User talk:Sun Creator/Archive 9

Articles for deletion/Tyrone Relph
Hello, I considered the sources that you uncovered but am not convinced that he yet meets WP:MUSICBIO. I fully explained my thinking at the AfD. Your effort should be applauded, had I found the MTV stuff before I nominated the article I likely would have added the source and not nominated, but now that the discussion has begun notability must be established before I can endorse keeping. If you want the article userfied with the hope that his career will continue I would be happy to move it to your userspace. I hope you have a very Merry Christmas or whatever other holiday you celebrate. J04n(talk page) 00:42, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking a look. I have striked my keep per your comment. I'm not writing musician bio's so that is a pass on the userfication. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:51, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Galápagos tortoise Peer Review request
Hello SunCreator! If you are interested, I would be very grateful if you could help to Peer Review Galapagos Tortoise. I have been working on it for a while and would really appreciate your input. Many thanks, Minglex (talk) 23:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, will do. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 23:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

The Signpost: 27 December 2010
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My old school mates
I noticed you offered some comments over at Little tunny, there are actually two articles being worked on by my old crew. The other is Mauritian Tomb Bat: also under a peer review here. If you have time, it needs a solid review (nobody has shown yet save me and the teacher). The first thing I noticed was capatilization in the article title. Thank you regardless of whether or not you can offer insights, :-)--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 22:47, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems I was to slow. The peer review is archived. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:34, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw that yesterday. If you're still intersted, I would keep an eye on that page, a GA attempt is imminent I believe.  Thanks again, --NYMFan69-86 (talk) 01:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Watchlisted now :) Regards, SunCreator (talk) 12:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Extended a webbed foot to SunCreator
See where your Creationwiki dalliance led? I found this great pic and added another ref. And was able to tie it into the description pretty tightly to make the words more understandable.



P.s. Two more refs and we hit 150. Every time someone pushes me onto the net I find new stuff. :) TCO (talk) 00:25, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I saw that. It's a great picta! ... and a webbed foot for the caption. ;-) Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it waving at us!? "...thank you for finding me!!!..."--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 00:35, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * TCO, make sure you sign your comments in the FAC. Sandy will be after you otherwise. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:57, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

FYI on your oppose at Ironholds' RfA
Your oppose !vote got undented. If you still wish to oppose, please make sure that the first line stars with #, and not :# or #:, as the first will break the numbering and the both will indent the post and make it seem like you withdrew the !vote. If you did wish to withdraw, then yes, intent, but also strike out the vote and, preferably, also leave a comment explicitly stating you withdrew the vote. Just an FYI.  S ven M anguard  Wha?  03:36, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Bigoted Woman incident
Just a note; you wrote that "So you are confirming he was at the time a political active Liberal Democrats supporter and so it is POV political bias. Thanks. At least that answers my 'WHY' question and explains his emotional involvement in the situation". If I was paying attention to that AfD due to a "POV political bias", I would have been emotionally involved in trying to have it kept. The seat in question was a marginal one and a high priority for the Liberal Democrats, a party I am no longer a member of; any reduction in the Labour vote or continued advertising of that event would have had the effect of increasing my former organisation's share of the vote. It is thus illogical that I would get involved due to political bias, and when involved, argue for the outcome which was diametrically opposed to those in my apparent bias's interests.

Secondly, you seem to be making the presupposition that because I hold opinions (of any form) in AfDs, I would make a poor administrator, because administrators are meant to be neutral. We all hold opinions and biases, regardless of userrights, and the fact that I have an opinion when commenting an AfD does not mean I am going to utilise that opinion when closing it. I would ask you to assume good faith, and, if you want to see how I'd approach AfD's as an administrator, have a read of Question 12, posed by User:Panyd, in which I'm asked how I would close particular AfDs. If you still wish to oppose after that, that's fine - everyone is welcome to hold an opinion, even when I disagree with the opinion in question. However, it seems unfair to make a decision based entirely on your interpretation of a single AfD — an AfD from April. Kind regards, Ironholds (talk) 14:51, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

