User talk:Tekleni/Archive 3

Sockpuppets
Hi Tekleni. I'm not using a sockpuppet. I'm logged on to a wifi node at a local hotel, but I'm using my wikiedia account, so what's the problem?! JamesAVD 11:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The maps were changed without discussion to a non-standard format. A change to the that format will have to be agreed more widely until they can be accepted. I am reverting the maps to the standard and widely-accepted format. JamesAVD 11:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Fascinating, Tekleni, that a potential change is being discussed on that page. But until the use of non-standard maps showing position within one or other regional bloc has been broadly accepted, including by the editors of the pages of the relevant countries, the maps should stay as they were on 27 October. JamesAVD 12:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Map
That map stinks! What's so good about it?--Hamparzoum 23:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It's more detailed - the rivers are visible etc.--Tekleni 23:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * So if I make a more detailed map with Armenia proudly in the center, there is no objection?--Hamparzoum 23:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What does it mean proudly in the center? This is not an art show. The map that conforms to Wikipedia standards stays. Period.--Eupator 23:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's what I call sockpuppetspeak and pathetic excuses for POV pushing.--Tekleni 23:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The Article is about Armenia! Armenia is the center of attention and should be in the Center of the Map like it was before...--Hamparzoum 00:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So? Is Greece at the center of the map? Is Estonia at the center of the map? What is this really about?--Tekleni 00:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You tell me, you are the one supporting the change, when everyone was fine with the old map. Why do I care about the other places, let a Greek and an Estonian deal with those.--Hamparzoum 00:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Are you Armenian? Can you speak the language? :p Or are you a sockpuppet of a certain User:Caligvla who can't stand that map for other reasons we are all too familiar with.--Tekleni 00:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems to me like you are evading the question. Yes, unlike some of the other users here I am full-blood Armenian, all four of my grandparents came to the U.K. at the turn of the previous century. As I last checked this is en.wikipedia.org--Hamparzoum 00:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You don't speak Armenian therefore you are not Armenian :) Simple as that.--Eupator 00:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's rich, just go ahead and disinfranchise half the Armenian population around the world--Hamparzoum 00:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * How can someone be disinfranchised if they are not part of the franchise to begin with? --Eupator 00:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I particularily liked this edit of yours (and the next). •N i k o S il v e r• 00:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Shhhh.... we're not supposed to talk about that ;-) --Tekleni 00:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You wrote that? Ah, I can see what is going on here, you must be a Turk!--Hamparzoum 00:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * :-) :-) :-) Caligvla, stop it now. I bet you're howling with laughter when you're typing this nonsense.--Tekleni 00:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * In Turkish your name would mean "focus on news" (haber + zoom). Tekleni, check mail, read, delete, format disk, throw away. •N i k o S il v e r•  00:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have read it. I'm just choosing not to answer ;-) --Tekleni 00:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Good, don't spoil the mystery. Did I miss anything? •N i k o S il v e r•  00:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course you did.--Tekleni 00:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)(I've logged out now - don't expect a response for some time if you choose to reply)


 * My name means Resurrection as in the Resurrection of Christ, someone you Turks could learn a lot from--Hamparzoum 00:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * How very racist of you, amot!--Eupator 00:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Amot? Really now, it seems very clear you have the deep seeded amot issues Eupator, I am very proud of who I am!--Hamparzoum 04:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:NOFEEDING - I think it would be best is everyone stopped replying; can't you see it's pointless?--Tekleni 10:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Malakas
Thanks, I noticed. Unfortunately, people might get mad if I semi-protect in a content dispute, plus—even if I do, the anon can just log-in to one of his/her usernames. I'll fully protect it when things start to heat up again. Khoikhoi 05:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, couldn't resist . Feel free to revert if you find the addition not too relevant. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, why is your user page a self-redirect? You could just as well have it blank and still a bluelink. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I was intending a redirect to my talk page.--Tekleni 10:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ha ha! Just spotted an opportunity for a little harassement here! Under this heading, you should be more carefull in discussing redirects to your talk-page! •N i k o S il v e r•  00:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Hi
I am very glad that you have shown interest. I am the vice-president of the Editura electronica armaneasca "Moscopole-Crushuva" (Aromanian electronic publisher) and am currently visiting my family in FYROM (Crushuva). Unfortunately, I do not live here so I am trying to keep up the Wikipedia and maintain a proper flow of articles and corrections. Unfortunately, the FYROMians keep changing things (according to their own liking, and not our language) so I am glad to have some help. Our publisher has members from every part in which the Aromanians live, but it seems that only I am the one working on everything. Quite hard...:) It's quite bad that the younger Aromanians don't speak this language, but I hoped that this Wikipedia might make them change their mind. There is a considerable number of visitors. The view of any Aromanian is that he should be integrated into society wherever he is. We used to make many trials to make them speak up and claim their difference, but that wasn't possible. The Aromanians were, are and will be the most integrated community.

