User talk:Tiamut/Archive 10

DYK for Place names in Palestine
I hope this will sweeten you day! Take care, Huldra (talk) 11:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC) PS: Do you know anything about the photographer Fadil Saba from Nazareth? (Besides what is mentioned in the Karimeh Abbud article.) I have made a cat. for his photos (postcards) on the commons: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Fadil_Saba


 * Sweet Huldra. I love jellybeans! Thanks. :)
 * I have heard of Fadil Saba. His photography legacy is locally famous here. Will look for English sources to pass on to you and see what I can find in Arabic too. Good to hear from you again.
 * And thanks again for the candy.  T i a m u t talk 11:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have also seen older postcards by a "N. Saba, Nazareth", like this from 1899: Perhaps a relative? And enjoy your candy, it is well deserved! Huldra (talk) 14:52, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I will ask some my elders here in Nazareth if Fadil had a brother he worked with (I recall someone mentioning something about that) to see if we can get a full name for this "N" initial. I tried to find English-language sources, but they are very few (one from the Palestine Exploration Fund which I can't access the full text of and a couple that refeence his photos only). So it looks like Arabic sources will be the main preserve of where information about him might be found. I'll see what I can do, and get back to with more, if I find it.  T i a m u t talk 15:01, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * And same to you! Very pleasant editing with you, indeed! (..and I cannot say that about *all* editors that I meet in the ME-area... no need to mention names ;-D ) Have a nice evening..and I hope Al Almeer son is happy with the expansion of Nabi Rubin, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion
مـرحـبـا,

I'm so sorry to see you being plagued with this continuing nightmare. I do think Nishidani's advice simply to ignore him is the best course – which is more-or-less what I've been doing. Not so easy for you, though, if he keeps trampling all over your work.

I noticed that you mentioned J's latest action on Ryan's talk page, as his mentor Durova wasn't around. I just thought I should mention that Avi is also mentoring J (at my suggestion, and with Durova's agreement, and AFAIAA this is still the case) and that you could raise future problems with Avi, if you so wish. I believe J is more likely to heed Avi's wise advice than either of us, and I trust Avi's discretion on this.

تحياتي --NSH001 (talk) 22:42, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

PS. One of the few things my late father said about his experience as a Japanese PoW - he worked on the Burma Railway - was that the best way of dealing with the horrors was sometimes simply to laugh at them. (The memories were so horrific for him that he refused to talk about it, and we knew better than to ask, but very rarely something would trigger a remark.) Just a thought.


 * A Palestinian refugee from Lebanon] told me the same thing: "If we don't laugh, we die (figuratively speaking, as in the soul does)." Anyway, it's good food for thought. Thank you.  T i a m u t talk 23:54, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Moses Montefiore Windmill
Re your edit, I'm not sure that it is necessary to actually give the source in the text when it is referenced anyway. The Middle East is not my area of expertise and I realise that how the various peoples are described may be a sensitive area. Also, attitudes in the 1930s were different to attitudes today. For that reason, I'm not going to revert the change you made. I will propose a new version of that paragraph and post it on the article talk page so that consensus may be obtained. Your comments would be welcome there. Mjroots (talk) 03:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you get my e-mail with the text from WCF's book? Mjroots (talk) 20:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I have replied on article's talk page re your proposed new paragraph. Mjroots (talk) 07:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow
That's beautiful stuff in there, Tiamut. Great work. I must start harassing you myself, if this is what you can achieve under stress!Nishidani (talk) 16:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Q-D-Š
A proposed deletion template has been added to the article Q-D-Š, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process
 * Not appropriate for English Wikipedia, as it is not about an English language concept.

All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice should explain why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the  notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised because, even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. Editor2020 (talk) 23:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Nabi Shu'ayb
I just started Nabi Shu'ayb, but I did not research it much (mostly used the source you gave and a web page). You should add to it whenever your free. Maybe we could do a joint DYK nomination? Also, I will later ask Huldra for a(n) image(s) of the shrine or festivals held at the shrine. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It'll be tough getting 4,000 more bytes, but we should definitely try. I will add a Demographics section that should be of decent size. I'll also look for more history of the village. Also, what do you think about mentioning Jethro taking refuge in Hittin in the article? --Al Ameer son (talk) 02:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yea I forgot the time difference. Good night. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:05, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you should go ahead and nominate it because I'm at school right now, and won't be back home for about 4 hours. Nice job expanding the article, as well Hittin. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:46, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

November 2008
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Oo7565 (talk) 18:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

For the passerby, I was reverting the blanking of the entire page by an anon IP. Using bots to pass out these messages maybe?  T i a m u t talk 22:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

al-Lajjun
Greetings Tiamut! I just started an article on al-Lajjun, but I got nothing on British Mandate times and the village's capture by Israel. Could you please help me start/expand those parts of the article. I asked Huldra to help too. Hell, this could be another joint-DYK and as I was telling Huldra, like Bayt Jibrin, maybe we could make this article a Good article. I'm already planning Geography and Archaeology sections. --Al Ameer son (talk) 07:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don´t think there is anything wrong with the time-stamps (?) ..it is just that you, I and al Almeer son conduct a conversation over (at least) 3 user-talk-pages + (at least) 3 article-talk-pages + in all the edit-summaries...I have given up remembering what I read where ;- ) Anyway, take care, go to sleep, knowing you have done a good job. Cheers, and good night, Huldra (talk) 18:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)(PS: did you get the Abulhawa-book? I sent it to the Nazareth-library before x-mas last year, and forgot to ask you)

Note re roots
Worried that there might be some intrusive political battle in the air, I sought of DBachmann's advice, on how to handle these pages, and he answered here. Cripes, it would be a pity if all this fresh work were removed. Perhaps I shouldn't have asked. In any case, I thought you and the pages should be notified. Perhaps some measures can be thought out preemptively, in case this issue were to come up. Think about it. Sorry for the bother I may have inadvertently caused.Nishidani (talk) 15:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Phew, that's a relief! Apart from their intrinsic interest, we do need pages where a wikipedian can simply write to snuff, without the constant harassment of the usual contentious I/P kind, though on I/P issues. I'd like to edit, but am very busy, just sneaking about and intruding like a bad smell on one or two pages when I get the time. Like my mother of old, though, a pharmacist, am always on call, if I can be of help.Nishidani (talk) 17:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

A thought and a question
Sorry for intruding. I had a thought, after someone posted the Arabic equivalent (ar.Wikipedia) tag(?) for the 1973 oil crisis. The thought was, how connected are these articles, or are they totally different? Were they developed from a different, local consensus, or were they transliterated from .en.wiki. What differences are included; what gems in en.wiki’s have been hasbara’d to get or keep out? I’m not thinking about the bile and highly pov’d stuff, I’m looking for glaring ref-able holes related to the ‘real world’ and historic/political events and their aftermaths. Like these,, , , , for example. You had a question about the last one, which has been answered and helpful.

A question: Have these thoughts about ar.Wiki been discussed or noted before? Ana mabarf. Regards, CasualObserver&#39;48 (talk) 04:36, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * None taken, and somehow it just doesn’t surprise me, but I am a cynic at times and places. It sounds like the modern era’s Shibboleth to me; what goes around, comes around.  Let me think on it for a while, to see if I can find some probable candidates worth your work.  How much of a sniff test can you do with just a quick read through, without written translation?
 * I am interested in creating something with the article that you had question about; it sure wouldn’t be easy, but it might lead to understanding…if not agreement. You might also be interested in this, which I bought while on my wiki-break. Regards,CasualObserver&#39;48 (talk) 13:31, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Your DYK submission
Hello! Your submission at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed. There still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! &mdash;Politizer talk / contribs 08:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Your DYK submission
Hello! Your submission at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed. There still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! &mdash;Politizer talk / contribs 20:38, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Passing along the wikilove


-- M P er el has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Cheers, and Happy editing! Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Israeli Apartheid Week
I picked this article up from wikiproject palestine's need to assure neutrality (it was quite simple to get it done really), but if you see the article now its come under dipute again. I am trying to tell the edit that his link may well be valid but it's wrong here, yet he insists on putting it here. Some of these hot-topic israel-Palestine issues are totally run by opinion here. I gave on allegation of zionist terror and, oddly, the holocaust article. but it has to stop somewhere.

ps- I created Indo-Palestinian relations. Should I put it on the wikiproject palestine page to get more updates? Although a map would be nice for this? Lihaas (talk) 04:19, 23 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I am on the same page as you on this over-zealous editors. Only that sometimes it never dies down. But I'll monitor the page, I actually only found it from WP Palestine's list of NPOV articles (of which more could use such edits)
 * Thanks though. Lihaas (talk) 16:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
Love you. I didn't answer right away because I am away, touring Egypt. --Ravpapa (talk) 19:16, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Jericho
Great job expanding Jericho's history! Every few minutes I see a new improvement in the article on my watchlist. I'll try to find more on the Arab caliphate and Ottoman history, and as always, will add a Demographics section. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:54, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I added just a bit on it being a principal city in Jund Filastin, however le Strange's Palestine under the Moslems on page 396-397 contains a large quote by al-Muqaddasi as well as others by Yaqut al-Hamawi, Abu-l Fida, and Ali of Herat. I'm logging off right now, so go ahead and take anything useful from the quotes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and added some info. There's something interesting that Yaqut says: "The city is named after Ariha ibn Malik ibn Arfakshad ibn Sam ibn Nuh. I'm not sure if its true, so I didn't add it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Nazareth
You write: > Perhaps we could work on representing the differing opinions regarding the extent of the archaeological evidence? Your formulations seem to present Bagatti's work as confirmation of your thesis regarding a lack of settlement in the first century. Others seem to think differently, as evidenced above. All significant viewpoints should be represented to achieve NPOV. Tiamuttalk 16:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello Tiamut. The difficulty is that the "alternate" opinion (no Nazareth at the turn of the era) has long been suppressed, though it's been around for a very long time. It's found in scattered dictionary articles (going back to Encyclopedia Biblica, 1899), in the articles of Atheist Frank Zindler, and perhaps most substantially in my own recent book on the subject: THE MYTH OF NAZARETH: THE INVENTED TOWN OF JESUS (American Atheist Press,March 2008). See http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Nazareth-Invented-Town-Jesus/dp/1578840031/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206072072&sr=8-1 People should start citing this book soon. Since Wiki has a "no personal research" policy, I can only cite the work of others (such as H.P. Kuhnen). Incidentally, the book is available through my website at a discount: www.nazarethmyth.info. It is necessary reading for anyone who wishes to write about Nazareth history.