awesome!
Thanks for staightening out that reference and circular concern. I woulda been stumped. Grappling with Chihuahua...TCO (talk) 23:52, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 00:59, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 3 January 2011
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Empire of Brazil FAC is now open!
Empire of Brazil is now a Featured Article candidate. Your opinion (either as support or oppose) is welcome. Here is the page: Featured article candidates/Empire of Brazil/archive1. Kind regards, --Lecen (talk) 18:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I know you don't know who I am, but I've been a silent admirer of your work Lecen. When I get the chance, I shall drop a few comments.  :-)--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Relative importance of Turtle articles
Article rank (turtles)
 * 1) Turtle
 * 2) Loggerhead sea turtle
 * 3) Green sea turtle
 * 4) Tortoise
 * 5) Galápagos tortoise
 * 6) Sea turtle
 * 7) Bog turtle
 * 8) Red-eared slider
 * 9) Aldabra giant tortoise
 * 10) Trionychidae
 * 11) Wood turtle
 * 12) Spur-thighed tortoise
 * 13) Diamondback terrapin
 * edit(much of list removed. Apparently not accurate over small period of time. Re-examining:User:SunCreator/Turtles.table)

Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:32, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hawksbill? Critically endangared and one of precious few FAs.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 07:38, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There are many turtles other then the Hawksbill sea turtle that are critically endangered, not in the wild or with only one individual living - most species of which I doubt you've heard of(I hadn't!). Being rare doesn't help the encyclopedic nature of it especially unless it's important for some reason so its name is known like the Dodo. Being FA does greatly help for sure. There are things that can be done to adjust any articles WP:1 score, one is improving it's quality(class) rating. Another is making sure it's linked from other relevant articles. Have now added to Sea turtle. Will get to more things in time. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 15:09, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If I may comment here. I think to assess importance it should be looking at how much the reader can discover from that page and its relevance worldwide. For example a family of turtles, eg Trionychidae you have listed, leads to an entire group of turtles with much for people to discover about soft-shells, hence this is important, single species should be less important as they will be leading to less places and have a reduced need of information on the part of readers. Note I am not talking about quality here. There are certain iconic species world wide that are important, Galápagos tortoise being an example, another would be Cuora trifasciata as it is a major player in smuggling and a highly endangered species, individuals valued at US$20000, due to its use in Chinese medicine. Is this a pleasant reason, no, but a very important species it is in the fight against wildlife smuggling. So basically what I am saying is your most impirtant pages are portals (eg families) and iconic species at the worldwide scale. Cheers, Faendalimas (talk) 15:23, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is basically how I see it. Bear in mind the above list is the WP:1 ranking, a system that ranks every article on Wikipedia. Importance to WP:AAR or a turtle project would be a little different, but along the lines you give. Not all families are of much importance, especially if they have few members. Some of the turtle families don't have an article and are redirects i.e Platysternidae,Dermatemydidae,Carettochelyidae so there is a balance to be made. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 15:46, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I would go off of page views for current article in wiki tool (can check multiuple months if you want) or google page ranking (try turtle and see what comes up). that shows what the interest is in.  Wiki should have articles on what people are interested in.  Yeah, maybe in some ideal sense people should be as interested in (pick an obscure turtle) as they are in "snapping turtle" or diamondback terrapin, or sea turtle, but...they're not.  And I doubt an FA (for example on the Mauritian grave bat) is going to make them interested in something obscure. I would take an approach of serving people's desires, not "telling them what to eat".  I think  that ends up doing more good for the world.  Plus personally, I think it's more fun to work on something you know is and will get viewers.  And usually I kinda agree with the general public on what animals are cool and interesting.  TCO (talk) 16:06, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes to a degree, but it is also an encyclopedia, that means we need to provide the capacity for people to look up anything, even the obscure, and we should put effort into all those pages, we all need to work on all types of pages within our expertise, its not a popularity poll for the editor. If a person wants information on an unusual turtle they should be able to find quality information. Faendalimas (talk) 16:31, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Page views are just a guide. It makes up about 1/3 of the WP:1 scoring I seem to recall. Views have some problems like recentism and over focus on entertainment (TV,music,sex) subjects(i.e. Justin Beiber) at the downsize to encyclopedic articles . Regards, SunCreator (talk) 17:10, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree on history or the like. You want a reference work (like Britannica) to have some of that stuff that is not topical. Need to have a solid bio on General Grant, not just Brittney Spears. I think for an animal, though, I would weight it higher. There's a reason why people want to know more about alligator than about some Cuba caiman or the like. And a lot of the project rankings are just kinda guesses anyhow. I would go off of pageview and then tweak it when it doesn't feel right. But whatever you want to do is cool. And we got the importance upgraded to high. so 1.0 is old. but no biggie. I know you have to make decisions and go to some source and 1.0 is a good choice.TCO (talk) 18:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry I'm just now joining in (when the conversation is 6 days old). When I think of the 'most important turtle articles', I think of articles that need to be in the best shape possible.  Painted, Galapagos, and Loggerhead among other species have a wide range, thus more people are going to want to know about them.  However, as Faendalimas has pointed out, it's not that simple.  Plenty of non-species articles are critical to understanding the testudine order, thus they should be a priority as well.  It's a balancing act, let's just hope our circus has enough participants. :-P   --NYMFan69-86 (talk) 06:56, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Also something else to consider: Portal:Turtles. Needs creating and would probably be pretty high on importance scale.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 17:37, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have thought about that, it was the reason to find out the popular pages - because from that you can better understand what is desirable for the portal. Also the book. Did you know I wrote a book ;-) Book:Turtles? I shall restructure it using as a basis at some point. Plenty to do and kinda maxed out on real life at the moment. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 17:46, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's awesome! I have about another week of freedom before the spring semester starts, I'll see what I can work on (and if I can get the project passed...how long does that typically take and does someone have to come along and approve of it?).  Thanks you, --NYMFan69-86 (talk) 17:50, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Once you have 5 members which you have then you can create the project. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 18:01, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thinking about doing it soon (between now and tomorrow). Will be called WikiProject Turtles and we can start with this skeleton.  Again, I just need the five supporters?  There's no editor/committee I need to run it by first?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 04:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * WikiProject_Council => "If your project gains support from 5–10 active Wikipedians, it could probably benefit from the organisational boost of having a proper page. Strike its entry on the list and follow the instructions for creating new projects. If you want to start a page before you have 5–10 active Wikipedians, consider setting up the page on a subpage of your user page until it is active, while leaving the posting here with a link to the user page. You can also promote the newly created WikiProject at ."
 * Ah, I suppose reading the page helps! :-P Alrighty, I'll do it now.  Thank you so much!--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 04:16, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Bump. Still working on this. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:29, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Question
About this edit, what should one do when the chapter title is in all caps? Is it still Chrysemys picta?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I see no guidance on this. Journal names are not to be capitalised, suggesting capitals are not encouraged - most likely because it looks ugly. Articles are to be consistent. If the Ernst chapter headings are in capitals I'd be happy to change them given that 'Chrysemys picta' is written throughout the article. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:31, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a conglomeration of turtles in the 1972 Ernst book, all with their own "chapter" (not totally comfortable even calling them chapters). In any case, the heading before each turtle is in caps, I don't necessarily think we have to format the same way, but I truly don't know ("Chrysemys Picta" was definitely wrong on my part).--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:37, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * In the table of contents at the front where it break up the sections. How is the section heading written? Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:48, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You're a genius...Chrysemys picta. :-)  --NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha. Well, the truth is I checked with Google books before I made the edit and while I couldn't see the exact 'Chrysemys picta' text the format of other species suggested it was that. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. A fine edit regardless.  :-) NYMFan69-86 (talk) 03:03, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * On a related question. What should be italicized? Names that are genus, species and subspecies? What about families and subfamiles? Regards, SunCreator (talk) 03:10, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

