User talk:T00h00

Welcome
Hello  and welcome to Wikipedia! I'm glad you've chosen to join us. This is a great project with lots of dedicated people, which might seem intimidating at times, but don't let anything discourage you. Be bold!, explore, and contribute. If you want to learn more, Bootcamp teaches you the basics quickly, Tutorial is more in-depth, and Topical index is exhaustive. The following links might also come in handy: Glossary FAQ Help Manual of Style Five Pillars of Wikipedia Float around for awhile until you find something that tickles your fancy. One easy way to do this is to hit the random page button in the navigation bar to the left. There are also many great committees and groups that focus on particular jobs. My personal favorite stomping grounds are Translation into English and Cleanup for sloppy articles. Finally, the Wikimedia Foundation has several other wiki projects that you might enjoy. There are a few crucial points to keep in mind when editing. Be civil with users, strive to maintain a neutral point of view, verify your information, and show good etiquette like signing your comments with four tildes like this: ~ If you have any more questions, always feel free to ask me anything on my talk page or ask the true experts at Help desk. Again, welcome! -- Draeco 00:42, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Turing-completeness of Haskell
Hi T00h00, I still see you asking about Haskell's Turing completeness on polymorphism (computer science). I don't think that's an appropriate place to continue the discussion.

I forgot to mention that I went to work on declarative programming as that seems to be the stem of your confusion. But seems you found out on your own. I really don't appreciate the revert you did, instead you should try to study how these things really are. I know you threated on the talk page to revert, but I did try to explain to you on the talk page. Where did you learn about these topics in the first place? --TuukkaH 00:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello TuukkaH,

I guess this will get to you -- I don't really know how User Pages work --


 * Well, when I edited this page, it got added to my Watchlist so all edits of this page appear there now.

So where is the appropriate place to discuss whether Haskell is UTM?


 * I think this is the best place so we don't disturb others with such low-level details.

Is Haskell UTM?


 * Haskell is a Turing-complete programming language as the page on Turing completeness says. This doesn't mean it's an Universal Turing Machine but this is related: Haskell programs can be written that simulate an UTM. I hope you see the difference. Further, no programming language looks like a Turing machine and no computer works just like a Turing machine with the heads and unlimited tapes. There are programming languages that are basicly based on that model with assignment statements and memory locations, but there are also programming languages based on other, equivalent models, such as pure functional languages like Haskell on lambda calculus.

You have identified the stem of my confusion -- what is the flower of my confusion? In other words, what statements of mine are incorrect?


 * There's plenty, I think because you've started from some false ideas. How to deal with them? I've taken some facts from the related articles to the end of my reply.

I'm sorry I missed your explanation on the talk page -- I just 20 minutes ago, 4:30 pm Sunday, US-Pacific time, modified Declarative Programming and I saw no discussion in Discussion, so I reverted and provided plenty of discussion, with citations.


 * I'd done my edits a day earlier, but no problem: I assume good will. We can always discuss.

Sorry, "study how these things really are" is too vague for me -- I need a place to start -- such as "your statement blah-blah-blah is incorrect and here's where to read to get corrected".


 * Basicly I must have trouble being explicit enough, because to me these things are almost trivialities and if I go look up one of the linked pages they seem to agree with me, but perhaps that's just the way I read them. It's also difficult to give references, because these things build on one-another, so even if you can find explanations of Turing machine and Haskell, they are on so different levels that you can't directly contrast them if you haven't gathered the intuition. Besides, I'm not a teacher and probably I'm not good at teaching ;-)

I learned through 22 years in the trenches -- assembler, Pascal, Cobol, Fortran, Ingres, Oracle, Sybase, Java, Perl, the brand of optimizer used in the Singapore Airport (name forgotten), EJB, Corba, Unix, XML, MQ Series, Advoy.com, buy.com, Bank of America bill presentment, Seagate shareholder lawsuit emulation, loan approval, telecomm RTUs, high-voltage transmission equipment databases.

TH 00:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * A lot of respect to you then! But this is what I meant somewhere earlier when I said that computer people on Wikipedia come from so different fields. I've programmed in BASIC, assembler, C, Java, POSIX shell, Scheme, Python. But then I've also studied computer science and learned C++, Haskell, plus theory such as automata, computability, principles of programming languages, type theory, lambda calculus. I lack a lot in industry experience but I have many theoretical studies in fresh mind. I hope you appreciate that, at least when we're working on topics that are theories instead of applications.