To respond to your remarks, I use Bagatti's work but do not accept his conclusions, which are tendentious. You should note this, as you have written Wiki articles on the Church of the Annunciation, etc. Other archaeologists (e.g., Israeli) have reviewed Bagatti's specific findings and have come to different conclusions. But their reports are scattered, obscure, and in various languages. I have collected all that data in THE MYTH OF NAZARETH. The result is a very new (and more correct) history of the settlement, one which contradicts the Gospel accounts of Jesus "of Nazareth." This point of view is now the subject of professional discussion among scholars (e.g., Amherst, N.Y. in two weeks).

I think that the Wiki article would benefit from having the extensive Chad Emmett material severely abbreviated or deleted. Emmett was not knowledgeable on Nazareth archaeology, and his views on the matter should not be cited.

In general, there is no NPOV possible. Rather, we have two mutually-exclusive positions presently articulated in scholarship, both of which should be represented in the article: (A) The majority opinion: a named village of Nazareth existed at the turn of the era in Lower Galilee; (B) The minority opinion: a named village of Nazareth in Lower Galilee came into existence between the two Jewish Wars (c. 70-130 CE). The minority opinion is gaining currency but is still very much "underground" as it were.

I have a suggestion that requires a wholesale rewrite of the article. If you agree that we delete (or drastically reduce) the Chad Emmett material, then I will agree to move the minority opinion (B) to the section "Contrary views regarding Jesus at Nazareth." However, there will still need to be full clarification of the actual archaeological facts (with references) in the section "Earliest History & archaeological evidence." I would be willing to draft an article and send it to you for preliminary "vetting" if you like. Renejs (talk) 20:37, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

rjs-at-epud.net

Kafr Lam
Hi, I think I´m finished adding to Kafr Lam, your turn now to ce and adding! (and thanks for starting the article!) Anyway, if your friends in Nazareth recieved a parcel from Sweden, it was not from me! (I´m based further west..) Anyway, take care, and I hope Kafr Lam makes a DYK, cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:06, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry to hear that the book never arrived (again: I strongly recommend it). Oh well. Glad to see that Kafr Lam made it to DYK! (even with the almost inevitable consequenses . ) WP:Palestine is building stone upon stone (or rather pebble upon pebble ;-P). It is always great to edit with you ...Take care,Huldra (talk) 19:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)  PS: I saw you noted Hittin as a "new article"...but  is that quite correct? Oh well, not very important. I hardly start articles these days; there is more than enough to do expanding those that are already here..

Hummus
Sorry Tiamut, but you reinserting that material into the Hummus article has pretty much rid me of any respect or GF that I had for your editing. You know full well that the material is being used to turn an article about a foodstuff into an attack article, and I'm quite shocked that you are willing to play along with it. пﮟოьεԻ  5  7  16:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * TBH, talkpage discussions on this kind of issue are completely pointless because they just go in circles. I've been in them before with the likes of Jaakobou and PalestineRemembered and nothing good comes from them; the only thing that happens is that good editors are driven away from such topics because they are not as persistent and tenditious as the POV pushers. The fact that the material is reliably sourced is irrelevant, because the material is unwarranted and completely undue.
 * Any editor "working hard to include" that kind of material should be topic-banned on sight because they are doing nothing but poisoning the well. If someone wants to write about that kind of nonsense, then I'm sure there's an article out there about cultural wars in the Middle East. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  16:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've already written to you on your talk page about your wholesale deletion of this reliably sourced material which three editors have voiced support for including on the talk page. If you lose good faith towards me simply because you disagree with my position (and that of two other editors) there could not have been much there to begin with. I'm quite shocked that you would unilaterally impose your own view onto a page without engaging in any form of discussion. And you accuse me of bad judgement? Please. There are right ways and wrong ways to approach a disagreement over content. You just exemplified the latter.  T i a m u t talk 16:47, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * PS - I haven't lost faith in you because I disagree with your position, I've lost faith in you because you've clearly lost the ability to think in terms of NPOV. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  16:52, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Self-reflection anyone?  T i a m u t talk 17:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Not self-reflection at all. You seem to have forgotten that I spoke out about pro-Israel bias in articles many times and pushed for the banning of several editors for such behaviour. However, there has been a shift in editing weight over the past 18 months; many of the pro-Israel lot (e.g. Tewfik, Humus sapiens, Isarig etc) have left, but there has not been an equal decline in the number of pro-Palestinian editors (whose number has possibly actually grown with the addition of the likes of Imad marie). I've certainly noticed that 18 months ago most articles had pro-Israel bias, whereas now it seems to be anti-Israel - before it was difficult to keep the Kach article in a state where it made it clear that it was a banned terrorist organisation - now that kind of stuff keeps creeping into the Likud article.
 * I'm sorry if I was overly harsh earlier, but I've recently been dealing with some unpleasant editors in Irish-related POV pushing (and actually temporarily retired from editing as I was getting so sick of national bias), but I am genuinely disappointed that you can't see that the Hummus article is very clearly an attack article with the inclusion of all that cultural theft stuff. пﮟოьεԻ   5  7  17:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "cultural theft stuff"? Tiamut, I am not yet sure what Number 57 is referring to because I just took a look at the article after seeing something on AN/I. I think it is correct to follow what is said in sources according to WP:verify, but if there is a POV issue driving this, that would be disappointing. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Tiamut! Thank you for your arguments in hummus debate. Wikipedia should include all relevent information if it can be found in mainstream publication and reflect different aspect of international view. Censoring one aspect of information, even if found disagreeable by some people, is dis service to world. i dont know why other people do not understand this. thanks. Ani medjool (talk)

Islam
Hey Tiamut: I have kind of a strange question. Are you a Muslim, or do you consider yourself highly knowledgable about Islam (or know an active user who meets that criteria)? I had a question (unrelated to your edits, AFAIK) about Islam, something I know a bit about, but am nothing like an expert. I won't take offense if you don't want to answer this post. Cheers. IronDuke 00:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Would the word "Jihadist" be considered offensive? In all contexts, or only in some? Eg, as applied to a violent organization run by people who call themselves Muslims. Thanks. IronDuke  00:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I was afraid you'd ask ;). There's a tussle on Osama bin Laden about whether and how to discuss the word "terrorist" as it relates to him and Al Qaeda (NB: I am officially not canvassing you to come to the article or to agree with me.) . I believe that calling AQ a terrorist organization as opposed to a jihadist organization is less offensive to Muslims. But I can't be sure. As I see it, jihad (not necessarily violent) is a holy obligation for Muslims. Many (most?) of them would surely be less than pleased to see it attached to an international pariah. At least, I think so. Thanks again. IronDuke  00:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah... didn't think you'd be wild about the context. FWIW, whatever one may think of the word, if reliable sources are virtually unanimous that, say, "User:IronDuke is a Martian," then for WP purposes, that's what I am. IronDuke  00:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Humus... One of the weirder I-P tussles, IMO. That said, I'm a little uneasy with using Palestine when one means Palestinian territories. What, after all, is Palestine? Gaza? The West Bank? East Jerusalem? Transjordan? Tel Aviv? I'd be very surprised if a place called Palestine wasn't created out of some part of the above, but it hasn't happened yet. IronDuke  01:12, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. IronDuke  01:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * what is palestine good question depends a good deal to your point of view Palestinian land loss map FAQ on the 1967 war systematic colonization of Palestine Kasaalan (talk) 20:04, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

AdminWatch
Hi there; please let me know your critical thoughts: User:Tony1/AdminWatch. Tony  (talk)  16:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hummus2
Hi Tiamut, thanks for your note! Of course I'll take a look at the dispute there and tell you what I think. At the moment I know nothing at all about it. It may take a while to digest and I might not comment til later tonight. I genuinely hope you don't lose heart over this or any other dispute. You're pretty invaluable here, as someone who actually knows a great deal about Palestinian history and culture. Not to mention your grace and charm and wit and collaborative spirit. Editors like me are of comparatively limited value, in that all I'm doing on these I/P pages is kicking stiletto heels at intellectual dishonesty when it's shoved into articles in giant plaster chunks. I'm always bemused when I'm described as "pro-Palestinian," because I have virtually no Palestinian orientation whatsoever; I'm as Western, American, and even Israeli in my intellectual and educational background as can be, and my politics are dead-boring centrist. I just happen to have no patience for word games and Orwellian nonsense, and that's enough to make you "pro-Palestinian" on Wikipedia. Wikipedia needs more genuinely pro-Palestinian editors, in the sense of editors with the knowledge, experience, and passion to improve and expand the encyclopedia in that area.

