User talk:Sue Gardner/5

Gender gap propaganda
Inspired by Sarah's work on gender issues, I thought I'd make a nice propaganda poster...



—Tom Morris (talk) 20:40, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Laura Zigman
I put her up at DYK. Happy days, Drmies (talk) 04:32, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

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Emo
Nice to see you in the article space. I moved your link. Cheers -- Guerillero &#124;  My Talk  01:35, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Laura Zigman
The DYK project (nominate) 15:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Woohoo! Yay for chicklit! Drmies (talk) 15:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

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Homophobic attacks and abuse on Wikimedia projects
Hi Sue,

I asked Jimbo the following question on his user talk page but he has declined to answer and instead collapsed the discussion:
 * ''Jimbo, this was a blatant and malicious homophobic attack, discrediting an editor's opinion during a community consensus process. Regardless of all other considerations of claims about Russavia's involvement in difficult topics (such as the Zhirinovsky's ass nonsense), the wider community and the Wikimedia Foundation does not accept any form of homophobic abuse against volunteers on our projects and must be seen to take action. You know I am a long term active supporter of the Wikimedia movement who happens to be openly gay, and as a result I have been subject to nasty on-wiki and off-wiki homophobic attacks, stalking and abuse in sustained attempts to frighten me off the projects. I look forward to your public statement supporting and valuing LGBT contributors to Wikipedia and your personal active involvement and leadership in this case.

I would be interested to hear if you or the Foundation has a position on the general issue and if you have any current plans to make Wikimedia projects, including Wikipedia, a safer environment for our LGBT editors who currently fear attack, stalking and harassment merely for improving our open knowledge content on gay related topics. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 13:58, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * As someone involved with Wikimedia LGBT outreach efforts and third-party wiki projects that support Wikimedia Projects whenever they can - I would also be interested in any response to this. --Varnent (talk) 20:32, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Sue, as an illustration of what can happen when Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation have no firm position on homophobia, you may want to see the problems that offensive essays such as WP:HOMO created by Wikid77 cause for our editors, as per the discussion at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Avoid word homophobic. It has been 10 days since my first note here, I know you have been very busy (it was lovely seeing you in Berlin), but I am certain you understand why this issue is highly significant for many of our contributors. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 03:14, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * To deter abuse and drama, I have removed redirect "WP:HOMO" (now "WP:Homophobic"). -Wikid77 (talk) 18:53, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi, Fæ. I just wanted to let you know that Sue has not yet returned to the office after the Berlin meetings. She is not expected back to work until next week, and may be spending some time catching up before she is able to turn her attention to her talk page. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:19, 8 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update Maggie. When Sue has caught up, she might enjoy taking a look at outreach:LGBT Outreach Project where things are progressing in this area. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 13:27, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Sue, well, it's been more than a month since my original post here so reluctantly I'm going to assume that for reasons I do not understand, either you to prefer to be seen as not saying anything on the issue of homophobic attacks on Wikipedia, or at least it is not a personal priority for you. If over the coming months you do find enough time to reply, don't forget to email me a note as I'll probably miss it otherwise. You may see me at Wikimania, by then I might be wearing a highly visible teeshirt as part of the LGBT Outreach Project in order to draw more public attention to these problems, and to bring them into sharp focus for the Wikimedia Foundation. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 06:24, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Fæ. Sorry for not responding -- I saw your note and meant to reply, but got caught up in other things and forgot. Sorry about that. (I also know that other Wikimedia Foundation staff have been talking with you about this issue, and figured you might have gotten what you were looking for from them.) So, I am sure you know that the Wikimedia Foundation has always encouraged editors to collaborate with each other in healthy ways, and to maintain a safe and civil environment for everyone. The Code of Conduct on the Wikimedia Foundation wiki is explicitly intended to provide guidance for volunteers as well as to regular staff and contractors, and it calls for respectful treatment for everyone, without discrimination on the basis of a number of factors including gender and sexual orientation. The newly adopted Terms of Use policy, which goes into effect on May 25, also encourages civility and politeness and forbids harassment. But as you know, we rely on the volunteer community of editors to set and enforce local policies based on these general principles. I'm not familiar with the Russavia situation you mentioned on Jimmy's talk page, but I'm sure you know the Wikimedia Foundation does not typically get involved with editorial or behavioural disputes: there are community mechanisms for handling that kind of thing, as there should be. I have a lot of faith in editors, and I am confident they will listen and adjust the current policies/practices if that's needed. I'd encourage you to work through those normal channels. Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 18:39, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Sue, thanks for getting back to me. I read your reply as that the Foundation has the code of conduct and the terms of use, but has no plans, such as a communications or outreach programme, to take any direct action to implement these to make Wikimedia projects, including Wikipedia, a safer environment specifically for our LGBT editors who currently fear attack, stalking and harassment merely for improving our open knowledge content on gay related topics. Rather, you have faith that the community will find a way to take this responsibility upon itself. No doubt you will see the LGBT Outreach Project as such a community initiative to address that gap (apparently the first one), and when I and my colleagues ask for it to be funded, you will be able to personally support the justification based on the fact that it is a clear way for the community to implement Foundation policy for itself and for the Foundation immediately to benefit by being able to demonstrate compliance of its projects against its existing policies. Thanks again. --Fæ (talk) 20:57, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Feedback for Wiki Ambassador Program Student
Hey Sue,

