User talk:Tango/Archive08

Your puerile threats
Tango, don't be wet. Block my ip address and I'll get another. Block my ID and I'll get another. You would be much better off using reasoned, logical argument. Or are you too powerful/stupid for that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.132.159.170 (talk) 15:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe this is a shared IP address, in use by AstraZeneca.

--A different 193.132.159.170 (talk) 13:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

In that case, why not block it? Don't just hide up there in Durham Uni, using their computers to issue threats.Address129.234.8.61 (talk) 21:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thomas, I don't expect you to be any more impressed than I was at your attempt at sockpuppetry. When all is said and done, you have threatened to block me for putting a POV in an article, so block me and stop acting like a little Adolph.Address129.234.8.61 (talk) 10:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sockpuppetry? Did I forget to log in at some point? If so, that was an innocent mistake, not an attempt at sockpuppetry. You haven't vandalised the article since I gave you your final warning, so why would I block you? --Tango (talk) 12:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Meetup
Hi there, I noticed you expressed interest in the Birmingham meetup last October. Just letting you know, another UK meetup is in planning stages, here. We need input on where and when we will meet so comments would be much appreciated. Thanks.  Majorly  (talk) 16:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for January 14th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 09:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

What should I do to undelete my article
Hallo:

You deleted my article on omnovia. If you review the article you see that it is not advertising but information about a company. There are names of competitors as well as a presentation on the general new technologies.

Would you please tell me what needs to happen for you to reconsider it?

Danke Schoen,

Peter

--Pchenomn (talk) 02:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of Damory Coaches
This is absolutely ridiculous. Plain stupid! At 21:06pm I got a message on my talk page saying that Damory had come up for speedy deletion. Now, I know that is is notable, as it was an article about a bus operator, just like any other one. Maybe it did need to show more significance in the intro - which I would have done happily. But before I could even add the "Hang-on" tag, at 21:08pm, you deleted the page. I spent around 20 minutes of my time making the article, to try and help Wikipedia expand on the Go-Ahead Group. Yet as soon as I get warned there is a small problem, I don't even get a chance to fix it. Two minutes it was, just two. No one could have got the hang on tag on the page in time, as I responded immediately. Now I was wondering whether to continue editing and help Wikipedia as it was, but this is the final bloody straw. There is no sense in what happened here at all. Why doesn't someone go and delete every bus-related article on Wikipedia. -- Arriva436 (talk) 21:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * And, if you look at the log, if was 21:07 the page was marked, so that makes it around one minute! -- Arriva436 (talk) 21:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for replying on my user page. If it would be possible, I would be very grateful if you could "undelete the article and move it to a subpage of my user page". I do realise that companies aren't automatically notable, and was working towards this, but I do accept I should have done it sooner. On the time it was deleted in, fair enough if you didn't notice, I admire administrators for what they do and I'm sure things need to be done quickly! So as I said, if you could move the page onto a subpage of my user page for me to work on it would be brilliant! Thanks -- Arriva436 (talk) 16:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Done! --Tango (talk) 16:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much!!!! -- Arriva436 (talk) 16:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for January 21st, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 00:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: huggle
Show, or at least allow easy access to, contribs and user talk page when automatically bringing up block dialog box. (I like to make sure the previous warnings were valid before blocking.) --Tango (talk) 11:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm. Would you prefer I make the form non-modal, so you can switch back to huggle and check the user's contribs/talk page through that, or would you prefer I add links to the block form that brought up the user's contribs/talk page in your web browser? – Gurch 12:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Either would work. I think having them open in the web browser is slightly better since it gives more freedom for checking the contribs (can open them in tabs and flick back and forward between the edits and the associated warnings, for example). --Tango (talk) 12:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Tango!
Since I've found you in the recent AfD on Adult-child sex not too opposed to the general idea to strengthen our encyclopedia with reliable, comprehensive, substantial, and essential material also on unpopular topics, and since you obviously have a basic grasp of German, I've been meaning to ask about your support.

A thought I've been harboring lately is putting up an essay within my userspace on the main source for my draft (which is Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg 1985/88) to one day maybe be moved to Wikipedia, WikiBooks, or WikiEssays. I'd once put this up on the German Wikipedia as an article and it held up for half a year, from May 2006 until January 2007, until someone on a personal revenge crusade removed it by means of an AfD (where votes were split 50:50 and of course most wanting to get it deleted did nothing more than point to their severe disgust, although that AfD actually lasted for 2 months before it was closed). This essay of mine was actually so influential that I found literal quotes lifted from it in a nation-wide newspaper endorsing them, that literal quotes were endorsed by a German General Medical Council, and just the same with an official brochure issued by an Austrian government department, I found my very own words in all those cases. Googling for it, I found that a number of people had saved personal backups of the article in various places on the web, and there also were several forums debating its content while linking to my article on Wikipedia.

So, I've been meaning to ask you if you'd be willing to have a look at my German essay after I'll have put it up in my userspace here on the English Wikipedia and tell me whether you think it's a good idea for me to translate it to English and for the time being leaving it as the draft of an English Wikipedia article in my userspace to one day maybe be moved to Wikipedia, WikiBooks, or WikiEssays. The basic idea of this essay of mine is a Wikipedia article on an existing work (Bleibtreu-Ehrenberg 1985/88), comparable to articles such as Civilization and Its Discontents and Dialectic of Enlightenment. --TlatoSMD (talk) 04:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt my German is good enough to be able to provide constructive criticism of an essay like that, sorry. I'm not quite sure what you intend this essay to be - is it an encyclopaedic description of the work, or an academic analysis of it? The latter would be original research and would be deleted pretty quickly. If it's the former, the only issue I can see is notability - as long as the work is notable enough to warrant an article about it, the subject matter shouldn't be an issue. The reasons given for deleting the Adult-child sex article were to do with the style of the article and the fact that much of it was duplicated, rather than the subject matter itself (although, the reasons people gave may not quite the real reasons, admittedly). --Tango (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It's supposed to be an encylopedic description, similar in concept to the existing articles Civilization and Its Discontents and Dialectic of Enlightenment, hence I've linked the two. The notability is cleared up right at the top as being the only academic work internationally beside Feierman largely using a sociobiological approach to the subject, while being actually more comprehensive and less ethnocentric and chronocentric than Feierman. --TlatoSMD (talk) 19:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think being one of a kind makes it automatically notable. It needs lots of independent discussion in the media, other academic papers, awards related to it, or something like that. --Tango (talk) 20:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

My Rfa
My effort to regain adminship was unsuccessful, But I wanted to thank you for taking some time out of your day to voice your opinion.--MONGO 19:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for January 28th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 04:25, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Bpeps and Rollback
I was rejected once then it was given to me and then itgot took off me and then that boy went mad or something about his cousin and he refused it before his hissy fit. I'm a good editor - I just got hot with a single editor which definately did not disrupt the project or surely not disable me from having a tool which a monkey could get after a week of RC - its unfair. It really is. Bp E ps - t @  lk 22:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Accusing someone of having a "hissy fit" is not the kind of behaviour I expect from someone requesting rollback. Learn to take "no" for an answer. Give it a month or two, there's no hurry. --Tango (talk) 22:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't accuse him of having a hissy fit he did it in front of everyone on his talk page. Wasn't my fault he went ape was it? I prayed for that guy when he was pretending to be involved in a terrible accident. Counter vandalism isn't about talk pages Tango. Its about soaping a mop and being able to deal with quick vandalism attacks quickly. Hey if I get a new account do you think it would like make be a born again wikipedian? Please give me roll back tango. no is so harsh. I've waited two weeks to ask already. Bp E ps - t @  lk 22:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It's calling it a "hissy fit" or going "ape" that's the problem - it's not an appropriate way to talk about a fellow Wikipedian. Making a new account won't help - no-one is going to award rollback to a brand new user. The fact that you seem so desperate to get it gives me serious concern - rollback isn't a reward, or a statement about you as a Wikipedian, it's a tool to help you out doing menial work. Don't make such a big deal out of it. The bigger deal you make of it, the less suitable you appear to be. --Tango (talk) 23:07, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ok i agree with you Comments on rollback policy Just think its unfair the way it seems to be policed at the moment. Bp E ps - t @  lk 23:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for February 4th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 08:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for February 11th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 14:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Pure Reason Revolution
A couple of weeks ago, you blocked User:Justpassinby for vandalising Pure Reason Revolution. He then tried to avoid the block by sockpuppeting: see Suspected sock puppets/Justpassinby. He's been making more subtle edits since, but some still seem to me to be vandalism, e.g. this one, while others strike me as gaming the system. Would you be so kind as to take a look at the situation? Bondegezou (talk) 15:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look. --Tango (talk) 15:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Bondegezou (talk) 15:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I've reverted his most recent edit and suggested he discuss the problems on the talk page. He seems to be using the talk page for related issues, so I expect he will take that advice. If he continues to remove the citations without establishing a consensus on the talk page, let me know. --Tango (talk) 15:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for February 18th and 25th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 07:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Huggle User Category
Hi there. I have seen that you use huggle by the fact that you have automatically updated the huggle white list(it does this when closing huggle). I was wondering if you would add the category to your user page so that it fills out and we know who actually uses huggle. If you do not want to you do not have to. I am also sorry if i have already talked to you about this or you no longer use huggle but i sent it to everyone that has edited the page since mid January. I hope we can start to fill out this category. If you would like to reply to this message then please reply on my talk page as i will probably not check here again. Thanks.  ·Add§hore·  T alk /C ont 18:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for March 3rd, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 08:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia email
could you possibly go in your preferences (in the top right of the screen) and enable an email address where users can mail you? You could use a hotmail or similar type which you've made solely for the purpose, that way it wouldn't breach any privacy. Only I could then send you that link.:)  The special, the random, the lovely Merkinsmum  19:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought I did have email enabled... very odd... I've done it now. --Tango (talk) 19:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You have mail.:)  The special, the random, the lovely Merkinsmum  19:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for March 13th and 17th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 02:29, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for March 24th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 08:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Your revert on 0.999....
"revert - should say "real", by denseness, rational is still true, but for the rest of of the sentence to make sense, it needs to be real"

x is infinitesimal if for every natural number n, nx < 1. In other word x is infinitesimal if x is smaller than 1/n for every natural number. Thus x is infinitesimal if it's smaller than every positive rational number. Sentence makes more sense with rational.


