User talk:The Transhumanist/Archive 3

Major revamp of the finance related
I saw that you had weighted in on the deletion decision for list of finance related topics and I am looking for a more experienced wikipedian than my self for guidance about a finance related issue.

I also agree the list should stay, but finance on wikipedia is in a terrible state, very un organized and haphazard. I am trying to fix this and have struggling for days to come up with a way to do this. This is what I have come up with:

Rework all finance related templates, and split them into two groups: Top layer topics, which will be templates on the right hand side (like Template:Finance sidebar), and Sub layer topics which would be listed on the bottom of the screen type templates (Template:Financial markets). The over arcing structure is taken partially from the list of financial topics but re-worked so that it makes more sense. The following would be the upper layor break down: user:drewwiki/sandbox1 Then each of the second row topics would have a template that goes one level futher, see user:drewwiki/sandbox2, user:drewwiki/sandbox3, user:drewwiki/sandbox3, user:drewwiki/sandbox4, user:drewwiki/sandbox7, user:drewwiki/sandbox6

After this, for the topics that have even more levels and sublevels, the system would switch to the bottom type template. Ie Template:Financial derivatives The Financial deriviates page would have the financial deriviatives subpages on the bottom and the Financial markets template on the right. This way a user could move within finance on the right and within financial derivitives on the bottom.

If I implement this, there would be lots of editing, lots of template creating and lots of time and energy, I want to make sure that this system makes sense. I would appreciate any advice or comments you would have. I tried to create a wiki project finance so I could ask them this type of question (WikiProject Finance but there it was unable to really get going.

--DrewWiki 14:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * They look too much alike. Change that picture if possible so that the templates are easier to tell apart.  Like a skyscraper for the corporate finance, etc.  The Transhumanist 15:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry about that, yeah the images there were just for show, like a beta, but is the concept solid? --DrewWiki 16:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm browsing the finance section now, and your templates, to get a feel for the whole project. I should have an answer for you in less than 2 hours.  The Transhumanist 16:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You've got a financial markets template which goes on the right, and then there's another one named the same thing that goes on the bottom. Why 2 styles for the same template content? The Transhumanist 16:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me see if I have this straight: sandbox1 would only go on the article Finance?  Then the main subtopics of finance (call these the 2nd tier) would each get their own sandbox, and each article that was a subtopic of the 2nd tier would also display the same sandbox as their 2nd tier parent?  Do I have that right?  The Transhumanist 17:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry I probubly was not clear when I wrote originally. The only thing I created was sandbox1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.  All of those would be Right side Templates.  Sandbox 1 lays out the section of the FINACE section as a whole( In my opinion, finance consists of: Financial Markets, Financial Market Participants, Corporate Finance, Personal Finance, Public Finance, Banks and Banking, and Regulation. Each of those section will have its sub right side template. These templates you see as sandbox 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 (and then 7 and 8 later).  They, essentially just show 1 level deeper.  After this level, all sub levels would be of the bottom template type, (I havn't made any yet but they would look like the one I mentioned earlier, that one is currently existing).  Here would be an example, for the page exchange traded derivatives, you would see on the right hand side the template that is The Financial markets, (user:drewwiki/sandbox2) then at the bottom of that page would be a template very similar to Template:Financial derivatives.  Does that make more sense?--DrewWiki 17:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So, the (right side) templates would each be for one article (of the same name), plus lists of that name as well. They would not be displayed on subtopic pages. That's not generally how we use templates here, but I'll reserve judgement until I've learned more about the bottom templates you envision.  Tell me more about those please.  The Transhumanist 17:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, Let me build a few more, and a test page on my sandbox area, I'll get back to you tonight probably --DrewWiki 17:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually it took a lot less time than I thought to put together a mock up of the basic structure. Let me walk you through it.

Go to user:drewwiki/finance: This is the top level page on Finance, on the right you see the Finance sub topics. Imagine you clicked on Financial markets (from the template), it would look like this user:drewwiki/finance1 Notice that the template on the right is one level lower. Now image, from there you click on The Derivatives Market (in the template on the right) you would see User:Drewwiki/finance2 Notice on this page the template on the right leading you to the sections on the Financial market, and the fiance world in general, but at the bottom, you see the entire Derivatives world. Any page within the derivatives world would have BOTH of these templates thoughts?--DrewWiki 18:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thus providing lateral and vertical navigation options. Extremely cool.  My advice is to differentiate the side templates by giving each its own picture, and then as soon as you've done that, move forward: placing what you've created so far in the various articles (renaming the "sandboxes" to templates, of course), and developing them further in place so that readers may benefit immediately (as long as nobody objects).  As you do so, update the list of templates at WikiProject Finance, and provide instructions on how to apply them to the subject of finance as a whole on Wikipedia.  So far, so good, and keep up the excellent work.  The Transhumanist 00:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool, I'll start work now, I'ts going to take a while, and i'll stage it all so I can do it all at once when there done on my sandbox --DrewWiki 02:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You may want to put them all on one page, to make them easier to view and access, like this: User:The Transhumanist/Workshop/Sandbox6. Or use that page, since it's already set up. I'm also in the process of activating the edit links on each of your sandbox templates, to make editing of each just a click away.  Those links will need to be updated when the templates get moved to template space.  The Transhumanist 02:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I noticed you don't use any javascript enhancements on your account. With the amount of editing you're doing, you'll find the ones I use quite useful.  If you'd like upgrade quickly to some tools that will give you immediate benefit, go to my tools page (on my menu above) and read the instructions at the very beginning (fast upgrade).  If you need help with that, let me know.  The Transhumanist 02:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks i'm going to check them out now, I also am going ot use your sandbox, it does make it easier.

I made a large edit to WikiProject Finance There you will see the template I think have been created and which need to be created. Do you agree? --DrewWiki 15:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I did a lot of work on the securities template a few weeks back, but in this new structure I think i'll just chuck it, fold it into a different template —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drewwiki (talk • contribs) 15:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Keep in mind for future reference, that once you have completed a draft in your userspace, you should rename (that is, move) the draft to its final name, rather than cut and paste. That keeps the edit history intact. In cases where the destination page already exists, cutting and pasting is fine. Don't worry about it. Just remember for next time. The Transhumanist 15:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I've looked everything over, including WikiProject Finance, and I'm impressed. You've given finance a facelift. I look forward to seeing the rest. The Transhumanist 15:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool, I'll rename from now on, I'm able to put in a solid 1 - 2 hours a day later at night, but my edits will be choppy during the day --DrewWiki 15:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. In the meantime, I'll touch up the wikicode and help with placement, and anything else I spot.  The Transhumanist 15:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Another tip: unless it is a proper noun, a pages title only gets the first letter of the first word capitalized.  The Transhumanist 15:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Take a look at the wikicode for the edit buttons. You can cut and paste that into new boxes - you'll just have to edit the page name to be correct (make sure you use underscores instead of spaces for page names included in URLs in all external links).  The Transhumanist 15:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've added the edit buttons back in, and have placed the templates on their respective pages (that you hadn't gotten around to yet). Tier 1 and tier 2 are placed.  I'll start on tier 3 (the subtopic's subtopic pages) when I find a spare moment or two.  The Transhumanist 16:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Made some 3rd-tier placements. Representing the entire third tier is going to be tricky.  There's overlap between hierarchies.  You've got Corporate, Personal, and Public finance covered, but not non-corporate business finance.  And some of the pages qualify as being under all 4.  Mortgage, for instance could conceivably receive all 4 of these templates, and the one on property law as well.  This needs some more thought.  The Transhumanist 16:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the tips, I will try my best to follow them. I'll do some more thinking on some of these over laps, but in the meant time I'm rolling out the ones that are solid.  If you want you can follow the string from Finace all the way to any bond related topic. --DrewWiki 21:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