 * So, I hold that the following are true:
 * "Declarative programming includes both pure functional programming and logic programming." Declarative programming
 * "Representative examples of declarative programming languages include Oz, Prolog, Haskell --" Declarative programming
 * "The lambda calculus is universal in the sense that any computable function can be expressed and evaluated using this formalism. It is thus equivalent to Turing machines." Lambda calculus
 * "In computability theory a programming language or any other logical system is called Turing-complete if it has a computational power equivalent to a universal Turing machine; a simplified model of a programmable computer." Turing completeness
 * "Turing machines are extremely basic symbol-manipulating devices which — despite their simplicity — can be adapted to simulate the logic of any computer that could possibly be constructed." Universal Turing machine
 * "A Turing machine that is able to simulate any other Turing machine is called a universal Turing machine (or simply a universal machine)." Universal Turing machine
 * "For instance, modern computers are actually instances of a more specific form of computing machine, known as the random access machine. The primary difference between this machine and the Turing Machine is that the Turing Machine uses an infinite tape, while the random access machine uses a numerically indexed sequence (typically an integer field)." Universal Turing machine
 * "Most programming languages, conventional and unconventional, are Turing-complete. This includes:
 * All general-purpose languages in wide use.
 * Imperative languages such as Ada and C
 * Object-oriented languages such as Java.
 * Most languages using less common paradigms
 * Functional languages such as LISP and Haskell.
 * Logic programming languages such as Prolog.
 * All or most spreadsheets, because all or most of them have more than enough logic, and can execute loops via cyclic dependencies." Turing completeness
 * "The specific language features used to achieve Turing-completeness can be quite different; FORTRAN systems would use loop constructs or possibly even GOTO statements to achieve repetition; Haskell and Prolog, lacking looping almost entirely, would use recursion. Turing-completeness is an abstract statement of capability, rather than a prescription of specific language features used to implement that capability." Turing completeness
 * "It is difficult to find examples of non-Turing complete languages, as these languages are very limited (see, however, machines that always halt). One example is the database language SQL." Turing completeness
 * We can start with these. --TuukkaH 02:10, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

By the way . ..
I haven't read your last entry (above), but I wanted to say that I back-edited my last entry to "Declarative Programming" ("Limitations of declarative languages (with citations)"), having decided that my first posting was too testy.

So if you read it, please read it again.

Reading your entry above is now at the top of my list, Wikipediawise.

TH 02:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks on lambda.
Thank your for the background on your thinking. Since the lambda calculus has been around since the 1930s, I must have learned about it and conflated it (properly) with UTM. "Church realized by 1936 that his lambda calculus could express every function that could ever be computed by a machine; he and Turing concluded that their formulations were equivalent, and Turing came to Princeton to study with Church between 1936 and 1938."


 * I hope that you understand what 'equivalent' means there. It means that both UTM and lambda calculus are full models of computation, they are both Turing-complete. It doesn't mean they look the same at all, an important aspect of a programming language. There are also other equivalent models, but I haven't studied them closely.

I believe it's easy to find examples of non-UTM languages: Every XML language is non-UTM. Regular expressions are non-UTM. The language of Windows (or KBE, etc.) is a powerful but awkward and nontextual and non-UTM langauge whose lexicals are click, double-click, drop-down, type "ABC", choose menu item, right-drag, mouse-wheel-down, Page Up, etc. Any data entry system that slaps your hand or corrects you when you type something wrong is probably a non-UTM language. Usually they're so simple that we don't call them languages, but that choice is arbitrary. Your telephone dial has a language -- 55512345 is identical to 5551234 in that language; 555123 is syntactically invalid; years ago, 16795551212 was invalid (when the middle digit of an area code was constrained to 0 or 1). There's no meaningful difference between these non-UTM languages and Singapore's expert systems rule "Baggage conveyor type 103B223Q cannot unload Boeing 767s".


 * Now we come to the question of what is a language. Intuitively, we often use language to mean something that is somehow of general purpose. On the other hand, the quote about finding non-Turing-complete languages probably just contracts and actually means "non-Turing-complete programming language". Yet in theoretical computer science and mathematics language has the formal, well-defined specific meaning of being a set of strings: strings in the set belong to the language. Nothing deep.

I propose that we move the discussion back to the encyclopedia pages, as Wikipedia is designed for them to stand on their own and cover the issues. So I'm hopping back to Declarative Programming, which seems to be the hot spot now.

