User talk:Szopen/Old


 * Witaj. Moze chcialbys sie przylaczyc do polskiej Wikipedii.
 * Dzialamy pod adresem http://wiki.rozeta.com.pl/ Kpjas

Moze kiedy w przyszlosci
 * Er, that's not the Polish Wikipedia: the Polish Wikipedia is located at http://pl.wikipedia.com/ . --LMS
 * Read the http://pl.wikipedia.com/, it says that Polish Wikipedia is temporarily on http://wiki.rozeta.com.pl/. --Taw
 * That's right. We are sincerely willing to move to the pl.wikipedia.com but there are still obstacles on the wikipedia.com's part.--Kpjas


 * Czesc Tomaszu, mam wrazenia ze znam skads Twoje nazwisko. Nie brales kiedys czynnego udzialu pryz rozwijaniu freeciva? szopen

A bralem, bralem. Jeszcze lezy u mnie na dysku sporo niewlaczonego kodu. --Taw

Witaj w wikipedii drogi Szopenie. ciesze sie iz Polska jest tu coraz mocniej reprezentowana. -- WojPob

Szopen -- some of your proposed changes sound good. One I would not make, though is the one about co-opting Slavs, except to maybe say Slavic leaders or leading warriors -- this information was taken directly from reading several 9th century sources. It may be a simplification, but it's neutral and correct. Thanks -- A friend

Toszopen,

I have been gone for several days. Will try to catch up on the questions accumulated in the meanwhile. First of all. Danzig is located in the territory of Old Prussian Land. The church however "christianized" Danzig from the West by the Cistercians. Oliva (at Danzig) was founded ca 1178 and christianized from Pomerania- Pomerellia (little Pomerania). Pomerania was a part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Monk Christian of Oliva, was designated the Apostle of Prussia by the pope. Brandenburg margraves had inheritance right to Danzig, but pope gave Danzig and Pomerellia to Teutonic Order together with Prussia, Livonia etc. (Earlier history was recorded as part of Magna Germania, first time 98 AD ). Prussia was "christianized' from the east. (First Poland tried, was repelled several times by Prussians). Then Baltic Crusades or Northern Crusades against Prussia, Livonia, Lithuania. Archbishop of Riga was then head over the four bishoprics of Prussia (by order of William of Modena, papal legate). Riga was under Visby, Gotland. Posen or Poznan was til circa 1250 under Magdeburg. Before the Polanen received ducal title from emperor, they were part of Czech .(Czech and Lech)Czech and Polish dukes, kings all pledged allegiance to emperors for the land they held in lien (on loan)

Mieszko and Boleslaw were margraves of the empire ( married to Saxons).

Later Polish kings all were married to Habsburgs, Vasas ( Austria, Sweden were part of empire) Archbishop of Krakow (a Hanseatic League city was a prince of the empire. And "Polish " kings continued pledging allegiance to emperors, either by pledge, marriage or as members of the order of the "Golden Fleece". (Catholic Counter-reformation). From circa 1695 to 1768 ? Electors of Holy Roman Empire, Saxony were also kings of Poland.

They probably did not put too much emphasis on all these facts in your country during the communist regime.

With your last statement about Hitler, perhaps you can explain to me the Polish leader Rydz Smygly( can't remember exact spelling), who in March 1939 had a portrait of himself painted riding through the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin taking over Germany. What explanation do you have for that ?

What is your explanation of the expulsion of hundereds of thousands of Germans from Polish Corridor starting after 1919 and of the 50 thousand of these (ethnic) Germans from the Polish Corridor in summer 1939, herded on a death march by Polish neighbors( recorded as Bromberger Blut Sonntag (Bromberg Bloody Sunday)?

H.J.

To szopen   on Prussian Confederation: JHK added things to this.

Prussia always resisted incorporation, but it was tried several times.

1453-1466 was " War of the cities". 1466 Treaty of Thorn, was denied by pope and emperor. Habsburg Teutonic Grandmaster continued as head over Prussia. Emperor Maximilian II was elected as king of Poland also, but died and Sigismund III Vasa of Sweden,duke of Lithuania, Prussia, also became king of Poland.