genus, species and subspecies all get itlaicised. Home sapiens sapiens. Anything higher (family, subfamily) does not. Genus and above are caps. Species and below are lc. However, I would still capitalize a species or subspecies if it is at the beginning of a sentence or in a book title or the like (treat like a normal lc word, then). [If you look at some sources they will say "never" capitalize species or subspecies, but what they mean is don't capitalize it if it comes from someone's name: "bellii", not "Bellii". (And some very old sources will capitalize Bellii, but we are talking really old shiznet.]

Most journals that I know DO capitalize article titles (a few do not). Not sure where Mississippi-linker is coming from. Seriously, go check some. That said, it does vary. And I have no statistics. Newspapers and wiki articles in general don't. Books always do. Of course even if you follow journal pattern, sometimes they have the entire WORDS in caps, which we don't want to copy, so need to make a call. Sometimes checking table of contents (SunnyC's trick) can help.TCO (talk) 03:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Good work you sentence-caser! — Preceding unsigned comment added by TCO (talk • contribs) 04:48, 9 January 2011

DYK
In case you missed my post after your thanks....it appeared on the Portals DYK, not the main page DYK. Portal:Amphibians and Reptiles C T J F 8 3  chat 02:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks for the special effort in letting me know. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:42, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No problem!...sorry for the annoying orange bar, lol C T J F 8 3  chat 02:43, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 10 January 2011
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Monotypic genera
Yes, this part:

"If there is a choice of scientific names, generally use the lowest-ranked taxon which the article covers, but for monotypic genera (i.e., where the genus has only one known species), use the genus name for the article title.
 * Xenoturbella (not Xenoturbellidae or Xenoturbellida).
 * Nodocephalosaurus (not Nodocephalosaurus kirtlandensis)." mgiganteus1 (talk) 00:21, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Irwin's Turtle (now turtle)
I've moved Irwin's Turtle (capital T) to Irwin's turtle (lowercase t) per your request and WP:CAPS. I've left a redirect in place at Irwin's Turtle - possibly a good idea in case anyone has that bookmarked. If you want the redirect (Turtle with a capital T) deleted, please let me know, but remember, "redirects are cheap"! Cheers, Tonywalton Talk 17:54, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Yes, redirects are cheap, that is why I create so many of them :) Regards, SunCreator (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

You deserve yet another...

 * Your welcome! Articles seem better now that they are getting organized. Easier to navigate and easier to understand how they fit together. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 01:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Chelonia
Confusingly, Chelonia is also the name of a higher taxon, often used as a more inclusive group for Testudines and extinct turtle groups, or instead of Testudines. MMartyniuk (talk) 04:35, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Image flipping
Would you mind doing me a favor and flipping this public domain image? Or, if ya don't want to, can you tell me how you do it?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 05:42, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Save it to your computer, open with MS Paint (can rightclick and that choice comes up), then there is a menu choice for flip (for me, it is under "rotate"). flip it. Save as (rename to mirror image) and upload.TCO (talk) 17:03, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll give it a shot, thanks TCO!--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 20:34, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Oh...and look at how Suncreator did one of the picta flips. (look at his version in the file image page.) There is a program he uses. It won't do the flip for you, but it will take care of updating the file image page (sort of like a Magus ref tool). I used it when I flipped the basker (can look at that also)TCO (talk) 20:52, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry for delay most of my edits are failing to save, so rewriting things again and again. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 21:05, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No worries. Any other advice for me as I try this?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Upload as a derivative work of a file from Commons with new file name so that both left and right exist. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 21:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Cool, thanks!NYMFan69-86 (talk) 22:12, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That program I talked about does that (uploads and marks it as derivative and all, keeping old version.)TCO (talk) 00:21, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * What program is that? Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

"derivativeFX" See here:    — Preceding unsigned comment added by TCO (talk • contribs) 00:44, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. I used the same thing here. Your guided into using it once you choose the "Upload as a derivative work of a file from Commons" option. The program that does the flipping, is whatever your chosen image editor is (i.e Photoshop, Paint, GIMP etc.). I use GIMP because it's open source. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't paint automatically convert it into a .bmp? I'll probably use Microsoft picture manager or something.NYMFan69-86 (talk) 01:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Depends on the version of Paint perhaps - I rarely use to find out. At a guess the version with Windows XP converts to .BMP but later versions of Windows will leave/save files in jpg/jpeg. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 01:22, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I used paint and it left it .jpg. It all worked like a charm, thank you.  :-) NYMFan69-86 (talk) 18:51, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Didn't know if you wanted to
Shouldn't the project talk page have our banner?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 02:32, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, will try to sign (NT)
TCO (talk) 02:41, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, sorry it doesn't work correctly. I've raised the issue of the bot not being deny compliant with the bot owner. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:50, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

The Signpost: 17 January 2011
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List of U.S. state reptiles
I think we can let this be strictly AAR, no?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 03:23, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Up to you. I thought if your goingvto work on it then it might as well be in the turtle project. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 03:28, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I don't know. The list contains turtle, but isn't exclusively about them (you already know this, just thinking out loud).  We'll ask ZooPro? --NYMFan69-86 (talk) 03:40, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe it is best that it has both banners. We'll leave it and see what happens.--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 04:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing much would happen either way. Are you looking to make this an FL. The subject makes it difficult, no enough coverage in sources would be my guess. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 04:09, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think we're going for FL. There are a few books on this, I'm sure online sources will help fil in the gaps.  Another problem is that the list may be changing: new states naming a reptile, others replacing ones they already have...  We'll play it by ear.  NYMFan69-86 (talk) 04:50, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Your Help desk thread
In case you have stopped following your thread WP:Help desk, I posted another reply there. —teb728 t c 23:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I replied as the Help desk. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