I am a student at Clemson University participating in the Wiki Ambassador Program and the page I have "taken under my wing" is Design elements and principles. I made my first edit tonight but there are many more changes to come. As I read on your page you are a fan of graphic design principals and this topic needs guidance of an expert. Thank you for you consideration hope to hear from you soon!. Andybolin (talk) 06:01, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi, Andy. Welcome to Wikipedia! :) While I'm not Sue, I did want to let you know that she is in Germany attending meetings right now and may not be getting to Wikipedia for a while. In the meantime, you might want to pop in at the Teahouse, where people should be able to respond to you quickly. Good luck with your work, and thanks for your interest in helping out that article! --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 12:33, 30 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Andy, what a coincidence --- I happened to be reading that page a few weeks ago, when I was working on the article about the flexibility-usability tradeoff, and it did look like it could use some work. I'm really glad you're doing it -- I can tell it's significantly better already than it was a month ago. I don't think I actually could help much --- I am not at all a design expert and I've never studied design: I'm just an enthusiast. But maybe this weekend I can try to help a little :-) Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

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Barnstar and offer
Thanks so much I have been contacted by several WMF staff today and it's been overwhelming with the press and my personal correspondence as well. I've literally been doing interviews, e-mails, and texts since I awoke! Thanks for your kind words and for your offer--it's very generous. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 23:05, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

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Wikimania
Hello Sue: apparently some people were crazy enough to give me a scholarship to go to Washington. I don't know what all's playing in July, but I've asked Sage Ross to reserve a box for you and me at the opera. Shall I ask him to make dinner reservations for us as well? Drmies (talk) 18:37, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

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Tablets vs. laptops
Perhaps you should ask a sysadmin to measure whether long term editors decrease editing when they start using tablets. That shouldn't be too difficult to measure, but it would involve tallying fields from the squid logs which aren't available on the toolserver because of privacy concerns, so only a sysadmin could do it. 71.212.251.217 (talk) 21:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Prompted by your comment at Sarah page, I wanted to make two, related observations. First, while I use my tablet to view Wikipedia pages, sometimes using it as a third monitor, I almost never edit from it. Second, at a family get-together last weekend, my nephew remarked that he almost never gets on his laptop anymore, he can do almost everything he needs on his mobile. I can access Wikipedia on my mobile, and maybe I can edit (I see that some do) but that sounds painful.) I know, only a single data point, but I'll bet the trend is there. I know Wikimedia is conscious of the growth of mobiles for viewing, but this trend could put a major crimp in editing.-- SPhilbrick (Talk)  23:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This too is my experience. Since acquiring a tablet, I have edited less. BrainyBabe (talk) 00:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I hate tablets and ipads for that reason (typing painfulness)....I've not tried them with the attachable keyboards though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:36, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

(Outdenting.) This conversation is distressing me! I want to send someone to all your houses to seize your mobile devices, or put you under house arrest, or something.

Truly, I do think that consumption-optimized devices (tablets and phones) are a threat to article writing. You can edit a wiki from your phone (I've done it) but it's no fun. We can make it easier, but I doubt people will write articles much from mobile devices, regardless of how easy we can make it. They will upload photos and fix typos and patrol for vandalism and do all sorts of things, but I doubt they will write articles much -- mobile is just not the optimal writing experience. The optimal writing experience is sitting down, in a quiet location, ideally with the ability to open multiple tabs, sometimes with books or other reference materials accessible. Writing is also (ideally) an absorbing task, which doesn't fit with mobile. People are not going to write articles while waiting for a movie to start, or standing in line to buy lunch.

This is one of the reasons I like the Global Ed project -- because I think the proportion of people using production-oriented devices (laptops/desktops) is going to start to shrink, and we're going to see more and more people 'leaning back' and consuming the internet like TV. That means that of the 'leaning forward' people who are actually writing and producing material: we are going to want and need them *all* writing articles. I like the Global Ed project because it narrowly targets production-oriented people --- students. Sue Gardner (talk) 00:22, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Well it could be worse. Laptop sales are flat, but not declining. Surely a managed stagnation is better than a managed decline? 71.215.95.182 (talk) 04:47, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

