User talk:Timmyshin/Archive 2

The Young Warriors (TV series)
Hi, can you translate the plot summary from baidu to The Young Warriors (TV series)? Thanks.--NeoBatfreak (talk) 05:20, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, yes I can, but please allow me maybe a month. Timmyshin (talk) 10:51, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It just I believed that a plot summary would help the readers better inform than a premise, and it doesn't have to be a detailed summary as well.  Wikipedia's standard for summaries for television series and films is between 400 to 700 words, thus, you can omit details you think unnecessary to the general plot when you are translating.  Again, thanks.  Translation is not my strongest, which is I am asking you for help.--NeoBatfreak (talk) 17:28, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Chinese empress
I feel you were not justified to move articles without a move discussion when the titles were discussed and came about through a move discussion. I am speaking about the articles listed on Talk:Empress Ma (Hongwu). the change to dynasty in parenthesis is better, I agree. But we should follow the Chinese wiki titles as much as possible.Posthumous names aren't used but regnal names and titles held during their life should be used instead of surnames like Empress Zhuangliemin.--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 16:42, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Feel free to relist them for a discussion, I was not aware of the existence of a previous one. FYI "Zhuangliemin" is also a posthumous title (according to its Chinese wiki). I also feel that the Chinese wiki titles are poor guides to what the English title should be; from the little that I've seen they have no consistency and certainly do not indicate a consensus about the most popular name. Cheers. Timmyshin (talk) 18:11, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Gong Li
Timmyshin, I live in New York City, have had a succession of Chinese girlfriends from the mainland and, believe me, they all refer to her as "Li Gong." If you mention Gong Li, they literally have no idea to whom you're referring. The editors at the Internet Movie Database are aware of this and list her as "Li Gong." (Why do you suppose this is?) We need to fix this because, as it currently stands, the Wikipedia entry for Gong Li is wrong to the point of confusion for not mentioning this. Thanks, I know you mean well. Jump Forward Immediately (talk) 21:10, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * No Chinese person will ever call her "Li Gong", I suggest you check with other Category:User_zh-N on Wikipedia. IMDB attempts to list all actors surname last in the Western order for organization purpose (Yun-Fat Chow, Ziyi Zhang etc.), nothing special. Timmyshin (talk) 00:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Small question about 3Y2P
Hi Timmyshin -- I saw that you added "3Y2P" to a number of pages recently, such as Feng Menglong. But the code didn't seem to work, only leave "Nav box" on the page. So 1) I wonder if you can fix this. 2) It looks important and useful, so should I be adding it to articles I work on? Cheers ch (talk) 17:33, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing it to my attention. 1) Fixed; 2) Feel free! Cheers. Timmyshin (talk) 19:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms rulers template
I don't think I've said this before - but you did a great job on it. --Nlu (talk) 16:01, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! However, for many of the southern rulers that I'm completely unfamiliar with, I really don't know what names should be used for the titles. Also I might have missed some rulers (The Chu (Ten Kingdoms) page has a Ma Xichong?) or maybe the opposite, please revise it as needed. Timmyshin (talk) 16:38, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I added Ma Xichong to the template. I myself am not completely sure yet as to what names to use for the Min rulers.  I will think more about it and add/revise as needed.  (I think at some point the post-Chu rulers of Hunan should be added.)  --Nlu (talk) 23:58, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't really have an opinion since my knowledge on the southern kingdoms is too limited, but if the Hunan Zhou family are included, then I believe cases can also be made of the post-Min warlords in Fujian 留從效/陳洪進. Not sure about the post-Later-Shu "king" in Sichuan 全師雄, maybe he's just considered a rebel leader... Timmyshin (talk) 01:04, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Untitled
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.168.109.74 (talk) 04:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Epic Barnstar

 * Thanks, but it's not finished, and I still haven't figured out the best way to disambiguate consorts with the same surname. What is your take on this? I had a few months ago created a discussion at: Talk:Empress Guo (Ming). Timmyshin (talk) 07:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Ah. I didn't know myself, either.  The reason why I generally used husbands' posthumous names/temple names is because at that time, more emperors than now (and even now, most are) known by posthumous names, and therefore I thought that would be a more consistent way to disambiguate.  I am, in the long term, in favor of persuading people to let all the emperors be moved to personal names rather than posthumous/temple names, but when I brought up the issue (several years ago, for sure) people fought it tooth and nail.  Things may change as time goes by.  --Nlu (talk) 16:53, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually I'm also slightly in favor of personal names for emperors: if only their personal names didn't change so much. Anyway, back to the empress disambiguation, what do you propose for zh:王皇后_(金宣宗)'s English title, versus Empress Wang (Xuanzong)? Timmyshin (talk) 20:28, 3 January 2014 (UTC)‎