iPhone question
(Moved from Portal talk:Turtles)
 * Hey, random question: didn't you use to have a userbox that said you contributed with an iPhone?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 00:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quick really, it took about 2 hours to create that list! Yes, I used to have a userbox with that. Still sometimes contributed with iPhone but not as much as before. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:26, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Two hours!? Okay, follow up question: how do you scroll down within the edit window?  I've tried everything and I can't figure it out. NYMFan69-86 (talk) 00:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Press your finger on the area, like you do for copy/select text, hold until it's focused then move your finger down to scroll down or up to scroll up. It's kinda slow because it goes over each character and you can't make it scroll fast. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:45, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes! It worked!  It is really slow though, but thank you for that.  :-) NYMFan69-86 (talk) 00:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Another options is to go Special:Preferences and select editing and make rows a bigger number like 80(my default) or more. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 00:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That helped out quite a bit. Thank you!--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 01:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If you use two fingers you can scroll fast. Thanks to User:Xeno for that tip. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 05:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thought I would reply here. Yeah, that was borderline exhausting.  And thanks!  I'll give it a shot.  :-)NYMFan69-86 (talk) 04:01, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

snookum
I asked him to take a look at the article. I think he stuck that note in before reading the whole thing. If we really did oversell the "BC aspect" than maybe he gives us valuable expertise. And we just cut it. Anyhow, hoping we can work through all of it.TCO (talk) 03:25, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Those last two sentences make me uneasy as I've said before on the talk page. It seems trivial although I can't find any wiki policy against it. snookum said undue and after his edit I re-read the WP:UNDUE thing and it seems to me about opinion which a fact about a business having a name is not. Looking at it from another angle coverage of the topic is suppose to be comprehensive. So that seems to indicate it should be in there. But then again other such topics don't seem to have it. Looking at companies registered you could find a matching name for most topics, but are they included like that in FA articles? It seems not. So you see I'm confused and uneasy about it. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 03:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * To me, the winery seemed pretty sizable from website and awards and was really pushing the connection, not just naming themselves, but a logo, discusison of lifestyle and stuff on their site about the animal. And the camp and the press imprint.  For a creature like a lion, you probably have so many that you only note the most iconic (studio one, Fox?).  For something as small as the painted turtle, I kinda felt finding any "love" was noteworthy in and of itself.  Definitely the official state reptile stuff should stay.  You could clip some of the other stuff.  I was trying to be comprehensive...and I built that whole section out of nothing!  But if we have to cut some of it, like the crappier businesess, fine.  Or the kids book (I actually found a second one, just on picta, but I held off).  If we cut the BC slant than it just reads a little less "pretty".  Was sort of trying to make sure we were fair in coverage of the creature in both US and Canada (since it ranges both places, Mexico it may be dead there for all I know and has only been seen twice in the history of writing).  but if we cut the little BC sentence in the lead, we just note the US state considerations.  I don't really think of it as some mechanical application of policy, but of understanding the policy and trying to follow what the intention is.  But we could have some straw down in the Culture section.  TCO (talk) 04:20, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I can understand if the winery is sizeable. I never investigated the subject like you. Will check it out tomorrow. I have no issue with state reptiles or any of it but the final two sentences and the final line about the restraurant seems more trivial then the line before. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 04:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, let me let this guy finish up first and opine on the BC aspect. (And for all I know he rips us a cloaca on the rest of it, so we deal with that too.)  I think that I could make you pretty happy by culling the BC sentence, being a little less "braggy" about the states (I still prefer to at least note it, think general public "cares"), and stripping all the weaker businesses.  Let me see what NYM thinks too...just don't want to be changing back and forth as we get down to final days.TCO (talk) 05:01, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The way I see it, TCO has done a good job of organizing and incorporating it all. None of the material in the body of the article needs to be removed, "culture" is a compact and interesting part of the article and I feel it's coverage in the lead is as good as any other main section's is.  Now the questions becomes is it noteworthy and encyclopedic?  I should think it is, no?--NYMFan69-86 (talk) 05:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * A bit was cut from the lead. No problem, the word 'popular' was not referenced it seemed. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 02:03, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I support the changes. (That was a reach.) :-) TCO (talk) 02:29, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * My noggin is loquaciously taking in new words. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 03:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Let me mix in some gansta roll too! You should have seen me when I drank. People got a hoot out of it. (but it was gaming forums and the like, more play allowed.) In my defense, I do make some reaches at times (am always looking for organizing principles, so what's), but at least I'm willing to change. That fella lives up there and I sorta constructed an image in my mind of the liberal Canadian BC hippies loving their poor endangered turtles...but I overinterpreted. ;-) TCO (talk) 03:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC)