User talk:Theroadislong/Archive 74

Paid again? reply to my contribution
Dear Theroadislong,

On my talk page you suggest that I get paid for this entry about the COIN Framework. If I was, I would definately add the 'Paid' remark as you suggested, but quit frankly: I do not get paid for COIN, I maintain COIN in my own spare time. I will explain exactly all of my affiliations below:

I have an affiliation as a trainer for a company called Gladwell Academy, which provides trainings about COIN. But I do not work there as an employee and I do not own any shares. I do not get paid by Gladwell for my work on COIN nor for the publication of material on Wikipedia.

Apart from Gladwell Academy there is one other company that I know of that provides training and consulting services for COIN, this company is called AgileExec in Budapest. I know the people, but I do not own any shares and do not get paid for any work on COIN or on the publication on Wikipedia.

My employer, BlinkLane Consulting, supports my work for COIN, but it is not part of job and the company does not pay me for it and explicitly does not pay me for any contributions on Wikipedia.

Neither of the companies above have paid me (or compensated me in any other way, not in money, material, time or other benefits) for the development of COIN, for any publicity about COIN, or for any work on Wikipedia. This is a true open-source endeavor that I undertake out of my own personal interest in the subject.

In 2019 I published a book entitled 'Continuous Innovation', which is about the business principles that underpin the COIN Framework. The book mentions the framework but I do not get paid by my publisher or any other third party for mentions of the book or the framework on Wikpedia (or anywhere else for that matter).

I do see how you can think that my work, which is about business, may seem commercial, but it is not. In the same way that other open-source programs are not commercial. In this way the COIN Framework is very much comparable to the published https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaled_agile_framework

Best regards,

Arent
 * You say that your "employer, BlinkLane Consulting, supports my work for COIN" this would mean that you are considered to be a paid editor. Theroadislong (talk) 11:56, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Greetings
Hi Theroadislong,

I have tried to re-write whole article once again and submitted it. Hope it is good enough to go published.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Bella_Vita_Organic

--Yourwikibuddy (talk) 11:59, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Request on 16:02:35, 23 July 2021 for assistance on AfC submission by Bsrthereal
Hello Theroadislong, I have edited the whole article, thinking this would do for a published page. Can you please help me stating where I'm lacking? There is a reference to the IMDb page of the film along with other references. Wikipedia guide says IMDb is a reliable source of information. Please do tell me what else do I have to provide. Besides the film is in the post-production stage, hence there aren't a ton of articles available regarding it.

With Thanks.

Bsrthereal (talk) 16:02, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * IMDB is not a reliable source as it is user-editable. I'd be interested in seeing where you read what you claim. 331dot (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You are miss-informed IMDb is most definitely not a reliable source, see [], if there are no reliable independent sources then we simply don't have an article. Theroadislong (talk) 16:07, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello Theroadislong,

In response to your previous message regarding paid editing, I am to state that, it's about a regional independent film, scheduled to be available for viewers from early 2022. No one has appointed or paid me to write the article.

Thank you

Just left a message on my talk about page (Presearch)
Carrabre (talk) 22:14, 23 July 2021 (UTC)Carrabre

Hey Theroadislong, i replied to your comment on my talk page talk:Carrabre,

August Editathons with Women in Red
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 22:27, 23 July 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Amazon ref removed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Segunoloye/sandbox
Hi,

Concerning my article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Segunoloye/sandbox. I've removed the Amazon link. As you recommended in March. I've added more references.

Awaiting your approval.

Thank you, Segun.

Segunoloye (talk) 12:35, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Your draft is actually here Draft:Crystabel Goddy and you have not removed the Amazon link. Theroadislong (talk) 12:41, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you link removed
Thank you Theroadislong for your clarification. I've removed the Amazon link. .

Your approval will be much appreciated.

Kind regards, Segun.

Segunoloye (talk) 14:17, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Edited as per your instructions
Hi Theroadislong

I have re written the article and added some sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Bella_Vita_Organic

I have tried to write it in a neutral point of view as guided by you and other experienced editors.

Please review it.

--Yourwikibuddy (talk) 15:38, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi Theroadislong,

Thanks for responding so quick.

I am not getting any sort of money or any benefits for writing the Wikipedia article for Bella Vita Organic and neither am i associated with anyone within this company.

I have used their products in past and got good visible results. I even gifted the products to my fiancé and she too liked it.

From there it came in my mind to search more about this company. Then I googled for Bella Vita Organic wikipedia for their wiki page. I did not found any so decided to write about them.

--Yourwikibuddy (talk) 15:52, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Made changes in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Bella_Vita_Organic
Hi @Theroadislong,

I have made the edits.

Please take a look.

Thanks,

--Yourwikibuddy (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

thanks
thank you for reviewing the page I am trying to create, I am new to this whole thing and trying to contribute. Could I pay you to professionally edit the page I am trying to create to show that it's noteworthy (not implying it isn't but, you're clearly more experienced than myself) Not sure if I'm allowed to leave my email but its onephotohelp@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by MCbotski (talk • contribs)


 * MCbotski has bypassed AFC and created Righ Knight in article space via cut and paste. Does not seem ready, and requires some admin attention to move it back as Draft:Righ Knight is blocking draftify... not to mention offering to pay for articles is not a good sign. --- Possibly &#9742; 21:45, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

World Business Chicago
Thank you for your comment. The decision to include the mission statement of the organization is based on precedent for entries on other economic development organizations and nonprofit organizations, and not intended to be promotional. For example, OPEC, Amnesty International, Organization for Human Brain Mapping, National Parents Organization, etc. all include some version of "The stated mission of the organization is..."