TH 03:59, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I still feel like we barely touch the world yet. That is, it isn't considered polite to write long texts and discuss one's own theories even on the article talk pages.


 * Specifically, your newest (and long) comment on Talk:Declarative programming is based on a term "Realistic Universal Turing Machine (RUTM)", which I haven't heard of and there are 0 hits on Google. So anything related to it is your personal, original research. And at least to me it doesn't look like interesting research, because (1) you don't give an exact definition, (2) even C isn't an UTM at all, let alone "Realistic", (3) Turing machines is not the theory you want to think about when you try to say which programming languages are clumsy and which are not.


 * My take on this is that Turing-completeness is only one aspect of categorizing languages and not a very interesting one. And forget about UTM, no language is an UTM. The reason why Turing-completeness is not so interesting to me is that it's either all or nothing, whereas there's a wide variety of different programming languages that fit separate purposes, and something in the middle is a line called Turing-completeness. You wouldn't want to write a big modern system in an assembler, you wouldn't want to write device drivers in BASIC. As the article on Turing-completeness says, there are programming languages that are very advanced but they are designed to not be Turing-complete, because the only thing Turing-completeness really means to a language is that you can write programs that hang. And remember, I'm not advogating any of those languages (the only I know is SQL), I just acknowledge they exist. There are also imperative languages that are not Turing-complete: there are at least "macro languages" that lack both unlimited loops and unlimited recursion.


 * Now things that are interesting in programming languages are what kind of abstraction means they provide, how they help write big systems while avoiding bugs, what kind of I/O-capabilities they have etc. You want to dismiss programming languages that use another computational model without studying any of their advantages. If you've been in the industry for two decades I can still fully understand that you have managed to skip lambda calculus and functional and logic programming, as they're not popular there. They are used, but they are not as popular as C or Java. But perhaps you'd want to try one, to see very different languages, to learn new programming patterns, to understand the wider field of programming theory. If you choose not to, you have to trust others on these issues. --TuukkaH 10:26, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Static vs. dynamic typing Tradeoffs Polymorphism in object-oriented programming
Hello. I removed the question about objects not having the talk method which you had added to this article. I don't think it helps the tone of the article. What do you think?

Also, do you think the statement about run time vs. compile time errors needs to be removed? It's not exactly relevant to the Polymorphism article. --Nkv 08:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Opioids & Refractory Depression
Hi TH, it seems like we share a cause. The ignorance surrounding the useful role of opioids as antidepressants is causing untold needless suffering, and we're trying to replace ignorance with knowledge.

This summary I wrote may be of interest to you: http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149621

Here's a more detailed discussion: http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147234&page=2&pp=10

Keep up the life saving work... Rearden Metal 03:19, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Neuroendocrine tumors
I'd like to thank you for your recent contributions to Neuroendocrine tumors. I am pleased to see that you have listed so many citations on the talk page for your new contributions. However, in future edits to the article, it may become difficult to identify the source for each assertion. We have a page at Footnotes which describes some useful formatting options for tying references to the content, which may help in this regard. If you have any questions on how to use it, feel free to ask at my talk page. --Arcadian 07:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Harvard referencing
Please stop adding your personal opinions to the articles on Harvard referencing. If you want to make claims about where it's used, or its advantages and disadvantages, you must find a reliable source who says what you want to say. If you can't find one, maybe that should tell you something. Please review the content policies, particularly WP:NOR and WP:V. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 05:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

3RR
Toohoo, you have violated the 3RR rule at Harvard referencing. This states that we're not allowed to revert another editor's work more than three times in 24 hours. Any undoing of someone's work count as a revert; it need not be a revert to a previous version in its entirety. Please review WP:3RR carefully and take the opportunity to revert yourself, or you may be reported and blocked from editing. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, if you post a reply on your own talk page, I'll only see it if I have your page watchlisted, and even then perhaps not, so the best way to make sure someone gets a message is to put on their talk page, and then they do get notified. Whichever way you do it is up to you though; some people prefer replying on their own talk pages to keep the responses together. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

You do have to revert your last edit at Harvard referencing to avoid a report. Cheers, SlimVirgin (talk) 04:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry; I made a mistake. I misread the time. I've therefore self-reverted your self-revert. :-) My apologies! SlimVirgin (talk) 05:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding reversions made on November 6 2006 to Harvard referencing
You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. The duration of the block is 8 hours. William M. Connolley 09:36, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense edits
One word: Stop. - Lucky 6.9 04:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Epilog
After Lucky posted that message here, I posted this message on his or her talk page:

Lucky 6.9, I did an experiment yesterday in the sandbox. It didn't work. So I thought, I'll go do the experiment on the Talk page of Neuroendocrine Tumors, where I know I won't be bothering anybody. But you deleted it. Am I causing a problem for somebody by doing the temporary experiment there? Also, you reverted "to last version by 68.127.171.250)". That was also me -- for some reason I was not logged in when I made about 7 edits that day. Over 99 percent of the edits to the Talk page, and over 99 percent of the edits to the Article page, are by me. So I can't figure out why you reverted to the version by 68.127.171.250. Did you not bother to look at the nature of the changes since then? Only my last edit -- yesterday -- Edit Summary says "exp" for "experiment" -- is experimental. Please explain the problem. Thank you. TH 17:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Lucky never responded to that message. Apparently he or she did not think that it was uncivil (see WP:Civility) (a) to squash my experiment before asking me about it or checking my edit history on that page; nor (b) to command me imperiously to "stop" my harmless experiment; nor (c) to use the phrase "nonsense edits" to describe my experiment; nor (d) to fail to respond to my inquiry about what happened.

I put the page back as it was before my experiment and Lucky's revert.

TH 04:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Query
You created a page called Exp2 and the content was "This is exp2." Then you recreated a page called Eep1 and redirected it to Exp2. Can you explain, please? SlimVirgin (talk) 08:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

E-mail
Would you mind e-mailing me, please? You can use this link. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 23:16, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry that the link didn't work. If you go to my user page, then to the toolbox in the lower left-hand column at the side of the page (underneath the Wikipedia logo), and click on "e-mail this user," that should work. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I would have preferred to discuss this by e-mail, but I'll do it here if you prefer. Your editing at Harvard referencing, the page moves against objections, the reverting against multiple editors, the long posts on talk even though no one is responding, the vandalism to WP:CITE, and the nonsense edits, are adding up to a picture of disruption that will almost certainly see admin action taken against you if it continues. So what I'm trying to find out is: what are you trying to achieve? There may be some way to get there without this degree of pain, and I'm willing to help if I can, and if I understand where you're coming from. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to discuss those issues one at a time.

I'd like to start with the "HR" name. Are you ready to change the name of the article? Or do we go to some kind of mediation, in which I present evidence from google.com, The Chicago Manual of Style, The University of Toronto, The University of Maryland, the MIT-Microsoft Mayfield Handbook, the APA Manual, Turabian, the MLA Handbook, the MLA Style Manual, Howell, Webster’s, Newcastle Law, and the University of Calgary -- and you present whatever evidence you have?

And to answer your larger question: I am trying to achieve the highest quality in Wikipedia. Based on evidence, not on a vote by three or four people.

I think some of your confusion about my goals can be cleared up if you think of the history of our disagreements. At the beginning you asked me for citations. When the citations went massively against your preferences, but you acquired a couple of allies, you switched to the popularity-contest view. But your allies do not read the sources, so they make statements such as "some people use the ampersand" and introduce terminology that none of the authorities use, and make other mistakes that I have documented thoroughly on the Talk page. So while you seem to me to be thinking "what is the most popular opinion expressed at HR:Talk?", I am thinking "what is a correct format that will not get a student's paper marked down for bad citations if the student relies on HR when writing a paper?"

If you look back at the entire history of our disagreements, it appears to me that you have never supported your editing with any fact or citation (see WP:verifiability). Please show me one if you can find one.

I'm curious: you know Wikipedia much better than I do. Why didn't you ever propose mediation?

You have not yet answered the question I asked you: why did you revert many times, after publicly committing yourself to just one revert?

TH 03:19, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Cease & desist
Please stop pestering User:SlimVirgin and User:FeloniousMonk. You have broken numerous Wikipedia guidelines, amongst which are:


 * Three-revert rule
 * Harassment
 * Civility
 * No personal attacks
 * Assume good faith

I suggest you read through these guidelines and, once you realize what you have done, apologize to the said users. I am also obliged to give you the following warnings:

It seems to me that you are acting in an uncivil manner. Please remain civil and don't resort to making personal attacks or instigating edit wars.
 * Please stop. If you continue to make personal attacks on other people, you will be blocked for disruption. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Thank you.
 * Wikipedia guidelines dictate that you assume good faith in dealing with other editors. Please stop being uncivil to your fellow editors, and assume that they are here to improve Wikipedia.  Thank you.
 * [[Image:Stop hand.svg|left|30px]]

In addition, please stay away from my own talk page - your comments are unwelcome there. If you would like to object to this post, reply to it here or make a formal objection.

