User talk:Tgubler

Welcome to Wikipedia!!!
"In my opinion, [Fresco's] entire career at Wikipedia has one goal: promoting his guru. But he's not a stupid guy, like a lot of people who come through with a strong opinion. He doesn't insist on doing things his way. He's been assiduous with building relationships, with other editors and admins, doing a lot of favors for folks to get into their good graces." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.82.184.75 (talk) 11:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Your edits @ Prem Rawat
Your edits are welcome in Wikipedia, but please note that you may have a conflict of interest. If your name is T Gubler, you may be a person that had a legal wrangling with a related organization in the recent past. As such, I would advise you that it would be better if you make contributions to the talk page, rather than edit the articles directly. For more information see Conflict of interest. ≈ jossi ≈ t &bull; @ 21:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jossi,

We can judge the quality of a person's contributions to an article by their content. I am still learning about Wikipedia but by using the guidelines in NPOV, Biographies of Living Persons, Verifiability and Accuracy I am sure this article can be improved enormously. My minor involvement in someone else's legal "wrangling" has no bearing on my interest in ensuring the quality of this article. Surely your involvement in this article is far more likely to lead to conflicts of interest. I understand that you are a student/devotee/premie of Prem Rawat's and even the most truth loving person may waver on the side of a PPOV under these circumstances. I look forward to our co-operation. Tgubler 21:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * My disclaimers about me being a student of Maharaji are openly presented on my talk page. Note that I am no longer editing the article directly, and I am contributing indirectly by making comments i n talk pages and asking other editors to review my edits and implement them if compliant, as per my disclosure of conflict of interest. As it relates to your close involvement in a legal dispute, and the fact that you seem to be an active advocate against the subject, one can easily argue that you are as a conflicted an editor as anyone in the same circumstances, and your ability to maintain a neutral perspective may also be a challenge for you. Having said that, I welcome your attempts to improve the article, and look forward to a civil exchange on how to achieve that. ≈ jossi ≈ t &bull; @ 04:01, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I look forward to this exchange enormously. I believe public civility is appropriate in a forum such as Wikipedia. Tgubler 22:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That's the spirit. I would also appreciate it if, while engaging me and others in these discussions, you avoid making disparaging comments in public forums off-Wikipedia about this project or about other editors, as these make it very difficult to assume good faith, and are not conducive to maintain the expected level of civility. In past exchanges with other occasional editors that have a predominant anti-Rawat bias, this has been a major issue and caused a lot of aggravation. You may want to read WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA (in particular the last section about Off-wiki personal attacks). ≈ jossi ≈ t &bull; @ 00:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I was not aware I was making disparaging comments about you. Could you point these out so I can ensure they are not repeated through my thoughtlessness. If you are a regular reader of the ex-premie forum then you will know that many people believe I have made disparaging remarks about them that I did not intend and that I am something of a controversial figure there due to my beliefs about the ordinariness of premies and the relative benignity of "practising "Knowledge". I do not intend to be an occasional editor here. As my association with Prem Rawat's followers has been one of the major, long term influences in my life I believe I have the experience and Knowledge necessary to ensure as truthful acccount of Prem Rawat's life and teachings as is possible on Wiki. Tgubler 22:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I was only asking that you do not make the same mistake some of your friends made in the past, so avoid disparaging editors, this project, and the editing process in other fora while you are editing these articles, so that we can all take these in good faith. As for your second comment, note that you are mistaken (many newbies make the same mistake, so don't take it badly): In Wikipedia we do not describe our experiences of anything. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that describe what secondary, reliable published sources say about a subject. So your involvement in the 70's as a student of Prem Rawat, and your strong opinions on the subject are more of a liability than an asset as it pertains to editing related articles within the spirit of our policies. I would advise you to become familiar with Wikipedia content policies as it will save you a great deal of embarrassment, and will make the process of editing more collegial. Follow the links I placed in my welcome message to you above to learn more about this project. ≈ jossi ≈ t &bull; @ 00:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am beginning to think that English cannot be your first language as you do not seem to understand me correctly. I have already stated on the discussion page that I enquired about you and Momento's backgrounds as "students" of Prem Rawat so I can understand you better and hopefully make the editing process smoother and more efficient and collegial. I had no intention of trying to use any personal research I may do ar have done. Naturally I had printed and studied hard copies of all the related Wiki policies before I joined as an editor. I have used some spare time during the last year studying much media content of Prem Rawat's private and public career to ensure the accuracy of my thoughts. I have still got much to learn and I enter on this editing process with humility knowing that your expertise in Wiki "rules and regulations" may well cause me embarassing moments in the future but I expect the master class in Wikipedia policy you provide for me will assure Prem Rawat's articles as as correct as they can be. You are my Wiki guru and I think of you as my Yoda. Tgubler 01:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * English has been my first language for the last 18 years, so I understand you very well. I have welcome you to Wikipedia and would be a pleasure to assist you with any questions you may have. Just ask. You can also ask other Wikipedians by placing the helpme tag somewhere in this page. As for the Prem Rawat article, I welcome your contributions, but please note that reaching consensus takes time and patience, particularly when the editors involved have opposing views. ≈ jossi ≈ t &bull; @ 02:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