 * But if it's only smaller than every positive rational, that leaves open the possibility that it's still a positive real, since the reals are larger than the rationals. The sentence goes on to talk about the Archimedean property of the reals, so it needs to be a real number for that to make sense. Just relying on the rationals being Archimedean isn't enough, since that would still allow infinitesimal reals. --Tango (talk) 16:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism in articlespace from indef blocked user?
How is this possible if you've blocked him?LeadSongDog (talk) 05:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Interesting. It looks like I blocked him a few seconds after another admin did, that admin only blocking for 24 hours, and his is the one that took. A slight bug in the program I use for vandal fighting, it seems - it shouldn't have posted the notification. I'll check his contributions and see what should be done now. Thanks for letting me know. --Tango (talk) 12:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for March 31st, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 22:10, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Busy next Sunday?
Meetup? Hope it's not too short notice.  Majorly  (talk) 14:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi tango
can you please prove that that user:dark3345 has nothing to do with me please. im getting quite upset by admins being absolutely convinced that it was me. check out the link below. thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dark3345&action=edit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.215.172 (talk) 19:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How am I meant to do that? The evidence is not in your favour. --Tango (talk) 19:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

well what if that user had tried to frame me making death threats or something, surely it could have been proved then. I wish someone would check it out, because i'ts either a total coincidence, or it might be one of the other admins from our thread today i dont know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.215.172 (talk) 19:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll request a "checkuser" at WP:RFCU. Someone will check what IP addresses the account has been using and say if they are in the same range as the ones you've been using. If they are, that (in addition to the similarities in your writing style) is pretty conclusive proof that it is you. If they aren't, it doesn't tell us much - it could just mean you used a different computer. Proving two accounts are not related is pretty much impossible - the best we can do is show it's unlikely. Let's see what happens. --Tango (talk) 19:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Checkuser says you are unrelated: Requests for checkuser/Case/Dark3345. I guess it was just a strange coincidence. Hopefully we can all move on now.--Tango (talk) 19:59, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool, thanks for checking that out for me. I dont think it was a coincidence, i think it must have been a deliberate hoax. Anyway, danke schoen fur deine hilfe und gute nacht. Ich muss jetzt arbeit weil ich habe mein a levels in etwas ein monat! Und ja, Deutch ist ein von meine faecher! :-S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.77.133.250 (talk) 20:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

On the subject of your block this morning
While I disagree with the block you performed, the length of the block, and the rationale you provided, I want you to know I deeply respect and appreciate any admin trying to keep the pedia safe from incivility. I would also concur that some users push that envelope with more regularity and more severity than others, and concede that User:MONGO is a rowdier cowboy than many. MONGO is also a vastly experienced and savvy editor who chooses to walk a particularly dark beat, and generally speaking protects visible and important pagespace daily from the most vicious of vandals, actual trolls. He daily takes on administrative service and acts like a responsible admin, even without community endorsement or a toolkit. If I had any specific issue with your action, it was that you could have just as easily left a simple few friendly words, and those few words, coming from an uninvolved admin, would have carried some weight, and you might have had a more positive impact, with less molehill/mountain confusion. I just endorse a less process-oriented approach with MONGO in the future. BusterD (talk) 16:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments. If I thought a few friendly words would have had any effect, that's what I would have done. People have had such words with MONGO plenty of times in the past, and he hasn't learnt. I decided more affirmative action was required. --Tango (talk) 16:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I appreciate that MONGO's good faith dedication to being MONGO makes life more complicated from time to time, but the question becomes: did YOU ever had those few friendly words with MONGO? Don't you feel that you both being trusted and well-recognized users, you have an obligation to have a few civil words before lobbing a drive-by incivility warning on his talk for using WP:SPADE in the context of a hugely complex discussion? I don't mean to press this any farther (and MONGO, people love ya, but sometimes we tire of defending you from the same minor charge over and over), but in the case of extremely experienced users, first-level warnings seem somewhat insulting. BusterD (talk) 16:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I didn't have those words with him. I didn't see any point, since they have failed in the past. I'm not sure what you mean by a first-level warning - the warning I issued was in accordance with the ArbCom ruling, it wasn't a standard civility warning. --Tango (talk) 16:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You're correct about your warning; I meant to say "formal warnings". BusterD (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * A formal warning like that was required by the ArbCom ruling. --Tango (talk) 17:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, people like you being Admins are a liability to the project. Giano (talk) 18:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Giano, is Tango up for recall? 88.110.157.68 (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Recall for one good block on a frequently rude editor, who has been sanctioned by arbcom because of it? Don't be silly.  Majorly  (talk) 19:00, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd vote for recall. Tango didn't understnad the context of what he injected himself into. Thomas Basbol posted to MONGO's talk page when he has repeatedley been asked not to by MONGO. MONGO reverted him for trolling as he has done a number of times to this editor because, frankly, this editor trolls MONGO to get a rise out of him. Basbol complained about his actions being described as trolling (Basbol acknowledges that his account is a SPA so that is not an issue). Basbol tried to get an incivil comment out of my talk page as well. Tango warned MONGO about being incivil. MONGO reverted Tango's warning and basically told him he was a crappy admin for not understanding the whole situation and to get lost. Tango then blocked MONGO. --DHeyward (talk) 20:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I would vote for recall too. Giano (talk) 20:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your opinions. They are noted. --Tango (talk) 20:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You blocked for too long, yes, but he needed to be blocked. People have tip-toed around problems like this too long. I know where I stand: the need for cooperation is being greater than even the need for content. Many people can do good work, but they have to be able to do good work here. You're the kind of admin we need for situations like this, but it's easier to defend actions like blocks when they are moderate and proportional. DGG (talk) 20:52, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I appeared too harsh in my judgement of the TARIFF (Just in case zat Guy is reading) that you initially imposed on MONGO, but events bore out my observation here. Upon review I was also too lenient in my initial suggestion, and the 31 hour duration seems appropriate in context. I also think that you are correct in both applying the warning per ArbCom enforcement, and then acting upon it when it was immediately violated. I think you did, and am doing, the right thing. If this matter has given you pause to think that you might as for a quick review before acting similarly, then I would be pleased to provide an opinion. Cheers. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC) (and this is precisely the reason why I am not open to recall, it is never going to be called upon dispassionately).

Thank you all for your opinions. They are noted. :-) --Tango (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you read the header to Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement there is one caution to administrators which I think you'll now recognize the truth of "you should expect reactive behavior from those banned." As with any block, arbitration enforcement blocks tend to bring reaction from the blockee.  Unfortunately, it the mess made it to arbitration in the first place, there is usually a lack of consensus in the administrative community, so you often also get reactive behavior from the peanut gallery.  Good luck dealing with it.  My personal preference is to cut a little extra slack in terms of response to arbitration enforcement actions, but I suspect I am in the minority on that point, and don't even succeed all the time myself.  Think about your long run plan, should you intend to continue engaging in arbitration enforcement.  GRBerry 01:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I request recall as well. After what I read on ANI, I have no confidence in you possessing the mop. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 03:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I too request your recall as an administrator. &#10154; Hi DrNick ! 04:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm missing something, but could somebody point me to where Tango has indicated he/she is open for recall? - auburn pilot  talk  04:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * IMHO, this has all gotten way out of hand and way off-track. In my mind, this entire incident is about overreaction. MONGO overreacted while trying to deal with an admitted SPA. Tango felt compelled to react by posting a caution on his talk. MONGO had every right to deal his talk page any way he wanted, so he deleted the warning, and overreacted by saying Tango should be deadminned. Tango next overreacted by blocking MONGO a week. In discussion since then, Tango has been subjected to what I'll characterize as abusive comments from lots of what I normally consider pretty good editors. Overreaction. Less tried to end this in ANI talk this morning, but for some reason many people still want to pile on Tango. Now some are asking for recall. Overreaction. Overreaction is why MONGO has posted a retired notice on his user page (again). Sometimes I wish we could offer cool-down blocks (my pathetic attempt at irony). BusterD (talk) 05:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

You're wasting your time - I'm not open to recall. There is an ArbCom case filed against me (unless it's already been rejected - I haven't looked yet). If you want my mop, go over there and say so. --Tango (talk) 13:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

After reading much of the AN/I page it seems you made the correct decision. While it may have been your first civility warning, and a little long for a block, it seems the targets Arbitration and previous desysopping, showed a repeated issue with incivility. Hopefully you do not even consider leaving this project as the majority of people seem to believe you were correct. I hate to see good people driven off of the project for standing up for civil behavior. If you have a moment within all of this drama, please let me know the process one under goes to become and admin, preferable on my talk page if possible. Take care and keep your head high in knowing you made the correct decision. --I Write Stuff (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration
Please see    bishzilla     ROA R R! !     21:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC).