It's deja vu all over again
Seems we just can't rid you of your old CBC tendencies. Alison Smith is probably smiling. Risker (talk) 02:43, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * LOL Risker, that lack of precision really bugged me. I have to say though, in general the article was excellent. I really did not want to read through tons of coverage of that story -- I am not that interested in crime/gore type stuff, and it's easy for me to get all rage-filled thinking about the media debasing themselves with tabloid-y coverage. But I did want to get the objective summarized gist, and our article gave me exactly that. Good for Wikipedia :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 00:05, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Why I like DYK.....
Gives the extra incentive to buff articles - see Susan J. Douglas now - also nominated at DYK....Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "You cannot be serious!" What on Earth does "The book was the won the Sally Hacker Prize for exceptional scholarship that reaches beyond academia to a broad audience in 2000" mean? Is that really your idea of "buffed"? Malleus Fatuorum 04:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Tis fixed. And Sue, I grew up listening to As It Happens at the dinner table so seeing you on here puts a large smile on my face. -- Neil N   talk to me  04:18, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed? Really? "She penned Listening In: Radio And The American Imagination in 1999, a nostalgic look at the cultural impact of radio on American imagination, expressing concern over current creative stagnation, yet cautious optimism for radio's future." In which parallel universe is 1999 "current"? Malleus Fatuorum 04:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Current as in what was current in 1999. Honestly, it seems you need a big pointer to WP:SOFIXIT. -- Neil N   talk to me  04:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems like you need a big pointer to English 101. Malleus Fatuorum 04:33, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Aaawww, 1990s still seems sorta current when compared with 1960s or 1970s, though it's funny reading some of the links and pages written by Douglas to see how much has changed even since 1990s. Ah well, got everyone discussing - I feel like I'm in a Voltaire novel. :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:34, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * NB:@Malleus, changed "current" to "at the time" - if you can think of a better adjective/adjectival bunch of words, I'd be impressed/grateful....Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:38, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * (butting in) "Contemporary"? Rivertorch (talk) 19:29, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not
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DYK for Susan J. Douglas
Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:04, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Question
Sue, is it true that the German Federal Archive (Bundesarchiv) ended its collaboration with Wikimedia in 2010 because Wikimedia participants violated copyright and Creative Commons licensing rules? Cla68 (talk) 13:02, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sue may certainly have first-hand knowledge that I lack, since my contract was not active then and I was paying absolutely no attention to German Federal Archives, but I'll note that their website doesn't seem to indicate a problem, at, where it says, "You also can use fotos from the Federal Archives for free on Wikimedia Commons" and links to Commons:Commons:Bundesarchiv. And their user account seems to be quite busy. So there may be a misunderstanding of some kind in that article. That said, the article refers to the German Wiki-Chapter, not the Wikimedia Foundation: "Das deutsche Bundesarchiv hat die Zusammenarbeit mit Wikimedia Deutschland e.V., dem deutsche Wiki-Chapter, eingestellt, weil das zu zahllosen Missbrauchsfällen geführt hatte." If Sue doesn't have more clarity to offer, since Wikimedia Deutschland is an independent organization, it's possible that some of their staff may have insight. Too, while my ability to read German (slim though it is) is considerably better than my ability to understand German, there's evidently a speech about it here that might clarify: . I haven't a hope of following it myself. :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 13:36, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * That blog post is wildly inaccurate. The license violations cited by Bundesarchiv happened outside Wikimedia projects, and in fact Bundesarchiv emphasized that Wikimedia Commons had been fully complying with the license requirements. See the summary in my Signpost article at the time:
 * Dr Sander announced at a conference this month that the Bundesarchiv won't donate more images as part of the collaborations, citing two main reasons: first, a 230% increase in research requests without an increase in staff; and second, a disregard of the CC license in re-use outside Wikimedia projects, with increasingly "criminal traits", such as a sale of more than 3,000 images from Commons on eBay.
 * and this part of the YouTube video of Sander's talk (which Maggie linked above and which that the blogger cited as reference for his claims):
 * "And there are very few [reuse] cases where [attribution] has been done really 100% correctly. With this one image, we have found it reused in 14 places, in two [attribution] was complete, one of them being Wikimedia Commons - there it is always complete, there it is like it should be."
 * Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:17, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Since Haeb insinuates inaccouracy to my blog - which I deny - here is my translation for Your convenience: Plagiarism: Wikipedia violates its own license – Wikipedians failed to pursue violators!. My blog does not write that the licence is broken inside Wikipedia but that Wikipedians are responsible for pursuing violations outside of Wikipedia. Since Haeb speaks German his insinuation clearly seams to be a means of disguising this. --David Richter (talk) 12:09, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi. :) For accuracy, I do need to point out that Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia are separate projects, much like the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikimedia Deutschland are separate. While they are of course joined in a largely shared mission, they have different policies and many different volunteers, as not all editors move between them.