Emperor Maximilian II's son Maximilian III, Austria, Teutonic Knights Grand Master, was elected king of Poland also. see outside link: http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/desbillons/eico/seite45.html

Prussia never had any Polish institutions. Language was Hanseatic League Low German Platt, later High German.

Hanseatic League cities had German language independend city council government under city majors.

Krakow in 1504 had German city council. Many cities in Poland, Ukraine etc were founded with Magdeburg city charter rights. H.J.

Answer to your email.

It is a little lengthy and confusing to me. I believe I have answered most of it here already. In the email you write something about Pomorze and 150 years. I believe you are inquiring about Pomerania ( in Latin and English) ? Here is a good website to read about some of Pomerania http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12225a.htm Pomerania was a part of the Holy Roman Empire until 1804/6 and a part of Magna Germania for nearly 2000 years. Several times it was conquered by Polish, all together for about 50 years. H.J.


 * What is Magna Germania when it's at home? You say it existed for 2000 years, yet the concept certainly did not exist after the fall of Rome, even if there was such a thing in Roman writings.  If Magna Germania didn't exist (which it didn't), then how could pomerania be part of it?

- To szopen You are absolutely right and you know it and I know it about all the complicated and diverse history of people in Europe. But I live in America since 1962. People here in general do not know anything about European or any other history besides what they hear daily: The USA is the greatest. Now I am over simplyfying and there are very educated people who know every detail. But the general public and overwhelming majority do not know anything about Europe other than WWI and WWII propaganda. Therefore I am writing my inputs in wikipedia with the majority of English speaking people in mind who live all around me. When you give them too many details they just get totally confused. In the last 10 years or so it has gotten better and I know from schools that now they show a little bit of European history in school books. But believe me the onesided Cold War education was totally black and white and the WW II education is still totally black and white. When you go to any book store here they have isle after isle of books all on WW II. Then if you are lucky you find maybe one or two books on a particular country. I started collecting historical facts by bits and pieces .The main reason why I spend this much time, which I should not, on inputting in this wikipedia, is to show the family relations of the leaders of the different countries in Europe.When you read about the "Polish crown" it is to me important to know who these people actually were. It is important to me that the Polanen who came into Germania were taken in as Brother of the Empire and received land in lien ( land on loan), the same as the other rulers who pledged allegiance to the emperors. And you are right, when you notice , that so many places in todays Poland were German speaking. The cities in Poland Ukraine and Lithuania were founded with German Magdeburg law and the cities had self government by a city council or Rat. Therefore you have the Rathaus ( Ratus ?) in Danzig. And no Germans wanted to be taken over by any other authority. Berliners did not like it when they had to give up the free independend Hanseatic League city status when the Kurfuerst electors of Brandenburg took their seat in Berlin. And the German phone book is full of Germans with Polish names, who all came to Germany over the centuries, rather than living under "Poland" which was actually under Russia. Another point about the German names of places in Poland. First of all this wikipedia is in English and there are guidelines about keeping the English names of places and in addition giving local names. Taw tries to change everything into Polish, which is wrong. Poland supposedly signed an agreement, that the German language is an official language again (I do not know if this is for the German parts taken over by Poland after 1945 only, or if it is valid for all of Poland).Therefore the German placenames (which are often also the English) are still absolutely correct to use. I have a 1998 Swedish atlas that shows both the German and the Polish names. I have a ca 1600 atlas, that shows a large German speaking city of Bromberg and below it a small town Bedgocz (or Bidgocz). I have looked at many church records of the LDS http://www.familysearch.com go to records and places. ,type in Bromberg or whatever town and you will find German churches going back as far as Lutherism. Some areas may have been officially in the kingdom of Poland but they were not Polish. Again ,when you look at the "Polish kings", how many were Polish ? And as I have found out ,all dukes, kings of Poland pleadged allegiance to emperor, they had to, because they received land lien, on loan and if the son did not want to pledge allegiance, the land went back to the empire. That was the feudal law system. And it would be interesting to read the 1466 Treaty of Thorn, but I can tell you already, the emperor and the pope declined it in 1467, therefore it is not ratified, it is void. The emperor was still overlord of Prussia, even when Albrecht of Brandenburg Ansbach Prussia Hohenzollern pledged allegiance to his uncle Sigismund I (of the Jagiello Habsburg family). Albrecht was put under ban. So there are many different histories to everything and the Lutheran history is in opposit to the Catholic history. I just hope that many more people where you live, go and look at actual history in contrast to the official state histories. On the Schwiebus question I can tell you that I looked for Zuellichau (Polish Sulichow ?) on the Silesia map and it was not on there.I know my grandmother was born in Zuellichau, I have been there as child during bomb attacks on Berlin. Then I found out that officially Zuellichau has been in Brandenburg since ca 1450. But my family still considered it Silesia. I did find it on the Brandenburg map. On that 997 year for first time mentioning of Danzig ( Gyddancyk). Danzig as Gothiscandza -Gothic coast is mentioned centuries earlier. 997 AD is the year when the first Polish attempt together with St Adalbert to take over Prussians failed. And since Posen then stood under Magdeburg and Adalbert ( who had baptised Hungary) was educated at Magdeburg ,the German and Hungarian post office issued a commemorative stamp in 1997. On Lithuania, read the wikipedia on Lithuania and Latvia Riga. Many of these parts were ultimately under the empire. That is why it is so important to actually look at all the rulers ,their families and the dynasties of that time. That big "Polish" kingdom of the 15th century, largest land in Europe is more a myth, perpetuated by English speaking people in the 19 and 20 century, who had a great interest to have the European empires disappear. It is, what is called here "in the best interest of the economy". H.J. - To szopen, Hallo and Happy New Year, Thanks for your detailed message to me. I am not a home for several days and do not have my collection of materials and books with me. Here is a website address that shows some Prussian Belarus Lithuanian Polish info http://www.belarusguide.com/as/history/jermal1.html This site shows you the Prussian and Yatvigian Jatwinger land, which was later to the south conquered by Masovians.