MONGO
Tango, I've discussed MONGO's block with the latest blocking admin, Orderinchaos, who doesn't mind if it's reviewed and undone. I would like to undo it entirely, because it has led to significant bad feeling, and because you and MONGO had been in dispute before over an uncivil edit summary (you posting it, him warning you). As MONGO has said he's retiring, it seems unnecessary to keep it going. Do you have strong objections to my unblocking? SlimVirgin talk| edits 02:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi again, this is let you know that I've unblocked, as there was significant concern about the block. I've left a comment here. I'd have preferred to wait until you were back online, but given that he'd already served 16 hours, and seems to have left because of the block, I felt it was important to undo it reasonably soon.


 * I completely support you in your concern about civility on the project, and I also support what you were saying about not wanting to see the definition of "involved" extended too much. However, I feel that people telling admins to "get lost," while not ideal, is not the place to start if we want to fight incivility, especially not when the editor is a long-term user in good standing, and when the comment was made while removing a post from his own talk page. We regularly let a great deal worse than that slide. I also feel that you've had a few run-ins with MONGO, which should have made you hesitate to block him unless the offence was particularly egregious.


 * Having said that, I see no reason not to believe you acted in good faith. I think this was just a mistake, and we all make them, so I hope both you and MONGO can put it behind you. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 06:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Good block (in that it prevented further misbehaviour from an editor with a long term behaviour problem). Terrible unblock (in that there was no consensus at AN/I or anywhere else that the revised block was unjust). Unblocking someone because they "have left" (how many times has MONGO "left" now? Every time he doesn't get his way, basically) is a particularly bad precedent to set. When MONGO next returns and starts being uncivil with someone because he doesn't like their edits, presumably Slim will take on responsibility for dealing with it? MONGO has only survived here so long because he has his fan club (or, to use one of his words, "enablers"), and here we see it again. Don't let the carping and criticism get you down; what you did was brave and just. Well done. --John (talk) 16:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It gives me the chills that administrators are allowed to talk like this. This mentality is destructive and hurts the entire project. 216.37.86.10 (talk) 15:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Break
Tango, Given the current situation, maybe it would be best if you considered a break, or change of pace for awhile. Possibly there are some other hobbies that you enjoy. You have good faith and everyone appreciates your attempts to resolve issues. There is no need to defend yourself, its just that some are better than others at resolving problems. I wish you the best in whatever endeavor you choose. Thank you. This is the only contribution by this ip account. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for comment
I have filed a request for comment at Requests for comment/Tango. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 15:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I strongly suggest that you ignore this RfC, in its current incarnation, per my talkpage comment. If somebody manages to word a neutral Request that notes MONGO's history as well as your own, the ArbCom from which this incident arose, as well as your conduct as an admin and contributor overall, as being part of the remit, then it should be considered on its merits. As is, this RfC attempts to legitimise a lynching. LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made the only comment I intend to on the RFC at this time. Once the ArbCom case is out of the way, we can move onto RfC's if people still want to. Splitting the discussion between multiple venues won't help anything. --Tango (talk) 16:03, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC etc.
Just a quick note to say thanks for what you did in re MONGO. I'm sorry about the trouble it has caused, and I don't know much about the technicalities that people are accusing you of violating, but the effect on the progress of the article is noticable. MONGO was prevented from turning the talk page into the familiar battleground that the ArbCom decision was designed to avoid. The dispute has been resolved and the tag removed (not by me). In this light, I think those who call your block punitive are very wrong (though I'm no doubt too involved for my opinion to count). The block was a fitting response to his rejection of the warning and continuation of the behaviour he was warned to stop.--Thomas Basboll (talk) 09:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It was all worthwhile then. Thank you for letting me know. :-) --Tango (talk) 13:51, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "Just a quick note to say thanks for what you did in re MONGO". Interesting comment, very interesting indeed. Minkythecat (talk) 10:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Civility restriction on MONGO
Dear Tango,

Can you please remove your civility restriction on MONGO?

Thanks, Andjam (talk) 22:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Aren't you going to even try and give a reason? --Tango (talk) 22:27, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I rather I didn't, because that'd mean criticising you. But if you promise not to block me...


 * The restriction, longer than anything handed by arbcom, is tainted by controversy. Admin consensus is that, at the very least, you blocked MONGO too long. (But least you're happy that you've pleased someone who has made personal attacks on MONGO) Do you think the 1-week block won't be mentioned whenever someone tries to enforce the civility restriction? If MONGO is as bad as you think (s)he is, then why not wait until another admin, who has dotted the "i"s and crossed the "t"s, to place a civility restriction on MONGO the next time MONGO is out of line? Thanks, Andjam (talk) 22:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not longer than anything handed by ArbCom - it's indefinite. That means the length is yet to be determined. It can be removed when MONGO demonstrates it is no longer needed. That could be next week, it could be never. Your point that it may be difficult to enforce it given the controversy of its imposition is a valid one - let's at least wait for the ArbCom case to be over before doing anything. Once they've made their rulings, a discussion at AN/I or AE can be had to determine what to do about the restriction (remove it, or endorse it). It can be removed without my consent if there is a consensus to do so - I will not oppose any such attempt (although I may offer my opinion in the discussion). --Tango (talk) 22:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * An indefinite restriction could be stopped tomorrow. But so could a hundred-year restriction, as wikipedia does not have Truth in sentencing, nor should it. Andjam (talk) 23:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess I viewed you withdrawing the restriction as a means to avoid the arbitration case, whereas you view the case as inevitable. Andjam (talk) 23:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I view the case as desirable. Not only do I want to bring up the issue of wheel warring, but I also think it's the best way to get proper closure on this matter. --Tango (talk) 23:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for April 7th and 14th, 2008.
Sorry, it seems that the bot quit before completing its run last week. Here is the last two weeks' worth of Signpost. Ralbot (talk) 09:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 09:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Tango
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Tango/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Tango/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, John Vandenberg (chat) 11:13, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for April 21st, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 16:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for May 2nd and 9th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 06:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for May 12th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 09:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Tango
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above. The Arbitration Committee finds that Tango has made a number of problematic blocks. It also states that Tango's administrative privileges are to be revoked, and may be reinstated at any time either through the usual means or by appeal to the Committee. John Vandenberg (chat) 02:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Question
Hi Tango, I reviewed your recent use of rollback, and found that you used rollback correctly: to revert vandalism. Would you like to be granted rollback rights? I don't see any reason not to give you them, apart from you maybe not wanting them. Best wishes. Acalamari 21:46, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be good, thanks. --Tango (talk) 21:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Rollback granted. Good luck. Acalamari 21:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --Tango (talk) 22:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! Acalamari 22:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Shitty deal
I am a little shocked at the result of the arbcom case. The whole case seems contradictory. A rule being created and applied retroactively, other offenses being over 4 months past, I just have to say that your desysoping seems punitive not preventative.

I am taking a nice long break from my admin tools, since it has become apparent to me that you can lose your bit for breaking a rule you had no way of knowing existed. I would hate to lose my tools because I violated a common sense fact that is not that common of a fact(or in this case not documented or discussed at all).

I try to have respect for arbcom, but this just seems whacked. It has been near impossible in the past to enforce civility on certain users with friends in high places, and now it has become clear that enforcing civility on certain people can lead to losing one's bit. Even if that is not arbcom's goal, the appearance of such a consequence is clear.

It has been said by arbcom that even if you did act objectively in the block of Mongo that the appearance of misconduct was there. If we are concerned about appearance and not just conduct then by the same token even if arbcom did sincerely think desysoping was a preventative measure, it has the strong appearance of being punitive.

What really galls me is that they went from a suspension to outright desysoping apparently because you argued against their brand spanking new rule on the talk page, saying that the community has never embraced such a rule. It seems to be that you are being punished for clinging to the reality that no such rule exists. Well, the arb in arbcom stands for arbitrary so I guess they can do that. It just seems to me to be a case of "This is the way the Wiki is, there is nothing on the wiki to show it, but it is real non-the-less, accept it or we will increase your punishment". Reality is such a funny thing

Wikipedia is not better off for this decision, it would have been far better if arbcom has addressed the issues leading to Mongo's block such as his incivility.