Fbpfdemo (talk) 21:30, 23 July 2021 (UTC).


 * That's as maybe but Avoid mission statements says to avoid them. Theroadislong (talk) 21:33, 23 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Theroadislong. This page certainly does not need a mission statement. Again, the decision to include the statement was/is based on (1) trying to include as much pertinent information on the organization as possible and (2) follow the precedent set by at least 5,000 other Wikipedia pages that include the phrase "The stated mission of the organization is..." If it is removed from this draft page, shouldn't it also be removed from all other pages that include mission statements? (Not trying to be snarky here. Just trying to understand the rules of the road.) Fbpfdemo (talk) 22:05, 24 July 2021 (UTC).
 * There are no rules, just guidance. Theroadislong (talk) 07:48, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Mahalingam Thangavelu
Hello, Thank you for providing specific comments on "Mahalingam Thangavelu". The last two paragraphs have been deleted of the content that did not have the citations. Mukherjee27 (talk) 14:01, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I have removed the Amazon link
Hi,

I have removed the Amazon link and expected that my article be approved. But i am surprised someone else took it over and asking for the same thing you asked for that made me to add those new references. I think this is very unfair. You are the one handling this article, why handling it over to someone else to be requesting for the same thing.

I removed the two previous references and added new ones and yet someone else is asking for more references.

Awaiting your response.

Segun.

Segunoloye (talk) 14:14, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the quick approval
Hello! Thank you so much for quickly approving my draft yesterday. I have recently created a new one for a New Zealand 2020 Documentary. You can see it here Draft:Emma (Documentary). Thank you! --ArleneHerman (talk) 09:22, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft: Dead Space (upcoming video game)
Hi Theroadislong,

Thank you for reviewing the new page for the upcoming remake of the 2008 game Dead Space. I created the page today and it was taken down for draft review due to it needing more citations from reliable, independent sources. I changed all sources to well-known, edited, and independent news media organisations and in your review you commented that the page is “too soon.” I’ve added several more sources from other reliable publications, and am wondering if you can clarify what you meant by your comment.

All the best,

EvilWeevil77

EvilWeevil77 (talk) 08:27, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * See Too soon. Theroadislong (talk) 09:25, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Tommy Adkins author
I completely understand not notable, that's purely opinion, that's fine. However unreliable sources is a incorrect statement and should be removed. It's plain you didn't fact check you only judged. 2600:1700:2160:4A70:0:0:0:55E (talk) 14:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Your draft Draft:Tommy Adkins author has zero sources? If you added Google searches, Amazon book sellers they would not be reliable. Theroadislong (talk) 15:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Geeta Dayal
Thanks so much for your feedback! Much appreciated! Hildegaaard (talk) 16:00, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Khan Sir
You cant see I have addressed he has 11 million subscribers on Youtuber and you all are saying he is not notable Snixtr (talk) 16:06, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The number of subscribers he has, has no bearing on his notability and in any case the source for that  doesn't support it. Theroadislong (talk) 16:09, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

A simple "Thank you"!
Thank you for enabling me for once to see clearly where I needed to click in order to make contact with someone who had sent me a message. My attempt to begin to create a Wikipedia page had been leaving me feeling 'very ancient', since I started out on the road yesterday! At nearly every step along the way I had begun to realise that the jargon I seem to need to understand made me feel even more of a dinosaur than what I previously had considered I am! As someone who is almost completely self taught regarding the use of a computer, to receive your message that my submission had been accepted, even if only as a stub, is so gratifying.

I am not sure if I will achieve anything further, as sadly my artist, Thomas Ellerby became largely forgotten when he died in 1861. He has never had anything written about him, nor his work catalogued. Over the past five years I have been researching for a biography on him and collating his work and trying to get him on Wikipedia is a first attempt to give him some credit for what he did achieve. So thank you for helping me begin to move further along that road. I do have an image of his self portrait that was exhibited at The Royal Academy, so perhaps I will try to add that, when I've had a chance to try to understand the guide on how to do it.

Apologies for the length of this message but just wanted to let someone know how I am now feeling.

Thank youLowryedale (talk) 16:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You have done well, creating an article from scratch is the most difficult task on Wikipedia. The referencing format needs some improvement, you can get help with that at WP:REFB, good luck. Theroadislong (talk) 16:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Thomas Ellerby Portrait Painter
Sorry to bother you again but I would appreciate clarification as I seem to have already achieved 9 edits, so if I manage to add an image to my article (if ever I can find it again) would that take the article further on its journey?

Thank you from a very hesitant contributor in case I mess it up!Lowryedale (talk) 17:47, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Adding an image is an area fraught with difficulties due to copyright laws, far better to spend your time correcting the references. Theroadislong (talk) 18:17, 26 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Am now really concerned as only part of my article appears to be missing from what I submitted this afternoon and someone has added an image of the Paxton painting - not me! Have far more information than what now appears to have been made available!!!

Oh dear!.Lowryedale (talk) 18:51, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Myself and editor have been working on the draft adding more detail and sources, nothing to be concerned about Wikipedia is a collaborative project! Theroadislong (talk) 18:56, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Thomas Ellerby Portrait Painter
Thank you for your reply. I do understand your comment on including an image. The one of his self portrait is one for which I have the copyright. It is my photograph, so would you still advise against including it?

I also have up to date information and photographs (mine) of the Paxton at Kew. Since the one you have kindly included was taken, the portrait has been on a fascinating tour before returning to Kew, before which it was conserved and cleaned and now looks very different from earlier.

Lowryedale (talk) 19:26, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

Hey there - Hvnnibvl editors
Hey there - we removed unremarkable citations from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hvnnibvl page, only leaving pages that comply with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(music) guidelines. Would appreciate the removal of the music notability template message.

As for the autobiography template message, edits were not made by Hvnnibvl or anyone immediately connected to him, we just use this account to make edits to his page as we are fans that want to contribute to his story.

Thanks for your input. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvnnibvl (talk • contribs) 08:47, 27 July 2021 (UTC)


 * You will need to change your user name and user accounts are strictly for single person use. Theroadislong (talk) 08:52, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Response to your rejection of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Project_Business_Management
Hi Theroadislong, I very much disagree with the assessment that the subject of Project Business Management already exists on Wikipedia under project management.

To put it in a straightforward example, sorting Project Business Management under project management would be equal to sorting the international book publishing industry under the act of writing a book.

Indeed, Wikipedia has distinct entries for
 * Publishing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publishing
 * Writing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing

Methodical project management is merely a set of specialized tools and techniques for projects run for an organization’s internal benefit.

Project Business Management has a different core focus altogether and uses other instruments: It spotlights much higher-level business interests, with knowledge areas such as
 * Business relationship management
 * (International) legal affairs
 * Financial structuring

These play absolutely no part in any of the existing project management frameworks and in Wikipedia’s existing article on project management.

In addition, a specific core aspect of Project Business Management is that it takes place at the contractual interface between two or more independent organizations.

I believe there is good reason to allow the addition of this significant field of business to Wikipedia where it is so far not addressed at all.

Kind regards,

Oliver
 * Thank you for that, please re-submit and I will leave it for another reviewer to take a look. Theroadislong (talk) 16:48, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Request on 13:39:20, 27 July 2021 for assistance on AfC submission by NadnadG
Hi, this is very strange since most of the sources are not passing mentions as well this is a known artisit. This leads me to ask, is he being Israeli is the problem? since I saw many artisit on wikipedia...

NadnadG (talk) 13:39, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It is an outrageous insult to accuse me of anti semitism, please suggest how they pass WP:NARTIST. Theroadislong (talk) 16:51, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Thomas Ellerby Portrait Painter
Thank you for the information regarding including images.

Your comment about collaborative work, of course i understand but the fact that part of what I believed had been accepted has now been omitted is causing me to question what is likely to happen to it. I now want to submit two further extensions (Ellerby as a genre artist and his interpretation of literary subjects) and would appreciate knowing where these might appear with regard to citing (numbering) the references. I would suggest that they would be most suitably placed at the end of my submission from yesterday but perhaps  they might be better placed before then. Please help.

You suggest (I think) that rather than attempt to submit images, i should look more closely at the references that I have given for the missing section (?) and would appreciate more precise guidance as to which ones are not yet acceptaable. Rather than provide, as I have done, the exact details for the death certificates from the GRO. is it preferable to use for example, an Ancestry citation? Lowryedale (talk) 16:07, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * A death certificate is a primary source, Wikipedia requires secondary sources, Ancestry.com is user edited so not a reliable source, the birth and death dates are already reliably sourced in any case. Theroadislong (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

In re: AfC Draft:Wofai Fada
Please consider reaching out the draft creator. I have nothing to do with the draft other than fixing some syntax errors. BOVINEBOY 2008 18:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Tommy Adkins author
OK kool...your opinion as to reliable sources. You know millions of folks disagree with you. There is nothing sad about any of this again your opinion. Thanks for your consideration.2600:1700:2160:4A70:0:0:0:55E (talk) 20:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * It is NOT my "opinion" on reliable sources it is an absolute fundamental necessity for creating any article about a person on Wikipedia, your draft had zero sources of any kind. Theroadislong (talk) 20:15, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the rejection. I now see it as for the best. Sorry to have bothered you..2600:1700:2160:4A70:0:0:0:55E (talk) 20:10, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Tony Seba article
Theroadislong,

Thank you for reviewing my recently-added article on Tony Seba, which you rejected, stating that it "read more like an advertisement" than an encyclopedia article.

Each statement in the article (with rare exception) is supported by a secondary source. The article has literally dozens of references to secondary sources.

The statements regarding predictions that Tony has made in his books necessarily refer to those books as being the published, verifiable source of said predictions. The independent validation of those predictions is supported by secondary sources (again, with a couple of exceptions, as I am still trying to track down some evidence).

I am not sure that I understand your objection. The article makes statements which are supported by secondary sources. If there was evidence of "contrary opinion," I would be happy to include it, but I am unable to find any.

So: what's your beef?

Respectfully,

Jim
 * Your draft Draft:Tony Seba is littered with spam external links and has been nominated for speedy deletion. Theroadislong (talk) 07:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Thomas Ellerby Portrait Painter (new section)
I have now, following your advice, removed the references from my 'missing' section which relate to death certificates and numbered the section accordingly.

I am assuming that if I wish the section entitled Family and Later Life to be re-considered and my new sections to be considered as suitably expressed and referenced that I use the box above (New Section) and place them there and click on publish changes.

I would appreciate taking up your time, yet again and await a reply at your convenience.Lowryedale (talk) 17:08, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You are free to edit Thomas Ellerby and add sections, as long as you add sources for all the content. Theroadislong (talk) 17:13, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Kasra Abbaszadeh
Hello, what was the reason for Kasra Abbaszadeh's article not being approved? He is a very popular composer in Turkey! And we have provided you with all the reliable sources. The sources were in Persian, but we were able to translate with the help of a Persian translator. Cemaran (talk) 19:11, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
 * As I explained in the comment on the draft they fail the criteria at WP:NMUSICIAN. Sources do not have to be in English. Being a popular composer is not sufficient. Theroadislong (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Confirmation of David Edward Reichle article
I just wanted to confirm there were no issues with the Article I just submitted for David Edward Reichle. Will it now be posted? Thank you.
 * Your draft David Edward Reichle was accepted yes, but the article's use of external links doesn't follow Wikipedia's policies or guidelines. You will need to remove the external links, or convert them into footnote references where appropriate. Theroadislong (talk) 19:19, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello!
Hi, Theroadislong. Pleased to meet you. I just want to say, thanks for welcoming me to Wikipedia, and for giving me the table with everything I could use to edit. I have a question though. In the task center, I'm having a bit of trouble completing the tasks. For example, I once tried to expand a stub article, but my edits were reverted. I didn't see anything wrong with my edit.

Do you have any idea how I could avoid my edits being reverted? Thank You.

Sparklestern (talk) 20:58, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Charles W Taylor Jr of Rice University is a Member of the Senior Executive Service of the United States, as documented on June 25, 1990. Where can his certificate be sent for verification?
I have a copy of the certificate. How can I send it to you for verification?
 * What certificate? Articles require reliable independent sources, we have no interest in your "certificate" I'm afraid. Theroadislong (talk) 14:24, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Charles W Taylor Jr of Rice University is a Member of the Senior Executive Service of the United States, as documented on June 25, 1990. Where can his certificate be sent for verification?
I don't know if I'm in the right area. I simply want to add content to the List of Rice University people. I'm a former Presidential appointee of President George H. W. Bush. As a result, I became a member of the Senior Executive Service on June 25, 1990. How do I do that. I
 * As previously explained at the help page, the List of Rice University people is a list of notable people who have attended Rice University, unless Wikipedia has an article about you then you probably don't belong there, it is not an indiscriminate list of everyone who ever attended. Please also sign your posts by adding four tildes ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comments. Theroadislong (talk) 14:55, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft - Laurence Moroney
Thanks so much for the feedback on my article.

Can I ask what is needed to get it to work, and not look like a CV as you mentioned? :)

I was comparing with similar profiles such as: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Nathan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Cameron_(computer_scientist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Fernandez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiffany_Montague

...or countless others. Sorry it reads like a resume, that's not the intent! :(

Deep-learning-fan (talk) 03:30, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Komito_Analytics
I deleted references with the insufficient notability that you mentioned. Thank you, Carolyn Hodges (talk) 01:05, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Tunnelmental
Draft: Tunnelmental[edit source] Many thanks for your feedback regarding the submission of Draft:Tunnelmental. Your comment: fails WP:NBAND, Discogs and bandcamp are not independent sources Theroadislong (talk) 15:43, 26 July 2021 (UTC)

I have now edited the article and removed all references to Discogs and bandcamp, which I agree provided a distraction.

Regarding WP:NBAND, having reviewed the Wikipedia criteria set out in the explanatory pages, the conclusion reached is that this article meets the requirements, as it fulfils not one but three of the stated minimums:

1) Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself. - As confirmed by an earlier Wikipedia reviewer, 2 reliable citations are the BBC and LA Times, though there are a number of others which can be considered RS 2) Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart. Tunnelmental's single 'Shite' entered the Billboard Dance Club Song Chart 22nd August 2015 and 5th September 2015. 6) Is an ensemble that contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles. The musicians 'Jeff Stacey' and 'Craig Van Sant' are independently notable as they also were members of "Velvet Chain", which has it's own Wikipedia page due to the notability from having music broadcast on the TV program 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'

I will therefore now resubmit for further review.

Smartiperson (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2021 (UTC)
 * and accepted, thanks for the improvements. Theroadislong (talk) 17:25, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft- Dhruv Mohite
I have removed all external links leaving reference list. Content writer23 (talk) 22:37, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft- Dhruv Mohite
I have removed all external links as you asked from the article body and if other than this anything else needs to be changed, please tell me. Though I've already sent it for review. Thank you. Content writer23 (talk) 22:41, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Lili (musician)
Hi. Could you please take a second look at your decline of Draft:Lili (musician). The refs seem to be SIGCOV to me? Thanks, Levivich 12:35, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes you could be right I had initially thought that the coverage was due to her being in The Ransom Collective but there does seem to be significant coverage of he alone, feel free to submit and I will leave it to another reviewer. Theroadislong (talk) 12:41, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Could you look at a couple more: Draft:William McCarver seems to have SIGCOV in multiple books, and Draft:Yosigo seems to have SIGCOV in like 10+ refs? A profile in El Pais is kind of a big deal no? Levivich 12:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You are free to move any of them to main space if you think they will survive an WP:AFD. Theroadislong (talk) 13:21, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Are there any other steps involved or is it really as simple as moving it to mainspace and deleting the afc templates? Should I leave a redirect behind? (I don't want to mess up anything technical.) Also I take it you'd rather I did that with any other of your AFC declines rather than bringing them up with you first? Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions. Levivich 13:31, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * To be honest I've never done it, but assume you would just move to main space and remove the afc code afterwards. Theroadislong (talk) 13:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Teahouse chatter on Draft:Jose Guevara
I could go on about how my concern warrants more respect and attention than the commodified nonsense that they were spewing; the fact that if I didn't get shrill enough, they would go on with their merry lives and leave the actual job undone; or more general issues about the problems with Wikipedia priesthood -- but it's just not worthwhile. Suffice to say that a coffee klatsch of noncritical thinkers clumped what I think I have established as a legitimate call not to delete a valuable article into the landslide of AfC requests that aren't worthy of editorial attention, and collectively they've wasted about 10 hours of this veteran editor's time. I'm sick of Wikipedia, and as a result I'm sick of you though I have no idea who you are, because you're just the next step in the process. Will anyone actually attend to what I wrote that's valid, or does my shit simply get deleted from the purity of the confines of your page as a function of your selective sensitivities?

P.S. If a message has what editors feel is uncivil content, they have the option of redacting the offending parts while retaining the valuable content. That's the case in all other democratically and parliamentarily established media in the history of civilization. Except not Wikipedia, where the priesthood adds the punishment of censoring the full content. Go ahead and redact; we can quibble about the details, or forget about it and get to my substance. But if someone's deleted all of what I wrote, that's punitive, it's wrong, it's irrational, and I'd expect someone with a conscience to come to my defense and criticize it. Or is that not part of your job? Zelchenko (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * We are here to build an encyclopedia, so that is why I devoted some time today to expanding and improving Jose Guevara instead of spending my time arguing. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  01:45, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what a "coffee klatsch of noncritical thinkers" is, your draft consisted of two poorly sourced sentences, when it was declined, Cullen has spent much time expanding and improving it, whilst you have argued about some perceived injustice. I have no interest in arguing either, we are here to build an encyclopdia. Theroadislong (talk) 07:26, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Congratulations, Jim. But can we cut the sanctimony about the time invested? I've done research for real publications, including encyclopedias: I know how much work there is, I know how results vary from day to day, I know about the sunk time investments, and I also know about the office politics. You've got a staff of helpers here who are trying hard, but now and then they make some rather bureaucratic and sanctimonious editorial judgments. Let them learn how to build an encyclopedia, because now and then their lack of critical thinking is what tears Wikipedia down. There are problems with how AfC works. The measurement of notability is flawed, and Jose Guevara got put in the wrong pile, as a quick look at the substance of my three references would have demonstrated. Zelchenko (talk) 17:26, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , in regards to your knowledge and experience, things are done diffferently on Wikipedia. When you create Zelchenko stubs like this one, with the edit comment "Need to make a stub entry, I don't have time to do this whole thing right now. Basic information is in the two articles.", you should expect to encounter problems along the way. Finally, how many days are you going to continue whining about the problems you encountered here? All the editors who have tried to help you are good faith and highly experienced volunteers. Your continued whinging is counter to the project's goals. The problem was fixed. Just say thanks, avoid insulting the volunteers and move on to some encyclopedic editing.  --- Possibly &#9742; 17:40, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
 * , you came to the Teahouse with a combative attitude, claiming to be a very experienced editor. Yes, you have been around since 2007, but in all those years, you have made 868 edits and created just two articles, the 2013 stub Griffith Ogden Ellis being the other. I have made 75,161 edits, created 104 new articles, and significantly expanded hundreds of other articles. I am 87 times more experienced than you based on edit count. Your busiest month by far in your 14 years as an editor is this month, and you have spent a considerable amount of time in the past few days arguing with far more experienced editors about that crappy two sentence stub that you wrote and that I transformed into an actual encyclopedia article. This is a collaborative project. Stop bossing people around and stop arguing with actually productive editors. It is unseemly. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  00:09, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
 * And here we come to the crux of it. You major in Wikipedia; I merely contribute. Since I'm not gunning for merit badges, I am less than you in your eyes and in the eyes of the other regulars; hence a bit of a gang attitude from the WP:TH priesthood these past few days. I did go to KylieTastic and had 2 or 3 days of wasted time with her and others. I have contributed to tens of thousands of social activities in my life. Though I've made 868 contributions to Wikipedia, it is one of my smallest commitments, so you might imagine how busy I've been this past half century. With four other people, I co-founded the group that's filed suit against the Obama Presidential Center in Jackson Park. With five others, I co-founded AIGA's Design for Democracy. I've probably co-founded 300 or 400 such campaigns and projects, many of which are still running today; and I've contributed a day or a few hours to thousands of other ones. I don't care if I'm not notable because my reach is diffuse and broad, because I'm not on this Earth for a Wikipedia article or a seat next to the pulpit or any merit badges. (Oh yes, I've also created or sustained 10 or 20 Scout units, masonic lodges, and other groups that enjoy merit badges and other bling.) On Wikipedia, there are large-scale deacons like you who work their asses off for a few years and get lots of merit badges, and then ones like me who bake cookies for the bake sale or drop a coin or two in the box every week and get nothing but the knowledge that they helped the world a little bit. The ones like me are anonymous, perhaps leaning toward altruistic, and the other -- well, truly you have your reward, don't you? You had to go there and make the comparison, Mr. Quayle. But thanks for doing what you do. I do get it.
 * The flaw that I highlighted these past two weeks is exactly this problem. You regulars have the myopic view that an occasional contributor can make the same time and energy commitment to Wikipedia as you. Goodness knows that without you, Wikipedia would be shit. But I am involved in hundreds of offline and online activities every year. I don't have time to nursemaid any articles; I can only fix typos as I spot them, correct inaccuracies, and occasionally add a tidbit. That's what most of us millions of contributors do. Once or twice a week on average for 15 years is a pretty good record. Without that, again Wikipedia would be shit. Yet it's the big deacons who get to write the policies, and the one that says any contributor is individually responsible to nursemaid a one-paragraph article into a monument -- lest it be deleted and the small contribution vanish -- is a rule that was made to cater to people like you, not to people like me. I'd vote for ways to be able to hand off the responsibility -- except as a mere occasional contributor, I have no way to influence policy here. It's a two-class system, and the rules were made to benefit the thousands like you, not the millions like me. I even had to "pull rank" and show that you were junior to me in tenure, just to get any of you to listen to me. Haranguing all of you is likely the only thing that got you to do some work on the thing. Thanks for that, but the problem (as I've pointed out) is that when an editor with limited commitment posts something to Wikipedia, it should not go 100% on his/her shoulders and yet it should also not vanish. I am grateful that Jose Guevara, may he now rest in peace, helped me make that point. But he, and all of you, have pretty much guaranteed that I will never, ever venture to contribute another article. Don't complain that you don't get enough help if you can't even consider needs of people like me and craft policies that make it a little easier for us to be involved. Zelchenko (talk) 14:30, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * I get it, . You will give us hundreds of sentences of complaining and arguing, but only two sentences about Jose Guevara. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  15:09, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
 * You know, you've repeated that fiction each time you've responded, and each time I've explained why it's a bankrupt idea. I had already invested several hours searching for background on Joe Guevara and had only found those three or four links (in fact, I'd done a similar search a few years ago). I didn't see much payoff in furthering the search at the time, because I am generally fairly thorough. What I needed to aim for was to protect the nascent article from deletion. And so I invested time into that. If I had not been rebuffed rather gruffly by the reviewers, and next in Teahouse, then I wouldn't have become loud about it; yet if I hadn't raised a stink you and the rest of the established gentry on Wikipedia would have ignored me.
 * Here's an analogy from real life: Along with six others, I co-founded Protect Our Parks, which most recently is in Supreme Court against the Obama Foundation contesting their bid to take over federally protected public park land on Chicago's lakefront. POP has raised more than a million dollars specifically to raise federal lawsuits to protect lakefront parkland fromm privatization efforts. By your style of logic, POP should spend the money developing a new park somewhere else, not whine about the present situation. And in the process I also raised some a few additional points that Wikipedians will of course forget, such as the projection that makes you assume that we're all like you, that we have hours and hours to focus on a single article, than the quiet little houskeeping we have been doing for 15 years. For a "housekeeping" type of Wikipedian, as I am, this is not a possibility and so it seems the policy of forcing an originator to carry an article is not good for all types of contributors, only for people like you.
 * Finally, your name carries a big of weight in this corner of the Internet. I don't devalue your work; what the hell cause do you have to belittle my name and my opinion? It's just as valid as yours, and it may in fact have depth that in your myopic haze you couldn't begin to understand. But then Wikipedia culture has a good bit of that kind of sociology about it: the people who swim in its waters every day operate from the conceit that they have greater wisdom about how the world should work and therefore more authority, and so, clad in their holier-than-thou vestments, they spend a lot of their time quite subtly (and not so subtly) belittling and diminishing the mass of other contributions. That's improper, and this is the last time I'm going to repeat this to you. Good day. Zelchenko (talk) 13:04, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Please stop posting your unpleasant, abusive rants on my talk page they are not welcome. Theroadislong (talk) 16:44, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * and on that nearly ideal case in point about selective civility, the prosecution rests. Zelchenko (talk) 18:22, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Kudos
Kudos for singlehandedly (well, you probably used both hands) reducing the AfC backlog by 25%. I will have to stop leaving notes at Teahouse that it may take months for a review. David notMD (talk) 02:48, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ha haa, warning that it might take 24 hours for a review doesn't seem so bad does it! It was a great team effort. Theroadislong (talk) 07:03, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

John Mariani draft - notability
Hello Theroadislong. Thanks for reviewing this draft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:John_Mariani It has been reviewed by a few others and the notability issue has not arisen. I believe that Mariani is suitable for the following reasons: A quick look at the other US food writers with Wikipedia pages shows there are plenty who have written and done a lot less but who have their own pages (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Aaron, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Abel just to take two examples from the top of the list). When you search for Mariani within Wikipedia, he is referenced consistently on other pages. Most notably definitions of food types such as the Sub Sandwich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine_sandwich, The Bloody Mary Cocktail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Mary_(cocktail), pasta and Italian cuisine and various culinary stars such as Jean-Georges Vongerichten and numerous restaurants. The nature of his work as a writer and journalist means that he has written more than being written about. I notice that this is true of other journalists who have pages but fewer external references than are included for Mariani. I would be grateful if you could consider my points and let me know your thoughts and what else I can do convince you of his notability! Thank you --Factelf4 (talk) 10:15, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * other poor quality articles exist is never a good argument, Wikipedia requires there to be in-depth coverage of him to show notability. Theroadislong (talk) 10:40, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Theroadislong - I have included plenty of references with coverage of him. He has been written about, written books, received awards. I believe this meets the criteria given the page on notability says "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". It also says "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times. The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field". Mariani meets all of these criteria. I would be grateful if you could let me know what else is required. Factelf4 (talk) 07:05, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Draft: Lucky Omosigho
Hi Theroadislong, i have edited Lucky Omosigho's draft, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Lucky_Omosigo, kindly review it because i couldn't submit the draft. Thanks NOTICE501 (talk) 21:34, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Your draft was rejected, there is no submit button, it won't be considered further. Theroadislong (talk) 21:02, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Theroadislong, hope you are doing good. Please see talk page. It appears has UPE. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 07:19, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

About Derveshpur
He's been coming onto wikipedia-en-help, ad nauseam, trying to push a over-detailed and promotional iteration of Derveshpur. Us helpers believe he's associated with the town or its leadership, and we recently learnt he's been making a literal legion of sockpuppets to push this (albeit primarily due to ignorance of how Wikipedia works and what seems to be a language barrier). At this point we're telling him to leave the channel whenever he comes in, but it's pretty clear he's both aggravatingly persistent and completely unable to heed what others tell him. —A little blue Bori v^_^v  Jéské Couriano 07:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I reported them and they have been blocked, I guess they will reappear shortly in another guise. Theroadislong (talk) 07:40, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The main account remains unblocked. —A little blue Bori  v^_^v  Jéské Couriano 07:57, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * is good and blocked along with many socks, months ago, but not . I'll just block them, as they're obviously yet another sock. Bishonen &#124; tålk 08:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC).