 * That said, one of the major problems all Wikimedia projects face is that, even though most content is very liberally licensed, many people who want to use it do not follow those licenses, just as people take content illegally from other websites where content may be published under full reservation. This is something that Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons contributors face as well; Mirrors and forks has many pages dedicated to listing people who reuse specifically Wikipedia content often without meeting the licensing conditions. Since Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons are not law enforcement agencies, they aren't empowered to pursue and enforce violations of these licenses and don't have any tools to do so. While sometimes Wikipedia contributors will follow the recommendations at that page I have linked and write to request that noncompliant reusers stop or meet license, there is little else they can do. :/ --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 22:10, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This isn't true. A lot can be done very easily. All Wikimedians have this problem, so the Foundation is in charge of
 * making the community aware of the problem
 * challenging the community to write a tool to find plagiarisms
 * challenging and supporting the community to sue copyright violators

It is no problem at all to sue copyright violators in "western" countries. Even Wikimedia got sued successfully by the Loriot heirs for example. In Germany and the US copyright law enforcement is no problem, only law awareness (and this is but the start. The German public isn't aware yet how easily Wikimedia can sued successfully and how less Wikimedia and German Wikipedians/Wikimedians are compliant with German and European personal rights and data privacy because public disgust is focused on the "evil Facebook"). The same is true possibly for the whole EU. Asia and Africa I don't know enough, but they aren't our main problem (yet?). By the way: ACTA would have put these "western" standards of law enforcement into Asian and African countries (This was its main aim).

The damages from copyright violators, could be used to spread the ideas of the community. So in the end there should be no additional costs, but perhaps some sort of skimming of excess profit from knowledge piracy - and surely some shit-storms from pirates, Occupy and Anonymous groups.--David Richter (talk) 09:19, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Since we're talking speculatively here, I need to make clear that even though I'm an employee at this point of the Foundation, I am speaking on my own behalf. I haven't any particular insight into how the Wikimedia Foundation feels about these things. :)


 * There seem to be really two issues here: (a) question of what Wikimedians should do about people outside who infringe license for content on Wikimedia projects and (b) the responsibility of Wikimedians to respect copyright within the projects themselves.


 * With respect to your ideas on the former, I'm afraid I know very little about German copyright law, but I do know a bit about the situation in the United States. Here, only the copyright holder has the legal right to sue a copyright infringer. Statutory damages for copyright infringement are arbitrary, ranging from $200 (approximately 160 Euros) to $150,000 (approx. 120,000), depending on whether or not the person who infringed my copyright understood that they were infringing my copyright and what "the court considers just." The courts may not consider that there is much financial loss to the copyright holder when the content could have been used for free anyway, if the licensing conditions had been met. And there is always the chance that they will decide fair use factors permit the reuse outside of the licensing conditions, at which point I will receive no compensation for my expenses. I've seen my own volunteer work pirated but would be uncomfortable with the risk of legally pursuing it for those reasons.


 * As far as the responsibility of Wikimedians to respect copyright within the projects, not misusing other people's content - a good bit of my volunteer time is spent making sure our content isn't pirated from others. :) There are sometimes legitimate points of confusion over what material is free for use and what is not, but Wikimedia Commons by policy requires that material be free both in the United States and in its country of origin. It requires caution where there is significant doubt; see Commons:Commons:Precautionary principle. Many of the contributors I have encountered seem to take that responsibility very seriously, and some people dedicate quite a lot of their time to educating newcomers on those principles.


 * Again, I'm speaking for myself here. These are my opinions merely, based on my own experiences and observations. :) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 12:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

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WikiProject Editor Retention
I have started a new project that may interest you. It has already drawn a great deal of interest from a diverse cross-section the community, including a couple of Foundation employees, which I find very encouraging. Dennis Brown - 2&cent;    &copy;  15:35, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

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Requesting your insights and perspectives
Hi Sue, thank you for all your work for the Encyclopedia. I'd like to invite you to contribute to the DRN concerning adding L. Susan Brown to the 'See also' section of The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM). Some of us believe the inclusion of Brown’s deep knowledge and perspective is helpful not just for her expertise, or for the sake of fairness, but, more importantly, because it provides a female perspective that would supply depth and context to the TZM article. Other editors oppose that view. Best regards, IjonTichyIjonTichy (talk) 14:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

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WP:WER Welcoming
As I comb the recent changes looking for redlinked (talk) newbies to welcome, I often see new editors that obviously self-identify as women via their User name choice. Is there a 'feminine focussed welcome' that would be more user-friedly and inviting, specifically as to the nuturing potential of a WP editing "career". There must be a different hook that can be used to light the fire of potential and awaken the spirit of new women editors to actively participate. Also, while I have your attention, over the past year I have involved myself as observor and participant in many varied civility/incivility discussions. I have a civility essay. One of the solutions that I suggest is......What if every editor was required to envision that the editor they are arguing with is a woman?....What if every editor was required to assume that the other editor, in fact all other editors, were their Mothers or their sisters or their favorite Aunt. Sounds silly I know. And hard to implement, I'm sure. Maybe I'm just talking about changing The Conversation. We Men will lessen our rudeness if there are women present. We will curse less, spit less, and scratch ourselves less. Thats what we have been taught to do. Lets use that "across all societies" teaching that is already in place (hard wired into male editors) to our (WP) benefit. Just thought I would plant a seed somewhere. Give it a little water. See what grows. ```<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black"> Talk  14:19, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia is not a dictionary
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German Wikipedia
One year ago You said: I think it’s fair to say [LAUGHS] the German Wikipedia is the best language version. It’s accurate, it’s comprehensive, it’s well maintained, the articles are longer, the articles are well referenced, and so forth. I wrote a lot of this articles. But today the german wikipedia turns into a fascistoid project of kitchen-dictators. The exclusion of Widescreen, Brummfuss, Liberaler Humanist, and a lot of left-liberal writers is a scandal. As it is that Frank S., member of the right wing "Schlagende Verbindung" got his position in the foundation and responibility for the outreach project. Ausgerechnet. Schlagende Verbindungs where forbidden in german universities after 45 for their role in Nazi-Germany and before. And SebastianM., head of the praesidium of the german Wikimedia-Chapter, does not accept antisemitism as an exclusion reason in the german wikipedia. Pfui. Further information could be found in my blogg: thomas7.netau.net. Kind Regards, Thomas7 00:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC) aka Keepstands (talk) 00:46, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * According to this essay, the German Wikipedia is better at animal rights respecting copyright genuinely free content as well.


