User talk:The Duke of Waltham

Greetings, dear Wikipedian. My name is Harold Cartwright, and I am the Duke of Waltham's private secretary. On behalf of the Duke, I should like to welcome you to His Grace's talk page.

Please note that His Grace follows a policy of keeping conversations unfragmented; in other words, an exchange that begins in one talk page should continue in that same talk page, in order to keep the discussion whole and intelligible. If a conversation has begun in a venue other than this, you need not answer here; you can rest assured that I shall notify the Duke about any new messages (through use of a designated watchlist).

Old discussions are archived with extreme care, even though half of them do not deserve such treatment in the least. But who am I but an underpaid member of the staff, to be judging my boss's gossip. Well, for those interested, the archives are open to the public from 09:00 to 17:00, Mondays to Fridays. Try not to come on Fridays, though, because I close early.

Please don't leave any litter while you are here. There is a dustbin in the corner (where the old Signposts end up, and I couldn't care less about recycling).

By the way, thank you for not smoking.

Enjoy the rest of your day(s), if you must.

Spilling the beans
No need to tell the IP editor he's breaking the formatting! Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:00, 4 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It's a fair point. I guess I didn't think it very likely that the vandal would care to check the history on who has reverted them and when (and why). Waltham, The Duke of 23:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Succession Box Wars
Monsieur le duc, it has been too long since we last spoke and certainly years since we worked together to standardise the succession boxes across Wikipedia, a project that I think we can both agree has bee largely a success. Indeed, from what I can tell on the group page, it seems our fair standardisation project may be heading for merger into a larger group. However, I do not write to you about the good old days. Nay, I write concerning a problem I have been having of late with a specific situation involving succession boxes.

Somehow it has come to the attention of a certain user that I enjoy editing and updating succession boxes. They have seemed to now make it their goal in life to not only revert my changes and additions to succession boxes, but to delete them entirely from some pages. I fear that even now the user is reading my comments on this page, Wikihounding me even though their hounding has a basis in Wikipedia policy. The issue at stake are succession boxes that show neither predecessors nor successors, instances such as stand-alone pretenders whose claims are subsequently abandoned, or title-holders who, for whatever reason, are unique in their line of succession. Many of the deleted boxes have been present for many years – even since the beginning – but are now being challenged. I fear searching and editing more such articles just because I feel that my edits will not only be reverted, but that the box will be deleted entirely.

I know we dealt long ago with a fight between ourselves and the people who favoured large collapsable infoboxes for succession lists. That fight seems to have resolved itself in a manner that both parties could keep their boxes. But have we ever discussed the issue of succession boxes that don't, strictly speaking, depict successions? Instances of one-off nobles and royals whose presumably successive titles never ended up being used in such a manner? If so, I'd love to be pointed to the documentation for it so that we can finally put this matter to rest. Currently, my hounder will delete any succession box that does not show a predecessor and/or successor. Their latest victim was just Empress Matilda, Lady of the English. He deleted the box stating that the title was non-successive. Granted it had its own issues, but he didn't fix the issues, he just deleted the box. I've since corrected the issues and restored it, but this was a case where such a correction was an option.

There is also the added problem I've had with another user regarding pretentious titles. It seems our term "Titles held in pretence" is too anachronistic for some since the term "pretender" did not exist in such a form in the Middle Ages. The user in question (who, to be fair, is highly protective of articles that they have contributed to) does not wish to add titles held in pretence as succession boxes since the term itself is anachronistic. The fact that the idea behind the term is not, in fact, anachronistic is apparently beyond them. I haven't yet thought up a solution to this problem. I see no problem continuing to call them pretenders despite the anachronism, but others may disagree. Do we have a policy regarding pretenders specifically and how to handle their succession boxes?

It has been too long since I regularly edited Wiki articles, but I am deep in research these days and consult Wikipedia regularly for simple clarifications, so I can't avoid it any more. Apparently by trying to improve the succession boxes, I have imperilled many of them, much to my dismay. Do you have any advice, my old friend, to help our project through these times?

