User talk:Sunshinefortress

Speedy deletion
To merit inclusion of the article on Sunshine Fortress, I think you need to look carefully at meeting conditions such as those in Notability (music) and also to set out the article in such a way as it meets Manual of Style - ie wikilinks included, properly categorised and references to support notability assertion.

Your comment on the article's talk page for example seems to assert that you meet the criterion equivalent to Has won or placed in a major music competition. - ie performed in major comedy festival - there are no wikilinks to any festival - if the festival doesn't have an article, then ...

You should also note the footnotes to the music notability guidleine - ie ''Self-promotion and product placement are not the routes to having an encyclopaedia article. The published works must be someone else writing about the musician, ensemble, composer, or lyricist. (See Autobiography for the verifiability and neutrality problems that affect material where the subject of the article itself is the source of the material.) The barometer of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself have actually considered the musician, ensemble, composer, or lyricist notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works that focus upon it.''

However, if you want help, let me know - I can for example recreate the page into your user space so you can work on it.--Golden Wattle talk 20:42, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

email query
Hi - you wrote:
 * I'm having a hard time philosophicaly grasping the notability guideline for inclusion on wikipedia. My confusion is best summed up in your comment that Sunshine Fortress the group isn't notable because it has appeared in a major comedy festival because there aren't any articles about major comedy festivals.  Are you talking about any kind of articles or just wiki articles?  If you are refering to wiki articles then my problem of course is... who wrote the first wiki article?   Did wiki evolve from nothing?  Because obviously the first article couldn't have refered to anyother wiki articls.  However if you are refering to other kinds of articles (non-wiki) then I could provide those.... however that train of thought leads me to the same place... who wrote the first article?  That first article didn't reference any other artciles either.  In the end it seems to come down to a cyclical system of people referering too each other relationship, and using these references to show notablity.  I guess I don't really have a problem with that, I'm fine with that, but my problem is that there can exist  centralized base that makes decisions about what is and isn't relevant and pointing to this cyclical reference system as it's justification for those definitions.  Please explain to me where in my thoughts I am wrong.  I am unsure of whether I want to participate in this wiki game.

I prefer to keep discussions on the wiki - ie on user or article talk pages.

My suggestion is to start with writing about the comedy festivals because there are plenty of gaps in this area. There are plenty of gaps still throughout the wikipedia and because the articles are not there does not mean that the subject is not notable. Notability is not established in itself by referring to other wikipedia articles. The wikipedia does work best by linking with other articles, while there may be a question as to who wrote the first article, orphaned articles, that is articles there are no links to, are deprecated - if you have no connection with any other article on the wikipedia, I would expect that omission to be rectified.

Notability in the case of a comedy group would be established by meeting criteria such as those outlined at Notability (music): for example has the group been mentioned in newspapers more than once by people independent from the group. Notability is not established by linking in a hierarchy of notable subjects - I apologise if my comments made you think that. However, for me who lives in another country, if the festival has no article it raises for me the question exactly how notable it is, and then casts doubt as to whether the criterion "performed in major comedy festival" has indeed been met. You will also need to cite sources to verify the facts.

Finally, not also that it is not considered a great idea to write about your own group. If the group is notable enough, somebody else will write the article.

Hope this helps. --Golden Wattle talk 18:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)