User talk:Thinleppard

May 2022
Hello, I'm Smallangryplanet. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Rory Gallagher, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at referencing for beginners. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Smallangryplanet (talk) 21:56, 21 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi! I'm new to Wikipedia so I'm still learning. I removed the reference because it is incorrect.
 * See http://www.roryon.com/rorytimes.html
 * “It was only then that he got the medical care he needed,” says Donal. “The surgeon who performed the operation was staggered that such a young man needed a new liver. This damage was compounded by drink, though Rory was not the heavy drinker he was rumored to be.”
 * Also https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0001715/20040626/515/0060
 * "Rory, who was never a heavy drinker, had a quiet word in Gerry's ear about 'drinking off the top shelf'." Thinleppard (talk) 22:01, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Rory Gallagher and alcohol
Hi,

I appreciate that you want to give a more nuanced view of the cause of Rory Gallagher's illness, and perhaps you've written on the subject, but by removing all references to him drinking, the article may now be misleading.

My understanding, from reading a biography and multiple articles is that


 * He did not drink at the beginning of his career
 * He began drinking in the middle of his career
 * His friends who saw him put on weight, assumed he had a drink problem, but he may have been drinking mostly alone at home.
 * The combination of alcohol and prescription drugs was what damaged his liver.

Calling the claim that he had an alcohol problem "unsubstantiated" is a little unfair. Here is a quote from the Vignoles biography "A man in a black uniform brings beer and sandwiches. "Breakfast!" Rory says as he uncaps two bottles of Heineken. It is half past four in the afternoon." On the next page, Rory's friend Eric Bell meets him by chance and they spend part of the day together, and Eric is somewhat shocked that Gallagher drinks wine in two different locations and becomes disoriented. Those are two separate sources, and there are many more, including those closest to him, such as his brother and Gerry McAvoy.

If you prefer, we can say that he did drink, though the extent is not known (and it might not have been much until the 80s/90s?). But that he was drinking while taking medication which should not have been mixed with alcohol. Dhalamh (talk) 09:54, 29 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi there,
 * Thanks for reaching out to me and sharing your comments. If any references to alcohol use are to be added to this Wikipedia entry, then they need to have the appropriate context around them so that a proper understanding is given of Rory's illness and subsequent death and there are no misconceptions.
 * Rory's weight gain was categorically not a result of alcohol use; he had been prescribed steroids around 1985 for various health issues that he had, one of which was a thyroid condition, and this is what led to his weight gain and changed appearance. His other health issues were also not a result of alcohol (e.g. asthma, psoriasis). Even the abdominal pains he experienced later on were from paracetamol that had been prescribed in large doses, which added to an already failing liver from other medication, was a recipe for disaster.
 * There are numerous references that state Rory never drank more than the others who he hung around with, and this is throughout all stages of his career. In my own research, I have interviewed dozens of people close to Rory and the same has been stated. While it is possible that he drank more when alone, there is no evidence to support this in the Wikipedia article, plus any reference to this without mentioning his decline in mental health and struggles with depression and anxiety does not offer a properly nuanced account of his later years. There are also numerous references, including from Rory's brother Donal, making it clear that it was the prescription medication that led to Rory's need for a liver transplant, not the alcohol. While it is true that alcohol and his medication should not have been mixed, it wasn't that he was drinking in vast amounts; just one drink over a long period of time, for example, could cause the damage when used with the meds, and the extent of this was not known then (since, many of these meds have been taken off the market precisely for their link to liver disease). I won't get into the issues with the Vignoles book here as there are many in his bid to try and create a cliched "rise and fall" narrative around Rory. Thinleppard (talk) 10:55, 29 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry I took a while to reply, I've been ill. My first reaction was that arguing alcohol was not a major factor was WP:FRINGE, but I see now there are a few links to support it, coming, as you say, from his brother Donal: here, here. There are of course others that take the principally-alcohol theory as given, e.g., here. Donal is on the record here describing drink as a problem (quoted in Vignoles). Unfortunately, your own research can't be included due to the principle of no original research, though of course we can take it into account in forming an opinion.
 * I had a vague goal of slowly promoting the Rory Gallagher article to good article status, and as such it would need to have broad coverage and address the questions that typical readers will have. How he died, and how much he drank will be things we should address if we're going to be comprehensive (as this is part of the myth of him now, I think). So I think one approach is to give WP:due weight to the two theories, both of which have support in the literature. So something like:
 * he began drinking mid career after been a teetotaler for a long time
 * some sources argue drink was a major factor, other sources argue he never drank to excess and the drugs were sufficient to explain his health issues
 * PS: I've added a good few links to wikipedia principles in the discussion, this is common practice. Hope you don't find it patronizing, but seems like you are early in your WP journey but have the right attitude and I hope we can improve the article together
 * PPS: I wish I hadn't returned my copy of the McAvoy autobiography to the library. Not sure everything he says is super-reliable, but he also shouldn't invent major details and his word on it should be given some emphasis.
 * Dhalamh (talk) 10:46, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi Dhalamh,
 * Thanks for your reply. No - I didnt find it patronising at all. You're right - I am totally new to Wikipedia. I only started editing because I was frustrated with the inaccuracies on the Rory page and want to make sure that it's top quality, so yes, very happy to work with you on improving it.
 * So, in answer to your points, yes, there are countless links to support Rory's illness and death being related to prescription medication and not a result of excessive alcohol intake, including from his brother, who is the most reliable source in my opinion as nobody knew Rory like he did. I agree that there are also other accounts you will read about it being the result of alcohol, although these are rather dubious. I think it's probably fair to say that drinking alcohol likely exacerbated an already damaged liver, although it was not the principal cause of the liver damage; this was the meds. Rory, in fact, went through long periods of sobriety and there were periods even in the last years of his life when he stopped drinking for some time (I can find references for that if you need me to). I think all of these factors need to be taken into account in order to have a fair and nuanced view of what happened to Rory as it is a constant bugbear of mine, it has to be said :)
 * Side note but Gerry's book is massively unreliable. There's a reason why Donal nicknamed it 'Riding Roughshod' ha! He said a lot of things that were completely inaccurate, such as that Rory fell out with his dad and never went to his funeral, when Rory paid for the whole thing and did attend. I won't go into that here as it's offtopic, but it's not a very reliable source to quote from :) Thinleppard (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Copyright
Hi. The text you recently added to the Rory Gallagher article is almost entirely copy/pasted from an apparently copyrighted source. As evidenced by this COPYVIO checker/tool, almost all the text you added was previously published in this Blogspot post, dated March 2022. Which was labelled (presumably by its authors) as "© 2021 Lauren Alex O'Hagan and Rain Morales". This form of "rights reserved" copyright claim is incompatible with Wikipedia's Commons licence. If you are either Alex O'Hagan or Rain Morales, then please read WP:DONATETEXT. If you are not the original blogpost author, them please read WP:COPYVIO. Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 20:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know. If I am able to rewrite this information, is it okay to put it back? It covers a lot of important details about Gallagher's life that are currently omitted from the Wiki. Thinleppard (talk) 20:20, 12 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi. Based on your response I take it that you are not the original author. In which case (in answer to your question about "reposting" the copyright material), I would point you to WP:CLOP. And also draw your attention to WP:CVREPEAT. Guliolopez (talk) 20:28, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I'm new to Wikipedia and trying to get to grips with things. Just wanna make the Rory page as good as possible 😃 Actually, I am one of the authors of that website. I had tried to cite it directly, but looks like Wikipedia won't let me as it's a blog. If I change our copyright to Creative Commons, would we then be able to reinstate the deleted content? Thinleppard (talk) 21:15, 12 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi. In terms of:
 * Using your own self-published blog as a source, please read WP:RS (including WP:UGC). In short, your blogpost is very unlikely to be an acceptable reference in itself. The original sources used to support your blogpost should be referenced. See WP:PSTS.
 * Updating the copyright claim of your blogpost, please re-read WP:DCM (including WP:DONATETEXT) as noted above.
 * Thanks. Guliolopez (talk) 20:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)