Sincerely, – Darius von Whaleyland,  Great Khan   of the Barbarian Horde  22:30, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Great Khan, I am so happy to hear from your terrible majesty once again. I feared that you had left these lands forever, a departure that was only followed by greater decline in our beloved project, and in Wikipedia overall. Alas, it has been a long time since I last worked on succession boxes consistently and systematically, and although I occasionally fix or improve the odd box I chance upon, it is but rarely that I undertake wider projects, even as small as fixing a single succession chain across a handful of articles. Various obligations have come to impose upon my time and I have been absent from SBS for years, something caused in part by a series of initiatives and proposals frustrated mostly by inactivity and low participation. Perhaps my absence has contributed further to this withering of our erstwhile active, if small community, but the general trend is worrisome to say the least. I have little hope that any sustained effort could possibly be mounted to improve conditions in this area. I have given up.
 * Which is why it has taken me so long to reply to your message: I didn't quite know how to say that I cannot be of any material assistance to you. I considered doing some research, but the appetite has left me and, in any case, I am too busy writing an article to take time off—my first article, finally, after so many years!
 * I do remember that we have discussed at least once the matter of succession boxes as you describe (with stand-alone cells, so to speak, not being part of a chain), but I cannot say we had much of a policy about it, or about several other things for that matter. I can see both sides: on one hand, such boxes can be seen as unnecessary clutter, which offer no navigational benefits and merely repeat things from the article; on the other hand, many people have come to expect to find such information at the bottom of articles, and taking boxes away compromises the completeness of the system. I cannot judge which view is best, at the moment, and cannot afford to involve myself further.
 * Similarly, the matter of pretenders has been addressed on a couple of occasions, but really what generally happened was that some people encountered certain special cases and treated them as they saw fit, creating a precedent that no one knew or cared about sufficiently to note down somewhere, so that it might serve as an example to others. I remember hearing about a specific case and being inspired by the solution to apply it to a slightly wider class of cases, but not much came out of it. It's all a bit vague in my mind, but our ambitious goals about organisation and guidelines never really amounted to much.
 * I am really sorry for the delay in my response, and for not having something more useful to tell you. I hope you can find a solution to your problem. I just wish I could be more optimistic about it... Waltham, The Duke of 17:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply, your grace. It has indeed been a long time that either of us have been involved with the project and I am disappointed whenever I come across a page that once had a succession box and has since been replaced with a collapsed infobox. So unhelpful! For the moment, I have essentially stopped editing succession boxes except to just update them to the current standards (I found a number of old HTML ones when doing some genealogical research on the Wittelsbach dynasty). I have been contributing other information to articles since my PhD project seems me visiting the site frequently to clarify certain things, but succession boxes are generally left to the wayside unless I am certain an edit can be made without comment or reversion. I have occasionally applied the tried and tested method of making an edit to a box and then immediately making a minor edit to something else (a grammatical error or format error) in the hope that my first edit was not noticed, but this does not always succeed. I rather despise such covert means of editing in any case, but such is life. I have plenty of projects on my hands outside of Wikipedia to become enmeshed in new wars with the generally high school-aged, lowly-educated Tories that dominate these pages in this dark age. I thank you for your reply and I, too, am saddened that you cannot help, but such is life. We all must move on and allow our excellent project on Succession Box Standardisation to evolve or die, as all must do. Cheers! – Darius von Whaleyland,  Great Khan   of the Barbarian Horde  00:01, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Honorifics in lists of politicians
Hi The Duke of Waltham. Since you've edited one or more of List of current members of the British Privy Council, British Government frontbench and Official Opposition frontbench in the last six months, I'd like to invite you to a discussion about the use of honorifics in those lists. The discussion is happening here, and I look forward to a helpful and robust discussion. DBD 20:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations!
Dear sir,

I am sure the Duke will be gratified to learn (if he has not already) that he has, at last, been included in the German Wikipedia, next to the impeccibly named "Turnip Townshend", as fellow bearers of coats of arms containing scallops.