 * Incidentally, Keepstands, I've left you a very well-armed (although not especially well-armoured) fighting vehicle as a gift on your talk page, just in case you need it to deal with any fascists that cause problems with your kitchen. On the English Wikipedia, we don't automatically ban people who self-identify as anti-semites - we do automatically ban one other self-identifying group. There's a joke there about grammar, but it's perhaps a bit too complicated for this situation. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:41, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We in germany see it in a little bit other way. The reasons for universities here to forbid "Schlagende Verbindungen", FrankS. is member of, after 1945 are stil valid. From out point of view, antisemitism is not compatible with encyclopädie as wee see it. And to exclude people like Brummfuss, Widescreen, Liberaler Humanist has a special tradition in germany, as we see it. It is not a matter of context dependend grammar things you might think of. Thomas7 (talk)08:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC) aka Keepstands (talk) 08:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Banning policy
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Barnstars
Hi, I noticed you left a barnstar for User:Casprings on the Rape and Pregnancy article. I'd encourage you to read the original version of the article, the one I AfDed - that was basically a WP:COATRACK and not very good. I would encourage you instead to leave barnstars for the editors who have made the article the one you are looking at today - User:Stevenj and User:Jokestress have been very prolific, and I'm sure I am missing other editors as well. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 15:14, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It appears that her comment for was recognizing the great idea of starting an article on the subject matter, in the first place, where previously none existed. :) However I must agree with you that it's most wonderful that  and  have improved upon that initial article. Cheers, &mdash; Cirt (talk) 14:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with Mr. Vernon. Casprings' "great idea" was to create a politically motivated article to highlight some idiot politician's gaffe. That article he created was nominated, and should have been nominated, for deletion. It was the work of others that made it into the excellent article it is now. Trusilver  17:22, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I can see why you both feel that way. But honestly, I still think it's worth celebrating that Casprings started the article, even if you're suspicious of his/her motivations, or think the article wasn't, in the beginning, very good. That's the beauty of Wikipedia, IMO: somebody can start something that's not great, and over time it'll improve. I am really happy about the Rape and Pregnancy article, even though it will still, I'm sure, continue to evolve. I think it's a great service for readers, and I'm happy that Wikipedians took the time to create something so authoritative and well-sourced. Having said all that, Mr. Vernon, I do think that Stevenj and Jokestress probably deserve barnstars too, and I might give them some later, on the weekend, if I have time :-) Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 21:00, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

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Long reverse copyright issue at village pump
Could you take a look at Village pump (miscellaneous) and explain who would hold the copyright for the article in question and what the process would be and/or what any intermediate steps would be? Ryan Vesey 04:03, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * HI Ryan, please pardon the very delayed response. Sue is swamped lately, and hasn't made it over here (although she's been doing some article writing).  In any case, though, she's not an expert on copyright - she often jokes that time spent on Wikipedia is equivalent to a PhD in Copyright.  :)  Our resident copyright expert, though, is Maggie Dennis, the community liaison.  You might drop her a note, if it's not too late.  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 07:03, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh thanks Philippe, but I think I *did* respond, and IIRC I invoked Stephen LaPorte, who made a better, more thorough response as well. You don't see it on the Village Pump because I guess it's archived by now. Talk pages: nobody ever knows where to reply ;-) Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 07:51, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, my bad! Should have checked contributions.  :)  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 11:22, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

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I think you'd enjoy this
I may be biased because I nominated this for FPC, but I feel that you'd enjoy watching this video that describes some complicated and thrilling engineering challenges. This is a NASA video describing the the challenging landing of the Curiosity rover. Watch in full screen in a dark room to get the full effect! <span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#008C3A 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#01796F -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;"><b style="color:#01796F;">Pine</b><sup style="color:#01796F;">✉ 23:11, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

You're invited! - Wiki Loves Monuments - San Francisco Events
Hi! As part of Wiki Loves Monuments, we're organizing two photo events in the San Francisco Bay Area and one in Yosemite National Park. We hope you can come out and participate! Feel free to contact User:Almonroth with questions or concerns.