└ VodkaJazz / talk ┐ 21:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice work on Fundamental attribution error
I noticed your rework of the introduction to "Fundamental attribution error". Good job. --Comaze 08:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- and you sure noticed it fast! I plan to make some more changes -- let me know if any of them bother you. TH 08:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the references.
I have started looking at the opioid article, since I believe it can be much improved. Thank you for the excellent references you provide, and please make comments if you feel I misinterpret some of the deductions / points they reference - I may not have immediate access to all of those. I see that when you did that on the Harvard reference talk page the other editors just shut up when you provided references, an indication that they have little to offer other than personal opinions. Incidentally, do you have any idea what is happening there? I agree that the title is an idiosyncrasy and presently a mistake, and that may be related to the earliest editors of Wikipedia having a localised US knowledge, which - likely due to indifference as much as ignorance - has now been propagated as "generally accepted" and "world wide" fact. Is that what the vague, legalese and unreferenced "warning" from VodkaJazz was all about? If so, very strange... But I'm digressing; what I wanted to say was that if ever there is an issue with persons objecting to your writing decent references, please let me know. Like you, I believe that in the end scientific quality should prevail over semi-knowledge opinions, and many editors on Wikipedia have yet to know how little they know. Regards. --Seejyb 10:24, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Re OPIOIDS: Again someone deleted the paragraph about senile dementia, etc., because they didn't like my word "prohibited". Perhaps I should have said "silently prohibited" or "prohibited by exclusion from published authorities on indications". I restored the paragraph without the word "prohibited". There are some "100 percenters" out there who are so opposed to all use of opioids, aside from physical pain relief, that they want to squash every hint of the idea. I think the best way to battle such anti-sunshine people is to take advantage of Wikipedia's strong CITATION policy, and copy the quotes to the Article, as I did for one Abse citation -- sorry, I don't have the time to do more now.


 * Re AUTHOR-DATE: Yes, I presented a tremendous amount of evidence for the idea that "author-date system" is a much better name than "Harvard referencing". My opponents presented no evidence of their own, presented no counter-arguments to my evidence, and instead used their personal power to block editing to the page; then they maligned and threatened me on my user page. I see they have released their block, so I have again changed the name (including new evidence that I didn't have before -- the Oxford Style Manual).


 * Re WIKIPEDIA ADMINISTRATORS: I have read on the web, outside WP, that SlimVirgin is an employee or personal friend of Jimmy Wales. I have read that administrators get their friends (possibly sock puppets) to gang up on people who say things they don't like (after insisting on citations from others but providing none themselves). Perhaps these practices have a good side, saving administrators time when dealing with crackpots or axe-grinders. Of course I have no way to verify these rumors.


 * TH 04:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Author-date
Hi TH, I do not think any appeal will make a difference, and the whole fight is really about a minor issue. I see that there are already three redirects from various spellings of author-date to the Harvard reference article, so the issue is really what would be the "main article". From a reader's point of view, if the redirects are valid, then what is the "main article" is quite irrelevant. On the other hand, what is relevant is whether the name Harvard referencing appears in the main authoritative works. If it cannot be found in, for instance, the Oxford Style Manual, then the article should note that, else a user will go looking in the manual for a non-existent entry. It would be quite scientific to say "The following standard works (list of works) do not refer to the system as "Harvard referencing", and in these manuals details about the system should be sought under the entry "author-date" referencing" (or whatever the case may be). I have not had the opportunity to look; do these manuals not mention Harvard at all? If not, that is certainly noteworthy, since other editors of this page seem to think they have the world's knowledge sewn up. In summary, I do not foresee that a change in name for the main article about the author-date system would survive, whether it is justified or not. What does matter is that the person looking for information gets the right info about the use of the name, which includes what the system would be called in the standard manuals. If that is sufficiently different from Wikipedia's use, then Wikipedia will look the fool, and if that is perceived, then things may change naturally. --Seejyb 11:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Please contact me
Hi TH, I have some very interesting suggestions about your hassles on this site. Please contact me by e-mail, the link on my user page is active. regards --Seejyb 19:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)