User Pages discussion
Since you're kind of a specialist in User's pages, you might want to participate in a discussion which I've become involved in at Wikipedia talk:User page. -- J A X HERE | T a l k 17:30, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll check it out. The Transhumanist 17:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Virtual Classroom
Good evening (GMT time); is the VC still running? Anthony cfc [ T &bull; C] 19:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It sure is. There is a discussion on the talk page about what the next lesson should be about.  There should be a new lesson posted soon.  The Transhumanist 19:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

RfA
Hey again; just to let you know that I've got an RfA. Please do not vote on it on the spurring of this message - I am not campaigning for votes here. This message has simply been posted because you are my Admin Coach, and for obvious reasons (Request for Adminship : ) you should probably be aware in order to justify my absense over the next ... 6 days 23 hours :P Regards, Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 00:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good luck. I hope I've been of help.  The Transhumanist 00:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's not jump the gun yet...I may be with you for a few months yet. Sorry I can't thank you for your support vote - I want to remain neutral right up until the point a Bureaucrat either closes the nomination as unsuccessful, or hits that button on Special:Makesysop :) just to confirm, the support vote wasn't because I attracted your attention to my RfA, was it? Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 00:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Miss a student's RfA? I wouldn't dream of it!  If you hadn't mentioned it, I would have spotted it in my next analysis of your contribs.  I'm glad you decided to go for it.  Wikipedia needs admins like you.  I keep running into your works here and there, and I'm impressed.  I really like what you did to the Welcoming committee's greetings page, by the way, and your current user page - wow.  As for the RfA, I think you'll do fine.  Hang in there, and good luck.  The Transhumanist 02:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow! I don't think I've ever been flattered more on WP than this  thanks a lot! I do think that help pages - aka WelCom - need to compromise on the "article-format" page a bit: we can't really expect new Wikipedians to go to a help page that is as confusing as an article and expect them to find what they needed. As for my User Page? I developed it at Simple.Wikipedia, and it was simply a case of copying over. I think it's the first userpage I've done that's pretty much entirely my own :) I really went in for the RfA for the feedback; I also think I may have closed it prematurely - I have a feeling I should have let it run until it really crashed and burned, rather than a little stalling. Anyway, I'll be paying more attention to the VC than ever before; finally, please don't even think about blaming yourself :) the feedback showed me what is needed for me to improve. I await the Classroom more than ever now! Regards, Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 23:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Post script: the above is also in answer to the post essay :-) below, which contains some very kind words. You truly are a brilliant Wikipedian!

Bouncing back...
Anthony,

Well, your RfA was as much a learning experience for me as it was for you, trust me. It shows me I need to examine my students' contributions much more closely so that I can provide better advice. My coaching was far too cursory in this case, and my feedback was lacking in several ways. I apologize for that. But don't take the RfA personally. Instead, take it to heart. Deal with the concerns brought forth in an honest and responsible manner, and chalk up the RfA as a growing experience. Lets lick our wounds and move on...

I don't think you are obsessed with power as some of the feedback concluded. I do think you may be dealing with acceptance issues. And the occasional mood swing. Arjun stated that you should keep your RL (real life) feelings to yourself. I don't agree. Such mentions about yourself that you post in userspace or on talk pages help the community to understand you better, and that's a good thing. They enable us to help you help Wikipedia, and to provide better advice, such as when it may be appropriate to take a wikibreak, or to visit your doctor. Your posts also help us provide better moral support. Emotions which would be cause for concern shouldn't be hidden. Your reaching out allows others to reach out to you in a human way. Sometimes Wikipedia (or Wikipedians) can be too impersonal. How can we care for each other if we don't even know what's going on?

Concerning acceptance, especially now after being examined under a microscope (RfA's can sure feel like that, anyways), it is easy to conclude that you aren't appreciated. The need to feel accepted, perhaps combined with a sheer facination with Wikipedia and its every aspect, can drive us to want to learn everything possible about Wikipedia (the community) and participate in every way we can. But such overexuberance can make others nervous...

What's the solution? Accept the concern that others have expressed. Realize that you may have held some unrealistic expectations. Relax. Slow down. Take a look around. Notice that you are accepted. Many acknowledge you as a very talented editor and thoughtful Wikipedian. That's very cool. And it is an excellent starting point for future growth. The community has given you a message that you have reached beyond the basics too quickly. So all you need to do is get back to basics. On Wikipedia, that means write and edit articles, and contribute to consensus building discussions. Build on your current strengths. Add to your skill base a little at a time. Take on new responsibilities one at a time, giving each the benefit of your time and focus, to master it, before seeking another. And above all, remember why you are here...

...to help communicate the knowledge of the world to the people of the world. That is, to provide and improve Wikipedia's articles, directly or indirectly. I think it would be a good idea to focus on articles more directly for awhile.

Keep in mind that like each of us, Wikipedia is maturing too. Wikipedia, as an organization or institution, is growing in experience. This includes an increased focus on the qualifications required for key positions throughout the organization. Wikipedia is always pushing itself to higher standards. One result of this is that the experience desired of applicants for its management positions (ArbCom, etc.) is measured in years. So don't worry about those. Who knows, in a few years, someone may nominate you for such a position.

In the meantime, lets have some fun. Would you like to collaborate with me on some articles? I would really enjoy that. I look forward to your reply. The Transhumanist 13:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd be honoured! Just to let you know, I'm not much of an article writer myself. I'd cherish the chance to collabrate with a Wikipedian as renowned as you! In a further topic, I was wondering if it is just me or is the "I'm sorry, I have to oppose this RfA - you seem to good to be true" (often found in Neutral) a little bit odd? It didn't appear in my Request, but I'm sure it would have had it run on, and I've seen it everywhere. What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anthony cfc (talk • contribs) 23:38, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

New project
I don't know if you're still looking for a new project, but the Welcoming committee/Welcoming Committee seems to be in need of direction and cleanup. There is a large handful of unclear/redundant/dated pages. Could possibly benefit from your touch. The whole thing horrifies me as much as Starter toolset! --Quiddity 20:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm currently writing up a lesson for the VC, so I'm not currently available. But the solution to the Welcoming Committee is to wipe it clean and start over from scratch.  Replace its present insane page with one that has two welcome message templates only:  one for new users with anonymous IPs, and the other for new users with an account.  Include a short introduction, followed by an extremely short list of links.  I'd say keep it to four:  Contents, Help:Contents/Getting started, Department directory, and Community Portal. These four pages lead to everything the new user needs to know.  On the template for anons, include a request to create a user account.  On the template for new users with an account, teach them how to get back to their user page at any time.  Keep it that simple.  Custom Welcome messages are fine, but archive them on a subpage of the Welcoming Committee's page (and remove any that take a Rubic's Cube champion to figure out how to use).  The overhaul should start with a proposal on the Welcoming Committee's talk page, or just toss in a wiki-grenade.  You seem to enjoy presenting proposals more than I do...  Perhaps you should get the ball rolling.  The Transhumanist 21:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Quiddity, okay, you win... The two nearly identical and confusing page names above piqued my curiosity, so I went to take a look. It turns out there was a dispute over one of the pages (WP:WC), so I jumped right in and tried to fix the page to create a version everyone would be happy with. I also changed the name, cuz it was driving me nutz. It's not perfect, but I tried to capture the essense of both competing versions, while keeping it upbeat and cheerful. You're a pretty good judge of page layout and instructional prose. I'd appreciate it if you'd go apply your magical touch to the page. The Transhumanist 17:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Quiddity, what ever happened with the sidebar project?
If that project is dead, what do you think about the prospect of replacing "Featured content" with "Wikipedia's Contents" in the navigation menu on the sidebar? Contents has the featured contents links prominently displayed near the top, so the lost link wouldn't be going far.

And please update me on the status of the sidebar project. The Transhumanist 21:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It's waiting for a developer with spare time still. They know about it, they're just busy.
 * What happened to Rob Church? And what do mean by "waiting"?  What kind of follow-up has been performed?  Who is pushing it through the pipeline, and how are they going about it?The Transhumanist 11:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Vibber and Church and Centrx all know about it, and get nudged by me every couple months. --Quiddity
 * So it got submitted to bugzilla as Rob Church requested? The Transhumanist 21:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes. --Quiddity 03:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to leave "Featured content", until "Wikipedia's Contents" is more developed (ref tables finished merge, topic lists trimmed a bit, basic lists expanded, some refs added to the academic disciplines page). I'll try to get back to that soon.
 * Half the point of making those pages more visible/accessible is to attract volunteers to them to complete them. If more people visit those pages because they are on the sidebar, then the more people who will work on them.  Requiring that they be developed first creates a catch-22 situation: "we need more volunteers to finish the job. We could get the needed help if the pages were on the sidebar. But they can't go on the sidebar until the job is finished."  The sidebar is just one step up from the Main Page, and placing it there did no harm.  Also, adding links to the lists from the various articles of the same name also seems to have helped, not hurt the project.  The same principle applies to the sidebar. The Transhumanist 11:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It gets plenty of exposure on the Main page. Plus "About Wikipedia" just got added to the sidebar, and I don't wish to see it grow any larger until the sidebar redesign goes through. --Quiddity
 * It's growing entirely independent of the sidebar redesign. Perhps you should increase the requency of your "nudgings". To like once per week.  Didn't Rob Church specifically volunteer to implement this?  The Transhumanist 21:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, and go add your name to this: User:Ambuj.Saxena/Wikipedia-logo. The relevant parties might pay attention eventually... --Quiddity 04:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Concerning fixing the logo, it may be more effective to search for somebody with the graphical skills who can fix the image. Based on the resourcefulness of most Wikipedians, my guess would be that anyone listed on that petition could do it if they put their minds to it.  It could probably even be done by hand if the texture mapping approach failed (artists have been drawing and painting spheres long before computers were around). Then the issue would be no more than swapping the old image with the new, which is probably pretty easy to do (it appears you've already got consensus to do so).  The petitioner may get much better results by scrapping the petition and posting a how-to question and request for assistance on WP:VPT.  The people who hang out there seem to know just about everything.  The computer desk might be another good place to try.  And the editors of the various "3D computer graphics" articles on Wikipedia, like the one just quoted, texture mapping, etc., might be the best people of all to contact.  There also might be userbox categories that cover this.  The petition approach being used just seems like a form of complaining - other approaches work much better, like asking the right people... nicely.  The Transhumanist 11:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I drafted the petition long back; much before I knew the right way to handle such things. But over the past one year, I have raised the issue on many places, including the village pump. See the links page for details. But everytime, I got a very cold response. Mostly because it was found impossible to fix the errors in the logo without substantially altering its appearance. — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 18:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Have you tried . ..
Lupins popups? They are pretty neat. Cut the time you use in searching in half or more. Plus all sorts of nifty things. Also I like your userspace design. Talk to u later, --Darkest Hour • © 19:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I rely on Lupin's popups extensively, and have been for quite some time. A few days ago I started using WikEd (a userscript), which replaces the edit window, and it doesn't seem to have any conflicts with Lupin's.  They are working pretty good together.  For a description of the rest of the tools and techniques I use, see my tools page (on the menu at the top of this page).  And please don't hesitate to point out any new tools that you come across that you think I might find useful.  Thank you.  The Transhumanist 20:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

re: WC revamp
re: ''I thought Andrew's facelift to WP:WC was a very good rethink of the page, and to help smooth out any wrinkles, I've done my best to integrate important points overlooked from the original unformatted version. I've revamped his revamp, have streamlined the page to some degree (removed some boxes), and have tried to include the points of utmost importance in the intro at the top of the page. A more complete explanation of what I've done and why is on the talk page. I look forward to working with you and Anthony on this page further. Sincerely, The Transhumanist 16:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)''


 * Thanks for the heads up... Didn't really have a problem with his change on this page though... was WP:Wc which I generally drop. I think part of that 'misunderstanding' in that there was someone who had changed one of the shortcuts so they pointed to Anthony's first effort. Suggest you might want to add the admins and shortcuts to WP:WC too. If I were emperor of the universe, we'd cobble together some sort of dense set of useful link templates (like Deletiontools) specifically for the newbies to browse... Hoovering on a short link still gives the pagename in the status bar, so 'Good References' and links to how to, can be packed in. Best regards // Fra nkB 20:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "generally drop"? As for being the emperor of the universe, there is no reason why you couldn't design a set of pages like those you describe, in your user space. I'd be very interested in seeing what you came up with.  I'm glad you have no problems with the WC revamp, by the way.   The Transhumanist 20:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * overly tardy:So sorry...
 * (see post below a moment back too.) T'would appear the answer to this is in that same browser... 'Drop' means I include it in some personal post-welcome template greeting. Normally just a couple or three lines, but I almost always work that in as link. Sorry I'm so behind and beleagured... it's been one crises after another, interspersed with 'interruptions three' all week in one rolling series of small disasters.   Gotta go pee on another fire. Let me know if interwikicat-grp is something you and Anthony might care to tackle. Thanks. // Fra nkB 05:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * before I leave...
 * I have, in all honesty, a similar reaction to your page here as I had to Anthony's pages-- theyr'e great looking but too different from the expected norms, causing the new or occasional vistor to experience delays--when they are in all probability rushed. Does anyone volunteer to spend time looking for handles? So I suggest you at least add a prominent 'Bottom post new message button' along the top. I need to add one back on my modest pages.    Such helps the anoms and everyone else communicate on a visually busy page, as they're stuck in the default skin (which being a conservative old coot, is where I edit--so I can see their WYSIWYG), and have no [+] clickbox to add a message at page bottom. I hovered over your buttons looking for one in disguise.     I'm impressed though by the both of you! If you code templates, I have a sticky little challenge for you if your interested in cross sister interwiki linkings. Needs a dynamically self-sizing dependent upon the language links given as a parameter. The sucker would be pretty complex in one way, but pretty straight-forward in others. Would be good as needed for all the sister's. // Fra nkB  20:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I'm a bit behind on archiving. My page should speed up a lot once I remove most of the text.  As for your challenging project, I don't understand your description.  They need a "dynamically self-sizing" what?  What exactly would the template be used for?  The more description you can provide, the easier it will be to figure out what you envision and to determine whether or not it is feasible.  The Transhumanist 20:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've archived the page. This one should be much faster loading now.  I'll be sure to archive more often in the future.  Thanks for pointing that out to me.  The Transhumanist 20:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I wasn't slowed down by the length, but the artwork! Anyway, it's your page! Here's where I'll cobble together a spec on the template, but I've got to run, get into a suit and tie, etc. for RL at the moment. See, If you look at the basic layout of the grapics text in interwikitmp-grp we need to reverse the 'td' and 'tr' relationship, the if's will need switching by the codes I outlined, etc. Gotta run. WT:WC post will have to wait! // Fra nkB 21:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yikes! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Welcoming_committee/Welcome_to_Wikipedia Why'd you move the redirect Again? It should probably stay with WP:WC, IMHO... you're messing with peoples memories! That's harsh on us old folks, LOL.    Took me a bit to find it again! Wouldn't it be better the ole way with it being a non-sub-page, just a name case alternative. At least THAT is a one letter change if you get the wrong number so to speak! (note I activated the shortcut stubbed in above... now we have a names disconnect twice over.) I've a backed up browser or three, one which has a mostly finished 'KUDOS' on that page for you both. Just posted Anthony the same. See ya! // Fra nkB  05:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Having two pages with the same spelling is confusing, and awkward to differientiate between them in discussion. Also, the previous title didn't indicate what was on the page, the current title reflects the article's contents.  Thank you for the kudos.  I'm glad you like the page.  I've transcluded it to my userpage menu because it is appropriate for new users who might come across my page, and to make it easier for me to monitor the page for quality.  I've worked up a very simple streamlined welcome message to post to newusers' pages, which simply includes a link to the "Welcome to Wikipedia" page.  The template name is  .  No sense in repeating in the message things already explained on the Welcome page.  I hope you like it.   The Transhumanist 15:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Tip of the day
Fancy that--I was posting kudos to you two on the WP:WC, and browsed to tomarrows tip of the day. You need to check the size limits, as my cautionary add may need trimmed. That was a little too Bold the way it was written, and may account for much of the backlog on CFD! So fix it up, if you need to. // Fra nkB 20:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Found it. Feb 10th.  I've copy-edited it.  Flows a little better now.  Thanks for pointing out the synonym problem with category creation.  Good point.  The Transhumanist 21:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Next VC assignment
Hi! I'd love to write the next assignment on linkspam. I'm about $$\frac{1}{3}$$ of the way through it already, but I was wondering, what time do you want it submitted by? Cheers! Yuser31415 (Editor review two!) 21:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm working on one about lists, but I'm only about 1/5th done. So whichever lesson is done first, can go next.  The race is on.  Good luck!  The Transhumanist 21:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd love to look it over this weekend (I have a long one, huray) and help out. I also know a few guys in #wikipedia-spam-t who would love to eyeball it. JoeSmack Talk 18:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Cheers, Yuser31415 (Editor review two!) 20:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Mine's about 50% done. How's yours coming along?  The Transhumanist 15:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * About the same :(. Getting there, slowly ... Yuser31415 07:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

