoga or meditation? Everyone should learn to meditate and adopt a lifestyle in accordance to a higher state of consciousness. Have you read Patanjali regards,--Jondel 09:49, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Arabic numerals
Hi. You might want to contribute to the discussion at Talk:Arabic numerals regarding whether the article should be renamed "Hindu-Arabic numerals". Thanks. deeptrivia (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your valuable input Subramanian! I accept "Arabic numeral" is a very commonly used informal and colloquial expression for the numerals, but is it appropriate in the more formal context of the title of an encyclopedia article, which should be more rigorous in reflecting academic norms? Don't you think Encyclopedia Britannica has a valid reason for having no article titled "Arabic numerals", and titling the article in question "Hindu-Arabic numerals" ? Cheers :) deeptrivia (talk) 01:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Sure, Subramanian! My aim here, however, is not to get the Indian contributions recognized, but just to get an appropriate title to a wikipedia article. I checked out the Wikipedia naming conventions, and the current name satisfies only one of the several criteria for choosing a name (being the most commonly used name.) I'm pretty sure, though that it's not some kind of ego issue with me! deeptrivia (talk) 02:41, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Subramanian. From what I have seen internationally, when the subject of discussion is something banal, "Arabic numeral" is the term used. For example, a form might say: "Please use only Arabic numerals." This accounts for the massive google hits. However, when the discussion is more formal, or is about the numerals themselves, like in a research paper or an encyclopedia, the term almost universally used is "Hindu-Arabic." Thanks a ton! deeptrivia (talk) 03:05, 15 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yup, that's nice! Accuracy is important here, since wikipedia articles get mirrored on dozens of different websites, and virtually become truth statements. Hopefully this change takes place. Obrigado! deeptrivia (talk) 03:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your support Subramanian! The article has been renamed to Hindu-Arabic numerals. Please keep an eye on it since it is prone to frequent vandalism. deeptrivia (talk) 07:09, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems you'll have to recast your vote at Talk:Hindu-Arabic numerals. Thanks.deeptrivia (talk) 19:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Hindu-Arabic numerals
Hi! User:RN moved the article to Arabic numerals despite 28 votes favoring the title "Hindu-Arabic numerals" and only 17 favoring "Arabic numerals." He argues that if we don't count voters with less that 150 (or sth like that) edits, only 56% voters "support changing the title to Hindu-Arabic numerals", while at least 60% support votes are required. However, it was agreed between all parties in the beginning of the vote that the proposal is to move the article to "Arabic numerals" from "Hindu-Arabic numerals." It was also agreed (though I thought it was very unfair) that:


 * Those opposing the move have the advantage that it won't be moved unless there's a 60% majority
 * Those supporting the move have the advantage that the person proposing the move can do the *short* opening statement.
 * For all the rest of the voting procedure both parties are equal. (quoting Francis Schonken from 21:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC))

I would definitely have preferred it the other way round, since I think an opening statement makes a HUGE difference, since many people just read the opening statement and understandably don't bother with the discussion below the votes. The present situation was accepted with the agreement that the article will be moved to "Arabic numerals" only if more than 60% voters favored that title. Thus, only 40% oppose votes were sufficient to retain the title "Hindu-Arabic numerals." In the present situation (with over 60% voters opposing the change), I find the move to "Arabic numerals" ridiculous, besides being completely unjust and unfair. Your comments will be appreciated. deeptrivia (talk) 05:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)