User talk:TheEagle107/Archive 4

January 2023
Your edit to :Imam Maturidi International Scientific Research Center has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images&mdash;you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. ''This is your final warning. Further violation of Wikipedia's copyright policy will result in you being blocked from editing.'' — Diannaa (talk) 14:19, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Support
Hello, The Eagle107 and I hope you're doing well. I just recently got a notability on Al-Khattabi page which you helped me on. I used only secondary sources that were quoting medieval sources and I'm confused to why they issued me this? If you could help me I would really appreciate you, many thanks. Ayaltimo (talk) 16:24, 09 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Hello The topic is notable, but the sources you have cited in the article are not good enough. I've added several additional sources to the article that provide significant coverage, and I think now the article is clearly meets the general notability guidelines. Good luck and all the best!--TheEagle107 (talk) 20:20, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

By the way, when you have some free time, please see WP:ILL. Thank you.--TheEagle107 (talk) 20:48, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! I knew I could count on your support! I will definitely look into it and try to learn. Ayaltimo (talk) 10:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

:Category:Books about anthropomorphism has been nominated for deletion
A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:36, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Unexplained removal of content Feb 2023
Hello, and Welcome to Wikipedia. At least one or more of your edits on the pages Al-Tabari, Al-Tirmidhi, Al-Darimi, Abd al-Rahman al-Awza'i, Dawud al-Zahiri, Ibn Majah and Abu Dawud al-Sijistani have been reverted. While these edits may have been in good faith, they were difficult to distinguish from Disprutive Editing since you have removed long-standing stable content backed up by Reliable sources. To help other editors understand the reason for the changes, you can use an edit summary for your contributions. Ahl al-Hadith is not a creedal school, since it is an early scholarly movement and "traditionalism" is an English academic term that is used to refer to Atharism, in the context of theology. The relevent sources on these had already been notified to you, as you're aware. You can also take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. shadowwarrior9 (talk) 5:38, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Unexplained removal of content"?! Seriously?! I have written in the edit summary, "We have to go with what the source says. Traditionalist, referring to one of the Ahl al-Hadith who adheres to the traditional authority in dogma; while Athari is referring to one of the followers of Ahmad ibn Hanbal in 'aqidah..."

Secondly, you have been warned before, not to add original research. Original research is material saved in article space for which no reliable published source exists, or material that is combined from reliable published sources to advance a position not advanced by the sources themselves. Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication. Take care not to go beyond what the sources express or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context. In short, STICK TO THE SOURCES.

Can you show me one source that says "Athari"? If you have a source that clearly says "Athari", then you can write that, indicating your source. But the reality is that all the cited sources says "Traditionalist" not "Athari". There is even a source that states clearly that: "the traditionalists (ahl al-ḥadῑth)". [ https://www.jstor.org/stable/40377944 ]

You are confusing "Traditionalists" with "Athari". Athari is a school that derives its name from the Arabic word Athar, meaning "Narrations". The Atharis are often subsumed under the Hanbalite school of law (madhhab); as the Hanbali jurist al-Saffarini said: ‘Ahl al-sunnah wa’l-jama‘ah are three groups: ATHARIS, WHOSE LEADER IS AHMAD B. HANBAL, may Allah be pleased with him; Ash‘aris, whose leader is Abu’l-Hasan al-Ash‘ari, may Allah have mercy on him; and Maturidis, whose leader is Abu Mansur al-Maturidi.’

Here are some sources that shows explicitly the meaning of "Traditionalist":


 * Abū Yaʿqūb al-Buwayṭī, the first successor of Muḥammad b. Idrīs al-Shāfiʿī, made an important but hitherto unappreciated contribution to the formatioṇ of the Shāfiʿī school of law and the convergence of the rival legai approaches of the traditionalists (ahl al-ḥadῑth) and the rationalists (ahl al-raʿy) over the course of the 3d/9th Century.


 * The term traditionalists (ahl al-hadith) is used to refer to scholars who transmit or investigate traditions to establish the soundness of their authenticity.


 * ... and the traditionalist position (usually referred to by ahl al-hadith) that revelation was knowable only by faith, and that human action was primarily determined by God, on the other.


 * By traditionalist, I am referring to one of the ahl al-hadith who adheres to the traditional authority in dogma, as against the claim of rationalists (ahl al-kalām); by contrast, the term “traditionist” refers to a muhaddith, one who transmits hadith.


 * This led to a protracted controversy over the question of the “creation” of the Qur'an, which the Mutazilite made it into a litmus test to distinguish the traditionalists (Ahl al-hadith) from the rationalists (Ahl al-Ra'y).


 * or Traditionalists (ahl al-hadith),...