RfA ( and User Page Design )
Good evening (GMT time); just to let you know, I'll be with you for a while yet: I've pulled out of my RfA after the support votes were equal to non-support, and when the supporters outnumbered oposers only by one. I now eagerly anticipate the next VC lesson!

On the subject of my Userpage, I'm glad you like it so much that it's in the hall of fame! Any particular reason why you like it?

''See you around! Regards'', Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 17:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I've commented about your RfA above in a continuation of a previous message thread of ours. I like your user page because it is crisp and clean and creative.  I guess html markup really does come naturally to you.  There should be a new lesson posted on the VC within a few days. In fact, the discussion concerning just that is in the message thread immediately preceding this one. [[image:SFriendly.gif|19px]] The Transhumanist 18:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Aubrey de Grey harassment
I don't know if it is of any interest to you, but Aubrey de Grey has been the subject of some persistent harassment by IP 130.63.242.219. Would you suggest a block? I don't know much about the rules for doing this or whether it is appropriate for this situation. --Ben Best 07:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * We must assume he made the edits in good faith (WP:AGF). He may have spotted what he believed was an inaccuracy in the article and naturally wanted to fix it, and he may have been unaware of more up-to-date sources of information on the subject.  Also, he may be new to Wikipedia, so please keep in mind that he may be experiencing frustration that his edits are being reverted.  He also may not know that in order to keep Wikipedia running smoothly, we have a rule (WP:3RR) that nobody should revert more than 3 edits on the same page within a 24-hour period (continued violations may result in the violator being blocked).  Otherwise Wikipedia would degenerate into anarchy.  Be sure to welcome him to Wikipedia, and let him know in a friendly manner that you are more than willing to discuss his desired changes on the article's talk page, and that if he has any questions about how Wikipedia works, that you will be happy to explain anything he is unsure about.  It's important not to take a defensive tone with new users.  Strive for empathy, openess, and friendly cooperation.  It can be rather traumatic for new users to be scolded and have a bunch of rules shortcuts flung at them.  So be personable, and help acclimatize new contributors to Wikipedia.  Please follow Please do not bite the newcomers carefully.  If after being extended every courtesy he decides to disregard his fellow editors and be disruptive, report further violations of 3RR at Administrators' noticeboard/3RR.  I hope you find my comments helpful.  Sincerely, The Transhumanist 11:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Your comments would be appropriate if the edits were neutral. Perhaps you did not read the content of the edits. They were determinedly derogatory: both factually incorrect and designed to present facts in the most negative possible light. --Ben Best 17:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I read the edits carefully. It appears he believes what he has been writing, though his facts are a bit out of date.  He may feel that the article is skewed from the opposite perspective (written to present facts in the most positive possible light).  And because of this he may not understand that POV edits are unacceptable, nor why.  Or he may just be what you've suspected from the start: a vandal or a troll.  You should still try to be nice to the guy.  Please read Don't feed the trolls.  Treat others with the utmost kindess and civility.  Any wrong they do in the face of such treatment will be amplified ten-fold in contrast to your cordiality.  Don't let him rile you up.  The Transhumanist 22:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)



WC
How can I sum the above up....? Oh yes:


 * Post script: I'll work on an adapted welcome message for vandals-in-the-making. Post post script: I'm going to put an image in the welcome page - I think it needs one.
 * Thanks for the barnstar. It's nice to feel appreciated.  Also, good message ideas.  Go for it. The Transhumanist 18:22, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi and Go Remade
I'm not really sure why you moved the hi and go template then changed the style - why move something if your going to make it completely diff (it appears that you were upset that you got overruled on the thousands of edits thing, because after that you went on a tirade of sorts). I personally prefer the old form thus I've remade it - but don't worry, the newer form is still there under the name you picked DanielFolsom T|C|U 00:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I rewrote it, then moved it. No problem. It's not like these are unique articles that can't be repurposed, cloned, forked, etc.  The Transhumanist 02:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As for the "overruling", I think you've mistaken me for someone else. Except for one, all my edits were consecutive.  (And I didn't even notice that one until I checked just now).  I wasn't involved in the discussion that took place previously in the edit history.  I just came across the page and it somehow sparked the urge to edit.  :-)  The Transhumanist 02:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I was getting ready to come warn you about this guy and his ownership issues with this template. I preferred your revisions, though I'm not sure Wikipedia needs yet another welcome template. John Reaves (talk) 01:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't assert ownership over pages. I have not defended my edits to the template in any way, and my edits are totally subject to being altered in any way by anyone as they see fit.  I heartily welcome others to modify my edits.  Though I have to admit, when I started, I didn't expect to be rewriting the whole page.  :-)  I just kept going, cuz I figured if you didn't like it, it could always be cloned off as an addition to the collection.  Keep up the good work guys, and I look forward to seeing your version when it is completed.  Cheers.  The Transhumanist 02:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the confusion, but I was refering to Danielfolsom, not you. I was the one that tried to remove the ridiculous phrase "there are thousands of ways to get help on Wikipeda", and was reverted. John Reaves (talk) 02:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, your message was to me, not him. Sorry - it was indented, so I assumed it was a response. No problem.  I'm just glad it's all straightened out.  As for "thousands of ways", there technically are:  there are thousands of volunteers willing to help (and each of them is "a way"), and then there are thousands of help or instructional pages.  But I doubt the author realized how literal his statement was!  :-)  Well, have fun, and if you need me for anything, just let me know.  The Transhumanist 02:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Welcome!
 Hi,, and Welcome to Wikipedia!  Welcome to Wikipedia!  I hope you enjoy the encyclopedia and want to stay. Before getting too in-depth, you may want to read about the simplified ruleset. Of the many ways to get help on Wikipedia, I personally recommend our wiki-boot camp, where you can chat online with fellow Wikipedians willing to help, or see some of the resources on WP:Wc!

Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have, on my talk page - I'm happy to help.

--- Here are some more resources to help you as you explore and contribute to the world's largest encyclopedia...

Finding your way around:

 * Table of Contents


 * Department directory

Need help?

 * Introduction - quick steps to help you get started.
 * Questions - a guide on where to ask questions.


 * Wikipedia's 5 pillars - our most important rules.
 * Cheatsheet - quick reference on Wikipedia's mark-up codes.

How you can help:

 * Contributing - a guide on how you can help.


 * Community Portal - Wikipedia's hub of activity.

Additional tips...

 * Please sign your messages on talk pages with four tildes( ~ ). This will automatically insert your "signature" (your username and a date stamp). Or use the [[Image:Button sig2.png]] button, on the tool bar.


 * If you would like to play around with your new Wiki skills the Sandbox is for you.
 * If you'd like to meet other new users, be sure to visit our new user log.

Good luck, and have fun. – WinBot 05:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Your post at my talk page
Good evening (GMT time); I've replied to your post (link above left) on my talk page (link above right) regarding the WP:WC page.

Kind regards, Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 20:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Paytakaran
Done. Regards, Grandmaster 06:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Template:Welcomeg
Was there concensus to change and consolidate the template? I don't like it... it sounds like a preemptive scolding, in violation of WP:BITE. I am embarassed to have left it on a users page just now.... I mean "before you get started, there are a few things I must ask"... it really sounds like I have a high opinion of myself and a low opinion of them. Can we change it back, please? Jerry lavoie 02:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm just trying to streamline it. I'll fix the wording.  Thanks for the feedback.  The Transhumanist 02:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your intentions, but it still does not suit me... I still find a negative tone to it, and the suggestion that people do not get along here... I want it to look just like it did when I placed it here: User talk:Notquiteasian00. I can't find that version.  If you can, please put it into my user space at User:Jerry_lavoie/Welcomeg.  I can use it from there until some concensus is arrived at.  Thanks, Jerry lavoie 03:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Wording of streamlined version changed again also.  The Transhumanist 03:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * THANKS. Jerry lavoie 03:28, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

This comment is just in the interest of streamlining. 'finally' as the second part of only two items is a bit awkward, and it makes it look like it has been edited down from a bigger message, consider replacing this with just "also". Jerry lavoie 03:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The change has been made. Thanks again.  The Transhumanist 03:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll probably be hard to please, because I liked the first one so much. But this one lacks a greeting.  I found the old link "your contributions" kinda helpful, as well.  The overall look of the original one was very professional and warm.  I don't like the one with the cookies on it... it's kinda childish, and it lacks all the helpful links.  But like I said, I will be hard to please on this, so don't really try... I have the original one now, and I am content to use it.  Jerry lavoie 04:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree I really preferred the original one and had always wished it had been used on my user page as it had so much great info in it and looked great.  This version doesn't look as good or have as much info.  Was there a discussion somewhere that these needed to be streamlined? I don't understand why the old version needed to be gotten rid of. Stardust8212 04:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem. Template:Welcomeg was merely redirected, and its redirect has now been reverted.  The Transhumanist 09:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I didn't want to revert it myself without at least asking you about it first. Stardust8212 14:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As long as everyone is happy, that's the key. If there is anything else I can do for you, please don't hesitate to ask.  The Transhumanist 16:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Welcome templates
TT, it seems like you and I are working at cross purposes. I keep finding myself reverting your edits, which seems like a waste of time for both of us. Can I suggest that, instead of changing the templates that are already out there, you make new ones as you did with ? I think this would solve many of the concerns I have with your changes. Thanks, -Audacity 19:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me take a look, and then perhaps we can discuss a potential synthesis of our purposes. The Transhumanist 21:54, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I understand your concerns; however, I think your approach may be unnecessarily hasty. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the recent overhaul of warning templates done by WikiProject user warnings. They faced a similar problem, with a clutter of templates, some of which were protected. Their approach was to create a new system, work out the glitches, and begin encouraging people to move over.

Perhaps we could start a similar effort. The warnings project set their templates off by starting each with "uw". Maybe we could start each with "w" - e.g, Template:W, Template:W-shout, Template:W-graphical. -Audacity 00:26, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Before we begin the conversion, let's make all the templates in the WC subspace. That way we can edit them without worrying about real-time effects. Then we can move them to template space when we're done. I just moved to Welcoming committee/Welcome templates/Basic.

I hadn't really thought about which ones I'd like to keep. Maybe we should try making just a few templates with various options. For example, Template:w-graphical would have a color option, so you could choose between and. The basic one could have a div option (div=true or div=false), an icon option, and a header option.

In terms of the naming, maybe we could just do variants of w without using w itself. The basic one would be Template:w-simple or Template:w-basic. Also, I think we should use lowercase, which is easier to type. -Audacity 02:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't realize you were going to make these so quickly. Can we make them in WC space? -Audacity 02:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) -  : I've begun restoring all the original templates, due to the backwards compatibility issue you pointed out. I've also begun creating a new set, naming each one starting with "Welc-". I'm just replacing the distinct designs at the Welcome table. I have no problem with you adding customization features to any of the templates. Feel free. The Transhumanist 02:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * What is "WC space"? The Transhumanist 02:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Welcoming Committee space. I'd like to design the templates first, then switch over to them. -Audacity 02:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You can see an example of what I'm thinking of (and why it might not be wise to be promoting the template while working on it) at Welcoming committee/Welcome templates/Basic. -Audacity 02:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Why not just design them on their end pages in template namespace? I've already completed 5 of them.  Typing out a whole subpage string (such as when testing), is tedious.  The Transhumanist 02:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we could, but as I anticipating doing some page moves, I'd rather keep the template space free of clutter while we work on them. But if you want to make them in template space, that's fine — just don't link to them yet. -Audacity 02:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * They are all named with the same prefix, so they shouldn't get mixed up with the others. The Transhumanist 03:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

There's a sig trick that works with substitution, so we won't need to use a parameter for the sig. I don't think it works with transclusion, so we'll have to emphasize substitution. The Transhumanist 03:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, we'll do them in template space. Can we use w as a prefix?

Yes, let's make substitution mandatory. That way the PAGENAME won't come out, and we can do auto-sig. -Audacity 03:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess we can take W as a prefix. The Transhumanist 03:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Great, and let's also use lowercase letters. -Audacity 03:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me. The Transhumanist 03:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Whatever code you used for welc-icon is causing transclusion problems (such as when displayed on Welcome templates table). The Transhumanist 03:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks OK to me — what are you referring to?


 * Shall we document the templates on the template pages themselves, or on the talk pages? -Audacity 03:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Instructions, kept short and sweet can be included on the templates. That'll be the easiest place for users to find them.  For further documentation, such as a list of templates, should be centralized.  A link could be provided to the Welcome templates page, for instance.  The Transhumanist 03:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * There a table of contents inserted right in the middle of the page (right above "Shout") on Welcoming committee/Welcome templates/Table.  The Transhumanist 03:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Fixed. However, I don't think we can change or make not display the TOC with.