So for G-d's sake don't leave! Now let me look at this here hummus.--G-Dett (talk) 22:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You did answer it, thanks very much for making inquiries. I am sorry you are feeling besieged by WP; it is, I think a common feeling. I'll be honest: I'm torn, in that I feel as though I disagree with you rather often. And yet... well, I have a lot of theories about I-P topics here, and what should be done in terms of editing them, but I'll not bore you with them unprodded. That said, I know you asked me not to come by Hummus, at least as far as your own edits were concerned. But would you be mad if I reverted all of G-Dett's contributions to that page? I know she kind of counts on me to act as a corrective, but is embarrassed to ask me for help... (Seriously, I do appreciate your civil and thoughtful response. Wish that happened more on both sides of the aisle.) IronDuke  05:52, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXIII (November 2008)
The November 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 17:38, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Copyeditting and Lead
Marhaba Tiamut! Whenever you have free time (I know you've been quite busy lately), could you copyedit and write up a decent lead for al-Birwa and az-Zeeb. I've been expanding al-Birwa on and off for weeks, and recently az-Zeeb. Your help will be very much appreciated as always. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

follow-up on hummus
Hi Tiamut, sorry for the delay. I've posted my thoughts on the Hummus talk page.--G-Dett (talk) 18:58, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I completely understand your frustration, and would no doubt share it had I spent more time on that page. I think what is most maddening is this idea that the encyclopedia shouldn't reflect Palestine as a cultural entity.  That those who want it to are trying to "score points" or push a POV, while those who want to expunge any reference to Palestine as a cultural entity – sources and established usage be damned – are merely safeguarding NPOV.  Ridiculous.  It is entirely appropriate – both per common sense and per the sources – to talk about the poetry of Palestine, the food of Palestine, etc.  When talking about cultural forms like these, you use naming terms that compass both past and present, and when you substitute in political-administrative terms like "the occupied territories" or whatever, on the grounds that these are the accepted terms for present-day political entities, you introduce an inappropriate context.  "The poetry of the occupied territories" for a literary scholar would indicate literature produced, distributed, and consumed under the conditions of occupation, something narrower than and quite distinct from what "the poetry of Palestine" indicates.  Same deal for food or any other cultural subject.  The situation with "Samaria" right now is very different, because those fighting for its inclusion are trying to use it precisely in those political contexts where its use is most fiercely contested.


 * Basque country seems to me an appropriate comparison. There are political contexts – both French and Spanish – in which it would be inappropriate to refer to "the Basque country" as an entity in Wikipedia's neutral voice.  But if we're talking about baby eels sauteed in garlic, it is absolutely appropriate to say this dish "features prominently in the cuisine of the Basque country," and the fact that said region is not actually a state or "country" would be irrelevant.


 * Anyway I am hopeful about the compromise. But I also hope some sort of clear precedent is set regarding terms like these, and the contexts they're appropriately used in.--G-Dett (talk) 01:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you
It is always a pleasure to help..In what ever way I am able...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 15:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I've put an ANI against NoCal100. I know that you have rubbed into him/her so if you have anything to add or take away from it please do..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 18:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks...I too would prefer to get on with improving wiki. I also believe senseless arbitration and wiki lawyering is wasting time, unfortunately NoCal100 is butting in on subjects he knows nothing about merely to insert POV. So I am forced to confront him...Hopefully he/she will disappear back to whichever sock draw he/she came from, but I won't hold my breath for that...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thank you
Dear Tiamut, thank you for what you said. You're right, I shouldn't quit because of that. It is true I'm very frustrated because of those two liars (Bachmann and his friend), but the main reason I'm taking a long break is actually because I'm a medical intern and I have a series of horrendous examinations and ordeals coming up before I settle in a residency post, so reducing the waste time is actually a good idea for me. I might come back later, and I hope to see you again then. Best wishes and good luck. HD86 (talk) 01:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to say happy Eid and holidays HD86 (talk) 01:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Rachel Corrie Edits
the edit discussions gone out of control totally I took immense time on regathering the information and providing reasons for the eligibility of the links yet they refuse the give clear answers at all is there any way we can make progress at the page I also might be wrong yet if I am I cannot understand why can we call some judges or editors for the case I tried to settle but they are not advancing on my approach we most likely talking in different languages they even dont accept human rights watch report on the issue and dont provide any clear reason

Kasaalan (talk) 07:30, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

no need for apologies
Dear, dear Tiamut (sorry, I don't know - yet - how to write that in Arabic), you have absolutely nothing to apologise for. I too was tempted to modify my "vote", as I like to see a responsive editor. I also like to see substantial article-building experience in a candidate. I felt it best to wait a while in order to consider the right response. Also, there were other factors in my illness, but the stress certainly didn't help. I am not in the slightest little bit offended by your changing your vote.

Oh, and I was going to thank you anyway for your support there. When one is under attack such support makes a huge difference, and I appreciate it enormously.

You're doing good work at Rachel Corrie - it will be interesting to see what happens when/if you get into more contentious areas there. I agree with you about the "recentism" on the kidnapping attempt. Ironically, that section is still largely as I wrote it! I had noticed an ongoing edit-war over it, so I just read ALL the sources, and re-wrote it in my own words; the result was accepted by everybody, with only a few small modifications. I wish more editors would take the trouble to actually read the sources in full before summarising/paraphrasing/quoting them - it would save a lot of time in the long run. I think the whole article needs re-arranging for clarity (probably in chronological order) and great chunks of it need to be rewritten. Good luck, you'll need it there!

تحياتي وحـبـي --NSH001 (talk) 16:02, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

PS. A wee hint: when adding a new section to the bottom of a talk page, it's best to do so by using the "new section" tab at the top of the talk page. (It may appear either as a "+" or as "new section", you can change its appearance in your user preferences settings.) That way the correct section name will appear in your user contributions and article history listings. Also means you are immune from "edit conflict"s if someone else is editing the same page at the same time.

Semiramis Hotel Massacre
I was very disappointed when I saw it was you who added Gelber as a reference for this. From my point of view, there is only one crime possible on wikipedia : cheating with the sources. Ceedjee (talk) 20:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You used Gelber (2006) p.78 to source : "[this event] was aimed at sowing terror among the Arab population to drive them out of the city".
 * Of course, I have also removed the other "sources".
 * If you have ones, please refer to the talk:page of the "article" where I reminded (to newbees) how to deal such issues. Ceedjee (talk) 21:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

thanks..
...for the note! you know, I´m regularly wikistalking you, so I will add inf. when I find it! (...and have time..) Just now there is a lot to "clean up"... But I´m always very glad to see when we can get an article with picture(s), like Al-Khalisa, Majdal Yaba, or Yazur.... a picture  really makes a difference! ..I will probably be around for the next few days, but then I might "disappear" for 2-4 weeks from the new year..("Disappear" = "I will be away from my books"..) ...Anyway, Take care, keep up the good work! Huldra (talk) 17:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * WHAW!! I´m really incredibly impressed with what you managed to do with Bethany (Biblical village) ..and al-Eizariya in such a short time! I just did the very basic minimum, ..like moving Church of Saint Lazarus, Israel away from Israel..... ;-P  ..and I´ve done my bit over at commons, so that  al-Eizariya now has its own common-cat.(Only 5-6 Paletinian villages have that so far, but a year ago it was zero, so it´s improving!)
 * And I hope you have a great trip to Bethlehem! As Al Ameer son hinted: Jacir Palace doesn´t have any pictures ;-) Also, if you have time/opportunity: Palestinian Heritage Center, established by Maha Saca apparently has a nice collection of old Palestinian dresses. Many of those at the Chicago exhibition were from that collection...possibly the Beit Jibrin-dress, too. Anyway, if there is *any* possibility to photograph costumes, especially from the 1948-villages, it would be fantastic. It made such a difference to the Beit Jibrin article to get that picture of the dress! ..I am especially looking for a Beit Dajan -dress, --I know they were fantastic, and I believe the  Palestinian Heritage Center have some examples. (Beit Dajan has a long and facinating history, lots of literature about the place, (Baldensperger is now on the net) If we had a picture or two we should definitely go for GA-status!)
 * However, if you check the "common-cat." for Palestinian clothing, you will see that it has greatly increased this last year. So all the bigger towns are quite well covered. What we need is material from the small villages.
 * Oh, and Al Ameer son would surely *love* a picture for Lajjun...
 * Anyway, I might be coming to the West Bank for a week or two next spring. Nothing is decided yet, but it is a definite possibility. However, Israel "proper" will not be on the agenda. But I had hoped to get to Al-Bireh, to see (and photograph!) the INASH center...if it is still open!
 * Anyway, take care, and have a nice (and peaceful!) Christmas...(though I will see you around the next few days, too, I hope! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:44, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Nazareth music
Dear Tiamut

I am listening now to a wonderful BBC radio programme on music in Nazareth. You can listen to it for the next week only, at the World Routes website. RolandR (talk) 13:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * May I join Roland in the spirit of his note, and direct you also to Wednesday 17 December 2008 Tarab available at Late Night Live ABC, Australia Nishidani (talk) 14:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Bethlehem picture requests
On your trip to Bethlehem:-
 * 1) Baituna al-Talhami Museum
 * 2) Badd Giacaman Museum
 * 3) Palestinian Heritage Center
 * Star Street
 * Bethlehem University
 * Aida (camp)
 * 1) And a street map with the positions of the first three accurately marked...if you can't get the photos...I will not matter, have a very good Christmas...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:08, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Take care and many thanks...And may all of the Gods take care of all of their charges...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 17:24, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

