User talk:Tangobravo84

E-series passports
Good afternoon. Could you send me an email photo of the cover of your E passport? --Norvikk (talk) 11:21, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

TB: Good afternoon Norvikk. I'm new to Wikipedia community so I don't know how to get hold of your email address. Please supply your email address and I'll be happy to send you a photo of the cover of my E-series passport. For the record, it looks just like the red one on the article itself. You see, Mongolians have been travelling to China visa-free since 1989. After the collapse of USSR, Mongolia re-established its commercial relationship with China and today over 90% of Mongolian import and exports are directly with China. In Mongolia today, there are still lots of markets and bazaars type establishments compared to the few departments stores. The owners and operators of these market stalls import 100% of their wares from China by travelling to the country on a monthly basis if not weekly. So that brings us to the three passports types that are in existence today: E-series, A-series and D-series. E-series is the ordinary passport issued to Mongolian who want to travel abroad, these are valid for five years. D-series passports are for diplomats and attaches and they're only valid for three years - the length of each diplomatic mission. A-series is for "Alban" or for work. However, the translation of "alban" as "official" does not mean that it's an authoritative adjective but the other meaning of a noun of an administrative official. Therefore, when Mongolian Foreign Ministry's website states "Up to 30 days for diplomatic, official or official E passport holders only", they're using both the adjective and the noun in one sentence which is bad enough but it causes confusion with the words "only". The stated three passports are the only three types of passports in existence for Mongolians. However, it's worth bearing in mind that in the Soviet days, Mongolians used to have "internal or domestic" passports which are the equivalent of today's Personal Identification, which is a credit-card sized, government-issued ID. While technically, it's not a passport, this personal ID can be used to travel around within Mongolia including domestic flights. Thus, in most people's mind they have two passports (of sorts): one for domestic and one for international travel. Therefore the latter is generally known as E-series passport for legacy reasons.
 * Our conversation is a conversation of equals. You do not need to report or make excuses. I asked you to explain your point of view. thank you. Let me to invite to the conversation of two visa experts. I want to know their opinion too., Do you agree with the edits, the article Visa requirements for Mongolian citizens? If this type of passport is available to any ordinary citizen, your edit is correct. If it is one of the possible types of passports for the ordinary citizen of Mongolia, then the edit is incorrect. Please send me a cover of passport. Thanks. Map. Do not create a new file, change your current. Because other articles about Mongolia use this file too. Information must be identical in the two articles: Visa requirements and Visa policy. In this case the Visa policy of China needs to be changed too, if your viewpoint is correct. --Norvikk (talk) 16:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi there, the only sources I could find are from the Chinese side (as I don't read and only know a few words in Mongolian) which listed the visa-waiver agreement as covering "diplomatic, official and public affairs passports". The effective date was listed as 30 April 1989 and not 30 March 1989 although I think that's a typo. So we have ourselves a catch-22 situation here: the E-series passport is definitely the public affairs passport mentioned under the agreement, although it seems to be issued to all Mongolian nationals (while China did the exact opposite: the Passport for Public Affairs is now limited to employees of the state). The true headache is that I can't find anything from the Mongolian side due to my inability to read Mongolian (in cyrillic or traditional scripts) and Google doesn't offer a Mongolian translation tool.C-GAUN (talk) 17:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
 * This is a simple matter as we should edit Wikipedia in accordance with Wikipedia rules. Rules on Verifiability are clear - unless there is a verifiable and published source that says all Mongolian nationals are issued with E series passports then we can't use that information. It could be true but so far it's only "according to Tangobravo84" which is not enough, again by Wikipedia standards. Or as the policy says, Wikipedia content "is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it".--Twofortnights (talk) 18:36, 24 February 2017 (UTC)


 * E-series passports are indeed issued to any ordinary citizens. I can likewise ask you where you get your information about Mongolian passports. In the meanwhile, I've emailed you my own passport cover and the inside page clearly describing the passport number which starts with the letter E.
 * Thanks for weighing in, and it is unfortunate but we're simply arguing about semantics of what constitutes E-series passports. I am a Mongolian citizen who can read and write Mongolian so if you find anything, I'm more than happy to translate them for you.
 * Your ability to misinterpret rules is simply astounding. I am a Mongolian citizen who has been to China visa-free on many occasions. And I travel there regularly using my ordinary passport. You don't accept my experience deeming it as "anecdotal", that's fine but you'd rather accept Norvikk's version of events, which are not based on any evidence either! Not even a personal one. The onus is also on him to prove that Mongolians cannot travel to China visa-free. Until this page is sorted out, it contains inaccurate information! Remember, the rules are not there to self-serve certain individuals but to apply to everyone. Have a good day.
 * I have received your mail. I have understood about what E there is a speech. Thank you. I tried to find information on the Mongolian passports. But couldn't. Twofortnights explained the rules. I don't like some rules but we must obey them. We know that arriving in China without a visa is possible with the usual passport of Mongolia e-series. Source Timatic. This information should be in the table without changing the red color. Other changes will provoke war of edits. I don't know how to prove that the e-series passport is ordinary passport of Mongolia and other series for a normal passport does not exist. Deadlock. --Norvikk (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I found the information on Mongolian consulate website in San Francisco. Please see this passage: http://www.sanfrancisco.consul.mn/index.php?moduls=21 which clearly state in the first paragraph "Е серийн буюу үндэсний энгийн гадаад паспорт" meaning "E series otherwise known as national ordinary international passport". You can cross check the translation with others if you wish but it's a fairly concrete example. Please change the section on China, a lots of Mongolians outside the country access this page and almost all of them commented on the inaccuracy regarding China.
 * Hi Tangobravo84. You don't need my approval to edit. You can make any changes if you follow the rules. Happy editing! --Norvikk (talk) 18:40, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Mongolian consulate in San Francisco is hardly a primary source on Chinese visa policy towards Mongolian citizens.--Twofortnights (talk) 18:57, 3 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I was clarifying the fact that E-series passports are ordinary passports. The main article link however is a primary source on Chinese visa policy towards Mongolian citizens which clearly state that normal E-series passport holders are exempt from visa for 30 days. I get it, you're a stickler for the rules but at least learn to put the two and two together. I don't meant to be rude but semantics and comprehension counts for a lot when processing various references, which I'm sure you'll agree.


 * You've said "I think some citizens of Mongolia still have passports of other series that were previously issued". Where do you get your information from? There are no other series of passports for ordinary citizens. I thought this was supposed to be facts only. Where is your source?
 * This assumption. I did not make the edits based on assumptions. Edit made on the basis of information from Timatiс. I tried to find a compromise between the rules of Wikipedia and your view of the situation. If you disagree, you can open a topic for discussion to hear the views of other users. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Visa_requirements_for_Mongolian_citizens I nothing more to add to the above. Have a nice day. Norvikk (talk) 13:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)