 * For now, Empress Wang (Xuanzong of Jin) may have to do. Perhaps, then, Empress Wang (Xuanzong) should be moved to Empress Wang (Xuanzong of Tang)?  --Nlu (talk) 04:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

More Gong Li
Timmyshin, explain to me why Gong Li is identified as "Li Gong" on her imdb.com page. Jump Forward Immediately (talk) 14:22, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't work for IMDB. And Yao Ming is called "Ming Yao": http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1495244/ Timmyshin (talk) 23:12, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Queen/Empress Zhou
It is my opinion that it should be translated as "empress." As you noted, it is frequently used in translated sources, but I think that even in Chinese sources she (and her sister) are treated as empresses, because Li Yu's title of 國主 was clearly considered greater than the 國王 title that Qian Chu had, even by Later Zhou and Song. (Note that Guo Rong did not accept Li Jing's brief self-use of the title 唐國王 and later referred to him as 江南國主, which eventually became a title that stuck.) Moreover, while he had to seek permission, Li Yu did get permission from Song to use imperial titles for his father Li Jing after Li Jing's death. Traditionally, both Chinese and otherwise, sources do also certainly treat Li Yu as an emperor. The wife of an emperor, then, should be treated as an empress. I'd like your further thoughts, though. --Nlu (talk) 16:44, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for writing me. I still disagree, however. My primary point of using terminologies like "king/queen" was to distinguish 國主 from 皇帝 and demonstrate the clear hierarchical relationship like the terms intended to. I don't know what relationship 國主 and 國王 have, and I don't believe the "rank" between these 2 terms important. I also don't know what source you consulted that treated Li Yu as an emperor. Li Jing being permitted to have a temple name should have no bearing on Li Yu. Certainly he lived like an emperor and was an emperor for practical purposes, just like the Wuyue rulers or even Goryeo (which used Later Zhou era names) rulers. However, I don't believe it proper to translate 國主 as emperor, otherwise why was this term used in place of 皇帝? I consulted a few books in English and 國主 is translated either as "ruler" or "ruler of the kingdom". As far as his wife/wives (notice the terminology 周后 rather than 周皇后) being translated as "queen(s)" in English, I have a source here for your reference (I have never seen this book though): http://books.google.com/books?id=sF90iFCoAsYC&pg=PR1&lpg=PR1&dq=china%27s+southern+tang+dynasty&source=bl&ots=20_uvkpFXX&sig=3JuRoFRKu5tHl9r1hYiimq3PsBM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=q1_QUuGUIY6kqwGik4DQDg&ved=0CGIQ6AEwBg#v=snippet&q=queen%20zhou&f=false (Notice the same book used "empress" for Li Jing and Li Bian's wives: http://books.google.com/books?id=sF90iFCoAsYC&pg=PR1&lpg=PR1&dq=china%27s+southern+tang+dynasty&source=bl&ots=20_uvkpFXX&sig=3JuRoFRKu5tHl9r1hYiimq3PsBM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=q1_QUuGUIY6kqwGik4DQDg&ved=0CGIQ6AEwBg#v=snippet&q=empress&f=false ) Another English book (probably the only other one in English to write about the Zhou sisters) indeed has "empress" which is Lyric Poet of the Southern T'ang, but that book was mainly concerned with poetry. That book had the Zhou sisters as "Empress Chao-hui" and "Empress Hsiao-Chou" respectively (which makes little sense IMO). I'm still not sure what your main concern with the words "queen/empress" is, you must have your own reasons. Timmyshin (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