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Please comment on Wikipedia:PC2012/RfC 1
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Bacha posh
Given the scope and exposure of your Wikimedia role, I know that it is very hard for you to devote significant time to editing. I wanted to thank you for the time spent researching and improving the article for bacha posh, which has clearly benefited from your thoughtful edits. Please accept my sincere thanks for your work on this one small article and for your efforts in helping create a place for all of the editors worldwide who have created the millions of articles that exist in Wikipedia. Alansohn (talk) 12:17, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

GLAM/GibraltarpediA
Sue, it appears a Wikimedia Foundation UK trustee has some type of a paid contract for something about Gibraltar. There's a whole GLAM project (note the external, redirected url) full of volunteers working on this. Is someone getting paid for these volunteer's work? Do they know that? Have they been misled at all? Thank you. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 19:29, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please note that the above appears to be a sockpuppet of a banned user. Prioryman (talk) 20:05, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Pfftt. Get a life, Prioryman. And quit stalking me. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 20:07, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Sue, if the WMUK is, at is appears to be, providing positive publicity to corporate clients in Wikipedia in exchange for renumeration for certain of its members, is this ok with the WMF? Should the WMUK be considered a charitable institution when engaged in such activities?  Should a chapter engaged in such activities be eligible for WMF funds?  Should such an organization be recognized by the WMF as a representative organization? Cla68 (talk) 05:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Sue, with all these chapters becoming established and the temptation they present, it would behoove the foundation to exhibit some leadership defining acceptable behavior. Don't you think? --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 07:12, 19 September 2012 (UTC) Reading some of the recent paranoid blather, it's clear that a few WMUKers are astonished and shocked that people outside their small insular group don't see things their way. Mark my word, this will be a hallmark of chapters (as it is with all small insular groups), and will only get worse as the chapters multiply and grow and become entrenched. Add to this the enormous fundraising capacity that Wikipedia hands them and I think you'll agree there needs to be a watchdog. I'd suggest inviting an outside party (non-Wikipedia) to keep an eye on these characters. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Sue, at least, I think the WMF has a duty to inform all of its contributors that a portion of their donations have gone to support paid, profit-intended efforts by WMUK officials to promote commercial enterprises in Gibraltar. Cla68 (talk) 22:28, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * As has been clearly stated more than once on the UK list & elsewhere, WMUK material or financial "support" to the Gibraltar project has consisted in its entirety in sending a small number of standard "how to edit" leaflets, nor is anything else planned. No travel expenses etc have been paid. (WMUK Treasurer) Johnbod (talk) 20:14, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Drop the ad hominem crap and the paranoia
Could we drop the ad hominem crap and the paranoia, and simply address the horrific public relations and ethics problems we have here? I don't care if this is being pushed off-wiki by Kohs, or any and all of the rest of the haters (who hate me too): it's a genuine concern for many of us who spend time and energy we don't have to spare, and don't like to see somebody leeching off Wikimedia funds as a consultant, or abusing their powers as an admin, officer, etc. to get free trips, lucrative contracts, etc. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  15:41, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Good advice. Thanks Orangemike. However, this isn't being pushed by Kohs. In fact, Wikipediaocracy didn't even break the story. See here. Furthermore, many of the participants at Wikipediocracy are dedicated Wikipedians in good standing, frustrated with the groupthink and paranoia and toeing-the-line you find at Wikipedia. --KlickitatGlacier (talk) 21:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Hi folks. (Responding to this section, and the one above.) I don't have anything to say about this right now: I'm talking with Jon Davies by e-mail. If I have something to say after he and I have talked, I'll come back and say it here then. It looks like this could have been better handled from a perception standpoint via faster and more complete disclosure, but I have heard and seen nothing that makes me believe anything seriously untoward has happened here. Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 07:16, 20 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I just realized this is the last time I wrote about the WMUK issue here. I am sure that everyone who's interested knows by now about the review, but I will link to the announcement here anyway, just for completeness. Thanks Sue Gardner (talk) 00:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

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Enforcing sysops to publish their real names or give away their sysop rights?
Hey Sue, in German Wikipedia there's going on a debate about a suggestion of two users who want to enforce all sysops of de.wp to publish their real names and post it on their user page. According to the users' suggestion, admins who do not want to publish their real names lose their sysop rights. Independent of the fact that this suggestion most likely will not reach consensus in the community, I would be interested if the Wikimedia Foundation would accept this guideline / local policy in the German Wikipedia, especially because this debated guideline in my opinion collides with the Foundation's Privacy Policy. However, I would appreciate a short statement from you or somebody else of the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. Links: Suggestion, Talk Page. Thanks in advance, Yellowcard (talk) 09:59, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not
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WMUK investigation
I suggest that it wouldn't be a good idea to allow WMUK members any input into who is selected to investigate their management practices. Cla68 (talk) 22:32, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Celebrity hairdressers
You have worked on articles about hair styles, as I recall. You may therefore be interested in the list of celebrity hairdressers which has just been threatened with deletion on the grounds that it is "a pretty textbook definition of trivia". Warden (talk) 10:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places
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Nomination for ED barnstar
I'd like to nominate Crisco 1492 who writes the Featured Content report for the Signpost. Besides his extensive contributions to the Signpost, he is an administrator, the recipient of an impressive collection of user awards, a contributor of numerous files to Commons, and has contributed over 50,000 edits to ENWP. --<span style="white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:#008C3A 0.1em 0.1em 1.5em,#01796F -0.1em -0.1em 1.5em;"><b style="color:#01796F;">Pine</b><sup style="color:#01796F;">✉ 04:58, 10 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm in favour of a few more of Sue's delightful barnstars appearing on the talk pages of more editors. —Tom Morris (talk) 08:17, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Arbitration Committee Elections December 2012
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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest
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Wikipedia article quality
Hi Sue,