The German Heimatvertriebene (expelled from homeland) are aware of Stalin having moved many people from Ukraine Belarus etc into German lands taken over after 1945 .Poland first tried to move Poles there, but many left again to go to the actual Poland (not the German part under Polish administration).

Many people got hurt with WWI and II and many other wars since then. Therefore it is important to look at the causes effects on who profits from all this.

When I get to my computer I will write more again. H.J.

Thanks for the article on the Slavic peoples. It was very interesting! As H.J. says, not all Americans keep our heads stuck in the sand. (BTW, I'm gonna move Slavic Peoples to Slavic peoples per Wikipedia naming conventions. --Dmerrill

Hi, Szopen. I took liberty of editing your last reply on H.J./Talk page. Just mostly some English language details, I thought, might need a little polishing. Great article and great reply!! I enjoyed reading it. Czuwaj! Mruk

szopen -- in English, we usually say Adrianople. That's why it was the was it was.

Yes. I was just about to say this. Adrianople, in English, like Constantinople. --MichaelTinkler - Sure, why not? More links are usually good. I wonder if it might not be better as a footer than a header, though I am not convinced my idea is right :)

By the way, I found an interesting website, www.onwar.com, that seems to have a very complete list of wars and so on. I noticed you were having a little trouble with the way we silly English feel we must "translate" names, so I thought you might find it a useful resource for the proper names of battles and wars in English. -- Paul Drye

I think we have all done the rounds with Frau Jonat. So long as she stays out of the Vikings and Norse mythology I will be happy, but if you need any moral support, you'll get plenty from myself (sjc), MichaelTinkler and JHK who have all probably had some of what you're getting. Good luck and kind regards sjc To szopen,just a short note to say thank you for your nice message. H.J.. Hi Szopen! 13 YEAR war, not years! Still too lazy to set up my own page. Here is my address: mruk@email.com Czekam, J-23. Sorry, mruk, it is Years, at least in English (like Hundred Years War, Thirty Years War, Seven Years War, Seven Weeks War): the construction "Six-Day War" is a more recent innovation. David Parker Re: King Jadwiga - no problem: where I'm wrong let others correct me, as long as they know what they're talking about (I assumed it was just another piece of the inane babble that certain people keep putting into these articles). Maria Theresa was a king too, apparently, though Jadwiga's sister Mary seems commonly to be referred to as queen. Regards, David Parker