 * To a traditionalist, a legitimate theologian is one who belongs to Ahl al-Hadith, the partisans of tradition, who set themselves against Ahl al-Kalām...


 * While debate still raged between the "rationalists" or ashab al-ray ("masters of free opinion"), and "traditionalists" or ahl al-hadith ("the people of hadith")

Please stop adding original research to articles, or provide other sources. Thank you.--TheEagle107 (talk) 16:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist. Who told that your definition of what an "Athari" is or isnt, holds any weight? Exceptional claims requires exceptional sources More importantly, Ahl al-Hadith are not a creedal school, they are a scholarly movement, (as is known by plenty of sources) of which creed is only a part of it. Without any attempts to discuss, you just made these edits undermining the Longstanding, stable version.
 * Yes, traditionalist also refers to "Ahl al-Hadith", Who disputed this? Atharism is the theology of traditionalists or it is the Traditionalist school of Islamic theology''. Plenty of academic sources refer to Athari as traditionalism.
 * This only proves the fact that traditionalists also referred themselves as Ahl al-Hadith and their theology was a part of the Ahl al-hadith ethos.
 * So its pretty ironic for you to throw allegations of Original Research against other editors, when you remove Long-standing content based on your own mis-interpretation of sources or POVs and violating the long-standing Consensus in Wikipedia.
 * This only proves the fact that traditionalists also referred themselves as Ahl al-Hadith and their theology was a part of the Ahl al-hadith ethos.
 * So its pretty ironic for you to throw allegations of Original Research against other editors, when you remove Long-standing content based on your own mis-interpretation of sources or POVs and violating the long-standing Consensus in Wikipedia.
 * This only proves the fact that traditionalists also referred themselves as Ahl al-Hadith and their theology was a part of the Ahl al-hadith ethos.
 * So its pretty ironic for you to throw allegations of Original Research against other editors, when you remove Long-standing content based on your own mis-interpretation of sources or POVs and violating the long-standing Consensus in Wikipedia.

Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 04:28, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Once again, none of your sources explicitly says "Athari" but rather all of your sources say "Traditionalist". The problem here is that the scholars who were born before the birth of Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241/855), the Imam of the Athari school, cannot be considered Atharis, as you did in the article of Al-Shafi'i (d. 204/820), who was the teacher of Ahmad ibn Hanbal!!! My suggestion to solve this problem: Either you bring sources that explicitly and directly says "Athari" or simply write "Traditionalist" as the cited sources say.--TheEagle107 (talk) 19:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I think you need to see THIS because you're claiming that you have consensus!--TheEagle107 (talk) 21:30, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Its telling that you first requested "provide other sources", and when the reliable, academic references are revealed, you suddenly shift the goal posts; which is an indication of the genuinity involved in such requests.


 * Firstly, the Reliable, academic sources have all clearly demonstrated for everyone that Traditionalism is a terminology widely used to denote Athari theology far more than the term Athari itself. It is a Common English academic term and all the cited references in those articles were in the context of Islamic theology. You simply want to push down your own personal definitions and want other editors to accept it. What is your source that nobody held the traditionalist/Athari theology before Ahmad ibn Hanbal?? Yeah, Nothing.
 * Even from your own POV, you had no reason to delete these content and categories because all the scholars save for Al-Awzai were either contemporaries or successors of Ahmad. Thus, even Assuming Good faith, your edits cant be seen as nothing but part of an apparent Bias against Athari tradition, which degrades the purpose of encyclopaedia.
 * And lastly, regarding your 'suggestion" to re-write them as "Traditionalist theology" in the creed section, I dont understand its usefulness. Furthermore, what is the purpose of re-writing the Athari theologians who lived since the late 8th century to the contemporary times to "Traditionalist theology" in the first place?? Athari is the shorter term of the traditionalist theology and more concise to readers. If you wish, feel free to add "traditionalist" or "Ahl al-Hadith" in a seperate row titled "movement", which would be available. Either way, the term "Athari" should absolutely stay; since this is well known in the academia as "traditionalist theology". Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 03:20, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't want to repeat what I have already said and mentioned above, but here is another source that confirms what al-Saffarini said in his Lawami' al-Anwar al-Bahiyyah wa Sawati' al-Asrar al-Athariyyah.

I think our discussion is done here. Now, if you don't mind, I would appreciate a third opinion on the matter. Any suggestions?--TheEagle107 (talk) 14:46, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * All of your alterations except al-Awzai, were either contemporaries or successors of Ahmed. You even removed content from Hanbali scholars like Abu Dawud al-Sijistani, contrary to your own assertions. I'm sorry, but this type of behaviour is totally unacceptable.