I am writing a book about Wikipedia, which will include issues about 'edit warring' and article quality. One of my respondents, who is an expert on computer science, mentions a message he sent you last year about this. I can't verify if he is correct, but my own research strongly confirms there are problems with article quality. Could I ask why his problem was not taken up by the WMF, and could I ask whether the WMF will be trying to address quality problems? Hestiaea (talk) 09:42, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi there, Hestiaea - I'm not Sue, but I thought I could provide you with a quick calibration on this. It's not accurate to say that quality hasn't been a priority for the WMF; in fact, during our strategic planning process, we had an entire task force dedicated to Wikipedia quality.  And the truth is, there's no evidence that I've seen (I mean true scientific evidence, not anecdotal gut checks) to demonstrate that there's anything about Wikipedia quality that's going the wrong way right now.   If I could recommend a couple of background links: Quality/Quality and strategy:Category:Quality are pretty good places to start.  Best of luck!  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 18:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I checked out the 'quality studies' but they are pretty old. I left a note on your talk page. Hestiaea (talk) 14:14, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

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A brownie for you!
Aw, thank you Bearian! -- and you're making good arguments there too. I generally avoid getting involved in editorial debates because it risks confusing people. (I need people to understand I'm engaging as an editor, not as ED.) But even so I've been pretty active on rape-related articles lately, because I think Wikipedia is actually quite bad in that area -- the general level of base knowledge/expertise is low. And that particular debate is extra-fraught because of the partisan politics component. So, I appreciate the brownie :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 18:41, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm puzzled you say this when Philippe says directly above "there's no evidence that I've seen ... to demonstrate that there's anything about Wikipedia quality that's going the wrong way right now". Hestiaea (talk) 14:17, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh Hestiaea, selective quoting gets you everywhere, doesn't it? :) I rather think my quote involved more language than that... I think it was "there's no evidence that I've seen (I mean true scientific evidence, not anecdotal gut checks) to demonstrate that there's anything about Wikipedia quality that's going the wrong way right now."  What Sue's done there is gut-check one topic area on the Wikipedia.  That's not inconsistent with my statement at all.  And further, if we are weak in an area, that does not mean that we are going in the wrong direction...wrong direction would mean degradation of quality.  Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 16:26, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, is there any true scientific evidence that there's anything about Wikipedia quality that's going the right way right now? Many of the errors in my own error of specialism have been there a long time.  Why can't the WMF sponsor a serious study into accuracy?  I believe there was this, but it was badly flawed, IMHO. Hestiaea (talk) 11:06, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Y'know, it was actually your talk page that led me to that AFD. I'd seen the article previously and I'd seen that it had been previously nominated for deletion, but I hadn't been aware that it had been re-nominated. :-)

Re: this comment, I guess I had two main thoughts.

The first is that I don't have an objection to the content being merged into Rape and pregnancy controversies in the 2012 United States elections. If I had realized that was an option, I would've listed it alongside Todd Akin and United States Senate election in Missouri, 2012. A standalone article on this particular Akin incident still feels excessive to me. As part of a larger discussion of the 2012 election cycle and the various comments about rape and pregnancy within it, I think the incident can be included without such undue (and disproportionate) weight.

The second thought is what struck me as I read your comment. You wear a few hats around here, one as the Executive Director of the Wikimedia Foundation and another as a regular editor. But I believe you were actually wearing a third hat in that deletion discussion: as a long-time journalist. You may very well be right about this being a defining moment in the Republican Party and for social conservatives in the United States, but we, as Wikipedians, have to be very careful about chronicling&mdash;as a tertiary source&mdash;this phenomenon (if it exists). We have to be exceedingly careful to put aside our own hopes and wishes for the future of the Republican Party (which in case of many Wikipedians, are likely aligned) and try to remain as neutral as humanly possible.