 * Making substitution mandatory will mean that all the templates should be used with subst=subst:. This will substitute any ParserFunctions or PAGENAMES. -Audacity 04:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

It makes the div optional. Try. -Audacity 04:12, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Can we flip it, so the default is the border, and you use a parameter to turn it off? The Transhumanist 04:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Certainly, but should we? I would think no div would be the more popular option. -Audacity 04:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * How could we know that if we don't conduct a survey? It's anybody's guess, I guess.  The Transhumanist 04:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm going on the fact that the old templates didn't have a border. Perhaps no one thought of it, but my guess is that people liked the simple text better. -Audacity 04:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I rather liked the Welcome123 template, it was very informative. Why was this changed? Lrrr IV 04:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I reverted the change, as WelcomeMenu is apparently still in use. -Audacity 04:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This might be a good instance to apply draft and discuss. Many editors will subst a template without checking that it's still identical to the last time they used it. They expect a certain amount of consistency, and might not agree with any particular stylistic choices. That's just one of the reasons why the normal "style" of the Wikipedias is very minimalistic and utilitarian: The more purely-decorative choices are made, the more likely there will be someone who dislikes some aspect. Reduce reduce refine, is my advice. Bare bones is the way we work, and the way we generally prefer to look. --Quiddity 07:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You aren't familiar with the rest of the discussion. Please allow me me to bring you up to speed. We are already doing as you suggest, and have gone two steps further. (See Audacity's talk page, and above). I'm in the process of restoring the original templates, reverting the changes I've made to them - I should be done with this shortly.  Meanwhile, Audacity and I are creating a new set of templates which will replace the old on the lists, retaining most of the functionality of the originals, and adding new features/styles to them via the use of parameters - this has the added benefit of consolidating features into fewer templates, providing less cluttered lists.  The originals will continue to exist off-list. That way, there won't be any backwards compatibility issues with transclusions of the original templates, and users of the originals won't be caught off-guard if they continue using them, providing the consistency you mentioned.  Those who start using the updated versions, from the lists, will have the benefit of instructions provided on each template.  The new set of templates will be fully constructed and tested before placing them on the selection lists on the Welcoming committee's pages.  I look forward to your further comments.  The Transhumanist 14:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

TT, please wait for the templates to be both finished and approved by the larger community before linking to them. While the templates table is in WC space, it is redirected from Wikipedia:Welcome templates, and so is widely accessible. So I want to get everyone's approval and comments, as well as add any additional features, before bringing the templates live. Thanks. -Audacity 02:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems unnecessary in this case, as the templates are nearly identical to the current ones, being upgrades. But if you'd like to do it this way, that's fine by me.  Though I've swapped the 3 designs I recently added with their w-versions, as those are merely the final drafts of new additions to the collection.  Feel free to improve them further, but I plan on using them, so please don't clutter them with tags. Thank you. The Transhumanist 11:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi
I have exchanged a block of 24 hours for personal attacks against not getting involved in disputes for 72 hours. Fad (ix) 18:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * He already know. 1)Paytakaran is the province mostly, this is the only fact. 2)Paytakaran has only been an Arenian province, Albania had Caspiane not Paytakaran. Just like Istanbul is a Turkish city not Greek, Constantinople was a Greek city. 3)There was no Paytakaran being a central city also known as Beylaqan. Presenting this as fact is to impose one position against the other. Beylaqan was a town, some transliterate it as Paytakaran, but this would go in a disambiguation page and could not be presented in parallel in the main article which is about the province. Anyway, you are corrupting me :) I am supposed to contribute in science related articles for those 72 hours, the was the promess I mad to the administrator who blocked me. Fad (ix) 19:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I can ask the admin to allow you to contribute to this particular page, if you wish. Grandmaster 06:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree with 1a), it is POV, presented as absolute truth. Kasp, Caspiane was once to the Medes, that Caspiane was Paytakaran is not certitude, check Tigran evidence page. The same goes with “Caucasian Albania.” Kasp or Caspiane should have its own article, much like Constantinople and Istanbul have their own article. That sentence would be fine for Caspiane, but not Paytakaran, which was more modern. Even Armenians had two different terms for the two entities, one was the Kasp, the other was Paytakaran.

1b), I disagree with, there are conflicting evidences there, more so when Paytakaran being an Armenian word, has never been used to name that town in the Armenian literature.

1c) is fine but too strong.

1d) is fine.

1e) is fine, but Grandmaster selectively quote Strabo, this wasn’t all he had said.

1f) is more about Caspiane, Paytakaran is a more modern entity.

1g) this is conflicting, and selectiveness, even Goldberg, who is very pro Azeri, write in her work, includes the Armenians being a significant portion of the population. Strabo, in the same section where he says being Armenian, say they all spoke the same language.

2a) is simply too bogus, for me to even comment on.

2b)We don’t know who the parcies are.

2c) Grandmaster is implying, most revolutions have been done by revolutionaries of the same nation the government represent. This doesn’t mean they were not Armenian. Also, Grandmaster has dumped much stuff with different periods. Again, I stress that Caspiane and Paytakaran are two different entities of different periods.

2d) Grandmaster is interpreting Hewsen, beside even Goldberg disagree.

3a) Again, Grandmaster is transformating the article, by reinterpreting what was Paytakaran. Being the province, every other thing that could be implied goes in a disambiguation page.

3b) Grandmaster is connecting Paytakaran with a Turkic tribe, a millennium after, what became of a Muslim town, has no relevancy with the province of Paytakaran. Fad (ix) 17:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Beylaqan
Neither Beylaqan (town) nor Beylagan (town) (see Beylagan) have their own article. Perhaps such articles could help in relation to the Paytakaran dispute. Then links could be provided to them in context within your draft. If you create these, please be careful how you apply synonyms to the places - it may be best to provide any alternate names in the body of the article and not as parenthetical annotations following the lead word, as they might be presented out of context when provided as direct synonyms). The Transhumanist 13:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That might be a good idea, but still I think that the new article should be linked to the article about Paytakaran. Grandmaster 13:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Once the article(s) on the towns are created, you can propose their addition as links to Paytakaran. The Transhumanist 13:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I already created a stub, please see a link in your first post. Grandmaster 13:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I spotted it, thanks. The Transhumanist 13:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see Beylagan (town). Grandmaster 13:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought Paytakarn (city) was in ruins a few miles away. The Transhumanist 13:57, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi again. Is there any progress with our mediation? Thanks. Grandmaster 08:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Audacity
Good afternoon (GMT time); regarding the above post, everything's fine! Sorry about my recent inactivity - you might have noticed the notice at my talk page, but here goes: basically, I'm a bit out of the editing mood right now, and I've ran out of energy, so I've taken a short break for 1-2 days to try to revive myself. I love Wikipedia with a passion, but it does sap my energy at times.

When I return, I hope to work on the WC pages, including that Welcome Message adapted for vandals; until then, see you soon!

Kind regards, Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 18:07, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

HTML and template needs
Hi again! Can you see this, and the edit he made. T'would be nice to have a welcome template reflecting my comments to him/her about such security concerns. There is no reason for an sister editor to not have an account here and provide a soft-redirect to their home wiki,and clearly whomever made that edit new more about the math blocks than I-- I'd asked CBD to see if there was a fix on that just last night. I've got an account like that on all sister's for WP:TSP work, and a welcome with some resource lists like your current page top (Impressed again!) is I think a good idea for such occasional contributors. IP edits worry people, is the sub-theme, as they do.

Have a need to have a number of different pairs of two templates to co-operate at page top top, (e.g. ) where ideally, the fixed width interwikicat-grp has a little background showing beside it in the upper right corner, and that other template (there are others) scrunches over and 'talls' up a little so the two make a pair of rectangles in the corner. I can fiddle with the wide template and restate the rectangular params and margins in pixels so it takes a param (move=) and get it to behave with parserfunctions, but don't know how to make it auto-size (since can't predict what Zoom setting a user may be using, nor their default fonts, etc.) and still compensate for the 250px width of interwikicat-grp. Hence, I figure you may know.
 * Part II

At the least, would think need an equation to scale whatever em's are to pixels and subtract out the diff to establish a scaled right margin, when the related #if: logic zeroizes the left margin, etc. Can you do this with that wide template, and when it works, drop me a note, or better yet an email so I can copy the technique for the others. I really need such on most other sisters, so will be a big help! I'm going to be busy with real life most of the day, and much of my wiki-time is currently focused in Meta or the Commons, so the email is probably surest fast way for me to get a timely response--including find someone else!  Have a great day. // Fra nkB 16:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't mean to nag, but since you were growsing at Audacity... I need to at least know whether I should ask someone else on the above, if you're not willing or able to figure out a method. Let me know one way or the other, I need a solution. Thanks // Fra nkB 06:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Was I growling? I don't think he took it that way - at least I hope he didn't.  But since you got the impression that I was, I'll be more careful how I address people in the future.  By the way, nag all you want - the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  I've taken this long to reply because I've been having trouble comprehending your post.  I've parsed it carefully, and have answered what I could figure out below...


 * Concerning the anonymous IP, it may have been a one-off use. He might never get your message.  You might be able to find him by posting to the discussion page of the master help page for math blocks, or by searching for similar edits on the other Wikimedia wikis.  Posting a tip re:anons on TSP instruction pages, and in the instructions to the TSP template, might also be a good idea for heading interwiki IPs off at the pass.
 * I see enough of these guys that know what they're doing that it would be nice to point out they're raising anxieties a bit. Some are undoubtably mainly editing foreign language sister projects, but others are on other English language sister projects and make a change here. I'm sure of that for a couple of the WP:TSP changes I've seen, as the same IP is making the same change on multiple English projects. NBD, but since you're real active with the WC matters, I thought I'd raise the point.


 * I don't know of a fix for the nested math blocks. I've come across similar problems with angle and double square brackets breaking substituted templates.  URL commands are also finicky in this regard.


 * The code for providing a greeting with just a link to the welcome page is {{subst:w-link}}. I'm glad you like my page top, by the way.  The welcome there is the Welcoming Committee's greeting page, transcluded one-section-at-a-time in order to apply alternate formatting.


 * I like your idea concerning specialized greetings pages. We could have one for anons, another for the curious vandal who adds nonsense to a page just to see what happens, etc.  Spotting inter-wiki editors like the one you found above seems like a rare occurrence - I doubt a greetings page framed for them would get much use, which is a concern because resource pages tend to become outdated, requiring maintenance to keep them fresh (the protected welcome messages are a case in point).  But if such a page has a dedicated maintaner,then there's no problem.


 * I couldn't understand your second paragraph very well. I don't know what you mean by "a little background showing", "scrunches over and talls up a little", "the wide template", "rectangular params", "so it takes a", and "and still compensate for the 250px width".


 * Interleaved clarification
 * If you bound the typical template inside a narrow div style= block setting a narrower margin, it composes so that it has a narrower width. Since the text is the same, it wraps more lines, so becomes taller and narrower. That's scrutched. If you eliminate the left margin or reduce it, it moves 'over' so, 'scrunches over'. "A little background showing" simple means I want to see a small sliver of the page background in between the two templates, not abutted borders. – FAB


 * You should be able to get around a default font by explicitly setting the font for the templates. Though I don't work with fonts much, so I may be blowing smoke.


 * I've never heard of autosizing browser zoom level using wiki-markup. It generally takes a script to identify or set zoom-level, and scripts are disabled on MediaWiki except on each users' monobook.js page.  Though messing with users' browser settings seems to go against Wiki-philosophy and might be seen as intrusive.  Your best bet for finding an answer is to post your query on WP:VPT.


 * Yeah, but I figured I'd pick on you first, as you clearly have a handle on HTML! – FAB


 * I couldn't understand your third paragraph either, because it refers to elements presented in the second paragraph.


 * There's an explanation of em to pixel conversion at http://www.knowbility.org/pipermail/accessibility_sig_knowbility.org/2005-September/000091.html, but I don't see how that would do you much good without knowing the zoom level. But since ems are relative to page size, shouldn't you express everything in ems?  The Transhumanist  17:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * OKAY – Thanks, I'll look into that next. My desktop computer is still sick and badly needs a reboot, so I'm trying hard to close out suspended work ASAP. Don't take my occasional loose expressions to heart--I'm likely teasing you 'a little' if it seems critical. I'm pretty direct when I've cause, so something which seems subtle is most likely what I use as a sense of humor falling flat on it's face!  I was just amused by your post on Audacity's page asking about the hold up, or however you termed it, seeing as there is life outside wiki's for some. (I'd much prefer a wiki-friend to be off having fun, especially on a hot date!, than to be available 7-24-365, so to speak!)


 * Here's the key, are ems fixed on a page width? Or do they vary with the users settings. My desktop screen will go 15,000+ pixels, but web pages never seem to use that. I suspect most top out at and assume 1024. If the em's are fixed, then the 250px wide interwikicat-grp can then be subtracted from the operative upper limit. Our pages reserve some width for the search bar, interwiki's, et. al. (depending on skin too, but that also appears to be circa 250-280 pixels as I see in on my computers), but there must be a defined page set-up for user selected Zoom == OFF. Knowing that, one can scale to pixels, and do the math I need, as I can brute force the effect I want on a particular zoom setting. I'm disinclined to fix font size in any absolute way... that stops the vision impaired from seeing larger at need, so I'd hope for a zoomable solution.     If that clarification, or the interleaved ones above helps jar any thoughts use I can use, I should be working mainly here, if you'd be kind enough to pop me an answer there. Thanks. // Fra nkB  00:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

(BTW-- if you answered by email, my desktop has 'issues' at the moment, so I didn't see it! Sorry 'bout that--you have no idea how much!  [but seriously too!]) // Frank

Re: What's the hold-up?
I'm back. One example of a change I'm testing is the new Template:W-graphical, which features options for various colors. If you'd like, try out some new color schemes for it. -Audacity 05:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice job with cleaning up W-graphical; looks much neater now. Though I notice that strange bug is still there...


 * I readded the warnings which you had removed a few days ago. Since they are noincluded, they won't show up if you use the template. However, as we begin to solicit feedback, I would like these templates to be open for testing that may occasionally render them unusable. I also took the templates off of the WC pages for the same reason.


 * The templates seem ready for initiation to me. If you agree, I would like to begin like this:


 * 1) Promote templates at Wikipedia talk:Welcoming committee, on the talk pages of the current templates, on IRC, and anywhere else we can think of
 * 2) Based on feedback (directed to the WC talk page), redesign templates and/or create additional ones
 * 3) Replace WC template page and template table with links to new templates
 * 4) Perhaps, if these templates are widely liked, encourage migration from old templates to new templates by marking old ones as deprecated (this is a maybe)
 * What think you?  Λυδ α cιτγ  04:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Good plan, but perhaps we should test them ourselves first for awhile. Then when we're done, we could solicit feedback. At that time, other places to post notices could include the Community Bulletin Board, the Village Pump (technical), the  Help Desk, and the New Contributors' Help Page.  And wherever else helpers and template techies hang out.  Is there a template markup userbox? - we could contact some experts from its category if there is one.  Let the feedback begin!  The Transhumanist 04:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Observation: w-screen can really clash with the formatting on some userpages, and therefore it would be useful for it to have its own formatting switched on/off. I stripped it down for use on User:DTGardner/Help - The Transhumanist 05:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Done (clear=true).


 * They seem functional to me (ironic, I know, that I am saying this). What would you like to test for?


 * There is a category (actually quite nicely organized): Category:User template coder.


 * By the way, your talk page breaks the edit section functionality. It's a pain with so many discussions to edit the entire page, so maybe you could archive?  Λυδ α cιτγ  02:46, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Community Portal Notice
I noticed that you pulled my addition to your notice on the Community Portal. Perhaps it's not good to have public debates on these types of things. I continue to feel that this sort of approach is against the principles of Wikipedia and thus should not be pursued. I invite you to remove your notice and continue the discussion on the Talk Page. --Richard 16:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The article drive that I announced (though I didn't use that terminology), was posted in accordance with the Community Bulletin Board's instructions. The Transhumanist 18:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The point is that the underlying motivation of the article drive is inconsistent with Wikipedia's stated principles. I urge you to remove the announcement (or change the page that it points to so that it is in accordance with Wikipedia's principles).  Your vision of a website that helps people who need it is laudable.  Unfortunately, Wikipedia is NOT the place for it.  --Richard 19:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The motivation is not inconsistent, since it is subject to consensus-building, and also subject to Wikipedia's various decision making processes (which include the use of notice boards). I have been cooperating with other editors on the listed articles, and we are reaching acceptable compromises throughout.  Whether the page I pointed to is a drive, a discussion, or a proposal, all of these are included the Community Bulletin Board's instructions.  Just because a proposal has the potential to be  rejected doesn't make it inelligible for proposing.  The Transhumanist 19:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the page in question is a user page and is not a proposal in Wikipedia space. I considered putting it up for AFD but user pages and user talk pages are given more leeway than mainspace and Wikipedia pages (as you learned through the AFD process on Admin School).  The fact that it is in user space doesn't make it immune to AFD but it does garner it more leeway.