As said in talk page, I welcome your research, but note my previous warning: As a person with a very specific conflict of interest, you are advised to you refrain from editing the article directly and instead discuss your edits in talk. I have no intention to disclose your situation, but if you chose not to discuss your edits, I will have no choice than to make a disclosure and ask other administrators to look into it. Thank you for your consideration. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Tgubler, your legal proceedings with Prem Rawat would indeed seem to put you in a conflict of interest regarding Prem Rawat. I would recommend you be extremely careful to follow Wikipedia's policy regarding living persons, and ideally restrict your contributions to the Talk: page of the Prem Rawat article. Jayjg (talk) 22:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Jayig, I have had no legal proceedings with Prem Rawat at all. I was involved in legal proceedings with the Ivory's Rock Conference Centre, a business. In an ideal world I would not be here attempting to improve this article. I take on board your advice but I believe that I will adhere to the Wiki policy on Biographiies of Living Persons far more closely than it is currently being observed in this article. I suggest you keep a watch on this page and I would certainly appreciate your future advice on sources. But since you have already become involved then what is the situation of jossi, Momento and Gstaker all of whom are followers of Prem Rawat who is the Guru Maharaj Ji of some 1970's notoriety and is still considered a religious leader of a cult/NRM by all the major press and academia and encyclopedias of religion. Surely they have an extremely strong conflict of interest. Thanks for looking into this. Tgubler 20:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Tgubler, here are some unasked-for words of advice. Please note that on Wikipedia we make a point of treating each other with civility. While I understand that you have disagreements with Prem Rawat and his followers it is best if you don't refer to them disrespectfully. Our job, as Wikipedia editors, is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. It isn't our job to prove how good or bad something is. If we stick to our job and follow the basic policies things usually turn out fine. -Will Beback · † · 02:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Your advice is gratefully accepted. However I am not aware that I have treated anyone here on Wiki without civility. Please point out to me any uncivil comment I have made so I can get a better appreciation of the Wiki civility guidelines. I do confess that it appears to me that there is some incivility on this discussion page but I have attempted not to become involved in it. Thank you. Tgubler 21:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for being open to improvement! A good gauge of the civility of a remark is whether one would feel comfortable being the subject of it. For example, if these were directed at me I would feel as if someone were making negative personal comments about me or my editing ability:
 * I am beginning to think that English cannot be your first language as you do not seem to understand me correctly.
 * ...possibly some editors have not realised this because their own original research into Prem Rawat's "Knowledge" has given them unWiki-ish opinions of his life.
 * The best policy is to avoid making any personal comments at all. Just stick to discussig the material. There's plenty to talk about. Cheers, -Will Beback · † · 21:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * ... or making comments in public forums off-wiki about fellow editors with opposing views to yours needing counseling for "trauma". Don't do it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:37, 28 November 2006 (UTC)