All that said, I think it's also appropriate to say (again, as necessary) how awesome it is to see you actively editing here. I know you're busy, but thank you very much for all your recent article contributions. :-) In terms of understanding Wikipedia and Wikipedians, there's little that compares to the experience of actually editing and I really appreciate that you take the time to stay involved. --MZMcBride (talk) 15:47, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * MZ, thanks. I find editing enormously satisfying -- I agree with you that it's useful for my job, but I would do it even if I weren't ED. (Although, if I were not ED I likely wouldn't have stuck it out past my first couple of hundred edits -- I would've been deterred by the usual stuff: warnings, deletions, curtness, policy creep.) I've been interested in our rape coverage since I first started reading it after the DSK accusation, because honestly I find us kind of horrifyingly ill-informed about the basics of the issue --- presumably because we are so male, and men just don't have the same direct incentive to get informed that women do. I think the individual articles improve slowly, over time, but my hope has been that by getting involved, as someone who (yes) was a journalist and covered lots of crime etc., I might help them improve a little faster. I am conscious of not wanting to confuse anybody by participating on controversial topics, but so far nobody seems to be deferring to me in any way ;-) Sue Gardner (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)
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for the lawyers
This website is using the WMF "globe logo" as part of their own logo, which I believe is a copyright violation. Wasn't sure who exactly to bring this to, figured you would know. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Beeblebrox. :) I'll bring it to their attention. --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 21:50, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Commons issue with underage shirtless boy photos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Commons_is_broken_-_topless_boys_edition

Please do something. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThoughtYouShouldKnow (talk • contribs) 22:47, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

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The Signpost: 03 December 2012
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Please comment on Template talk:Policy list
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Edit-a-thon tomorrow (Saturday) in Oakland
Hi, I hope you will be joining us tomorrow afternoon at the Edit-a-thon at Tech Liminal, in Oakland. We'll be working on articles relating to women and democracy (and anything else that interests you). It's sponsored by the California League of Women Voters, Tech Liminal, and me.

If this is the first you are hearing of this event, my apologies for the last-minute notice! I announced it on the San Francisco email list and by a banner on your watchlist, but I neglected to look at the San Francisco invitation list until this evening. If you can't make it this time, I hope to see you at a similar event soon! -Pete (talk) 04:54, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Attracting new eds
Hi. I have become aware of various WMF efforts to attract new eds and I have an idea which may be worth a consideration. I feel the "Edit" button is too unappealing and inconspicuous. So much so that it does not even "register" itself on the minds of most non-ed readers. Moreover, the label "Edit" looks like something technical or boring and people may simply glide over it because of that reason, even if they see it. I think we should consider changing the label to something like "Improve this article?". IMO that would "catch" much more on people's minds, have a strong appeal, and would be more like inviting people to dinner rather than like inviting people to cook food. Just a proposal...Regards.OrangesRyellow (talk) 16:23, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Visual editor
I assume you did not intend to insert nowiki tags, so you may like to let the visual editor devs know. Johnuniq (talk) 00:02, 17 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks Johnuniq -- I just did :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 02:20, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation employee salaries
You are invited to comment here. Nirvana2013 (talk) 09:24, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Merry Christmas
Smallbones( smalltalk ) 00:56, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

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WMF in Bed with a Totalitarian Dictator?
Sue, what the hell is going on here? It appears that Wikiblim, an organization bankrolled by the oppressive Kazakhstan dictatorship, is applying for chapter status from the WMF. And that Jimbo is going there in person. Do you think it's wise letting Jimbo go off unsupervised? --BookCook (talk) 07:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sue, please, please take a critical look into this situation. This is the scandal that could kill wikipedia's credibility around the world. Forever.ThoughtYouShouldKnow (talk) 19:03, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Does Wikiblim have permission to use the WMF logo and name? If not, will you be asking them to remove their claims that they do?  Perhaps Jimbo could tell them when he arrives in Kazakhstan to praise the single-party government for using Blair-connected PR firms to improve their Wikipedia articles and the Kazakh Wikipedia? Cla68 (talk) 01:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sue, I hope you had a nice xmas! So what's going on here ... the opposition media has just been stomped in Kazakhstan and any mention that it ever existed from the Kazakh wikipedia. Could you please comment on this? Thank you. --Волфрам карбид (talk) 03:20, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!
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 TheGeneralUser  (talk)  is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

Spread the cheer by adding {{subst:Xmas2}} to their talk page with a friendly message. Hello Sue! Wishing you a very Happy Merry Christmas :)  TheGeneralUser  (talk)  20:43, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Notability (music)
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Accessibility and equality as core policies
I propose that we add a commitment to accessibility and equality to the Five pillars. Please join discussion at Wikipedia talk:Five pillars. It would be good to have support from the board and Foundation. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Service Award
For your contributions and competence, this Service Award is bestowed. --S. Rich (talk) 05:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Global Wikipedian award
Hi. Jimbo just removed a question on his talk page about the 'global wikipedian award'. What is this award, and did it have anything to do with the WMF, or was it an initiative of Jimbo alone? Thanks. 86.146.79.118 (talk) 22:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 14 January 2013
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Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Article titles
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Wikipedia, the people's encyclopedia
Hi Sue, loved reading the LA Times article you co-ed. I never realized it until I read the article; I see it every Wikipedia day and in myself, having started editing Wikipedia in 2005 and registering for an account in 2006, shortly before starting college. I just wanted to say thanks for the insight and beautifully written piece. Mkdw talk 20:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Ditto on the "loved reading" part above. I'll explain the relevance of the photo later.  Smallbones( smalltalk ) 22:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)