 * All that having been said, some of the sentiments expressed are inconsonant with Wikipedia principles and policy and, as such, should be discussed by changes to the policy pages and not backdoored through User Talk pages and notices on the Community Portal. I will start the process with an RFC so that we can see what the consensus seems to be.
 * --Richard 20:35, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * There was no backdooring intended, and I subsequently posted the issue to the village pump once it became apparent there were objectors. I had no idea there would be any objection to improving the articles nor the aspects of the articles I pointed out.  Tell me which passages you are concerned with, and I will gladly move those to the talk page.  The Transhumanist 20:41, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the offer to move the disputed passages to the Talk Page but I suspect you will find that this is a difficult thing to do when you grasp how much I am objecting to. I have created a version of the page that identifies the problem passages with strikeout .  You will find that there is almost nothing left of the page text when the strikeout text is removed.  The problem cannot be resolved by removing a phrase or sentence here and there.  The problem is that the basic premise of your article drive/proposal/whatever is misguided.
 * --Richard 21:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The important thing is the list itself, which you graciously left intact. I've cleaned up your draft, added a few things while trying to abide by your PC protocols, and have changed the link in the CBB and in my user pages header to point to the new version.  In the future, when I notice ommissions and oversights in the crisis articles, I'll be careful how I frame my reports of them.  The Transhumanist 22:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Nomination and project suggestion
Hello. If it's okay, I'd like to nominate myself for your user page design "hall of fame." If you want to, check out my user page (don't forget to look at the subpages). Also, may I have your signature, PLEASE??? Thanks for your time! -- Cremepuff222 ( talk,  sign book ) 20:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your autograph! Did my user page look alright?

-- Cremepuff222 ( talk,  sign book ) 21:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You're user page is awesome, and your style and enthusiasm reminds me of user:Anthony_cfc who currently has 3 designs in the Hall. I'll take a snapshot of yours and will add it to the list when I get a moment (I'm about to eat lunch).


 * By the way, I need to let you know that there's a problem with this part of your signature:  .  It keeps showing up at the top of my talk page.


 * I noticed that almost all of your edits are to user pages. Would you be interested in working on the encyclopedia?  There's a project in the Wikipedia namespace that I know of in which your graphical and wiki-markup skills would be very applicable.  Let me know if you are interested. The Transhumanist 21:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry it took me so long to respond! I didn't realize that you would answer in your talk page!


 * I think I fixed the signature thing. I am interested in that thing you told me about. Also, do you think that you can respond on my talk page? Thanks! -- Cremepuff222  ( talk,  sign book ) 21:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the signature thing still doesn't work right. That template you are using in your signature – that isn't included in your autosig in your "my preferences", is it?  Templates and images wreak havoc with page formatting when placed in the autosig, and therefore the autosig instructions specifically state not to include them in there.  Just thought I'd check.  The Transhumanist 15:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

This is my exact signature as shown in my preferences:

-- Cremepuff222 ( talk,  sign book )

I don't see anything wrong, and my signature doesn't mess up anyone else's pages. (Can you please respond on my talk page?) -- Cremepuff222 ( talk,  sign book ) 00:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The above signature appears to be error free. The problem seemed to have been caused by the following subpage template:

 


 * BTW, I've added your user page to the list of examples at the UPDC. Nice job.

The project I'm hoping you'll take a look is Welcoming committee, its subpages, and welcome page templates (especially those). Anythony cfc, Audacity, and I have been revamping the project. Audacity and I are currently working on improving the set of welcome messages which the Welcoming committee uses to greet new users. (See Audacity's message to me above). I look forward to seeing your creative input on the project. The Transhumanist 18:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for putting me in the hall! It's an honor. I browsed through some of the welcoming committee subpages and templates, and I would like to help you and the others to improve it. I may not be able to do so at some points, because I'm currently adopted by Xiner (he's really great!). -- Cremepuff222 ( talk,  sign book ) 22:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Help Page
The Transhumanist, I would like to thank you for your thorough and complete response to my question, it is greatly appreciated. Sincerely, DTGardner 01:41, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. Well then, let me introduce you to the Wikipedia concept of "random act of kindness..."  Watch out, it's contagious!  [[Image:Smiley.svg|18px]]  The Transhumanist 16:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:WELCOME/WP:WC updates
Good evening (GMT time); I've updated the WP:WELCOME page with a policies and guidelines section (on the right) after suggestions at the WP:WELCOME talk or WP:WC talk (not sure which) page. Hopefully you find it satisfactory - if not, please improve it!

How are things? Any news on the next VC Lesson? Regarding WP:WC, that border looks familiar :) shall we convert the WP:WELCOME page to gold to maintain consistency? I'm rather tired of the blue.

Kind regards, Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 19:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Post script: sorry if there are any typos - I'm using IE...to my disgust :P hopefully FF will be up and running soon.


 * I like your policy section. It only needed a little touch up.  Nice job.  And feel free to touch up my touch ups.


 * I've fallen behind on the VC, due to all the projects I've taken on. I guess I should just create the subpage and paste in what I've written so far.  That way, others could help me complete it (hint hint).


 * I figured you'd recognize your formatting on the WC. [[Image:Biggrin-smiley.png|20px]]  And by all means improve the welcome page in any way you see fit – I always look forward to your page enhancements.  Now that you mention it, I agree that it could use some brightening up. Go for it!


 * I've created a new navbar and have placed it on some key directory and resource list pages. I've also cleaned those pages up a bit (by adding formatting, etc.)  Please take a look to see if they need any touching up or further improvement:


 * Last but not least, I've been improving personal crisis related articles. Since some readers in crisis will no doubt check Wikipedia to help them figure out what they can do about their troubles, the articles should be ready for them.  Even though the articles must remain neutral, they should still provide all pertinent information on the articles' respecitve topics, and thus the crisis cases would be covered by default.  These look like some of the best articles for an admin in training to cut his teeth on.  (hint hint).  See User:The Transhumanist/Help me.  The Transhumanist 04:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * P.S.: Audacity and I have been working on a replacement set of the welcome message templates. They have new formatting, are heavily rewritten, have customizable features, etc.  They aren't linked or displayed on the WC's pages yet.  Most of them can be found here:  User:The Transhumanist/Workshop/Sandbox8.    The Transhumanist 05:36, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good afternoon (GMT time); I'm currently doing a quick re-vamp of my user page, focusing on more minimalism. Hopefully it should be done in a few hours - then, I'll crack on with those articles!


 * I'd recommend copy+pasting in what you have already written for those extra projects - you can still improve at the actual page, but so can everybody else! "Hint hint" :P I think I can see who that is directed too  give me a shout if you need help!


 * Kind regards, Anthony cfc  [ T &bull; C] 17:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Welcoming Template
Hello! I created a new template similar to my user page to welcome new users. I also added a message to the talk page for the welcoming templates asking if it was okay. COuld you look at it for me, just to be sure that I included all of the neccessary points? It's located at User:Cremepuff222/Greeting. Thanks! -- Cremepuff222 ( talk,  sign book ) 19:59, 1 March 2007 (UTC)