There is really nothing I can do about it but stop using my tools, I doubt it will have much effect but all I have to offer is my effort and that is all I have to take away. Peace. <font color="Red">1 <font color="Green"> != <font color="Red">2  13:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That's life, I guess... I'm completely baffled by it all. They removed my bit because I don't understand what I've done wrong - they're absolutely right! I was never the most active of admins anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. --Tango (talk) 14:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I also don't understand it, so I should not be using my bit either. <font color="Red">1 <font color="Green"> != <font color="Red">2  14:29, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I just came across this because I made reference to this case in a comment about an improper block made by User:Edokter, and decided to see how Tango was doing. It's a bit ironic. You got it. They removed your bit because you didn't understand what you had done wrong, and therefore you could not be trusted to not repeat the error, and it was a truly serious error. I will make an attempt to explain, and this is purely in an effort to help you understand, I'm not involved.


 * You used your tools, as I recall the case, because you considered MONGO's response to your warning on his own Talk page uncivil. User incivility on his own talk page is rarely an emergency, so if you considered his incivility to you to be a problem, then it was your duty to refrain from using your tools. Users often will react with anger to being warned, and, pretty much, they can say what they like on their own Talk page (at least MONGO's response did not go beyond what they can do.) If you drop a warning on a user talk page, and they respond "Fuck you!", that response is irrelevant, in fact. The incivility is a separate offense, if it is an offense, and it is not one for you to judge. If they ignore the warning, then you can block for the primary offense. If you even mention the incivility, it will look like retaliation, and, besides, it is irrelevant, so you don't mention it. In your defense, some argued that a user could avoid being blocked by simply insulting the administrator, but that's not true. You warn a user not to edit war. They insult you. They edit war. You block them for edit warring. Nobody would challenge this on the basis that you were retaliating for the insult. (Sensibly, in fact, if someone insults you for warning them, the best response is to laugh. "Very funny. But don't ignore the warning.") And a ladder of mirrors is not created. If you are seriously insulted by a user, you warn the user and go to AN/I. Warning isn't an administrative function, and warning notices don't even say, "I'm an admin, watch out!" An uninvolved administrator watches the situation. If the user insults you again after the warning, that second administrator blocks, no additional warning is needed.


 * I think that because of animosity toward MONGO, you got some bad advice from your friends (or, more accurately, from his enemies). I recall trying to warn you then about this. [User:Until (1 == 2)]]'s comment above, if he ever makes the same mistake, could be used against him. I.e., he shouldn't be using his bit in any similar situation, and, that he could say what he said, after all the explanation that was made about this, is worrying. I'd urge him, as well, if he reads this, to think about it. ArbComm's decision was quite predictable, see the case of User:Physchim62. If you are able to revise your opinion, and want your bit back, I think that all you'd have to do is to show ArbComm that you really do understand it now, and would not, therefore, make the same mistake again.


 * On the other hand, being an administrator, once the full weight of it is understood, is quite a mixed blessing, if it is a blessing at all. Believe me, there are much better things in life. I hope you are finding them.--Abd (talk) 04:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Request for Peer Review help
Thank you for you work as a peer review volunteer. Since March, there has been a concerted effort to make sure all peer review requests get some response. Requests that have gone three days or longer without a substantial response are listed at Peer review/backlog. I have three requests to help this continue.

1) If you are asked to do a peer review, please ask the person who made the request to also do a review, preferably of a request that has not yet had feedback. This is fairly simple, but helps. For example when I review requests on the backlog list, I close with Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). Yours, ...

2) While there are several people who help with the backlog, lately I have been doing up to 3 or 4 peer reviews a day and can not keep this up much longer. We need help. Since there are now well over 100 names on the PR volunteers page, if each volunteer reviewed just one PR request without a response from the list each month, it would easily take care of the "no response" backlog. To help spread out the load, I suggest those willing pick a day of the month and do a review that day (for example, my first edit was on the 8th, so I could pick the 8th). Please pick a peer review request with no responses yet, if possible off the backlog list. If you want, leave a note on my talk page as to which day you picked and I will remind you each month.

3) I have made some proposals to add some limits to peer review requests at Wikipedia_talk:Peer_review. The idea is to prevent any one user from overly burdening the process. These seem fairly reasonable (one PR request per editor per day, only four total PR requests per editor at a time, PR requests with cleanup banners can be delisted (like GAN quick fail), and wait two weeks to relist a PR request after it is archived), but have gotten no feedback in one week. If you have any thoughts on these, please weigh in.

Thanks again for your help and in advance for any assistance with the backlog. Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 21:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I haven't actually done any peer review work since I added my name to that list - I haven't been contacted. I thought the idea was that someone would contact me when an article on a subject I'm interested in came up, and then I'd help review it. I'm not really interested in reviewing random articles from a backlog list... --Tango (talk) 21:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem - I just asked everyone on the WP:PRV list if they would be interested in helping out. Thanks for being on the list! Ruhrfisch <sub style="color:green;">&gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 02:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for May 19th and 26th, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 07:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

RE: WP:RD/S suicide question
Perhaps leave your opinions on his/her talk page? I know I may seem a tad paranoid about this but I really don't feel comfortable giving any access to that sort of knowledge in a place where anyone in any emotional situation could see it. Regards, <font face="Tahoma" size="2px">CycloneNimrod talk? contribs? 16:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Spam in Chapter 9 (band)
Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Chapter 9 (band), by another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Chapter 9 (band) is blatant advertising for a company, product, group, service or person that would require a substantial rewrite in order to become an encyclopedia article. To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Chapter 9 (band), please affix the template to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that '''this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. To see the user who deleted the page, click here''' CSDWarnBot (talk) 22:31, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for June 2, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 08:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Vectors and scalars
Are you sure that you want to give the guy an answer to his homework 'for free' over on WP:RD/S? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't sure if it was a homework question or not, usually I would have given a vague answer and just pointed him in the right direction, but I couldn't think of any way to do that without just giving the answer. --Tango (talk) 16:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for June 9, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 06:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Good one
Diff. I seriously laughed out loud at this one. Plus the memory of the look of horror on my maths I lecturer's face when someone wrote that down may have helped. He was a really passive guy and, being a lecturer, he was quite eccentric so when he responded with "Now what the bloody hell does this mean?", my friend and I sprinted out of the room to have a laugh. Thanks. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 19:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Why, what happens?68.148.164.166 (talk) 20:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * See that thread on the Maths desk. When it's -1, it means one thing and when it's 2, it means something totally different. So when it's -2, it's very unclear. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

pubes

 * Also, my hair acts as an asymtote; it just drops off in length away from the areola, so is that normal?68.148.164.166 (talk) 20:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds normal to me. If you're concerned, you should see a doctor, but what you describe sounds perfectly normal to me, especially if the hair has only grown recently - more may grow in time and spread away from the areola, but then again, it may not, it varies from man to man. --Tango (talk) 21:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for June 23 and 26, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 08:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for June 30, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 04:26, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for July 7, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 09:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Speak truth to power
Well said sir. DuncanHill (talk) 21:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. --Tango (talk) 21:15, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, what he said. Algebraist 23:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Tango (talk) 01:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Seconded. <b style="color:#629632;">Celarnor</b> <sup style="color:#7733ff;">Talk to me  01:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Technically, that's third, but thank you for the sentiment! ;) --Tango (talk) 01:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for July 14 and 21, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 06:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!
In particular, you and Oded did much more than the others, so you both also recieve:

Ref Desk troll
Hi Tango. I pulled the buggery question from ExplodingAnus again--it was a post from the banned troll Light current, who has a long history of trolling and disruption on the Desks.

I don't mind that you were assuming good faith, but this is a known banned troll. (Do bear in mind the limits of WP:AGF, though&mdash;even if one doesn't know about Light current, is it really unreasonable to conclude that a new account called ExplodingAnus is a troll, given that his second edit is to bluelink his userpage and his third is to ask a question about buggery?) Cheers! TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

(To be clear, I do know that I didn't name him in the revert summary; in the past we've found that he likes to get as much attention and recognition as possible, so we're doing as strict a WP:RBI as possible. I apologize for any confusion that might cause, and I appreciate that it might be a bit confusing and abrupt for good-faith editors – like you – who might not be familiar with the circumstances around the case.  I apologise for taking out your answer with the section.)  TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm vaguely familiar with Light current, but I'm not sure how you can know that was him. Personally, I think the best way to deal with such trolls is to assume good faith and just answer their questions. He's trying to annoy us, RBI just shows him he's succeeding. If we just take him seriously and answer his questions, perhaps he'll get bored. --Tango (talk) 17:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for July 28, August 9, 11 and 18, 2008.
Sorry I haven't been sending this over the past few weeks. Ralbot (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd appreciate your input about WP:RD/H query content
...here, regarding this. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 05:06, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK chapter
I realise I could probably find the answer online if I tried, but I'm feeling lazy (feel free to tell me to fuck off if you want). What, exactly, does a local Wikimedia chapter actually do? Algebraist 01:26, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It general terms, it supports the goals of the the Wikimedia Foundation and community in the local country. This includes fundraising (a UK chapter can claim back the tax on donations from UK tax payers, which is a big benefit), organising events to publicise Wikimedia, dealing with the media, teaching people how to use Wikimedia projects, making partnerships with local content owners to release their content, that kind of stuff. Basically, it will help the local community with whatever activities it thinks of doing by providing funds and looking important so other important people take notice ("I'm the CEO of Wikimedia UK." sounds far better than "I'm a geek that wastes my life writing about Pokemon on a website." ;)). Local chapter FAQ might be of interest. --Tango (talk) 01:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Countably many thanks for your time. Algebraist 01:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