It's what we topographical surveyors do. We tend to like coordinates. We see the world in geocoords...Thanks for the recognition...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

As a contributor to the Bayt Naqquba
As a contributor to the Bayt Naqquba article you may be interested in the discussion at Talk:Bayt Naqquba. I am surprised that the editor who posted the proposal has been so uncivil as not to have notified you..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 23:32, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Congrats!
Lajjun passed its review and has been listed as a good article. By the way, I wanted to remind you that Hebron glass has still not been nominated for GA, and if it is nominated, it'll likely pass like Nabulsi soap. You or Huldra should really go for it. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Palestine collaboration re mergers
I have included a topic for discussion with the section Mergers started by Chesdovi as I feel it is within the scope of the topic. Please see and add any comments you feel applicable...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:22, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

.
.Nishidani (talk) 14:44, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Nizar Rayan
Hi Tiamut. Thanks for the help with the article. I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. Are you saying that there are conflicting accounts about who was warned? Are you saying that some sources say he was warned and some sources are saying that his family was warned? -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 14:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for replying. The ambiguities are really saying the same thing. How exactly would it be possible that his family was warned but he wasn't? You think they told all 11 kids and all 4 wives that we are bombing but he did not know? They apparently called the house prior to the bombing and told whoever answered the phone (or they asked for Rayan and told him) about the impending bombing. Whether he told his family members about the impending bombing is something that we will probably never know, but there really isn't any sort scenario in which his family knew about the bombing while he didn't. Best, -- brew  crewer  (yada, yada) 15:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Also can we come to some sort of agreement about prefacing sentences with the source supporting the text. Surely, you admit that the article would look silly if each sentence is prefaced with its source. It lacks prose and is not a MOS that is used at WP. I admit that the preface is required for certain occasions, where a POV news source like Al-Jazeera or Arutz Sheva is making a claim unsupported by other sources. But if it's a mainstream source like the International Herald Tribune, a preface is not needed. That being said, a Hamas spokesperson said as well that he was warned and it's not something that there are disagreement over. It's all over the RS's so that doesn't need to be prefaced either. Best, -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 14:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea. This discussion should take place at the talkpage. However, I have to leave now to talk care of my silly real life, so I'll try to get to it later. Best, -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 15:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * One more thing: I actually read every article in the footnotes. Sometimes the newspaper themselves update the articles, change the information, and the source no longer supports the text. For example, at one point, the Los Angeles Times said that he had 17 children. I put that fact into the article, and an hour later their updated version had 12 children. So I agree that we must go over all the sources until the dust settles, so to speak. At the same time, however, although some articles might seem like they are contradicting each other, they really are basically saying the same thing with different ambiguities. Best, -- brew  crewer  (yada, yada) 15:23, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

You're not alone
Today hundreds of thousands of people around the world are going to be demonstrating against the horrors, atrocities and war crimes in Gaza. In a few minutes time I'll be getting the train into central London to join them. Best wishes my friend, and sorry for the rushed message. --NSH001 (talk) 11:06, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You are definitely not alone, dear Tiamut, but I must admit I am a bit at loss for words. The horrors make me almost numb. As you may know, two Norwegian doctors came to the Shifa hospital in Gaza around NewYear´s eve, they have been reporting almost non-stop to the Scandinavian media ever since. Every day: a new horror. One effect is that there have been protests everywhere, I´m not bothering to update International reaction to the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, as there are  dozens of places where there have been demonstrations. Even the conservative Lord Mayor of Oslo have suggested to move the Israeli embassy away from it´s prime down-town location (it´s up-scale neighbourhood is becoming too used to tear-gas...: not good for property-prices!) But if the Israeli embassy want to move to a place *without* protests, I´m afraid they will have to move to Bear Island ..or perhaps Jan Mayen. ..tonight the socalled "Friends of Israel" held a demonstration (all 300-500 of them).. that sparked off  the worst riots in Norway for more that 25 years.
 * The Swedish and Norwegian experts in human rights interviewed here agree on two things: Israel is "most certainly" committing war-crimes, and, secondly: they can do so with impunity. Nobody will be punished. And the Israelis know it. (Thanks to the US..)
 * But things *are* changing...though slowly. 25-30 years ago it was absolutely impossible to say anything critical about Israel. I wonder how it will be 25-30 years from now? My own thoughts: I don´t think we will have peace in 25-30 years. Sorry.
 * Finally, thanks for the pictures! Especially of the Jacir Palace. I don´t know if you are familiar with her, but one great-granddaughter  of the builder of the palace is Emily Jacir. Now, she is a truly great artist; I´m following her work with great interest. Take a look at her "refugee tent" (embroidered with the names of all the 1948-villages) or this (one of my favorites) "untitled"...books by or about Palestinians...and no shelf . That installation really "hit" me!
 * Take care, Tiamut, and may your Sumud keep you going, cheers, Huldra (talk) 02:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Nizar Rayan
--Dravecky (talk) 05:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXIV (December 2008)
The December 2008 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 05:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Gaza Solidarity
Welcome back Tiamut. Sorry for not greeting you earlier, we've all been busy with the massacre being perpetrated against our nation lately. It's still happening and no one will budge or do anything to stop it (it especially hurts when the Arab governments won't do nothing, it's like those bastards are in on it!) Anyhow, please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine. We can't do much, but we must show our solidarity in any way we can within the limits of Wiki rules. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to connect and say hi/salam. I noticed that you mentioned in the talk section of the article on Operation Cast Iron that you anted to collect information about attacks on medical workers etc.? I have some information, if you still want it. Let me know. PinkWorld (talk) 01:42, 15 January 2009 (UTC)Pink

re:please don't
I'm sorry, but the deleted comments were in clear violation of WP:SOAP. It is acceptable to remove inappropriate discussion from talk pages and I have done so. I am not trying to encourage or discourage anyone's personal views, but comments which are not directly related to improving the article are not allowed. Please do not feel this is a personal attack or a statement of any viewpoint. Some guy (talk) 00:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, I'm sorry, but the rules are on my side in this instance. Per Talk, it is appropriate to directly remove such comments. I have tried not to damage the integrity of the discussions while removing inappropriate soap-box discussion. If you continue to restore the deleted material I will be forced to summon an admin for assistance. Please again understand this is simply to try to and keep the talk page from being bloated with inappropriate discussion which is not regarding improving the article, and nothing personal against anyone or anyone's views. Some guy (talk) 00:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I just realized I did not post the link to the guideline page about unacceptable talk page behavior and I have fixed this. I have created a notice at the administrator noticeboard regarding this incident because I feel the inappropriate text should be deleted. You can contribute to the discussion here. Some guy (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

quote
Hello, I just wanted to say that the quote you have at the top of the talk is the single best quote I have ever seen to try to make people recognize the humanity in the Palestinian people and their rights as basic human beings. Out here in the states everybody, on all sides of the political 'spectrum', make the same tired comparison about what would the US do if Cuba were to send some 5 missiles at Florida; nobody ever asks, publicly at least, what would we do if we were forced to live under a brutal occupation, one that denies basic fundamental human rights, one that denies our mere existence as a people and nation. Would we not resist, would we not fight for our rights? And should we be held in condemnation for that resistance? If people actually reflected on those words instead of allowing the entire country to be hijacked by the AIPAC crowd, maybe the situation would be different. Maybe I wouldn't have to hear Joe Biden and Sarah Palin argue about who loves Israel more during their one debate. Maybe Egypt wouldn't be so scared of losing the billion dollars they get to continue to allow such a situation to stand. A little long winded, but I sincerely wish you the best. Nableezy (talk) 05:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Would you mind if I used that box on my user page? I don't want to just steal it, but I would definitely like to display it. Nableezy (talk) 22:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Shellshocked
It is an impertinence, as an outsider, even to try to console, and I understand as fully as a rank (in both senses) foreigner can what you must be going through. I never speak at funerals, since language seems to me offensive where silence, a glance, and a hand on the shoulder, the elemental forms of communication we share with more civilized primates, must do. Only this, dear Tiamut. If one sees outrage on the page, remember those people manning the ambulances in that inferno. Were they to yield to their humanity, they would break down before even driving off to rescue the wounded, or bury the dead. They know a job is to be done, with passionate determination, because people need them. Articles, likewise, if, by comparison, in an infinitely less important sense, require something like this. We must take in minor key a leaf out of their book written by these heroic men and women in their civic service, quell the rage as a threat to the purpose at hand, which, in our case, is simply to ensure that at least textual justice is done fully to the Palestinians, and their unspeakable plight, in Gaza, by securing a representation that is not compromised by POV pushing from the side which has the advantage of far more sympathy throughout the 'mainstream press' than the enormities we witness can warrant. You will be provoked, as in the past, rise above it, for to respond is to be trapped in futility. Nishidani (talk) 21:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * LRBNishidani (talk) 12:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Hi Tiamut, Did you write to al-Jazeera? I was thinking of doing it too, but you beat me to it. thanks a lot. Jacob2718 (talk) 16:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Medical Facilities
assalamu `alaykum wa ramatullah ya ukhti No veo la sección sobre instalaciones médicas en la página Talk. ¿Cuál número es en tu ToC?

He perdido algo de la información que había recogido, pero inshallah puedo obtenerla de un archivo que he guardado en otra locación.

Inshallah pronto podré darte una piezas de información; gracias. PinkWorld (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)Pink

assalamu `alaykum Ohboy. That is an archived discussion, so it is not possible to add new material to it. Perhaps a section could be established on my or your talk page to add material? Do you want links only or texts with titles, authors, dates, etc.? Don't worry much about the Spanish, btw. Mine's rusty, as well. PinkWorld (talk) 02:22, 16 January 2009 (UTC)Pink

assalamu `alaykum I had lost my files on Operation Cast Iron & international Law and had to reconstitute it from scratch. I have a decent-sized file once again and hope to have it HTML-ised soon inshallah. So far, I have this. Inshallah the section on targets might help until I can get a proper file on international law violations going. PinkWorld (talk) 20:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Pink

Gaza GA
Marhaba Tiamut! I am proud to say that Gaza has been expanded by over 55,000 bytes in the last few days!! Everything from History to Demographics to Economy and Education have been covered and everything is referenced. I'm planning on nominating it for Good article status very soon, but there's still some important stuff that needs to be done before that. First, I was hoping you would have information on Israel's occupation of the city from '67 to the PNA transfer. That section covers well for the first half of the 20th century, but is very general for much of the second half. Two, this might be a bit of a burden on you since this article is even larger than Nablus, but could you please copyedit the article. I made a lot of these additions in a rush so there might not be quality clarity throughout. There might be more problems that I haven't noticed, so please tell me if you find any. God bless mighty Gaza! If you read through the ancient history section, specifically the Israelite (Hasmonean) destruction and massacre of Gaza, you could see a lot of shameful similarities with the most recent destruction and massacre. When they were besieged by the Israelites, the Gazans desperately came to Aretas II ("King of the Arabs") for help since he wielded control of the city and was an enemy of the Israelites, but I guess he cowered and gave them the cold shoulder... Oh how history repeats itself. The Arabs are the Arabs' worst enemy! --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:04, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, no, it's not discouraging at all; that's why I asked if you saw any issues that I didn't find. That bit about the population is very important for the Demographics section, so please add it as soon as possible. As for history, the Ottoman era is large enough, but the other sections could be expanded, particularly the 20th century. I found some more info on the Christian era that I will add soon too. I agree that we should start sub-articles later. I recently started al-Shifa Hospital but it needs work. I'm planning to start the article on St. Porphyrius Church soon and more article on Gaza mayors (Said al-Shawa and Rashad al-Shawa have been commenced). Anyway, I hope you could gather your thoughts soon for the sake of Palestine on Wikipedia. Looking forward to your additions on the great city! Salaamat akhti. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've made many more additions and some copyedditing in the history section and so went ahead and nominated it for GA status. I believe it is now ready, and anything wrong with or lacking from the article could be addressed by the reviewer. Info could be added all the while as well. I am proud to say that Gaza is the largest article we have on any Palestinian city at nearly 100,000 KB, second only to Jerusalem in the cities of Palestine proper. I'm also in a rush to nominate it because I want to devote a lot of time to Hims, and other Syria-related topics for the weeks to come. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Who is civilian
Tiamut, please consider: Said Siam and Nizar Rayan are known military commanders and not civilians under international humanitarian law, but were counted as such by PCHR. There is long discussion on Talk page about PCHR civilian statistics, you are welcome to join. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AgadaUrbanit (talk • contribs) 15:50, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, Wikipedia claims that Said Siam and Nizar Rayan are known military commanders and are not civilians under international humanitarian law. By Wikipedia definition. While we could reflect cognitive relativism of sources we should aim for encyclopedic value and be consistent rather then being wishful. We should not hide facts. I suggest we continue this discussion on talk page. Thank you. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 16:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

"No more war, no more bloodshed"
Tiamut, Let's behave in good faith to each other. I read you User page and learned that you're experienced and were already blocked four times for WP:3RR. You are a naughty boy :) (joke). I'd appreciate if you stop edit-warring with me and change article content while it is still in discussion. I think it is clearly against etiquette While I argue about facts, I'm always ready to forgive and forget and work towards agreement. Thank you. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 22:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Those who read my talk page, would know my gender. Repeated mentions of "etiquette" while ignoring substantive policies cited indicates a predeliction for style over substance.  T i a m u t talk 22:14, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Peace Tiamut, I am also a person, married+2 male. Did not mean to offend you in no way. And if you live in Nazareth I'm your neighbor from עמק_חפר. I also hear the call to prayer, five times a day where I live :). AgadaUrbanit (talk) 23:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I live in Bat Hefer. My house, school of my son and kindergarten of my daughter are just hundreds meters from first ever erected section of "apartheid wall" inside Israel. There were continues cases of gun fire into Bat Hefer before Defensive Wall IDF operation in West bank. There was case where girl was hit by bullet in her house, but she survived. I feel that people in Sderot do not deserve to grow their kids under air sirens. I do not want bloodshed. Hamas should not take Palestinian population hostage for their crimes. If you live in Nazareth you probably know both context and facts.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by AgadaUrbanit (talk • contribs) 06:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Amnesty International Doc on International Law & Gaza
A very large HTML file: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/007/2009/en/4c407b40-e64c-11dd-9917-ed717fa5078d/mde150072009en.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by PinkWorld (talk • contribs) 18:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

assalamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah Finally alhamdulillah wa salawatu `ala Muhammadin wa alih salam I have something out there - though it is very, very rough and disorganised. But it it out there. http://www.geocities.com/pinkownworld/PinkPolitics/Palestine/OperationCastIronInternationalLaw.html The civilian installations list has several records concerning attacks on ambulances and medics. Inshallah it helps. PinkWorld (talk) 06:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)Pink

Your note
Hi Tiamut, sorry to be so slow to reply to your note. I agree that it's awful &mdash; the animals and the people, the whole thing. It's a tragedy that doesn't seem to make much sense. SlimVirgin talk| contribs 00:45, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't want to add to the anguish. But it appears to be a pattern. I was reminded of Chris McGreal's article back in 2004, on the Rafah zoo. Unbelievably painful, like the donkey killing near Havat Maon, writ large. I've dropped a note on Slim's page.Nishidani (talk) 10:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Palestine project
Ahlan biki

Thanks for the invite and your comments! I will see if I can be of help. So you are Palestinian? I am Yemeni and as you know we Yemenis hold Palestinians dearer to us than ourselves. :D --Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 02:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Greetings, please have a look here and give your opinion. Regards.Yamanam (talk) 11:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I read about the anti-Arab attacks in Nazareth, I pray for your safety. With 1330 Palestinians massacred, you would think these 9 terrorists would have some sympathy rather than persecuting the innocent Arab minority in their midst--Falastine fee Qalby (talk) 05:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
Hi again, I was wondering how is it possible for us to rescue this article here, is there anything we can do to shed some light on this particular subject in a stand-alone article? Thanks. Yamanam (talk) 11:36, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Potential info for Sumud
While I was trying to find more info on cultural events/aspects of Gaza at the This Week in Palestine website, I came across this article on sumud here. Just thought it might be worthy of future use. Salaamat! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:38, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Selling of Palestinian Land during British Mandate?
Just wondering where I might find more information about the selling of Palestinian to Jewish immigrants land during the British Mandate? How were those sales conducted? PinkWorld (talk) 05:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC)Pink

work, & more work
Tiamut;
 * First; I hope you are ok, in spite of all the horror. I better say as little about the present situation as possible: it just makes me so absolutely furious.
 * Anyway; you might take a look at my post at Al Ameer son; I hope either you or Al Ameer son start one or more of those 1948-villages -articles (less work for me ;-) )
 * Also: I have been reading a bit about Khalil Raad, apparently the first Arab photographer in Palestine. I googled him, and found several sources about him which  were WP:RS. I also started a commonscat on him: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Khalil_Raad  Now, I only need someone to start the article about him (hint, hint). Ok,  ok, I´m fishing here, but I hope you´ll bite! Take care, Huldra (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish
Dear Tiamut,

I'm sorry to bother you with relative trivialities at a time like this, but a while back I started an article on the unfortunate Dr. Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish. The article has been nominated for deletion per WP:ONEEVENT and I am trying to find sources reflecting his popularity before tragedy befell his house. Unfortunately, most searches end in a flood of articles referring to exactly that event.

If you have the time, could you have a look at the article and see if you can find any sources in the Israeli or Arab-language press?

Thanks a million,  pedrito  -  talk  - 02.02.2009 10:17

File:Day 18 of War on Gaza.PNG
Hello Tiamat. Please see:
 * commons:Commons:Undeletion_requests/Current_requests --Timeshifter (talk) 23:03, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Already restored and fixed it, please review the source i gave to the image and please provide the video as source next time because the general copyright of the website says Non-commercial, only some videos are free for commercial use. --Martin H. (talk) 00:45, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The undeletion discussion is now archived: commons:Commons:Undeletion requests/Archive. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks Tiamat! Here is the specific archive: commons:Commons:Undeletion requests/Archive/2009-02. I just added this to my user page: User Article Rescue Squadron


 * Oops. Fixed the commons link. Good to see you back too. I like my breaks from it all. It is nice to see others pick up the slack. I have removed hundreds of pages, images, and categories from my various watchlists. Allows me to focus on the most interesting and productive areas both inside and outside Wikipedia. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Pink's Online Goodies
salam Not sure if you have this book. If not, I have copy-pasted some things from the Google book that might be useful (and other things that might not). http://www.geocities.com/pinkownworld/TemporaryArchives/Palestine/HisMdrnPal.txt PinkWorld (talk) 05:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)Pink

salam My study of the Nakbah and the 1967 War. Rough, but some good tidbits. http://www.geocities.com/pinkownworld/TemporaryArchives/Palestine/Nakbah.txt PinkWorld (talk) 22:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)Pink

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXV (January 2009)
The January 2009 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 05:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Palestinian fedayeen
I nominated it for Good article status two days ago and it has passed its review! Congratulations on your great work there. It looks as if our (WP Palestine) collaboration on it months ago paid off. I expanded the Infighting section to include the Lebanese Civil War and Oslo aftermath, and I expanded the Second Intifada section to include what these fedayeen are doing today. Again, Congrats! --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:59, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Questions
Salaam, I am writing an article about palestine and have a few questions. User:Falastine fee Qalby directed me to your page and I was hoping you would entertain my questions ;)


 * 1. Are you currently living in Palestine?
 * 2. What do Palestinians do for entertainment? Do you have any cultural dances, songs, plays?
 * 3. How have the activities in 2 above decreased due to the Israeli-Arab conflict?

Regards, --Muhammad (talk) 03:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Salaam, Al AMeer son provided me with the information but it will be good to know your views as well, so questions still open. --Muhammad (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the information. I will contact you again if need be. Regards --Muhammad (talk) 06:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Help on Some Articles

 * The Skies are Weeping
 * Philip Munger
 * Phil Goldvarg
 * Talk:Phil Goldvarg
 * Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie
 * Linda McCarriston

Can you help me with the articles that are related to Rachel Corrie. Kasaalan (talk) 19:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXVI (February 2009)
The February 2009 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 00:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Hebron glass
Congratulations! Hebron glass is now a Good article! --Al Ameer son (talk) 08:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Nominations for the Military history WikiProject coordinator election
The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process has started; to elect the coordinators to serve for the next six months. If you are interested in running, please sign up here by 23:59 (UTC) on 13 March! This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Reply
Left a reply at our usual 'drop', as they say in spy-fiction!Nishidani (talk) 17:58, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut!
I'm so happy so you're back, we've missed you a lot in WP Palestine—I was beginning to think you had left us! And tremendous thanks for the barnstar and the encouraging comments. Half of the articles you mentioned were largely edited by yourself (and Huldra of course) and just needed a little push for that GA rating. If you're interested, I want to nominate History of Gaza for GA in the coming week(s). Information on the Israeli occupation and modern era need to be expanded, as well as the pre-Roman history. I was thinking, eventually, we should establish a task-force or something of the sort for Gaza on WP:Palestine. The subject area has expanded tremendously since the launching of our Gaza Devotion Period, but it's still a long way... I couldn't stand how undeveloped WP Syria articles were, so I thought I'd pitch in. Thankfully, Zozo2kx, the project's "patron", has been working very hard to bring WP Syria into the fold. He's created numerous articles about Syria, expanded existing ones, and is routinely maintaining them. We're collaborating on Latakia now. Anyway, it's a pleasure to see you again. I look forward, as always, to see your new contributions. Cheers and God bless! --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:18, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Question re your edit summary
Hey Tiamut, How are you? Would you be so kind to point out atleast one argument of Haberster that made sense and was not responded to which validated your mass revert? Thanks, -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 20:55, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Responding to something does not mean simply typing on your keyboard to string together a sentence devoid of substance. Responding means addressing the concerns of your interlocuter. I have asked you time and time again to please identify step by step the problems in the text you continually revert out of existence. You have not obliged by doing so, nor have you given me a valid reason why you should not do so. On the other hand, Haberstr has patiently explained the changes he was making in multiple sections. His arguments (and more importantly the quality of the edits he made) have convinced me that his version, with modifications I added, is the best one for Wikipedia. If you would like to explain to me in detail why it is not, I am all ears. If you don't, then you cannot complain when I characterize your responses and non-responsive. Thanks.  T i a m u t talk 21:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * But Tiamut, just saying that he has "patiently explained the changes" and I haven't doesn't make it true especially when the article's talkpage indicates the contrary. As one example, I would like to point to the bottom thread in which I asked what was wrong with the chronological order of my version and Haberster just copy and pasted my version onto the article's talkpage. Further requests for clarification were ignored. You responded that it was "self evident". Is this the type of detailed and patient discourse that you are advocating?-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 21:06, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You are forgetting to mention that he bolded the dates in your version (and added dates in [] in bold throughout the text). That's not just copy and pasting your version onto the talk page. That actually takes some time to do. I understood what he meant by that and I have taken the time to spell it out for you in response to your question at the talk page.
 * As I said above, I would appreciate it if you would put some substance into the comments you take the trouble to type out so that they respond to what your fellow editors are asking of you (and vice versa). I cannot understand what you want if you don't spell it out for me. Please explain what is wrong with the changes Haberstr has made in detail. Believe me, I'll hear you out fully and work to find a compromise when there is merit to your argument.  T i a m u t talk 21:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Tiamut: Yes you [my bad, I meant he did] bolded the dates after copy and pasting my version. But the bolding did not manifest the chronological deficiencies. If anything to the contrary. They do show story being told in a general chronological manner. Please be specific about the problems you found in my version. Thanks, -- brew  crewer  (yada, yada) 21:19, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * First off, I did not bold anything. Haberstr did. I merely explained what was self-evident in the bolding. Second, as I explained in my last comment to you on the talk page, where I hope this discussion will be confined, since going back and forth like this in both places is unproductive, this is not about "your version". Time has moved one Brewcrewer. Other editors want to write about Nizar Rayan too, not just you. You don't defend your version against all newcomers, you integrate the additions of other editors when they are relevant and well-sourced. In this case, I think the changes made by Haberstr and myself are an improvement. If you don't, then you have to explain why. We don't just keep discussing why your version is superior until we get tired and go away (like last time). So please, confine this discussion to that talk page and make your responses responsive. Thanks.  T i a m u t talk 21:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Tiamut: You're absolutely right. It's not about my version or your version. It's about the stable version vs. the proposed version. The onus is on the mass-changer to explain the deficiency of the stable version before going through with mass reversions. You are also right about this discussion. It should be taking place at the article's talkpage. I am still looking forward to an detailed explanation at the talk page what the chronological deficiencies were with the stable version. Thanks, -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 21:34, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for your assistance in this dispute with brewcrewer.Haberstr (talk) 22:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

And thanks for the barnstars, they're groooovy.Haberstr (talk) 23:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back
So good to see you back with us. I was beginning to wonder whether something terrible had happened to you, but just had a feeling you were OK, and in any case I understand what you mean about not being afraid of dying.

Thanks for your note, I was so tired last night I couldn't do more than make a few easy minor edits.

Gatwick was crawling with police yesterday because of the G20 finance ministers meeting near here (not in London, as the BBC site says). The luxury hotel where they're staying used to be divided into cheap rented accommodation units, where some (then young) former work colleagues of mine used to stay.

I've just had a look at International reaction to the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, prompted by your return. It definitely needs some work as it's full of inconsistencies. I attended the two largest protests, quite different from most anti-war protests I've been on - usually there's a good atmosphere with the police, who are very happy to be being paid generous overtime for a pleasant stroll in the countryside, or in central London. This time I had a really bad feeling from their body language. I could sense they were just itching to provoke some violence, and when the march came to a grinding halt in wealthy Kensington (too many people to all get within hearing distance of the speakers near the Israeli embassy), I decided to return home early. Richard Seymour's blog has some good reports on the demos, but he does tend to exaggerate, definitely not a WP:RS.

--NSH001 (talk) 22:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I pass through there regularly on the way to the immigration detention centre (see my user page), will be there tomorrow as well. I don't fly very often, but when I do it's handy to have a major airport so close by, and at least it's better than Heathrow (the anus of London). Also pass through Gatwick regularly on the train. One of the advantages of living here is that it's so easy to get away - recent Eurostar improvements mean the train is better for places like Paris and Brussels, even parts of Germany. An hour in the other direction on the train, and you can step on a boat to France or Spain. The mind boggles at the terrorist Tiamut, with her awesome armoury of crochet needles and nail clippers!
 * --NSH001 (talk) 23:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I missed the bit about strip searches, no wonder you hate air travel. To what extent do you think this degrading treatment is due to your status as identified in your passport? Warm regards, dear friend.
 * --NSH001 (talk) 17:44, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for the welcome message. Those links should be useful. Wodge (talk) 21:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Mahmoud Zahar
I'm currently editing the Mahmoud Zahar article. There was a quote attributed to him "They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine". Basim Naim claimed this was mistranslated. I'm just trying to track down what he actually said. I wondered if you could help? Wodge (talk) 00:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

back again..
Thanks for your note! and wonderful to see the Raad article, and that both the Hebron glass and Lajjun now have become GA. I´ve been away for some weeks (escaping to warmer places..) I read what you wrote about travelling, but you know; for me it is the opposite: when I was younger it was at times such a hassle travelling ....first time I was in London alone I was 16, and tall, and thin, and very "nordic" looking. I got extremely sick of all the attention I got  ...in the end I just learned to say "F..k off"  to anyone trying to talk to me(!)...  my English wasn´t that good, and I had absolutely no idea about the literal meaning of the word "f..k", I just learned quickly that it was effective! Now, that was decades (and at least 15 kg) ago, ..I passed through London again last week on my way home, and I never needed to say "F..k off"  to anyone ;-D  For me it is great to have become so old that I can even travel to, say, Southern Europe without being hassled half to death.

Anyway, I also visited (among other things) an absolutely wonderful exhibition at Tate modern, of Lyubov Popova and Alexander Rodchenko, if you ever have an opportunity to see any work of the Russian avant-garde: use it!

Oh, btw: the http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Fadil_Saba is increasing, some of his photos are very nice, IMHO. However, I can hardly find any information about him in English (hint, hint)... See you around, & take care! Huldra (talk) 13:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "Surreal" is the word, yes. I remember when I was around 19, on "Interrail" to Morocco, and my money was stolen. I ended up in a police station in Rabat, and the only thing the police men asked was "Are you married?" Again and again. Which I of course was, at once! And I had two (or was it three?) sons, for good measure. I have lost count of how many times "my husband" and "my sons" have gotted killed off on the plane home ;-D Huldra (talk) 14:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * well, when I was little I was completely "platinum blonde", up until 4-5 years of age, then it started to darken. Now it has started turning white again...Full circle. And yes; what is in short supply is always attractive: when I grew up it was those (few!) dark-haired boys around who were the ones who got the most attention...  Today it is quite popular among young women here to color their hair completely black, especially among "goth" people. There is a very popular comic about  it: Nemi. In the city where I live it is quite common to see young blue-eyed and black-haired boys and girls, always dressed in black....(it is a very large heavy-metal music scene here, but it really isn´t "my cup of tea"). Huldra (talk) 14:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * yes, Requests for arbitration/West Bank - Judea and Samaria/Evidence certainly is very important, there has been a rather continous effort to change the language. I have been involved in it here and here. Now, instead of following what is recognised by international law, we have some pro-Israeli editors forcing right-wing Israeli views onto WP. See eg what BBC writes about "key terms", ...and compare that with WP. There is a reason why even my pro-Israeli Scandinavian friends (including journalists) refer to wikipedia as "total crap" when it comes Israel/Palestine issues. Oh well. I don´t know if I will gather any evidence here, though. If so, it would broaden the scope of that arb.com, Huldra (talk) 15:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, and note also "Avoid saying East Jerusalem "is part" of Israel or suggesting anything like it." Hah! Try that on WP! Personally I never understood those pro-Israeli people who advocate that it is permissable /acceptable to aqcuire land by force...don´t they see that it is opinions like that which "justify" or encourage Irans or Hizbollahs view of wanting to "wipe Israel off the map"? I mean, if one part can do it, why not the other? Oh well. Glad you found the BBC link useful, some of the info here might also be useful.  Huldra (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

BTW, I just noticed this article under Emily Jacir..it says "Visit Wael Zuaiter’s Wikipedia page today and you’ll find extensive references to Material For A Film" Heh. I added that..;-) early last year...nice to see that it is noticed! Huldra (talk) 21:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and also: I read your evidence at the above arb.com; FM´s first block of G-Dett was indeed a part of a pattern, see User:Huldra/FM. FM used to sweep down on the 3RR page and hand out blocks minutes after Jay or SV had placed a request, and it was a disputed block. Thank heavens such behaviour is frown upon now. Huldra (talk) 23:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok: Morris use the name "Qaluniya", while Khalidi use the name "Qalunya". I thik perhaps if you moved it to the Khalidi name would be best? ... I will start adding as soon as the name is "in place".. Btw, dont you want to nominate Raad for DYK? Oh, and Al Ameer son is up for adminship Cheers, Huldra (talk) 18:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I don´t know about Safsaf; all those similar names drives me almost crazy; see Talk:Abu_Shusha: I´m almost sure they got the wrong Abu Shusha there; the Haifa Abu Shusha do not have an article yet. Huldra (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Psst: aren´t you going to nominate Khalil Raad for DYK? (or have you already done so?) cheers, Huldra (talk) 08:01, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Very sorry to hear about you relative, I hope everything works out ok. Anyway, real life is much, much more important than any web-site...IMO. And there are always more articles to be made...for 2 more 1948-villages (with pictures!) take a look at User:Huldra/Sources. Also Al-Jalama, Tulkarm is a story worth telling, Benvenisti writes about it here; [] Anyway, take care, and look after your loved ones: much more important that WP! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 13:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Tiamut dear, I hope everything is ok? Anyway, I have to tell you; I know some here who is supporting (read: gives away money) to libraries/books. I though of your library in N., would you be interested? There is always the question about ordering, cataloging, room, storage, etc, of course, which you have to have in order "at your side". But money could be arranged ..I think. (we are a book-loving country up here!). Well, I´m still on my "clean-up" operation on all the -48-villages... See you around, & take care, Huldra (talk) 19:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think they could be. I would like to have some more information, though. Could you email me? Oh, and I think I have been typing too much lately: my hands start hurting; I´m unsure of how much editing I will do in the near future. (Catch up with my reading, instead.) And thanks for the work on Bayt Dajan! Cheers, and again: please contact me. Huldra (talk) 17:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * whaw! No wonder you were worried! And yes; I think I will log out now: I had a full-scale Repetitive strain injury some ten years ago; it took me months and months before I could type without pain again. I do feel like repeating that experience. So: back to the books.....take care, Huldra (talk) 18:10, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Gaza template?
Please give your input at the WP Palestine talk page. Cheers! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie nominated for Wikipedia Articles for deletion Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie
Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie page nominated for Articles for deletion/Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie can I have your opinions for the deletion and help on the article. Kasaalan (talk) 22:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Mod obviously miscalculated the votes on the page since he made a decision on merging into Rachel Corrie article again. Kasaalan (talk) 12:32, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Military history WikiProject coordinator election
The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has started. We will be selecting coordinators from a pool of eighteen to serve for the next six months. Please vote here by 23:59 (UTC) on Saturday, 28 March! Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 07:16, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Judaization
Well, looks like it will be shot down. Articles like that should be thoroughly researched and written off page, and only when close to comprehensiveness, introduced. It's obvious the word 'judaization' has upset the 'community', even though I've see this in scholarly works all over the place. I'm not editing anymore, other than just a dab here and there because of the Arbcom case, otherwise I'd hop in and lend a hand. Look at Menachem Klein's Jerusalem 2001 pp.281ff, for a detailed study of the Har Homa case, which Alansohn protests. I'm still struggling to remember a book on Teddy Kollek's administration of the city I once read, which had a good many details on this. Can't place it for the moment. Best Nishidani (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back!
Hi Tiamut!

It's great to have you back... Thank you for your kind comments regarding the ongoing WP:RfArb, your support is greatly appreciated. Btw, feel free to modify or extend my recent suggestions on the list of editors. I'm currently somewhat busy with other matters and don't have the time to find the best diffs for each point.

As for the article on Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish, well, stuff happens. I didn't really have the time and energy to pursue it myself. What I noticed while working on it, though, was that at the time we were completely missing an article on the Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza. It looks like User:Al Ameer son has started it in the meantime. Maybe after the current dispute we could get to work on that, maybe even making it a WP:GA or WP:FA?

Cheers and thanks,  pedrito  -  talk  - 24.03.2009 09:18

Adminship
Thanks for the congrats Tiamut! I'm going to hit up the New Admin School for a couple days and then will get to the real Admin work. It won't interfere with the focus on WP Palestine and WP Syria (lately, I've been expanding Saladin. Roger Davies will donate $250 if it becomes an FA which I'm aiming for in the end). Gaza still hasn't officially passed yet (the reviewer has an extremely busy real life it appears), but I was wondering if you had any info on the 1967-1993 (complete Israeli occupation) era of the city? It would fit nicely in the appropriate section of History of Gaza which I will nominate for GA soon. Cheers and keep up the excellent work! I know you've been real busy lately, but nonetheless you make a great effort to edit—we need more users like yourself on WP Palestine! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:03, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Judaizing Jerusalem
I still try, despite my best rational instincts, to keep an eye on things.

There's quite a lot you could add.

It needs (haven't checked today) (a)a background section, that deals with Jerusalem 1949-1967, and notes Jordanian Arabizing policies, and, in West Jerusalem, Israeli Judaization policies.
 * The Jordanians (i) allowed the desecration of the Jewish cemetary on the Mount of Olives
 * Knocked down the old Jewish Quarter (1966 from memory, hence the Jaffa refugees were moved to Shuafat)
 * Including the ancient Khurvat Rabbi Yehuda Hehasid synagogue.
 * The Israelis de-Arabized to the West much of Abu Tor, Katamon, Talbiyya, the German Colony, Bak'a, Malha, Deir Yassin and Sheikh Badr
 * (Raphael Israeli, Jerusalem Divided: The Armistice Regime, 1947-1967, Routledge, 2002 p.24.
 * I think, in West Jerusalem, the vast Muslim Mamillah cemetary wasn't touched until after 1967, when a good part was bulldozed and converted into a car-park.
 * The Mughrabi quarter was dynamited and bulldozed of course and that is easy to document.ref Henry Cattan, Jerusalem, Taylor & Francis, 1981 p.75
 * After 1967 there's a huge amount, starting with Teddy Kollek's 1970 plan, whose first effects enraged Arnold Toynbee. Cattan (p.77) quotes a letter by him and Geoffrey Furlonge to the Times (March 14,1971) on 'the imminent danger that by the construction for political reasons of ill-considered housing developments on expropriated Arab land, the Israelis will do irreparable harm to the unique character and beauty of the Holy City’
 * See Nathan Krystall, "The De-Arabization of West Jerusalem, 1947-1950," in Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. XXVII, No. 2, Winter, 1988
 * On Ben-Gurion and the 'de-Arabization' of the Mizrahi communities, whose 'Levantine' Arab ways had to be thoroughly transformed to make them into Israelis, see Yehouda Shenhav, The Arab Jews: a postcolonial reading of nationalism, religion, and ethnicity, Stanford University Press, 2006 chapter 5 pp.136ff.).
 * I recommand generally Yifat Holzman-Gazit's, Land expropriation in Israel: law, culture and society, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2007. He too uses 'judaization' and parallels the 'Judaization of Galilee' which was already attempted in the 1950s, but then took wing with the Israel Koenig memorandum of 1976. See particularly pp.133ff.136ff on Jerusalem.
 * Yvonne Schmidt, Foundations of Civil and Political Rights in Israel and the Occupied Territories, GRIN Verlag, 2008 p.462 identifies the terms De-Arabization and Israelification of Arab owned land, with Baruch Kimmerling's early work, ‘Land, Conflict and Nation-Buiulding: A Sociological Study of the Territorial Factors in the Jewish-Arab Conflict’, Department of Sociology and Social Anthropology, Hebrew University of Jeruysalem, 1976 pp.223-224
 * I'll drop stuff you off as time allows, dearest Tiamut.Nishidani (talk) 18:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Just be out for pizza. All the above was rushed. For ‘judaisation of Israel/Palestine’ see Helena Cobban, The Palestinian Liberation Organisation people, power, and politics, Cambridge University Press, 1984 p.,187


 * ‘since 1967, Israel, to facilitate its objective of permanent, unified, sovereign control of the city, has pursued a program of de-Arabization in Jerusalem, including policies aimed at reducing the size of the Palestinian population. Similtaneously, it has employed processes of Judaization and Israelization so as to transform Jerusalem into an overwhelòmingly Jewish metropolis – demographically, culturally, socially, and politically’ Cheryl Rubennerg, The Palestinians; In Search of a Just Peace, Lynne Rienner Publishers, 2003 p.194


 * An important consideration, which I'm sure you know about, but which has a source, is the fact that Israeli Arabs face many obstacles in moving to Jerusalem. I.e. this is not only an issue of East jerusalem, but the fact that regulations are used to stop Israel's own Arab population from moving in an affecting the demographics. Yifat Holzman-Gazit's, Land expropriation in Israel: law, culture and society, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2007 n.18 p.137


 * p.s. it would be helpful to have a short section on the language used. I have given you a source that identifies B Kimmerling as one early academic theorizer using the terms. But it is worth while putting in the Hebrew and Arabic terminology used to describe these practices. I only have Biblical dictionaries of Hebrew usage, but I'm sure the words 'hebraization, israelization, judaization' ('Judaization of Jerusalem' as a phrase) would be registered in modern usage, since one encounters it frequently. Note the Mizrahi 'de-Arabization' programmes. Mizrahi populations were ‘de-Arabized’ in the spirit of Ben-Gurion’s ‘We do not want the Israelis to be Arabs. It is our duty to fight against the spirit of the Levant that ruins individuals and societies.’ Amnon Raz-Krakjotzkin, ‘The Zionist Return to the West and the Mizrahi Jewish Perspective,’ in Ivan Davidson Kalmar, Derek Jonathan Penslar (eds.) Orientalism and the Jews, UPNE, 2005 pp.162-181, p.173


 * Must get back to my novel, a delightful novella by Erri de Luca (Il giorno prima della felicità), about a Neapolitan ragamuffin who learns to love books after stumbling on the hiding place where a wise old Napolitan bookseller hid a Jewish man during World War 2, and where the latter left his books on liberation.Nishidani (talk) 21:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Bulldozing ottoman past
Sandra Marlene Sufian, Mark LeVine (2007) Reapproaching borders: new perspectives on the study of Israel-Palestine Published by Rowman & Littlefield, ISBN 074254639X from p 15

Chapter 1. Filling a Gap in Chronology: What archaeology is revealing about the Ottoman past in Israel. by Uzi Baram.

Until the 1980s, the material evidence of the recent past, particularly that of the Ottoman period (1516-1917), was avoided, ignored or bulldozed away (Baram 2002). Yet the material ...........

Re   Re-naming as the process was called Hebradising by Meron Benvenisti there’s an alternative

maybe you could use it on Judaising of Jerusalem....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 19:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

in Judaization of Jerusalem there is a section missing re: archaeological vandalism of Ottoman past....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 14:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (File:Leila Khaled cover.jpg)
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User:Tiamut/Origins article draft - userfication complete
Per your request to my talkpage, and per my cose at the associated AfD, I have undeleted the article and place it at the above link. There are some caveats attached: If you have any questions, or if I can help in any way, please do not hesitate to ask on my talk page or by e-mail. Best wishes, Fritzpoll (talk) 19:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This can be the only copy - this is as a result of Wikipedia's content license. If you look at the history of the above page, you'll see all the previous edits, and these must be retained.  Do not copy this article elsewhere.
 * Neither you nor anyone else must move this back into the article space without consulting more widely first. Either ask me, another admin, or request a deletion review to get feedback.  If you don't do this, the article is likely to be deleted again.

Arab salads
I saw you moved Arabic salad to Arab salads. I have no issue with the move, except most of the sources reference a dish specifically called "Arabic salad" (even if the salads they mention are known traditionally by other names in the ME). Maybe some additional sources should be brought in, or perhaps the addition of sections to include more details on specific salads. Otherwise we have an article called "Arab salads" that mainly references a specific variation. Just a thought. --Nsaum75 (talk) 10:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : Issue XXXVII (March 2009)
The March 2009 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you. This has been an automated delivery by BrownBot (talk) 03:51, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Susya
Tiamut. Could you possibly find for me the Arabic for the village of Susya? At present it is an Israeli setlement page but deserves work since it has a history going back to Hellenistic times, and the Susyan Palestinians there migrated and set up their unique lifestyle there on lands they purchased during the troubles of the 1830s, shifting out of Hebron. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 15:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's some info I dug up about "Khirbet Susiya" (خربة سوسيا):

From http://www.alquds.com/docs/pdf-docs/2008/11/16/page14.pdf

خربة سوسيا تقع خربة سوسيا جنوب شرق بلدة يطا، ويبلغ عدد سكانها حوالي ) 200 ( نسمة معظمهم من مزارعين ومربي ألاغنام، ولا يتوفر في الخربة أي مظاهر للحياة الحديثة من م اء او كهرباء، ويعتمد بعضهم ف ي الإض اءة على مولدات الطاقة الكهربائية من خلال ' خلايا شمسية 'و يديرها لجنة محلية من أهالي الخربة، يحدها من الشرق مستعمرة سوسيا، ومن الغرب خربة سوسيا القديمة، ومن الشمال منطقة خلة صالح والشارع الالتفافي ' 317 ' بلدة السموع ومستعمرة ' نوف نيشر '. ويشار ان خربة سوسيا الحالية هي اسم لخربة سوسيا القديمة التي هجر أصحابها منها عام 1967 ، وسكنوا الى الشرق من خربتهم ثم اقاموا الخربة في موقعها الحالي حيث اقامت مجموعات يهودية مستوطنة اطلقوا عليها اسم سوسيا ايضا لطمس معالم القرية الفلسطينية التي لا تزال اثارها شاهدة على سكانها الاصليين من الفلسطينيين حيث وتظهر آثار البيوت وبقايا المسجد الذي دمره الاحتلال وحوله الى كنيس يهودي..

Here's Google's translation (I don't have time to better translate it at the moment): Khirbat Susia located southeast of the town of Yatta, And has a population of about (200), most people Of farmers and sheep breeders, and is available in the damaged Any manifestations of the modern life of the poor, electricity meters, And adopt some of P j on the ground constructive generators Electric power through the 'solar cells' and Managed by a local committee of residents of dilapidated, is bounded Susia colony from the east, and west of Khirbat Susia old, is in favor of the north region Khallat The bypass road '317' colony and the town of Samu 'Nouf Nicher'. It is noteworthy that the current dilapidated Susia is the name of Khirbet Susia old owners abandoned them in 1967, And lived to the east of Krepetthm and then lived in dilapidated In its current location, where established Jewish groups Fired by the name of the settlement of Susia also blur The parameters of a Palestinian village which still Witness to the original inhabitants of Palestine Where the effects of the remnants of houses and the mosque which was destroyed by Occupation and turned it into a Jewish synagogue --Fjmustak (talk) 20:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * خربة سوسيا was the name it bore from the mid 1830s, when it became the focus of Hebron's poorest Palestinians who fled the troubles and apparently scraped enough together to buy the bare land there. This Khirbet Susiye, after the occupation, was excavated and the Israeli naming committee made a Hebrew calque, with its poetic hint of horses grazing, on the Arabic term to designate the site, namely Horvat Susya, in line with their de-Arabization policy. Susya was suspected, of course, to lie behind Arabic Susiye, but it is, as far as I can make out, an invented name, since no Jewish sources ever register such a name in the area. For this reason, there is a technical problem in designating it primarily by the Hebrew name, since that is simply an occupational de-Arabizing piece of fictive nomenclature for a Palestinian village, though for 3 decades it is how accepted usage for the Israeli settlement, one of the most vicious in the area. For the moment, we therefore need to register the Arabic name alongside the Hebrew one which heads and introduces the page. As information thickens, and sources improve, we can discuss the central issue of what name, and what disambiguating links, or links, should have priority. The synagogue was in use from the late fourth to the 9th century, and was then converted to a mosque. I have written its history, and it goes to some pages. I don't know whether the mosque was used by that extraordinary subculture of Palestinian herders and cave-dwellers who lived there before they were kicked out.
 * Our house shakes, like everyone's everyday. But nothing like the wild vibrations one gets, on a monthly basis, in Tokyo. I've long ago adopted Insh'allah as the appropriate response when woken, though everybody here seems to run into the streets. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 10:58, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

depopulated villages maps
Marhaba Tiamut, I am working on updating the Template:Infobox Former Arab villages in Palestine to include coordinates and a pushpin map. For an example as to how it would look see User:Nableezy/depop template new test. Let me know what you think and any improvements that you think could be made. Nableezy (talk) 03:54, 12 April 2009 (UTC)