User talk:Thesicilianist

Welcome!
  Welcome to Wikipedia! •    •     •     •     •   Welcome to this wonderful encyclopedia, Thesicilianist! I've been an editor for a while, and I just thought I'd say hi. This is a really great project, and I hope you'll stay! To get you started off on the right foot, I have a few small suggestions of places to check out:

•    •     •     •     •    If you need any help at all with anything, don't be afraid to ask me. You can either type "" right onto your talkpage and then ask your question, or you can ask me on my talkpage. •    •     •     •     •    '''Good luck with your editing! Yours truly,  A r k y '''¡Hablar! 23:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The Five Pillars of Wikipedia, our most basic guidelines on how to edit and interact with other editors
 * The Manual of Style, some quick pointers on the basic quality standards Wikipedia Articles have
 * How to edit an article, a great starting read
 * Wikilove, the easiest (and most fun) way to make friends on the 'pedia
 * The Sandbox, a place to try editing without actually editing an article
 * Finally, my favorite, the Ignore All Rules policy (but ignore them within reason, of course)
 * Oh yes, and remember to sign your posts on talk pages using four tildes ( ~ )!

Querry
Hi. Any relation between this account and User:Scipio3000? El_C 03:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, not really. --Thesicilianist 03:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * OK I get it. So I am not the only person who noticed something not quite right about the edits. Please keep in mind that I didn't delete any of his additions I just fixed the dates and added the 660-668 entry when sicily was the residence of the Byzantine Emperor. and Syracuse was almost proposed the capital of the Empire. I consider Sicily a unique distinguished part of Italy--Thesicilianist 03:41, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, what do you mean by "not really" ? El_C 03:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

sorry for coming off like that! --Thesicilianist 04:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't know who you were or how this messaging works! I am new to wikipedia. I just saw your edits, thanks!

On the Sicily Article
In conclusion, I feel that we need to stay with the facts in an easy to read, concise, chronological, factual manner.  The previous article is sloppy, confusing work that does not get to the main facts and important dates and then tries to connect a major transistion with a sloppy sentence. My page had relevant, factual details, so we should provide people with the most detailed, concise, factual, relevant material on our culture. Just curious as to what consensus we can come up with together. It is important we give readers a non-biased, factual Overview of Sicily. I Look forward to your input --Scipio3000 03:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

In Reply
''I come in peace. You and I are trying to achieve the same ends, I am sure if we work together, we will be able to create the best possible page on Sicily. If we need to we will go to experts. I am also 75% Sicilian btw, like my grams used to say, "Sicily first, Italy second." BTW, did you even read my article I fixed on the Arabs? I feel I improved the article, let me know what you think of it. All I want to accomplish is to give the general audience the most comprehensive article on Sicily. I want it to be in an easy to read manner that flows well and has the same format throughout the page. I also would like to add Demographics, Sports, Cuisine, Tourism and add a few more pictures. I hope we will be able to work past our differences and be able to collabarote and represent Sicily with pride, thanks for reading.(Scipio3000 06:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC))''

Why the Normans deserve there own section
'''1)It forever sealed the fate of Sicily as a western Christian civilization. Which at the time could have went either way.  This period and time forever changed the future of Sicily's culture and place in history.

2)The Normans made several large & distinct contributions to art, poetry, architecture, law, governance, customs, etc.

3)This was the epoch era in Sicilian history as the Sicilian empire spread from S.Italy to Malta and Libya and areas in Greece and moder day Albania. It had the second largest populated Christain city outside of Constantinople.

4)They treated Arabs as inferior with higher taxes, persecution and displaced them from their lands and farms and eventually expelled every single Arab from Sicily.

5)If anything this should be grouped Norman/Hohenstaufen period.''' As these two are far closer related, considering marriage arrangements would seal Sicily's fate With the Habsburgs for centuries.


 * If you have no objections I would like to change this, I am also going to put up on the discussion page why Norman period should have its own seperate heading. And let people with knowledge and experts decide this matter.(Scipio3000 21:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC))


 * The Normans have their section its called the Arab Norman period, because thats what it was. The Normans were 5,000Knights who lived among a majority of Sicilian Arabs, Greeks, Berbers, Jews, Slavs and Africans. When the Normans arrived they converted the Sicilians to Christianity. Only a small minority of Muslim Sicilians who refused to convert were exiled to Lucera and an even smaller group escaped persecution to Libya.
 * Although History is written by the Victor. Arabic and Hebrew remianed the lingue Franca of Sicily during the Norman rule. Today the culture and appearance of Sicilian is closer to that of the Greeks (in East Sicily) and Semitic Arabs and Jews (in West Sicily) As a result of the two biggest migration movements into Sicily.
 * Finally, you already made your anti-Sicilianist feeling crystal clear by:
 * Deleting the Jews, Africans and Berbers from every mention in the article.
 * Your enthusastic editing of Other White-History racist (Sicily WHITNESS) related articles.
 * Your username itself is related to a Roman who imposed Roman rule upon Sicilians by brutal fashion.
 * Among your edits a clear Antisemitic vibe. And relentless attempts to link Sicily to the Germans and Northmen.
 * Italianists always treated us as inferiors! What does that mean to you? oh but wait you are a White-Syrian as you claimed yourself, who is trying to reshape our worldwide known Sicilian history.
 * Today Sicilians from Syracuse or Palermo can easily be mistaken by a Greek, Lebanese or Israeli more than a North Italian. Yet you insist on insulting many Sicilians who still resemble their Semitic ancestors. (common practice by Italianist who memorize a list of insults for Sicilians especially from Palermo) and you replicated that racism by implying that they were inferior in this talk page! Although the Non-Norman Scilian majority eventually wrested power and absorbed the Norman minority into the bigger Sicilian sphere.
 * The article about Sicily is related to Sicily first, despite how Italianists feel about it, once you accept that the article will make more sense to you, and you will not stand out as a racist Vandal.
 * Read about Sicily, this our own Website and its considered teh Voice of Sicily --Thesicilianist 07:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

We will let the experts decide
It is not up to you to decide alone. We will have experts look at this situation! Again you have not brought any referenced material and again with your insults!! I am 75% Sicilian and I don't need to prove myself to you..I don't appreciate your hostile accusations on me and I am going to reptort you. BTW you have 2 Arab-Norman periods up.(Scipio3000 08:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

BTW who are you to talk to me like this?? ALso why haven't you brought any facts to the table?? Put your facts where your mouth is. Only that and experts will decide this, so settle down with those INSULTS! I reported you too(Scipio3000 08:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

TOO MUCH CLUTTER
there is too many pics in that section it looks sloppy, YOU have to take out one of those pics and put it elsewhere!! ANd what is your problem with me? and quit talking to me in that way!!(Scipio3000)


 * Well once you stop your racism towards Sicilians, maybe I will feel better about you. You wee bragging about how the Greeks and Arabs were peasents!? Those are the ancestors of the majority of Italians today. The photos are important, Idris is the greatest scientist out of Sicily, and the Tomb is a very beautiful photo that shows the Multiculturalism of Sicily. I you want t remove the map you can do that. Aslong as Idrisi 1154, tomb 1148 remain in the rigt section, because they were part of the Arab Norman period --Thesicilianist 08:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I extended my hand out to you and you call me a racist...who do you think you are??? I have reported you for accusing me of racism I am 75% Sicilian so what are you thinking?? And how wass I bragging about that I was only make a point as to why the Norman period should be so seperate, because how the Arabs were treated! I am sick of this nonsense! I am also going to take this now for dispute resolution over the Norman period!(Scipio3000 09:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

QUIT WITH THE CLUTTER! You say I hate Sicilians so bad but you are ruining the page with all your clutter!(Scipio3000 09:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Well why you keep insisting on deleting the Noble Norman women's tomb? because it was in Hebrew? it belongs in the Arab Norman period. thats why its called the Rab Norman period. --Thesicilianist 09:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Quit with the slander...What about the cartographer map, what do we do with it? please tell mhere I have said anything bad about hebrews?? QUIT!(Scipio3000 09:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

I did a nice job with pics
I added some good pics, why must you add that tacky map, then you have that huge pic of a tomb, with two other pics? What point are you trying to prove? ANd why do you hate The Normans so much? That is a great part of Sicilian history...what offends you about them???(Scipio3000 09:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Please bring some factual material with references, before you continue to insult me, I have brought them to you, why don't you do the same?(Scipio3000 09:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

( Storia Dei Musulmani di Scilia ) by Michele Amari. I hope you know who Amari is!--Thesicilianist 09:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

So I suppose that is another cheap shot...since i hate all foreigners, please tell me where I said this before you keep accussing me of racism, this is getting old! I going to bring a mediatator, I was hoping we could work on this like civil people, but I see this is impossible with you...You don't know me! Who do you think you are to act so morally superior to me?? I bet if I dug deep enough in your closet, we would find you had your share of sins! So don't throw stones in glass houses, unless you say your a saint!(Scipio3000 09:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Change whatever you want with the pics...If you want to ruin the page with your sloppy clutter go ahead, you say you love Sicily so much, yet to prove a point you will clutter the page up, why? But ruin it if you want, I am tired of this site and you...I love Sicily more than you could ever know and that is the only reason I am still working on this after everyones abuse! Buut to take it from a fellow Sicilian is too much, this is insane, we should ve working together.

BTW I will argue as much with a German as any other race...I don't care who you are, don't tell me who I am unless you know our history...That is why I got blocked my first time for fighting with A German and I have had several heated arguments with Germans over the changing of the Barbarian Invasion into the Migration period, as to say it was peaceful when that is a lie...You want to call me ethnocentric, fine, but I am no racist, I don't care if your Swedish, Russian, Jamaican or Australian, I truly don't just don't insult my culture(Scipio3000 09:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Can we please try to come to an agreement?
I think we can work together I do...Yes I am proud of my Arabic and semitic influence, I look very, very Sicilian, so you are mistaking me...BUT I also love the Norman period with the knights in armour and the overseas empire and the Dynastic marriages and the Pope, etc...why can't I? And why shouldn't we give them there own chapter? This is my biggest grievance over the Norman period. Also, how come if I put in about French, Scandanavians and Italians settling the island after expulsion of Arabs, why is that racist? It is the truth...you can't see it because your blinded, but that is reverse discrimination. BTW thanks for that link to "Best of Sicily"! Sicily first, Italy second!(Scipio3000 09:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

So are you considering allowing me to name the period the Norman/Hohenstaufen period, as the two are very closely related. I also want to thank you again you really have made me feel better. Just knowing that you have gone through what I have and you obviously understand my situations of being so exotic looking in the world of Mr. & Mrs. John Smith, take care(Scipio3000 16:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Also should we call the Aragon period, the Angevin/Aragon? Just curious on your opinion(Scipio3000 16:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Sports & Demos
Can I add the Serie A teams of Sicily and create a sports section as they are passionate about this?

Also do you have any demos on Sicily?(Scipio3000 17:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

BEST OF SICILY
Hey I was just reading through that, thanks again and they say on their history section that:It was the Greeks whose mythology and folklore would assert the greatest influence on Sicily, and Sicily's museums are filled with religious artifacts and statues reflecting the important culture whose language, philosophy and law would form the very foundations of Western civilization...And that is what I was saying...

Also they use the term Saracen, why do you still not want to use that? They say, "By the ninth century, Moors (Arabs) from North Africa were raiding Sicily. In 827, they attacked in force at the western end of the island and another conquest had begun. By 903, all of Sicily was in Saracen hands, controlled principally by three emirs, and Islam was the official religion. The Saracens were an Arab people, originally nomadic, related to the the Moors. They tolerated Christianity and Judaism in Sicily, without encouraging either. In Sicily, the Saracens were rulers rather than colonizers, masters rather than governors. Because Islamic law could be harsh to non-believers, many Sicilian Orthodox converted, though precise numbers are not known. However, it must be said Arabic society and culture were advanced; under the Saracens the city of Panormus became Palermo and its splendor was said to rival that of Baghdad. For the first time in Sicily's history, the lemon and the orange were cultivated, complex irrigation systems were developed, and sophisticated mathematics introduced."(Scipio3000 17:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Proposal
Below is my proposal for a minor redesign of the "Sicily" page....I have no problems with the format of the, "History of Sicily" page. For this main page though, I want to provide interested parties in our culture with a informational introduction and leave them with a good foundation of the basics of Sicily. If they find interest in the History then there is a link for that or maybe they are interested in cuisine, tourism, etc...

I don't feel we are serving any purpose with that incredibly long page which has 28 sections. And in there we still neglect to mention, Vandals, Lombards, The Hohenstaufens, Angevins, Bourbons and that is just on history, there are no sections for Sports, Demographics, Music, etc...I know you are proud of the Arab tradition but it is copied verbatim from the "History of Sicily" page. I would like to summarize this like every other section has and if this interest someone then there are easy to follow links. But as it is now there is too much clutter and it is too unorganized for a general page, which is meant only as an introduction and a guidemap or table of contents for more detailed information through the links provided....

My proposal:

1)Natives

2)Ancient Sicily

3)Germanic Invasions and Byzantine control

4)Arab Sicily or Muslim Sicily---you decide

5)Norman/Hohenstaufen

6)Angevin/Aragon

7)Spanish/Bourbon

8)Italian Unification

Look how I tightened this up without going into too much detail and then we provide short summaries of each period. I hope you see the Logic of this, because this is not the History page it is the General Sicily page and needs to be kept general and to the point. Let me know your thoughts.(Scipio3000 20:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Added
I added a Cuisine section with Wine and Olive Oil a Sports section and this quote,

"Without Sicily, Italy leaves no image in the soul. Sicily is the key to everything."

--Johann Wolfgang Goethe

I hope you like what I have done so far. I don't know anything about Sicilian Music or I would add it..,do you have knowledge in that? Also someone told me to use Italy's demo's for Sicily, but I disagreed..what do you think? Do you have any demos on Sicily?(Scipio3000 21:55, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

OK Scipio I agree, you focus on the Sicily page (you can edit it like you proposed). And we have to history of Sicily page (that page has to be detailed and expanded, because the Byzantines should not be with the Goths. The Arabs of 652 are not the Arabs of the Kalbid or Norman period, you can have the Arab Norman period, followed with the Norman influence (the positive Norman influence, MultiCulturalism, balancing relations with the North maintaining the Sicilian independence that was started by the Kalbids (we never had a storng independent nation after the defeat of the Normans, we became a tail!), also the Normans should be credited for their rather swift conversion of Arabs and Greeks into the Western church. The Crusades failed to do what the Normasn did in Sicily. today the Greeks and Arabs who were attacked by the Crusades are still Muslm and Eastern Rite. opposed to Sicily that became Western rite with no bloodshed! The Midwest is full of bigots! I mean they hate you because they wish they were you. Would you rather choose having no history past the 1700s or being a Sicilian that was civilized while the German tribes where still Barbarians chasing the Celts around the forrests. I fell under alot of pressure to renounce my identity especially by Lombard bigots who kept calling me names (some even call Sicilians niggers!, although Sicily had as much Negros as Italy or Britain did!, but that will not make me erase AFricans from our history. The Romans brought in African slaves, its very minor though. However, you can't make the few dark Sicilians feel bad about themselves just to make a racist Lombard feel better about themselves _just like the racist stereotype of "Carbon" in Good Fellas). Today the hate speech in Europe talks DNA and looks at people by DNA and genics because they lack a strong culture to identify with. Us Sicilians should not tie our destiny to people who look down to us anyways! --Thesicilianist 23:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Saracen Arabs is a term that was widely used, but shouldn't be used as a title. We still have the Saracens door or Arab Gate in Kalsa _you can mention that or find a proper place to use it_(the Arab district in Palermo). Most Sicilianists from Palermo will remind you of the deep Arab history and bloodlines of the city. In Syracuse things look more Greek less Arab. Ofcourse we don't look like Bedouins anymore(not that its wrong to look Bedouin), we mixed with Nordic people now we look better than both Arabs and Europeans = ).
 * Regarding the Arab settlement in Sicily, actually most the Arab settlers were traders and agriculturists, by the time of the Normans, They Arabs were already sedantry and only few were warriors. The Arabs are known to marry 1-4 wives and the population of Sicily (towns sizes doubled in the 2 centuries following the Arab invasion of the 9th century. Drive West Sicily and see the towns and faces of the inlanders). The Phoenicians were pretty much concentrated in Palermo. However, the Romans massacred most of the Punics after the Punc wars.

Hey, thanks for the go ahead, I will send you it before I make it final and I was going to call it Arab Sicily if you have no objections? I won't call them Saracens. And I am not going to mess with the Norman section too much, and the only reason I had those negative examples upw was to show that there was not equality amongst them. Also I agree we need to seperate the Germanics and Byzantine and I will do that.

And about Germanic people, that is what I tell them if It was for the Greeks and Italians, you people still wouldn't be able to read....most still can't. Honestly I have far more problems with WASPs then any minorities. I also agree about the black comments. They have no clue what they are talking about and ironically America has a far, far larger Black African population then Italy's combined history. They say about Hannibal but he was a phoenician and his army was spaniards and celts, and later Italians! But that is irrelevant...It is there ignorance that irritates me.

We are still living with stereotypes from 130 years ago, when there was no ethical restraint on racism. The propaganda against Sicilians especially was horrible, did you know that Sicilians hold the record for most people lynched at one time...My nunny use to have a police escort to school because kids would taunt her and throw rocks at her, all the while the cop was calling her ginny and dago, and at night they would burn crosses in her yard. Even today I always am receiving insults, people feel they can freely throw out the word Dago without consequences, I am tired of double standards. I was at Put-in-bay at this hotel that has 2 large pools with bars and bands. It was during 4th of July, and someone in the crowd told this one man accoustic guy to play an Italian song, and the song he played was something about, how you know he's a Dago, Bullshit, I was pissed after I told him I would like to see how well he sings with a broken jaw! My dad is a very successful and well respected business man, but he is not allowed to go to certain meetings this one hick commitee has because they say no Dago's...I mean in today's day and age, when a man loses his job for saying nappy-headed hoe's, Italians(S.Italians, Sicilians) are allowed to be treated poorly, there are no consequences.

I have been trying to petition for Italian, Greeks, Spaniards, Israeli's, Lebanese, etc..to have a seperate designation instead of Caucasian/white...I want us to be classified as Mediterrean/white, this will never happen, because they are afraid if they unite us, we will rule the world again like we did for over 3500 years prior...But I say it is time to take back what is ours. Thanks again and I'll be in touch....

Maria Grazia Cucinotta
I wish I knew how to upload pics on here, I have a nice pic of here...and fully clothed, but she is one of the most beautiful woman in the world and I want to put her pic up to show people how beautiful and exotic Sicilians are...can you tell me how to do this?(Scipio3000 04:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC))

Edward321
Has vandalised the page, the cuisine section now merges with the mafia, it is a mess, I have worked so hard on this...did he consult you. This is unfair Me you and thesicilianmandolin were all wroking on this, and Edward321 who has stalked me, didn't contact any of us and he is allowed to this...how is this fair? When I report him I am the one who gets in trouble, I don't think an outsider has the right to over do our work without consulting us. ANd yet we are powerless to stop this, geez I wonder why a White boy who has LIncolns face on a confederate flag has more say than 3 sicilians..unfair and unbelievable.(Scipio3000 15:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC))

Sicilian Cuisine
I deleted Scipio3000's version of this section from Sicily because it was a copyright violation cut-n-pasted from another site. Still, I think it would be valuable to have such a section highlighting Sicily's tasty contributions to the word. If I understand correctly, you are Sicilian so you likely have more to contribute than most editors. Would you be interested? Edward321 00:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)