RE:Co-founder
Thanks for the kind head's up. It just seemed to contradict every other page on Wikipedia. But now that I just checked, the Jimmy Wales article also says he co-founded Wikipedia, which must have been changed recently. I'll self-revert for now. Do you know where I can find more information on this? If it was changed recently, there must have been rationale to do so. Thanks again. -- penubag  (talk) 07:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The Larry Sanger article has some details on the dispute. I'm not sure when the decision was made to add the "co-" to Jimmy's article, you would have to look through the history. The discussion probably took place on that article's talk page. --Tango (talk) 07:59, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for August 25 and September 8, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 21:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Zimbabwean dollar devalued rate
See the link here. This link is  References  of Zimbabwean dollar, which sentence is On 6 September 2007 the Zimbabwe dollar was devalued by 1200%. It says it's 1200%.--이형주 (talk) 11:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, The Times doesn't know what it's talking about then. Even if the calculation was done like that, it's 12,000%, not 1,200%. 30,000/250=120 and 120*100=12,000. I don't see any meaningful calculation that gets 1200%. --Tango (talk) 15:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

RefDesk notice
Per this discussion, I've rejigged this SciRef thread, in the process removing your helpful post among other unhelpful ones (which included my own unhelpful posts). Hope this is OK. Franamax (talk) 01:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's fine. --Tango (talk) 07:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you missed a word
between "should" and "write" -- Versa geek  08:20, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Oops! Thanks, I've added it now. --Tango (talk) 08:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK 2.0 Voting is open :-)
A warm hello to all those signed up as guarantor members of the soon-to-be-rebooted UK chapter! Voting is now open over at meta - there's tons of information online over there, and the mailing list has been very active too. Discussion, comment (and even the inevitable technical gremlins!) are most welcome at the meta pages, otherwise please do send in your vote/s, and tell a friend about the chapter too :-) Privatemusings (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC) I'm not actually involved in the election workings, and am just dropping these notes in to help try and spread the word :-) I welcome any or all comment too, but 'election related' stuff really is better suited to the meta pages :-)

Draconian editing style
Okay, granted, I'd not seen the box about the arguments page for the 0.999 article. But there was no need for you to just move my discussion post without any justification. It was only after I undid your move that you even bothered to suggest a reason... and you directed me, quite unhelpfully to a box. It seems, after reading some of the other posts on your own discussions page, that this is not the first time you have adopted such an attitude. I suggest, for the good of the community, that you change your approach. You are not God and you need to explain to users why you have done what you have done. That is, of course, unless you wish to have your admin status revoked.

Declan Davis (talk) 23:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll be pleased to hear, my admin status was revoked several months ago. I assumed you would follow the link, read the notice at the top of the arguments page and be able to work out for yourself why I moved it. Why didn't you do that? --Tango (talk) 23:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * As I already said: I didn't see the box. After reading your last comment I can see that you're just proving my point for me: you're a bad tempered and generally unhelpful individual. People spend time and effort contributing to Wikipedia, and for you to just stamp on people's sand castles without a care in the world is terrible. Okay, fair enough, some of those sand castles may need to be demolished for one reason or another, but at least take the time and effort to explain the reasons to people. Don't just expect them to read the eviction notice and work it out for themselves... that's just cold. Have a nice evening.


 * Declan Davis (talk) 23:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I meant the box at the top of the Arguments page. If you were confused as to why I'd moved your comment there, I would think the first thing you would do is to read that page and find out what it's all about. Your comments were in no way intended to improve Wikipedia, you were just disputing a universally (within the mathematical community) accepted fact. I would have been justified in just deleting the comment in accordance with WP:TALK, instead I moved it to a page we created specially to cater specifically for such arguments. I assumed a certain amount of initiative on your part in being able to work out why I'd done that - the information was right in front of you, after all. The reason I'm not being particularly friendly towards you is because of the extreme arrogance your comment showed - the people devoting significant amounts of time explaining in careful detail why this mathematical fact is the way it is clearly know far more about the subject than you, otherwise you wouldn't be disagreeing with every mathematician in existence. Undergraduate study is plenty to understand the concepts - I learned them in 1st year and I believe most mathematics courses include basic real analysis in their first years. If you want people to help you clear up your misconceptions, it would help to show a little respect to their greater understanding. --Tango (talk) 23:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It can't possibly be a universally accepted fact. I am a research mathematician and I disagree with the statement. Limits and equalities are different things all together; that's A-level maths. The comments made by some people (who turned out to be undergraduates) repeated the same mistakes that turn up in my pigeon hole week after week when it's homework day. Your use of the phrase mathematical fact is also very worrying. It's not a fact. The limit tends to one, but that's it. Also to say that you aren't friendly towards me because of my arrogance, and then show arrogance towards me... pot calling the kettle black? Once again, have a nice day.


 * Declan Davis (talk) 23:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How about we move on from this procedural dispute and you go to the arguments page and answer my question? --Tango (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree; let's! Declan Davis (talk) 23:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting a little worried about your authority on matters mathematical. From reading your posts you seem to have problems with εδ-proofs, not to mention the defintion of a continuous function. What did you say? "It's just plain wierd"? May I ask: what is your mathematical background, and what makes you feel that your are such an authority on all things mathematical?

Declan Davis (talk) 01:00, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Maths doesn't require authority, that's the beauty of it. Either a proof is valid, or it isn't, it doesn't matter who wrote it. The 0.999... thing is just a matter of definition, and the definition used in our article is the one universally accepted. If you can find a paper that says otherwise, let me know. --Tango (talk) 10:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * So the short answer is that you have very little professional mathematical experience, and as such are not an authority on the subject. Thanks for clearing that up. Have a nice day. Declan Davis (talk) 12:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Signpost updated for September 15, 2008.
You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 05:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK 2.0 Vote
Hi you signed up as being interested in being a memeber of wikimedia UK 2.0. Just a reminder the that the vote for the inital board at Wikimedia UK v2.0/Vote ends next Saturday (September 25th).Geni 03:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

London 14
Following your participation the other Sunday, you may be interested to know that London 14 is scheduled for Sunday October 12 incase you weren't already aware. Best, WilliamH (talk) 11:26, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

MySpace
Thanks ;-) notafish }&lt;&#39;;&gt; 15:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem! --Tango (talk) 16:21, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

FYI
User:Declan Davis and User:Dharma6662000 are the same person; suffices to demonstrate it. I've issued an ultimatum to pick one account; we'll see what he does. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 23:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Very interesting, thanks. --Tango (talk) 23:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Easy as pi?: Making mathematics articles more accessible to a general readership
The discussion, to which you contributed, has been archived, with very much additional commentary, at Village pump (proposals)/Archive 35 (subsectioned and sub-subsectioned). A related discussion is at (Temporary link) Talk:Mathematics and (Permanent link) Talk:Mathematics (Section "Making mathematics articles more accessible to a general readership"). Another related discussion is at (Temporary link) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics and (Permanent link) Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics (Section "Making mathematics articles more accessible to a general readership"). -- Wavelength (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Venus' fate
What about Venus' fate. I've elarnt Venus can also escape, but even if Venus escapes I thgoht the planet condition will just be worse. Venus' fate is not quite certain yet I thought. What you menat by eventually all planets will be flung out orbits. Will they drift away? So when sun becomes a white dwarf, it's gas will stay?--<font color="#00AAAA">SCFR <font color="#00AAAA">eew <font color="#00AAAA">ays 00:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * What happen to Venus I thoguht have some questions. I thoguht Venus may also widen orbits. I seen few sources say Venus will actually survvie over white dwarf. Even if Venus still exist over white dwarf, I thought Venus will just be frozen, dark, and deep cold.--<font color="#00AAAA">SCFR <font color="#00AAAA">eew <font color="#00AAAA">ays 00:52, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Am I right saying this? Veuns fate is not that certain yet. If Venus still exist over sun's giant stage then it's surface will be total molten, all the atmospher' will totally been gone.--<font color="#00AAAA">SCFR <font color="#00AAAA">eew <font color="#00AAAA">ays  00:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * (For future reference, it's best to keep follow up questions on the ref desk so anyone can answer.) I think there is a chance Venus' orbit could expand enough for it to escape, but it's less likely that for the Earth. When the Sun collapses to a white dwarf it's outer layers will be shed and will become a planetary nebula, which will quickly dissipate. The remaining planets (whichever ones survive) will become cold and dead (except maybe Jupiter and Saturn which may be able to generate their own heat for a while longer, I'm not sure how much longer they will generate heat for, they may have already stopped by then). --Tango (talk) 01:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks at the ref-desk
I truly got more educational value out of this than the OP. I got carried away answering this question, because I just learned the stuff today. On the ref desk page, i called my losses, and read those links, and found out how completely wrong I was. However, I'll have for the rest of my life a better understanding of science. Thanks for all your help at the ref desk, even when I was wrong you were kind about it. That's the best way to not kill one's enthusiasm. Sentriclecub (talk) 04:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your comments - knowing you've helped someone understand something makes all the hours spent on Ref Desk worthwhile! --Tango (talk) 17:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Megalomania
Hi, Tango. I thought I'd made it fairly clear that my "secret fantasy" was nothing more than a joke. My more serious subsequent contributions were not though. But I still thought I'd made it clear that suggesting people think about taking different seats was just that, a suggestion. An encouragement at most. I hardly think this amounts to megalomania. If you believe that, maybe you'd better come to one of my classes about the meanings of English words. :) --  JackofOz (talk) 03:14, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The first bit, making every move once they were all settled down for no reason other than to make them respect you sounds very much like megalomania to me. I'm glad to here it was a joke. --Tango (talk) 12:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, of course it was a joke, my friend. I thought you would have had a better understanding of me by now.  Did you possibly think I was actually serious with statements like "They'd soon find out who's boss", and "by then I would have achieved the level of respect I demand"?  Did the double smiley immediately after those words not mean anything to you?  Did "But in all seriousness" not tell you that what had gone before was not said with seriousness?  What more could I have done to ensure this was not misinterpreted?  I don't want this to become a big issue, but your message about megalomania did come across as very stern, and it troubled me that I could have been misread that way.  --  JackofOz (talk) 20:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I misunderstood you. The problem is there are a lot of people that are just like that and mean it - I'm very glad I was mistaken. Text is a very unreliable medium for humour - it's something of an occupational hazard! --Tango (talk) 21:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No hard feelings, Tango. Cheers.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:06, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Europa and Titan
Let me backtrack a little bit. Titan have a dense orange gas, and it's sky is like pale orange, and it's atmosph bar is 1.5 times greater than ours. How would Titan drain it's atmos when the sun heats up. Titan may not be a blue planet but Titan is bigger than Mercury so it will be big enoough to hold an atmos. I wonder if Eurpa even have an magnetic field. Europa is definietly too small to hold an atmos, I thought you meant when sun heats up Europa's ice will just evaporate into a desert like our Moon.--<font color="#00AAAA">SCFR <font color="#00AAAA">eew <font color="#00AAAA">ays 23:03, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you may be a little confused, Mercury doesn't have an atmosphere. The reason Mercury doesn't have one and Titan does, even though they are similar sizes, is that Mercury is much near the Sun so is hotter and is exposed to more solar wind. When the Sun becomes a red giant, it will heat Titan up and expose it to more solar wind which is why I believe it will lose its atmosphere. But you're right about Europa - my understanding is that if it gets hot enough to melt the ice it will just evaporate off leaving just rock behind. --Tango (talk) 23:18, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I know Mercury is closer to sun. I say mercury is total airless. This is another story. When Mercury is on the daytime side it can get as hot as 430 C or 810 F, when mercury goes away from sun Mercury falls bitterly and terribly cold of as cold as -200 C or -330 F is intensely colder than most moons of Jupiter. Everything on Mercury like sodium, nickel, is all fake gases. By 5 to 6 billion-year time Titan's atmos may almost be as thin as Pluto, I don't know about turning the sky black, but the surface tmp may still be as cold s Greenland or Antartica on Earth. I understand is only it's surface temp will be habitable, universally still uninhabitiable. In about 3 billion year-time if human exist the best thing to do is find another solar system.--<font color="#00AAAA">SCFR <font color="#00AAAA">eew <font color="#00AAAA">ays 23:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because it's a habitable temperature doesn't mean it's habitable. It may still be possible to colonise it, it would just require a big dome to keep the air in. There would be decent solar power, at least. That is, until the sun collapses into a white dwarf, which wouldn't be long on an astronomical scale. If the human race survives 3 billion years they will probably want to think a little more long term than just the next few million years, so yes, finding a new solar system would be good. Either that, or find a way to live without the sun - fusion power generation might do it, the raw materials will still be in the solar system even once the sun is dead. --Tango (talk) 23:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Earth becoming Venus
From Formation and evolution of the solar system article it have mention Earth surface will eventually become like Venus in about 2 or 3 billion years. Is this terribly likely? our planet will become pale yellow prior to the time it drives off it's atmosph or it's atmosp will just get thinner until it completely loses it atmos. I wonder how will Earth atmos get thicker when have stuff to do with solar wind?--<font color="#00AAAA">SCFR <font color="#00AAAA">eew <font color="#00AAAA">ays 00:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if the atmosphere will get much thicker, but if the planet warms up the oceans will evaporate releasing lots of water vapour and dissolved CO2 into the the atmosphere, which are both greenhouse gasses. That could cause a runaway effect similar to that seen on Venus. Combined with the Sun's increased output we could get temperatures on the same scale as Venus. The same could happen to a lesser extent on Mars (there aren't large oceans to evaporate, but there are polar ice caps with frozen CO2 which could sublime) which would help it warm up. I doubt enough could be released to produce an air pressure capable of supporting people without spacesuits, though. --Tango (talk) 10:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Pluto's axial tilt
Is Pluto tilt axial of 60 degs or 120 degs? If Pluto is rtro will the tilt be 60 or 120?-- Freeway <font color="#FF0000">9 <font color="FF0000">1 01:08, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Plutos' core
Is Pluto's core generally hot or cold? From this image, it said the center is made of alloy, iron-nickel, and the mantle is rock and ice. I thouhgt Pluto's core would not be hotter than the surface of Venus, but may still be warm enough for water to become a steam? Since Pluto's atmosp is only 1/1000 of Earth's fraction, the globe colour would be gray perhaps yellow-tan or orange-yellow tinge add to the gray.-- Freeway <font color="#FF0000">1 <font color="FF0000">9  00:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Do we have answer to is Pluto's center hot or cold. Some scientist beieve it is made of ieon nickel with alloys stuff. Will It put pluto's center to at least 100 C. I know it is unlikely to be 500 C or 1000 C. -- Freeway <font color="#FF0000">1 <font color="FF0000">9  02:30, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd have to do some research to be sure, but my guess would be that Pluto's core is ice cold. How much heat it could have retained from the formation of the solar system is dependant on size and Pluto is tiny, so it likely has very little retained heat. The sun is obviously too weak at that distance to heat it up. There could be some heat from radioactivity, but that's about it (there won't be any tidal heating since it is tidally locked with its only large moon - I doubt Nix and Hydra are large enough or close enough to do much). Radioactivity could keep it warm, but I would guess not to above freezing. If I get a chance, I'll research it later. --Tango (talk) 10:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Sky

 * I thouht Uranus is mostly coverwith haze, this is why the sky is blue all the time. Those gas giant's sky stay the same all the time, same as Neptune and Saturn. Saturn is much cover with haze too is thicker than Jupiter and neptune's.For uranus and neptune the sky color should be darker blue on top and get lighter on bottom. At the lowest layer must be light blue. Saturn is also much a blue planet I thouhgt, so it's sky much start out blue on haze, but at lower layer must vary to yellow, brown, and orange. Jupiter's have haze, but the disc is rainbow or opal-like color, so the sky on top is specualte to be blue, but not define. At the tropo level juptier may vary white, orange, brown. For Venus, the sky stay the same much all the time I thought. At the cloud levels, it appears to be yellow, but beenath the cloud could be orange mix, becasue of the terrible greenhouse effect, Venus' sky may look scarlet seen from surface. I am not certain what's the color above the top clouds of Venus, becasue it is on the bound to outer space, so I guess it's black.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 20:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You know, you don't need to copy everything to my talk page, I check the ref desks multiple times a day. I don't really have an answer for you because you still haven't said where you're getting these ideas. --Tango (talk) 21:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've post some links on Talk:Extraterrestrial skies. if you know what makes uranus and Neptune blue, and Saturn is actually dull-blue too.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 22:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 22:16, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything about skies on that page. --Tango (talk) 22:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Atmospheric layers. Common snese of what makes uranus and neptune blue.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 22:45, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Common sense doesn't have much to say about other planets... --Tango (talk) 22:52, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You seen atmosp lay diagram yet? They mainly at staro, the atmosp looks blue.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 22:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * They use blue for the diagram, that doesn't mean the sky is blue. --Tango (talk) 23:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought the sky will not be black, the planet have to be total or almost airless to be black. Saturn and Uranus have thick layer of haze, at least will put the sky to bluish colour.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 23:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, black is unlikely, any significant atmosphere will scatter sunlight. I don't see why haze would imply blue, though... --Tango (talk) 23:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the planet disc is blue, Blue, I believe is for upper layers only. But the lower layers the color vary for jupiter and Saturn. If it is above the clouds which is statos, the sky must be blue since it's the disc color However at main part, the sky could be something else. I don't know the sequence, but it must be something like white, brown, orange, yellow. Uranus and Neptune, the color vary possibly not as much as Jupiter and Saturn, the top layer is likely to be blue because the surrounding haze, the lower layer could be blue-white or perhaps green, I' m not certain.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 23:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just because it's blue from the outside doesn't mean it is blue from the inside. The colour from the outside will depend on where the atmosphere becomes opaque - if the upper layers are almost transparent then you're looking at the lower layers so it's their colour which significant, if the upper layers are opaque then their colour will be significant. However, opaqueness depends on wavelength (ie. colour), so it's all rather complicated. Unless you can find a reliable source specifically talking about the colour of the sky on those planets, I don't think you'll get anywhere. Trying to work it out based on the little scraps of information you've found so far is unlikely to work - if it does get the right answers, it's just luck. --Tango (talk) 23:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is sky always on upper level or the sky is likely to be found on lower levels. Lowest level, I'm not certain. But near or above the cloud-tops it's likely to be blue becasue of haze. lower part, short answer-I don't know exactly. I guess yellow, white, brown, yellow-those would be good guess, but I won't include it on article. Do you tempt an AFD for Extraterrestrial skies article?--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 23:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You keep saying that haze means the sky will be blue, where do you get that from? I haven't read Extraterrestrial skies fully, so I'm not sure how good it is, the topic is certainly worthy of an article though, so I see no reason to delete it. --Tango (talk) 23:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Ruslik told me they should be blue akin to Earth, at least above or near the roof of the clouds. I'm not clear what's on the base of the cloud. It may lighten most likely at lower level. For Mars I thought the air is very thin, but some photos show Mars' sky is yellow-orange but what is most likely is the sky would be alot darker, possibly burnt orange, then above stato, Mars sky would appear black. For Venus, it's basically all cover with cloud, and terrible greenhouse effect. No source say exactly what color it is,but some book say Venus sky is yellow, poassibly just between the clouds. Because of thick atmosp, Venus sky would be burnt orange seen from surface.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 23:43, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Mars' sky appears red due to dust in the atmosphere. Venus' sky will look whatever colour the clouds are, which I think is some kind of yellow or orange, since it's completely overcast. What colour it would be above the clouds, I don't know. The greenhouse effect doesn't have much to do with colour (the greenhouse effect is caused by visible light being able to get in but infrared light can't get out, that would cause the sky to be bright in the infrared but shouldn't affect its visible colour). --Tango (talk) 23:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I beleive no matter what spacecraft see it's surface Mars' sky is like a garnet at it's tropospher. Mars' atmosp is very thin, so it's sky will get black sooner than Venus and Earth will I thought. For Venus above the cloud it's likely to be thermosph, so it's sky will appear black. Venus is not only total overcast but total misty, so if I was on it's surface I will just see yellow or orange smoke in my face.--<font color="#444444">Free <font color="#555555">way <font color="#666666">8 00:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There must still be a decent air pressure and density at cloud hight on Venus, otherwise it couldn't support the clouds. The sky is still blue on Earth when you're quite a long way above the cloud tops. I don't know how CO2 scatters light, so I'm not sure what colour it would be, but I doubt it would be completely black (it might still be misty, so still orange, I'm not sure). --Tango (talk) 11:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I thouhgt Earth would be dark blue on the way above cloud tops. Not all part of Earth's sky is light blue I thouhgt. For Mars, you said the sky would be garnet colour I guarntee Martian sky would be sign darker than us, because of lower atmospheric pressure, above then clouds might be brown, then go a little higher then Mars sky would be completely black. For Gas giants, I doubt above the clouds, it's sky would be completely black, because above the clouds on gas giants they still have some light wave. Hydrogen and methan must give off blue lights so their sky must be blue at least above the cloud-tops. Below the clouds, they will have diff light waves, what's below the clouds-I don't know. For Titan the sky woulld be orange-brown perhaps dark orange, beause of acetylene and nitrogen hazes.-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 22:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you have answer to those? Am I right saying these? Above the clouds over gas giants they might still have light waves, I thought it will not be completely black up but knowing the compounds it must be blue. Below the clouds they have differ light waves.-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 00:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't really know. Try and find an academic paper written about the colour of extraterrestrial skies, that's the only way you're going to get a firm answer. There are so many variables involved that we can't do much more than guess. --Tango (talk) 12:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!

 * You are most welcome! --Tango (talk) 11:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Your latest comments about me
You lately have told me to avoid spending time on internet, I wonder why you commenting this? I do in fact have a strong skills over solar ssytem, and know mor than anybody else in my school. I am also strong in my highway skills at my school, and I'm the ones who know the most about highways in Los Angeles-Orange COunty. i spend alot of time studying those stuff plus looking at maps, anyways why does this matter? Just curious?-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 23:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Knowing stuff is only part of the battle - you need to be able to explain it too. That means you need good language skills (among other things). You also need good language skills for life in general - you're seriously limiting the jobs you can get if you don't take the time now to learn better English. I strongly suggest you ask one of your English teachers for help, most teachers would be happy to help you if you are serious about improving. --Tango (talk) 23:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I might still be able to have a descent life eventually I thought. I can probably be a mailman, they get 12 bucks/hour, is probably enough to let me live independently. my dad don't let me to waste those time on internet-this is why I'm not around on weekends. I thouhgt just as Caltrans, they want math skills only, for astrology-just strong science skills. I can still go to community college, at least will open building for me. You spend alot of time on internet too, do you go to a university now?-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 23:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm at university studying mathematics, yes. Even for something like maths you still need good English skills - you need to be able to express yourself properly, you can't do it all in symbols. I'm doing a 100 page project this year, most of that will be words, not symbols - good language skills are essential for any kind of skilled work. Sure, you could deliver mail, but wouldn't you rather be doing something more interesting and better paying? You have a lot of intellectual curiosity, which is fantastic. That could take you a long way, but you'll need the language skills to get there. By the way, when you say astrology, do you mean astronomy? Astrology doesn't involve science at all. --Tango (talk) 00:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Do astronomy/astrology involves math skills or no? Is being a mailman good enough to let me live independently. My mo/dad gets mad if all they see me doing is obsessing/look at maps.-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 00:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Astronomy involves lots of maths (but you still need to be able to write down research proposals, funding applications, papers detailing your findings, etc, all of that involves language skills). I don't know what astrology involves, it's all arbitrary nonsense anyway. Sure, a mailman will earn enough to put a roof over his head and food on the table, but that's about it. If you want to live comfortably and have and significant luxuries, you should aim higher. --Tango (talk) 00:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Will mailman be sufficent enough to buy a car so I can go from place to place via El Monte, Rosemead, San Gabriel Arcadia-those good-looking places in LA.-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 01:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Buying a car is pretty cheap if you don't want anything special, running a car, however, is expensive and depends on the price of fuel. If fuel prices rise too much you might find it difficult to do non-essential driving on a low wage. Having just enough to get by isn't a good reason to not put the work in now to improve your language skills. Wouldn't you like to be able to write postcards from these nice places you'll be visiting without them being full of mistakes, for example? --Tango (talk) 09:56, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * it's tough to be a better writer. i do play constant focus on only highways and solar ssytem. my dad once yell at me when I have 4 copies of itens from mapquest, say my map is just junk to my mind. English is a tough language by struturs, my school principal wants me once to put away my maps and planets, and dig further in other subjects,and try to communicate with communities about something else besides just maps and planets.-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 22:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it can be tough, but it's important. Your teachers will be able to help (your school probably has a careers counsellor as well that could help you work out what kind of job you would like). While having interests that you spend a lot of time on can be a good thing you still have to spend enough time on other important things to make sure you have a broad education that will see you through life. You clearly want to help teach others about the things that interest you, that's why you're here, and with better language skills you could do that. Learning lots about maps and planets isn't much good if you can't do anything with that knowledge. --Tango (talk) 22:24, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

radh/jesus/mountain from molehill
i would normally do too, but this da vinci nonsense...--Radh (talk) 19:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

An Electronic Planet - Thanks

 * You're most welcome! And thanks for the barnstar, it's not one I've seen before. --Tango (talk) 23:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Mars, Titan and Europa
From this image they said Europa could have a water ocean beneath it's thick ice, when the sun heats up and expand how you know it will not get an atmospheric. For Mars, Ruslik said becasue of frozen Carbon dioxide is trap beenath mars surface and the white polar caps is made of carbon dioxide, when it heats up the CO2 will liberate into surface, and Mars atmospheric is learnt to get greater, you said Mars' atmospheric will drain away, you seem to lose me a little bit, or Mars atmospheric may incrase possibly 30%, then soon enough Mars atmospheric will be gone quickly in less than half of billion years. Why you think Titan's atmospheric will elak away when sun becomes a giant star? The atmospheric level is 1.5 times greater than Earth and it is totally viel with orange smogs. If it have frozen gas beneath the surface then Titan will keep the atmospheric. I don't know if Europa and Titan have frozen gas beneath the surface. Ruslik said Titan will keep it's atmosperic, but I guess Titan's level then will be thinner than mars today.-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 23:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Increased heat may cause increased outgassing which could contribute to an increased atmosphere on any of those worlds, but it wouldn't last long. The determining factors on how much atmosphere a world can keep hold of are gravity (high is good) and temperature (low is good). Their gravity isn't going to increase, so the increased temperature will make them lose their atmosphere faster. I'm not sure how long "not long" is, but it may well be fast enough to keep up with the outgassing so the atmosphere doesn't even increase temporarily - remember, the increase in temperature will happen fairly slowly over a couple of billion years, the outgassing will happen slowly over that time. There will be a much greater increase when the Sun goes red giant, but by that point the solar system only has a few million years to live and the Earth will already be uninhabitable. --Tango (talk) 23:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought Earth will probably me swallow up by 5 billion years since the new science believe's sun's tidal bulge will slowly drain Earth's orbit. Would Earth even become uninhabitable sooner than one billion year, since Earth will become greenhouse or Venus like planet though I beielve Earth will slowly leak away the atmospheric as the sun heats up until slowly Earth's atmosp will even worn away even prior to the time Earth even takes chance to be swallow up. I think even if Earth and if Venus even still exist over sun's giant star, they will just become worlds of molten stones like they was 4.6 billion years ago, when the sun becomes white dwarf they will just become a cold, bleak plnet-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 23:34, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Take a look at Sun, it explains that in just 1 billion years, the sun will have heated up enough to end life on Earth. --Tango (talk) 23:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Main Page redesign
The Main Page Redesign proposal is currently conducting a straw poll to select five new designs, before an RFC in which one will be proposed to replace the Main Page. The poll closes on October 31st. Your input would be hugely appreciated! Many thanks, P retzels Talk! 12:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Low level lights
Actually what they meant by low level light. So I'm orbiting aroudn Saturn I might still still the full disc, but wouldn't it be essentially dark like dark brown, but if I get closer then Saturn may be blue-opal color. Uranus and Neptune may rage color between purple and indigo combo with gray because of it's methane gas if I come a foot to the upper atmosp. All spacecrafts use black-and white photos, so will most planets be fake colors. Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter is essentially closer and gets enough sunlight to been seen by humans orbiting around. For Jupiter it's 25 times dimmer than Earth so will it look a scale of gray color if I'm orbiting near it? Is Mercury and Venus close to white color if I'm orbiting arond it?-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy 22:20, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm really not an expert on this stuff, you would be better off asking on the ref desk. While Jupiter receives 25 times less sunlight than Earth per unit area, that doesn't necessarily mean it's 25 times dimmer. It's albedo (the amount it reflects) is pretty similar to Earth, but remember, it is much bigger. From the same distance, Jupiter's disk would be much larger than Earth's disk, which will increase the total amount of light reflected. In fact, it's radius is about 10 times that of Earth, so the area is about 100 times greater. That would suggest it will look 4 times *brighter* than Earth. The other gas giants will probably be dimmer, though, due to their smaller size and greater distance. --Tango (talk) 23:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I thik you mena magnitude. All Mercury through Saturn have magnitude of less than 2. I wonder how numbers on magnitude works. higher number is darker, and lower number is lighter riht? Urnaus have a magnitude of 5, it's probably essentially dim but perhaps still bright enough to see theplanet from certain distance, perhaps I'll see a tinge of moderate purple color. Neptune have magnitude around 8, so if I'm orbiting around the planet I won't quite see the planet. plutoids havemagnitude of greater than 11, so it's surface will certainly look almost pitch black. The desk people may be wrong too. Most people count on the image they see photolize, the spacecraft takes those image black-and-white, and NASAS teams use some lgihts to fix the color, all iamge is essentially fake colors.-- Free <font color="#0000FF">way <font color="#0000FF">guy  00:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See apparent magnitude. The numbers you are quoting are how bright they appear from Earth (the naked eye under good conditions can see down to about 5 or 6 [higher numbers are darker, as you say]), they will be brighter if you are closer to them. --Tango (talk) 00:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Mercury and Venus
My question is do Mercury ever hit past 900 F? I doubt Venus will get hotter than 950 F but Venus will at least be 800 F, those peaks may equal.-- FR <font color="#0000FF">W <font color="#0000FF">Y 00:38, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Science desks
Is the purpose of Science desk usually ask bout the source infomation? Desk is usually not a discussion forum? So sometimes people give me answers could be wrong? A user have earlier want me to try out on Beautforum, better place to get questions answer, and will the pople know mor than we do? Is Wiki not a school-- FR <font color="#0000FF">W <font color="#0000FF">Y 01:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It varies depending on the question. Some questions have simple factual answers that people will just give and not worry about sources. Some questions people will go out and find sources for you. Other questions don't have a clear answer and we'll have a discussion about it and try to form an answer over a period of time. We don't guarantee our answers are correct, certainly. I know nothing about Beautforum, so I don't know if they'll give you better answers than we can. --Tango (talk) 02:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

RD advising for (im)patients
I appreciate your supportive feedback, Tango. My aim was to write an objective, sensible though clearly non-professional response while avoiding the anecdotal (which I don't mind providing on a User's talk page, within reason). The impetus, though, was empathy: wondering how I'd have felt over the past year-plus since my accident, had I been deprived of low- or no-cost access to orthopedists while I was recovering from fractured vertebrae among other injuries, not to mention the benefit of having five years' inhouse experience as ancillary staff in hospitals. Hence my request for the input (and hopefully consensus) of RD regulars. So thanks for yours! -- Cheers, Deborahjay (talk) 18:03, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK v2.0
Hello! Thanks for showing an interest in Wikimedia UK v2.0. Formation of the company is currently underway under the official name "Wiki UK Limited", and we are hoping to start accepting membership in the near future. We have been drawing up a set of membership guidelines, determining what membership levels we'll have (we plan on starting off with just standard Membership, formerly known as Guarantor Membership, with supporting membership / friends scheme coming later), who can apply for membership (everyone), what information we'll collect on the application form, why applications may be rejected, and data retention. Your input on all of this would be appreciated. We're especially after the community's thoughts on what the membership fee should be. Please leave a message on the talk page with your thoughts.

Also, we're currently setting up a monthly newsletter to keep everyone informed about the to-be-Chapter's progress. If you would like to receive this newsletter, please put your username down on this page.

Thanks again. Mike Peel (talk) 19:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC) (Membership Secretary, Wikimedia UK [Proposed])

Double exponential hyperinflation
Tango, since you expressed interest on the Zimbabwean Dollar talk page, I thought I'd link you to this interesting paper on the mechanism behind double-exponential price growth in hyperinflationary situations.

http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0112441v1

As it turns out plotting the CATO numbers I need to plot log(log(log(Z$))) in order to get the points to fall on a straight line, and even then it's a slight underfit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CecilPL (talk • contribs) 18:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that, I'll take a look! --Tango (talk) 18:31, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Wiki UK Ltd Membership applications now invited!
Hello,

It gives me great pleasure to announce that Wiki UK Limited is now inviting membership applications! You can download the application form in PDF format from meta:Image:Wiki_UK_Ltd_membership_application_form.pdf

Information is given on the form about membership fees (£12/year standard, £6 for concessions); these need to be paid by cheque initially, although we hope to accept other forms of payment in the future. Applications should be submitted to me at the address given on the form. If you have any queries about the application process, please let me know.

We will formally start accepting members once we have a bank account, as we cannot process membership fees until that time. We will be submitting our application for a bank account in the very near future, and we hope to have this set up by the end of December at the latest.

Thank you for your support so far; I look forward to receiving your membership application.

Mike Peel (talk) 21:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Membership Secretary, Wiki UK Limited

P.S. if you haven't already, please subscribe to our newsletter! See meta:Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Newsletter for more information and to subscribe.

Wiki UK Limited is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. The Registered Office is at 23 Cartwright Way, Nottingham, NG9 1RL.

Protection of Joseph Cao
Could you please explain your protection of Joseph Cao? There is a request to unprotect it here. There seems to have been little or no anonymous vandalism before the protection, and the article hasn't been protected before, so indefinite semi-protection seems unjustifiable. Thanks. --Tango (talk) 14:47, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I've unprotected it, but the edit before I protected it said in Vietnamese "as tall as a penis".  YellowMonkey  ( bananabucket ) 02:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. We don't usually protect articles indefinitely following one piece of childish vandalism. Please familiarise yourself with protection policy before protecting any more articles. --Tango (talk) 12:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Peer review for Locally connected space
Dear Tango,

There is currently a peer review for locally connected space. Could you please participate (if possible)?

Thanks for your help.

Topology Expert (talk) 11:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK Newsletter - November 2008 Issue
Summary: Wikimedians in the United Kingdom are working to set up a chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation, which will aid and encourage people to collect, develop and effectively disseminate knowledge. A board of five members has been elected, and a company has now been set up. Membership applications are now invited, and will be processed as soon as we have a bank account. The organisation needs the support and involvement of people like you.

In this month's newsletter:
 * Creating a chapter
 * Elections
 * Status of Company Formation
 * Membership
 * Getting involved

''Wiki UK Limited is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. The Registered Office is at 23 Cartwright Way, Nottingham, NG9 1RL.''

Signpost updated for November 17, 2008 and before.
Because the Signpost hasn't been sent in a while, to save space, I've condensed all seven issues that were not sent into this archive. Only the three issues from November are below.

You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot (talk) 10:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK Newsletter - December 2008 Issue
Summary: You can now join Wiki UK Ltd, which hopes to become the official UK chapter of Wikimedia in January. The organisation is planning its first Annual General Meeting, where members can vote on who is on the board, and put forward and vote on resolutions. The organisation is already supporting activities such as a bid to hold Wikimania 2010 in Oxford and the exciting Wikipedia Loves Art project at the Victoria and Albert Museum. We also bring you news of the the recent Wikimeet in London.

In this month's newsletter:
 * Chapter formation
 * Membership
 * AGM
 * Wikimania 2010 - Oxford bid
 * Wikipedia Loves Art
 * London Wikimeet

''Wiki UK Limited is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. The Registered Office is at 23 Cartwright Way, Nottingham, NG9 1RL.''

Newsletter delivered by Mike Peel (talk) 16:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Meetup
You may be interested: Meetup/Manchester 4. Thanks,  Majorly  talk  18:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)