If you look at the language, it is of course close to Romanian. There is a beautiful explanation for this in a Greek book which you might be interested in reading: Grammatikh ths koinis Koutsovlaxikhs by N. Katsanis PhD and K. Dinas PhD where especially in the introduction are the most important parts considering the development of the Aromanian language. You cannot clasify the language as a dialect because: 1.the people have difference in the genetic code (they are not Romanians), 2. it has a greater Greek influence upon it, whereas Romanian has a significant Slavic influence, and 3. Aromanian always had it's centres south of Danube, and cannot be in any way connected with Romanian. What is similar is the common Latin basis. If you want to classify Aromanians into a certain group you would have the most difficult task in the world. They are a mixture of the old peoples that lived in the Balkans: Thraco-Illyrians (Romanians came from Dacian tribes)-non Greek tribes and Thessalians and Epirotes-Greek tribes. So, if you speak of a quazi-national linguistic minority, you would not be correct as well.

Now, Aromanians (because of the difference in origin-different tribes and nations) have a difference in dialects. In the book I have mentioned above the author accepts the division between Northern and Southern. As there is no clear boundary, I would prefer using a different classification of dialects which we along with Dumitrachi T. Fundu PhD (president of EEA Moscopole-Crushuva), proposed: Moscopolitan dialect (from Moscopole:now spoken also in: Albania (Farsherot), Crushuva, Bitule + surrounding villages: Tarnuva, Magarova, Gopeshi etc.(FYROM-REIM), Sofia-Bulgaria and Belgrade-Serbia) and Grammostean dialect (from Grammos-Greece, along with the Pindus and Olympus dialect, now spoken in Greece + Shtip&Kumanovo region (FYROM) and Romania (Constanta, Bucharest etc.)). There were some commentaries for putting the Farsherot dialect in a separate group. Both the Moscopolitan and Grammostean dialect call their language (Aromanian) - armaneashce and themselves - Armanj(i=short Latin silent i). The Farsherots on the other hand have a slight difference in pronounciation of the AR-in Armanj. In fact they use another phoneme for this - the hard 'Rr'. In their dialect the dark vocal ã is closer to the darker "ë" found in Albanian.

We mentioned both cities in our name only to note the dialect we use. We have considered this a lot and believe that the dialect we have chosen represents best the Aromanian language following the peak of the Aromanian language and culture - Moscopole and the so-called second Moscopole -Crushuva. You might have heard that the Moscopole dialect represents also the pro-Greek fraction of Aromanians. This is true, we are Filohellenes visited the Greek schools and churches and maintained speaking Greek and Aromanian at home. I hope this made things clearer now. Costandina Dica Eeamoscopolecrushuva 13:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Armenia in Europe
I am a member of the AMA (Association of Members' Advocates) currently acting on behalf of User:Caligvla, who has named you as one of the participants in the dispute over whether Armenia is in Europe or Asia. Caligvla has listed a number of reference sources classifying Armenia as an Asian country. He claims that the only sources quoted by your side of the dispute are 1.) an obsecure Canadian website that places Armenia in Europe, and a BBC article that mistakenly places Armenia in Europe. Can you please respond to this and give your side of the argument (preferably on my userpage)? Under the AMA principle of audi alteram partem, you have the right to be heard. (NB Copies of this message have been placed on the talkpage of all those who Caligvla has named as participants in the dispute.) Walton monarchist89 09:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your response. I appreciate the fact that you have provided sources supporting your side of the dispute. As Armenia is a member of the Council of Europe, this indicates that politically they may be considered a part of Europe. It now appears to me that the weight of evidence is roughly equal on both sides. The trouble with the whole Wikipedia process is that, in almost all disputes, it is possible to locate sources to support both sides of the argument, which sends us 'back to square one' as far as the whole dispute-resolution process is concerned. The only solution I can see is to edit all the disputed articles to add something along the lines of: Some authorities consider Armenia an Asian country, due to its geographical position and the historical relationship of Armenians to Asian peoples. However, Armenia is part of the Council of Europe, and is now considered part of Europe for some purposes. Armenians themselves disagree about whether their country is Asian or European. Do you agree with this as an acceptable form of phrasing? Walton monarchist89 10:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

"Yup!"?
What do you mean "Yup"? There's clearly no consensus on how the template should be laid out. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐


 * There is a majority and a minority view though.--Tekleni 21:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Show me. Most of what I've been reading actually shows more people for everything being on one template. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 21:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Nuh-uh. Just because Wissahickon Creek was framed as being a sockpuppet of Bonaparte (do you know how many innocent users have been banned for being "Bonaparte"?) his opinion still counts? Why don't we ban all users who disagree with us for being "Bonaparte" (maybe I am also Bonaparte :p). Anyway, it'd be a shame to vandalise David Kernow's hard work on the new templates if there is no consensus to do so.--Tekleni 21:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * His opinion does not count. Banned users are not welcome to contribute and their contributions are considered null and void. Note how his support vote on my RfA has been struck out. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem fair somehow :-( --Tekleni 22:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's especially fair. We cannot allow "votes" of banned users to be counted, nor can we allow sockpuppet "votes" to be included.  Perhaps I should cultivate a sock farm to make my point? └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 00:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Armenia(continued)
Tekleni, to the best of my knowledge you and Caligvla are both correct about the Council of Europe; Caligvla's right that it has nothing to do with the EU, while you're right that it has little to do with trade, being principally a diplomatic and human rights organisation. Anyway, returning to the proposed article changes; will you accept this sentence as a compromise: Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Transcaucasus, in lieu of this sentence in the Armenia article: Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe. Caligvla has stated that he will support this change. I'm not trying to promote a POV, but to establish a constructive consensus; that's my job as an advocate. Walton monarchist89 17.42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation
Hello! You've been mentioned as a potential participant in a dispute regarding the article Transnistrian referendum, 2006. Please review the mediation and discussion, and feel free to participate if you feel it is appropriate. If not, your comments would still be appreciated. Thank you, and please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions. Flcelloguy (A note? ) 02:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Armenia straw poll
User:Augustgrahl has agreed to the compromise I outlined on his talk page, which is that the sentence Armenia is situated at a cultural, historical, and religious intersection and located at the crossroads between Europe and Asia, in the southern Caucasus will be an acceptable replacement for Culturally, historically and politically Armenia is considered part of Europe, as long as we also continue to include the sentence about Armenia being a transcontinental nation. User:Eupator has declined to accept this compromise. I have now opened a straw poll on this issue on my talk page. Please add your comments supporting or opposing the proposed change. Walton monarchist89 09:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Rollback
Alright, sure thing. :-) Khoikhoi 23:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * BTW, all I'm saying is that I "reverted X's edits to last version by Y". If you think about it, the only difference is that it's faster. Khoikhoi 00:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but you know me, I have a thing about reverting in that way. See WP:RV for more info.--Tekleni 00:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, I understand now. Ciao, Khoikhoi 00:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Result of Armenia strawpoll
As you can see, the straw poll has provoked equally strong support and opposition for the proposed changes. It's useful, if only to show that there are strong feelings on both sides of this debate - but it sends us back to square one, in that the opposition from User:Eupator, User:The Myotis and User:Hectorian is strong enough that I don't have a mandate to make the changes. As such, having failed to find a compromise of my own, I'm now inviting everyone else to suggest one. We need to find a way of saying, in a way that no one finds offensive, that Armenia is both in Asia and in Europe and that the domestic political situation reflects links with both continents. Any ideas would be welcomed. Walton monarchist89 12:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * NB By the way, I see what you're saying about sockpuppets, but all those who actually contributed were registered users with no accusations of sockpuppeting. Walton monarchist89 12:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

