User talk:Tim Pierce/Jewish Defense League

With the intro section so brief, I not sure this ("The Federal Bureau of Investigation has described it ... ") needs to be in the intro. If the intro was much longer, it may make more sense to include this subject in it. I prefer the idea of moving the subject to a section in the main body of the article. Doright 20:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * That makes sense to me, especially since there is already a "Terrorism and the JDL" section. Tim Pierce 22:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think your proposal looks good, but I have some questions about the section called "Terrorism and the JDL".
 * (1) It occurs under the heading "controversies", and begins with the statement "There has been considerable debate over whether the JDL is appropriately classified as a "terrorist organization.". I don't think this is correct. What is the source for this claim? Where has this debate taken place?
 * (2)Mary Doran, an FBI street agent, described the JDL in 2004 Congressional testimony as "a proscribed terrorist group," though Doran also acknowledged that she is not involved in "policy and administrative decision-making processes." What does this "though" and acknowledge" signify? Is this an administrative question? Why? Also the quote is out of context. It appears as if Doran made the statement in connection with calling the JDL a "proscribed terrorist group", which she didn't. (It was in connection with a discussion of Al-Qaeda.)
 * (3)Shouldn't you mention that in the FBI report on "Terrorism 2000/2001", the JDL was classified as a "right-wing terrorist group"? (On page 11 in a comment to the classification of terrorist incidents: "The Jewish Defense League has been deemed a right-wing terrorist group.)"
 * (4)I've tried to find FBI documents or news sources to support the claim that the FBI has declined to call the JDL a "terrorist group" or that they did not deem the JDL to be a terrorist group, but I haven't found anything. To the contrary, according to the Australian (June 16, 2004 p 11) "The FBI lists the JDL as a terrorist organisation."
 * Hope this helps, --Denis Diderot 02:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Denis - in general the reason for the wording that I propose is an attempt to stick to what I see as the bare facts that I have seen and to limit generalization. Because this issue is so incendiary, I'm trying to be even more conservative than I might be otherwise.  To take your questions one by one:
 * I think the last two weeks of activity on Talk:Jewish Defense League are prima facie evidence that the issue is debatable. :-) But if you would be more comfortable if the first sentence were left out, I'm willing to do that.
 * The "though" and "acknowledge" signify that Doran's testimony cannot be taken as speaking for official FBI policy. It is certainly relevant that Doran testimony described the JDL as a "terrorist group," but it is equally relevant that Doran is not a policymaker.  To give a counterexample, Doran's report also describes Usama bin Laden as a "spiritual leader of virulently anti-Western interpretation of Islam," but an article that used this to say that the FBI had identified Usama bin Laden as a "spiritual leader" would be also misleading.  Altogether, this article makes a useful point but it is not very strong evidence for the contention that the FBI as an organization has officially proclaimed the JDL to be a "terrorist group."
 * I'll add the quote from the Terrorism 2000/2001 document.
 * Proving a negative (that the FBI has declined to say something) is pretty difficult. I've incorporated all of the supporting commentary from the FBI that you've supplied but I'm afraid I find a lot of it to be relatively circumspect on the subject of the JDL, and I don't think it's appropriate in an encyclopedia to go much farther than I have here. -- Tim Pierce 16:45, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Tim, well done! Doright 18:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Tim, thanks for the clarifications! I agree with Doright above.


 * Perhaps I should explain why I asked some of these questions. There appears to be some confusion about what it means to say that FBI has deemed the JDL to be a terrorist group. According to the definitions used by the FBI, this is the same as saying that the group has been held responsible for terrorist incidents. The FBI has not made public lists of designated domestic terrorist groups like those published by the State Dept for foreign (or international) terrorist organizations. Therefore it seems misleading to suggest that the JDL would be on such a (non-existing) list if the FBI had deemed it to be a terrorist group, or even that the FBI makes official policy decisions to designate some groups as "terrorist".


 * It may possibly (though I doubt it) be interesting to note that the JDL has also been described by an FBI representative (special agent Mary P. Hogan, 2001) as "a violent subversive organization".--Denis Diderot 14:43, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Denis - thanks for your feedback, and I think you've hit the nail on the head: I don't get the sense from the documentation I've seen that the FBI has a formal, hard and fast designation for distinguishing "terrorist groups" and "non-terrorist groups," and it makes me uncomfortable to characterize them that way. I feel a lot more comfortable summarizing the statements that the FBI and other groups have made about whether a group has been connected with specific violent incidents, and allowing the reader to conclude whether that makes something a "terrorist group." Tim Pierce 16:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Founding of the JDL
JDL was founded in 1968 by Rabbi Meir Kahane. The JDL states that it is firmly committed to its motto, "Never Again," by words, deeds and actions, and that, The Jewish Defense League came into being to educate the Jewish people to the concept of Ahavat Yisroel -- one Jewish people, indivisible and united, from which flows the love for and the feeling of pain of all Jews.  They further state as follows:  ''It sees the need for a movement that is dedicated specifically to Jewish problems and that allocates its time, resources, energies and funds to Jews. It realizes that in the end -- with few exceptions -- the Jew can look to no one but another Jew for help and that the true solution to the Jewish problem is the liquidation of the Exile and the return of all Jews to Eretz Yisroel -- the land of Israel. It sees an immediate need to place Judaism over any other "ism" and ideology and calls for the use of the yardstick: "Is it good for Jews?"

''JDL teaches the concept of Hadar -- pride in and knowledge of Jewish tradition, faith, culture, land, history, strength, pain and peoplehood. Hadar is the need to have pride in Judaism and not allow it to be disgraced and defiled by beating and desecration of Jewish honor. This is the concept that the great Jewish leader Zev Jabotinsky attempted to instill in the oppressed and degraded masses of Eastern Europe 60 years ago. The anti-Semite's hatred and contempt of the Jew is an attempt to degrade us. It is an attempt to instill within the Jew a feeling of inferiority. It is an attempt that, all too often, succeeds in promoting Jewish self-hatred and shame in an attempt to escape one's Jewishness. Hadar is pride. Hadar is self-respect. Hadar is dignity in being a Jew.''

''JDL upholds the principle of Barzel -- iron -- the need to both move to help Jews everywhere and to change the Jewish image through sacrifice and all necessary means -- even strength, force and violence. The Galut image of the Jew as a weakling, as one who is easily stepped upon and who does not fight back is an image that must be changed. Not only does that image cause immediate harm to Jews but it is a self-perpetuating thing. Because a Jew runs away or because a Jew allows himself to be stepped upon, he guarantees that another Jew in the future will be attacked because of the image that he has perpetuated. JDL wants to create a physically strong, fearless and courageous Jew who fights back. We are changing an image, an image born of 2,000 years in the Galut, an image that must be buried because it has buried us. We train ourselves for the defense of Jewish lives and Jewish rights. We learn how to fight physically, for it is better to know how and not have to, than have to and not know how.''

''Mishmaat -- discipline and dedication -- creates within the Jew the knowledge that he (or she) can and will do whatever must be done, and the unity and strength of willpower to bring this into reality. It was the lack of discipline and Jewish unity that led continually to the destruction of the Jewish people. It is Jewish unity and self-discipline that will lead to the triumph of the Jewish people.''

''Faith in the greatness and indestructibility of the Jewish people, our religion and our Land of Israel is Bitachon. It is a faith that is built by our belief in the Jewish G-d of Hosts and the incredible saga of Jewish history that has seen us overcome the flood of enemies that have arisen to wipe us out in every generation. It is this faith in the permanence and survival of the Jewish people that, in turn, gives faith in the ultimate success of the Jewish Defense League. No matter how difficult, no matter how impossible the task may seem -- if it is a good task, if it is a holy task -- it will succeed, because it must. ''

''The sources for the philosophy and actions of the Jewish Defense League are Jewish sources. They stem from the wellsprings of Jewish tradition and have their roots in Jewish teachings. In the Bible, in the Talmud, in the teachings of our rabbis throughout the ages, in Jewish practice throughout history, the concepts of Ahavat Yisroel and Hadar Yisroel and the practices of Barzel Yisroel, Mishmaat Yisroel and Bitachon Yisroel are hallowed. At the same time, an eternal debt is owed to Jews of our age who also recognized that these concepts are indeed Jewish and who fought an assimilated Jewish tide to put them into practice. We refer to the great Zev Jabotinsky, his followers and his movement of which we consider ourselves a spiritual part. And sitting in Heaven righteously alongside Jabotinsky is the founder and forever spiritual leader of the Jewish Defense League, Rabbi Meir Kahane. May the Almighty grant us the understanding to recognize and act on our problems forthrightly and the courage to go out to battle against our enemies in the face of all obstacles -- from within and without. '' []