User talk:ThePacker

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Betty Holberton
Hi ThePacker!—thanks for your message. I guess your message is in reference to your moving the page from Betty Holberton to Frances Elizabeth Holberton on October 9, 2009? You should be aware that this move was not in conformance with Wikipedia guidelines on article titles of biographical subjects. The accepted convention on Wikipedia is to title biographical articles with the names their subjects were most commonly known by. See the guideline here. Thus, the article for the 42nd U.S. president is titled Bill Clinton and not William Jefferson Clinton. I believe the ENIAC programmer in question is most commonly known as "Betty Holberton" (see links for evidence:  - I note that this latter site was designed by Priscilla Holberton). Generally the name in the infobox should match the name of the article title. The full name of the article subject should, of course, be the one printed in the lead of the article. (See MOSBIO.) I moved the page back to Betty Holberton. I hope my explanation provides some clarity as to the policy but let me know if I can assist further. Also please give my best to Priscilla Holberton. I hope she is well. Robert K S (talk) 03:51, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, as i said, F.E. Holberton used to use her Fullname to sign official documents, as Priscilla wrote me in an e-mail corresponcence. Books published by F.E.Holberton were published under her real name, not her nickname - If she didn't mind she would had published it under her nickname. But it wasn't the case. I have a letter from DEK, where even he writes to Frances E. Holberton. Scientific Journals which were ordered by Frances Elizabeth Holberton, were also addressed with F. E. Holberton and not B. Holberton.
 * Frances Elizabeth Holberton got her nickname "Betty" which is a short form of Elizabeth, mainly because of her mom, was also named Frances. But she used to be called Betty only by people who knowed her in personal. And this is why the Article should not be to be found under her familiy nickname. As Priscilla Holberton wrote me during an e-mail conversation. Please restore my changes. -- ThePacker (talk) 16:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Excerpt of our e-mail conversation:

> So "Betty Holberton" should be the name of her main article. And > "Frances Elizabeth Holberton" should point to "Betty Holberton"?

be what she went by professionally. Here is something she wrote while at NBS
 * No Frances E. Holberton or Frances Elizabeth Holberton

http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=2&ti=1,2&Search_Arg=holberton%2C%20Frances&Search_Code=GKEY^*&CNT=100&type=quick&PID=VS1jk3PN04lrqQ5l6jQ4qyc_WF&SEQ=20091007211743&SID=1

Well is may be hard to link to that but if you go to the library of congress website and look up Holberton, Frances you will see it is cited as Frances E. Holberton.

You could use Frances Elizabeth "Betty" Holberton to cover all your bases. English speakers would know that Betty is just a nickname of Elizabeth, but like you speakers of English as a second language would not necessarily know it.

A nickname is not your official name, and is what your friends call you. And in her case her colleagues called her Betty too, but she always signed everything official "Frances E. Holberton".


 * Your argument seems to be that she had a full name and she used it on publications. But the standard we should look to is not the name by which she was officially known, but rather, the name by which she was commonly known.  Barack Obama used his full name, Barack Hussein Obama, when taking the oath of office; he may have used this name for some official papers as well.  This does not mean that "Barack Hussein Obama" is the name by which he is commonly known.  "Betty Holberton" is the name by which this figure was commonly known, as you have acknowledged, and has been evidenced in short by the links I provided.  I also note that Goldstine in The Computer: From Pascal to von Neumann was apparently unaware of the full name "Frances Elizabeth Holberton" since he always gives full names in the book wherever he can, but only lists her as "Elizabeth Holberton" when naming the ENIAC programming corps.  (Goldstine also had the habit of "correcting" nicknames, like Betty, to their fuller expansions, sometimes incorrectly so, as in the case of Betty Jean Jennings (now Jean Bartik), whom he called "Elizabeth Jennings", even though her name as found on her birth certificate was "Betty Jean Jennings" and Elizabeth was never her name.)  As to your communication with Priscilla Holberton, the e-mail supports my view and not yours, inasmuch as it distinguishes her "official name", i.e., "what she went by professionally", from that which "[her] friends call[ed] [her]".  While I appreciate your research and your important improvements to the article, I respectfully submit that Betty Holberton was not then and is not now commonly known by "Frances" or "Frances Elizabeth", and so renaming her article as such would be contrary to Wikipedia guidelines.  Thanks for reading. Robert K S (talk) 17:44, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Well I do not know Goldstine (He is not within my computer science literature), but i know that Knuth (D.E) was also very correct with names, see (TAOCP Volume 3, Index "Holberton, Frances Elizabeth Snyder" and the referenced pages). In A letter from DEK to FEH, which i own, he used her fullname to address her and her nickname name (Dear Betty,), for the introduction. This Letter was written in 1969. If Goldstine was not aware of her complete name, than he can not be the source you can rely on. Anyway, i made my edits with prior and careful research of the issue. Thank you for your attention. -- ThePacker (talk) 19:12, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Herman Goldstine hired Holberton. Robert K S (talk) 06:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)