 * This source doesnt prove what you're suggesting either, since even the Roy Jackson source quoted above states that Ahl al-Hadith are followers of Ahmad Ibn Hanbal; yet plenty of scholars before Ibn Hanbal are described as "Ahl al-Hadith" in numerous academic sources.
 * Also note that the same reference defines Atharism in its Glossary:
 * So not only is Atharism defined on the basis of terms such as "hadith" and "tradition", it also explains that it originated in the late 8th century, when ibn Hanbal was in his teens at best and not a scholar. Furthermore, all your content removal involved late 8th century traditionalist/Athari theologians. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * So not only is Atharism defined on the basis of terms such as "hadith" and "tradition", it also explains that it originated in the late 8th century, when ibn Hanbal was in his teens at best and not a scholar. Furthermore, all your content removal involved late 8th century traditionalist/Athari theologians. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:48, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * "Traditionalists" may refer to: Ahl al-Hadith or Atharism. Therefore, I suggest adding the term "Traditionalist" in the template, as the sources say, and linked it to the disambiguation page of "Traditionalism", as it gives all possible meanings.--TheEagle107 (talk) 17:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
 * This only makes any sense in the context of pre-late 8th century scholars at best and Traditionalist creed/theology isn't anything ambiguous to be linked to some disambiguation page. So no. But if you want to add "Traditionalist" in a row titled "movement", which is more sensible and actually improves the Encyclopedia, feel free to do it, as I've already suggested.
 * Additionally, going by your proposed logic, the creed of all Traditionalist/Athari theologians from past to present has to be linked to some disambiguation page that confuses the readers. Hence "Athari" should definitely stay; as it is a Common editing nomenclature which is well-backed up by Reliable, academic references. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:39, 16 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think you have got my point. But I'd rather leave it up to you or someone else who would be interested in the matter, to avoid any misunderstanding or disagreement. Thanks for the conversation, anyway! Peace.--TheEagle107 (talk) 19:59, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

February 2023
Please do not move a page to a title that is harder to follow, or move it unilaterally against naming conventions or consensus, as you did to :Badr al-Din al-Simawi. This includes making page moves while a discussion remains underway. We have some guidelines to help with deciding what title is best for a subject. If you would like to experiment with page titles and moving, please use the test Wikipedia. Thank you. Uness232 (talk) 02:55, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

A Barnstar for you

 * Thank you so much for the barnstar, and the kind motivational words. It's GREATLY appreciated! 🙏 Best regards.--TheEagle107 (talk) 20:06, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

List of Deobandis
Please help me organize the names in alphabetical order. Thank you.  –MinisterOfReligion  (Talk) 09:41, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


 * ✅.--TheEagle107 (talk) 02:22, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 16
An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Sharh al-'Aqa'id al-Nasafiyya, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Macedonia.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:06, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Ahmad Zayni Dahlan
Hello,

Just wanted to make you know that I translated the page in French and tried to make it correspond in all points with the English article, including your edits. Cordially, AgisdeSparte (talk) 08:54, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

May 2023
 You have been blocked indefinitely from editing for violating copyright policy by copying text or images into Wikipedia from another source without evidence of permission. Please take this opportunity to ensure that you understand our copyright policy and our policies regarding how to use non-free content. If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please read the guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text at the bottom of your talk page:. — Diannaa (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I have blocked your account, because in spite of repeated warnings including a final warning in January, you continued to add copyright material to Wikipedia in violation of our copyright policy. You cannot resume editing until you provide a statement describing how copyright applies to Wikipedia, show that you understand our copyright policy, and make a commitment to follow it in the future. — Diannaa (talk) 20:23, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Message
Please come back and make a statement that you've understood the copyright guidelines and will take a better precaution in the future. Someone valuable and experienced as you in Wikipedia shouldn't get caught up in this predicament. If you do plan to use a specific source next time to make a contribution, please use this website. It helps you paraphrase everything and will save you a lot of trouble! I wish you all well, regards. Ayaltimo (talk) 11:07, 19 May 2023 (UTC


 * Thank you very much for your support and thoughtfulness. I respect Wikipedia's rules and I support its standards. I also value fairness and accuracy. I usually use Earwig's Copyvio Detector before posting my edits or creating my articles to make sure that I don't violate copyright policies, and I have used this tool before publishing my last edit, which caused me to be permanently banned from editing due to copyright policy. But the tool did not show any copyright violations! (see HERE) Anyway, I am satisfied with what I have achieved here, and I think this ban came at the right time, because I need to take a vacation to recharge myself! :) Thanks again and wishing you all the best. Peace. 🤍🕊️--TheEagle107 (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

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