My only question is when this list will be included in our own encyclopedia.

Yours, ‑‑ Yodin T 23:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)


 * His Grace would be delighted to hear of this, I'm sure, which is why I'll see to it that he doesn't. There appears to be a nice little in-joke developing here, and I wonder whether someone might carry it even further, but I assure you it wouldn't pass muster in the English Wikipedia, where people are serious enough about heraldry and the Peerage that they wouldn't let these arms mingle with the rest without so much as a disclaimer. (Or at least they used to be; most WikiProjects are but shadows of their former selves these days.) Well, I've added one to the image file itself, just to be safe. It shouldn't spoil the fun... It's just that I'd hate to see a repetition of this sorry affair. Waltham, per pro. H. Cartwright 19:26, 16 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Good Lord! Sorry to read that, and I don't mean to be a spoil-sport! His Grace's arms are actually a magnificent illustration of a heraldic helm, so I've left the Thai article as is; unfortunately the German list of Scallop-bearing arms is now bereft of the Waltham insignia, though I still contend an English version—even without his Grace—is not only inevitable, but necessary! &#8209;&#8209; Yodin T 13:04, 17 October 2015 (UTC)


 * It certainly was a lot of work doing it on Microsoft Paint, even at this relatively low resolution, but one had few choices without knowledge of Inkscape (if it even existed in 2007) or some similar design software. Don't mention it to His Grace, but I actually know what prototype he used for the helm and coronet, and to a lesser extent the mantling. That is a truly magnificent helm... Waltham, per pro. H. Cartwright 17:35, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

His presence
Noting His Grace's presence on this site—very welcome. Please pass this on, Cartwright. Tony  (talk)  03:01, 17 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The Duke is locked in his study writing, sir. He is confident that he will publish his first article within the month, although I've bet ten pounds with Preston, the driver, that he will give up on it at least once and only pick it up again next year. He does seem determined this time, I'll give him that. I shall pass your regards at lunchtime, sir, along with the sandwich tray; I'm sure His Grace will want to hear what you busying yourself with these days. Waltham, per pro. H. Cartwright 10:14, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:32, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Lines of succession to thrones
Hello! Could you give your opinion on this issue: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Succession Box Standardization/Guidelines, please? --Editor FIN (talk) 05:57, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Greetings
His Grace's presence is noted. Tony  (talk)  15:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!
 Happy Birthday! Have a very happy birthday on your special day!

Best wishes, CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 12:13, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

A goat for you!
Dearest Duke of Waltham,

After a few years in which we heard less from each other and I discovered that coincidence is definitely a better friend seeker, I decided to send you a missive with a request that might convince you to actually do something.

I would like to ask your natural helplessness to send me an archive of the SarcasmSociety. As you are probably suspecting, I would like to enjoy the beautiful conversations and the times in which you and others were, in all probability, smarter than now.

What say you?

P.S. Also, I'm considering reuniting some of the court on reddit. What say you?

Alin (talk) 10:32, 5 November 2020 (UTC) 


 * Hello! I can see you've also e-mailed me; I'll reply there. Waltham, The Duke of 13:03, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!
 Happy Birthday! Have a very happy birthday on your special day!

Best wishes, CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:35, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

May I also wish His Grace the best for His birthday. Tony (talk)  03:40, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

File:Lords Chamber (landscape).jpg listed for discussion
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Happy Birthday!
 Wishing The Duke of Waltham a very happy birthday on behalf of the Birthday Committee!   Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 16:31, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

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Glad to see you back, sir
At least I hope you're coming back. Tony (talk)  09:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I'm not… But I've never left entirely, either. You can't keep a nitpicker down! Waltham, The Duke of 09:20, 28 January 2024 (UTC)