Nebaiot Lemma proposed article
Hey there! I'm new to this side of Wikipedia, and I was hoping for some pointers to get my article about Nebaiot Lemma published. I felt that the sources I included were sufficient - is there anything that I am missing to make this article eligible for further review and publishing? Here are the links I have used: https://statehornet.com/2019/11/sac-state-youtuber-hits-it-big-with-viral-videos-through-tiktok/ https://gooddaysacramento.cbslocal.com/video/4211656-tik-tok-star-from-sac-state/ There are some other articles written about him, but these are the two that I found pertinent. However, googling "Nebaiot Lemma" lends credence to the fact that he is a notable internet personality.

Cheers, Brock :)
 * The first one is an interview which doesn't contribute to any notability, we need multiple articles that discuss him in-depth. Theroadislong (talk) 09:22, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Laurence Myers
Thanks for your message. I am still pretty new to the technical workings of Wikipedia. I would appreciate it if I could get some instruction on how to have sources put in the article the correct way. Thanks for any help. Vedlagt (talk) 15:55, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Laurence Myers
Thanks so much for that edit! I can see that it looks so much better but I don't know how to do it. That is, I don't know the technicalities of it! Vedlagt (talk) 16:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Don't stress too much, I'll do some more shortly. Theroadislong (talk) 16:25, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Nomination of Louis-Pierre Comeau for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Louis-Pierre Comeau is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Louis-Pierre Comeau until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 11:34, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I have limited internet on my phone whilst holidaying in Wales, and I can see no reason given for deletion? Theroadislong (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC) Theroadislong (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Request on 08:41:47, 9 August 2021 for assistance on AfC submission by Bsmth
Hi Theroadislong,

I've updated my user page with the template as you suggested. I think the edits I've made to the language in the draft and the addition of the template on my Talk page should comply with the Terms of Use and disclose affiliation with the topic. Thanks for your help far; please let me know if there is anything else outstanding I can complete before I resubmit the draft.

Bsmth (talk) 08:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

regarding the review
please mention in which citation link of this article causes the copy right issue?
 * Draft:Debashis Chatterjee is mostly copied and pasted from https://www.indiaeducationforum.org/debashis-chatterjee.html Theroadislong (talk) 06:46, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

In reply to your message you left me about my page.
To be clear, you are saying I am not allowed to write about myself because it's biased. However, if another user created a article about me then it is fine?
 * No but creating an autobiography is strongly discouraged your Draft:Hiram A. Murray is very poorly sourced, for instance the “Early life and education” section has zero sources, EVERY substantive fact requires an independent published source. Theroadislong (talk) 16:36, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Tommy Adkins author
You guys are so silly all you have to do is google my name. I'm thinking Wikipedia is the one not creditable. 2600:1700:2160:4A70:0:0:0:55E (talk) 23:27, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Laurence Myers edits
Hi and thank you for a few edits to clean up the article. There is one edit that I would like to undo because my article, Laurence Myers, was reverting to the athlete  Laurence Eugene Lon'' Myers. Robert McClenon added information at the top of the article so it wouldn't revert to Lon Myers.

I would like to keep your edits but is it possible for you to put that information back at the top?

Thanks!Vedlagt (talk) 07:59, 11 August 2021 (UTC) ✅Theroadislong (talk) 08:09, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey, this is my own band page and I personally stand by the information I am providing, please approve this.
Hello, Thanks for the response back, I understand it is a Wikipedia page about my band which doesn't have any proper information regarding the band and the music. I have been trying to add information from my end and please i request you to not revert it.
 * See WP:COI and WP:EDITREQUEST, you are welcome to make suggestions and give sources that support them at Talk:When Chai Met Toast. Theroadislong (talk) 18:09, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Docquity Help
Hi, My page has been denied publication. The reason being it looks like an ad. I took help from the live chat and have removed all PR links as well as the funding we have got. Can you help me with what else would you like me to add/remove for approval?
 * It is just an advert for your business which is why it was declined. You will also need to make the required disclosure on your user page as per the instructions on your talk page. Theroadislong (talk) 11:22, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Positive Learning Ltd PAGE
Hi there,

I am sorry but i am trying to write the basic information about this company. There is no ads here. Could you please point out which parts are problem and should be changed?

Thanks
 * An admin has already deleted your draft as blatant advertising, we have no interest in " basic information about this company" Wikipedia is not a place to merely tell about something or promote a business. Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about a topic, showing how it meets the special Wikipedia definition of notability. Please also review conflict of interest. Theroadislong (talk) 11:57, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

editing Kubovy wiki
Is linked-in an adequate citation to a person claimed to be someone's grnadchild? Or do I need a link that shows that relation to the child's parent, already in the wiki page? `:Linkin.com is never a suitable source for anything as it is user edited, Wikipedia requires WP:RS"reliable sources and I would question why you feel the need to add grandchildren at all. Theroadislong (talk) 11:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

remove comment
Hi Dear, I removed all <>, do not need to remove the comment you left to warn them?

thanks for your help Buttler32 (talk) 16:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

EEU Wikipedia article clarification
Dear editor!