RfC opening on Armenia
Given the complete deadlock on this issue, and the failure of the strawpoll, I think the time has come to take the dispute-resolution process to the next level by opening a request for comment. This will open the debate up to the whole Wikipedia community, and hopefully generate, if not consensus, then at least a majority view. I will invite all users involved in this issue to contribute to the RfC, which can be found at Requests for comment/History and geography. I realise that you may now be a bit bored with having to explain your views again and again on different pages, but as an advocate I think this is the only way to finally end this dispute. Walton monarchist89 09:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for changing back my name. I am sure you are right, that was how I had it in the first place, I just didn't get round to changing it. As for the FYROM. I don't object to Former Yugoslav Republic; personally I wish it were Present Yugoslav Republic but this is it, nobody asked me what I wanted! The trouble is, some of my family will blast me for having FYR on the user page, especially given that on Wikipedia the constitutional name is accepted for both country and language. On the whole, I stand from the Greek vantage point over the issue for many reasons which benefit both the FYROM and Greece, but like I said - nobody asks me! (ie. Heads of state or their elite friends). Evlekis 15:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Look at this
Category:Turkish saints --Eupator 15:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Not convincing, indeed. It's been created and populated recently by User:Cuchullain from the WikiProject on Saints. Apparently they have a system of Category:Saints by country. But these guys should really all go into Category:Byzantine saints, which is a member of the same super-category. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree.--Tekleni 15:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Opinion please
As a result of a lengthy debate/poll we had in Template talk:Countries of Europe, I've formulated a proposal and need to know what other people think about it. Its scope extends obviously beyond Europe, so I made a subpage before I post it in WP:VPP. See User:NikoSilver/Disputed regions - Summary style (and click talk for your comments). Thanks. •N i k o S il v e r• 23:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Armenia dispute
Tekleni, in reply to the comment you left on my talkpage, viz. you may want to read WP:NOFEEDING very carefully, I have to ask two questions. Caligvla has agreed to take a break from this dispute, for maybe a week or until the end of the RfC. It is possible that this case will progress to the mediation cabal, an eventuality which we would all like to avoid, as it's the last resort in any dispute. I apologise if any of my words or actions as an advocate have offended you, but, as I keep saying, I'm only doing my job. Walton monarchist89 10:48, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you calling Caligvla a troll? Although he has a POV, I don't think it's fair to accuse him of deliberately disrupting Wikipedia. Your accusations of sockpuppeting have yet to produce evidence, and everyone has a duty to assume good faith.
 * Are you suggesting that I'm not doing my job properly? As an advocate, I have to treat everyone's views on this issue with impartiality and fairness. I was under the impression that I'd been sufficiently polite and courteous to all participants in this dispute, as no one has complained. I'm just trying to move towards a constructive consensus, not to try and promote any POV.


 * As you suggested, I read WP:NOFEEDING in detail, and still don't think it's fair of you to refer to Caligvla as a troll. The page says: Biased editing, even if defended aggressively, is in itself not trolling...They are only trolling when they are motivated by a program of malice rather than ignorance or bias. Even if you are right about Armenia being in Europe (a topic on which I have no personal opinion), then that still doesn't make Caligvla a troll. The page also reads  A troll deliberately exploits weaknesses of human nature or of an online community to upset people; I don't think Caligvla's done anything of the sort. Fair enough if his POV on this issue offends you, or you consider it flawed, biased, or offensive to Armenians. But the most important line in the trolling-policy page is this: When you try to decide if someone is a troll, strive to assume they are not. Please apply this policy with respect to Caligvla and to the other participants in this dispute. Walton monarchist89 13:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, thanks for your advice about my RfA. Walton monarchist89 13:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to ask what evidence you have for your allegations of sockpuppeting. If you are correct, then that reduces the number of genuine 'support' votes on the Armenia strawpoll to only 4. Your side of the argument has emerged victorious anyway - sorry I forgot to notify you that the poll closed - as I counted 10 opposing votes in total, against 6 support and 1 neutral. So it's a moot point whether or not the user in question is a sockpuppet. Walton monarchist89 13:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Move wars
Hey, please refrain from tricks like this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * But Ghirlo did it and no one uprised.--Tekleni 17:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Biased edit
Moved to Talk:List of unrecognized countries

I just realized something
The issue isn't even about whether they have de facto control over the claimed territory, it's whether they have de facto control over the occupied territory. That is, while Transnistria may not occupy everything it claims, it controls everything it occupies. Tamil Eelam, on the other hand, only has partial control over what it occupies—it does not have a firm grasp on its occupied territory. That's the issue here, not whether one occupies all the land claimed. That's why Taiwan is in the total control category, even though it claims all of China. └ <b style="color:blue;">OzLawyer</b> / <i style="color:black;">talk</i> ┐ 18:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, mate, but you're really overdoing it
Re. Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus: You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Warning removal
Hello! You've removed a recently added user warning template from your user or user talk page. This tends to give the impression that you don't care or consider it. User warning templates contain valuable information and although you may disagree, it's best if you consider them. Thank you.

Further warning removals may result in an extension of your block. Please show some good faith. --Madchester 20:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude, seriously
You don't fool anyone with sockpuppets like that. Let's try to be more mature (I know you can be), kay? └ <b style="color:blue;">OzLawyer</b> / <i style="color:black;">talk</i> ┐ 20:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Come on man, this is getting to be ridiculous. Blocks are no big deal, just check my block log for example. Once you come back, we can resolve things, ok? You're just too good of an editor to be doing things like this. <span style="font-family:monospace, monospace;">Khoikhoi 21:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)