This is representative of the EEU, getting in touch with regards to our mutual work and communication through uploading Wikipedia article of the EEU.

The point of our collaboration was submitting text, fully compatible and harmonized to Wikipedia standards and requirements. Though we have submitted and edited Georgian as well as English articles considering your respectful comments and the clear instances of other, already accepted University articles, our work still got rejected.

Could you please once again review your decision and in case our article is still in need of further updates, indicate the concrete paragraphs not meeting your requirements.

looking forward to your reply!

Best,

Team EEU
 * Re:User:Nino Dzamukashvili/sandbox Wikipedia is not for merely providing information. A Wikipedia article about an organisation must summarise what independent reliable sources with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about them, showing how it meets Wikipedia's special definition of a notable topic. Wikipedia has no interest in what you want to say about it only in what others unaffiliated with the university choose to say about it. Please also note that user accounts are for single person use only. Theroadislong (talk) 16:52, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

PirouVR
Hi Theroadislong,

How are you?

I have been trying to publish my first article for months now.

I have just read your notes, please can you let me know what I need to do to get this page approved?

Kind regards

EddieEdwardfrench20 (talk) 20:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
 * A Wikipedia article about a company must summarise what independent reliable sources with significant coverage have chosen on their own to say about them, showing how it meets Wikipedia's special definition of a notable company. Theroadislong (talk) 20:16, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Draft: VR FleetCare
Hi!

I edited the page, so there isn't chapters without sources anymore. Thanks! --TaruHeinonen (talk) 07:56, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Malicious Editing Dispute Resolved
Hello... below is my reply on @possibly talk page... sorry, I don't use Wikipedia as much as has been implied, so I'm posting/replying the best I know how.

''Nope. Not upset at all. In fact, I'm content to have been proven right in my assertion. '''You said you were a "woke anti-racist" when you "reported" me to the administrator (too late for an edit... got the screenshot). That is a quasi-political statement. "Woke" is an insult/label akin to "liberal" or "leftist" here in America that is used to "attack" another person's political views.''' It has a very specific connotation, which is why you labeled yourself that. I am neither "woke" nor "asleep". And nowhere above did I accuse you of racism. I accused you (and the user that "reported" me to you) of political bias. You admitted to it. That's called "talking things out", so I'm done. Have a good day and thank your for your time.'' — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macklevine (talk • contribs) 10:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Question regarding sourcing
Hi Theroadislong,

Just a few questions for properly sourcing things as I noticed a few things were trimmed out in the Steve Ravic article.

First thing is are we able to actually source things from an individuals website that may contain information? I'll use My Way as a hypothetical example as it seems to be his latest project: Now for something like this, would posts about it on Steve Ravic's Majestic Film site http://majesticfilm.com/my-way/ or the Charles Billich's own page https://www.billich.com/blogs/news-events/charles-billich-my-way-film qualify qualify as a source? If not then does this interview from SBS count as an acceptable source even if it is in Croatian? https://www.sbs.com.au/language/croatian/audio/charles-billich-i-steve-ravic-najavljuju-novi-igrani-film-my-way-u-kojemu-mogu-sudjelovati-i-clanovi-hrvatske-zajednice

If none of the above meet standards, then in this case would we have to wait until another source appears talking about it such as a movie news website?

In regards to removing mentions of Metal Warriors and Majestic Film, I assume it's part of what you said was promotional. Would a line such as the following read better as purely informational: "In the early 90's Steve Ravic began his business Samson Video Productions, which would not too long after become Metal Warriors (A record label and tour promotion agency) and in 2007 also created Majestic Film (A film production company)." Would something like the about us section on the company's page be enough for that line in the article or would it need to come from a source like a news article or interview with a publication?

There was another claim made about being a leader in the migrant Croatian community in his early life section, now referring again to the SBS interview I posted up above which I translated via Google Translate, which I know isn't the best, but it reads as follows: " At the Astor Theater in St. Kilda in Melbourne, on Wednesday, March 31, the premiere of the documentary Billich - Beyond the Canvas about the life and work of the famous artist from the Australian Croatian community Charles Billich was held, directed by prominent community member, director and producer Steve Ravic. Billich talks about impressions from the Melbourne premiere, while Ravic invites people from the community to participate in the feature film “My Way”.

Now to also better substantiate the claim, would one be able to collect physical newspaper articles and or headlines and have them uploaded online to an image sharing site such as imgur? In my research I found a fair few newspaper articles from the Hrvatski Vjesnik, a Croatian publication which uploads their covers to their public Facebook page which has Steve on them, it wouldn't take too long to get any relevant ones and upload them if that helps.

I also ask this question about newspapers in preparation for my next article about George Julio, who at the time of his retirement was the oldest active wrestler in Australia and who is still active in training new wrestlers and working with local Australian promotions. Now he has quite a few web articles posted about him online from major news outlets in Australia, mostly in regards to his retirement. But I do have a few friends (The ones who told me told me that I should write about George) who follow the Australian scene, they're hardcore fans who have offered and offered to source news articles or even magazines if needed since there may be a few things missed on an article about him that are subject to being in old print media. But if print media isn't allowed like this then it would be good to know before I ask anything of them.

Thank you for reading the lengthy message and taking the time to help me better an article, much appreciated. MetalDarren (talk) 14:04, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * http://majesticfilm.com/my-way/ is a primary source so no good and https://www.billich.com/blogs/news-events/charles-billich-my-way-film is s blog so not reliable, interviews are also not reliable. Print media is fine. Theroadislong (talk) 14:35, 21 August 2021 (UTC)