I understand your point, but consider the following:
 * 1) Traditionally, 主 is used for "false" emperors (under the traditional Chinese distinction of "true" (正統) and "false" (僭偽) emperors).  Throughout the Zizhi Tongjian, for example, including during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period, all "false" emperors were referred to as 主 — even though, at the start of the Three Kingdoms Period, Sima Guang wrote a lengthy explanation on how his distinction was not intended to honor "true" emperors and degrade "false" emperors (whereas, if those non-"true" rulers only claimed the title of 王, he would refer to them as 王 and not 主).  (See Zizhi Tongjian, vol. 69.)  Instead, if you read the Zizhi Tongjian references to Li Yu's grandfather Li Bian and father Li Jing, they were referred to as 唐主 (consistent with, again, the traditional dichotomy between "true" and "false" emperors) rather than 帝 (which the Zizhi Tongjian used for the Five Dynasties' emperors) — even the Liao emperors (even though Song treated Liao as an equal diplomatically) were referred to as 遼主.  主, in this context, was clearly distinct from 王.  (Yet differently, he used 上 when referring to emperors of united China dynasties.)
 * I understand your point about 主, but I'm not confusing the word with 王. I think where we differ is I intend to emphasize the fact that Li Yu is not a 皇帝; whereas you are stressing that he is not a 王. I do understand the historiographer's bias against the so-called "10 kingdoms"; however, I don't think this is relevant in the case of Li Yu. I don't have a problem, for example, with Liu Chang or Meng Chang being considered 皇帝. I just simply believe the terminology in the translations should reflect the historical importance of the fact that Li Yu never declared himself 皇帝, and as such different from his daddy and grandpa. Timmyshin (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) 國王s (including Li Yu's contemporary Qian Chu, as I pointed out) couldn't, and didn't, create other people various noble titles, while Li Yu continued to do so with tacit Song approval.  While most of those titles went only as high as dukes (which could support an implicit reading of 國主 as translatable as "king"), Li Yu's uncles kept their 王 titles after Li Jing's submission to Later Zhou and Song, and Li Yu even created his deceased son Li Zhongxuan 王 (specifically, the Prince of Qi, although he was only the Duke of Xuancheng while alive), which would be inconsistent of treating 國主 at merely the rank of a 王 or even a 國王.  (See the various biographies of Southern Tang imperial family members at  (vol. 19 of the Spring and Autumn Annals of Ten Kingdoms).)
 * This is a very good point that I previously never considered. I will have to read more about other 國王 to see whether there were exceptions. Still, basically you are only claiming Li Yu as being somewhere between an emperor and a king. Timmyshin (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) You are correct that 國主 cannot directly be translated properly as "emperor."  That, however, is a matter of title, and not per se of substance; traditionally, 天王-title holders (mostly from the Sixteen Kingdoms Era) were treated as emperors even though that title also cannot/should not directly be translated as "emperor."  You're right that "ruler" is probably the right translation for the title, but that doesn't mean that Li Yu was not an emperor.  Bo Yang's 中國帝王皇后親王公主世系錄, for example, noted that he was including 國主 as emperor.  While Bo's two-level lumping (distinction between 帝 and 王 only) may be too inflexible, it's not unsound, I don't think.  Had Southern Tang survived one or more generations further, I think there would be little doubt that Song would have had to approve of Li Yu's being posthumously referred to as 皇帝 (at least internally in Southern Tang) posthumously.
 * I don't think postulating what might have happened is a good approach in discussing what already transpired in history. Again, basically we are placing Li Yu as being somewhere between an emperor and a king. I will definitely bear that in mind if I edit Li Yu's page. Timmyshin (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) And by that same token, then, if you believe that because a direct translation is not "emperor" (which I agree with), then it should be noted that for either of the Zhous to be "Queen," she would have to be 王后 — not 國后.  國后 was a sui generis title that was never used before or after.
 * Well, I really don't know how to respond to that. Again, I've pointed out English literature using either translation; the latest and more historical book (quite intentionally) chose "queen". Timmyshin (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) An emperor could still be the subject of another; Shi Jingtang was the subject of Liao, for example.
 * I don't think this is relevant to this case at all, Shi Jingtang was unequivocally a 皇帝, a title that the Khitans were happy to honor (冬十月戊寅，契丹使中書令韓頻來奉冊曰英武明義皇帝). Li Yu was not, and even had problems like 煜襲位，因登樓，建金雞以肆赦. 太祖聞之怒，問進奏使陸昭符，昭符素辨給，是日對曰：「此非金雞，乃怪鳥耳. 」太祖大笑，因不問.. Timmyshin (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I do believe this is not a clean translation issue and that no translation is completely satisfactory, but it is more correct to treat Li Yu as an emperor (which seems to be a fairly uncontroversial treatment) and therefore, the Zhous as empresses. Your opinion may differ, and does differ. Perhaps, hopefully, someone else will jump in with his/her opinion? --Nlu (talk) 03:10, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Certainly, if you would like to pursue this please create a move discussion page so that we can copy and paste what we wrote here for others to judge. Timmyshin (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Created it at Talk:Queen Zhou the Elder. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 15:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Ways to improve Gu Xiong
Hi, I'm Versace1608. Timmyshin, thanks for creating Gu Xiong!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. This article needs citations to reliable third party source

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse. versace1608 (talk) 01:46, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Liu Fen/Bin
Do you have some thoughts about what is the proper pronunciation? I had assumed that it's "Fen," but obviously his name's character could be pronounced both ways. Do you have insights or sources that suggests one way or the other? --Nlu (talk) 20:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no clue; but this translation uses "Liu Bin": http://books.google.com/books?id=bfbcxM9uJm4C&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=snippet&q=%22liu%20bin%22&f=false Timmyshin (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Continuation of discussion about Zhou Ehuang
"Consort" might be a middle ground of sort, although that might end up implying that she's a concubine, which she's not. In any case, we can think about this further for a while. --Nlu (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I share your concern. I think an "ancient Chinese (or East Asian?) women naming conventions" proposal is in need some time in the future. Timmyshin (talk) 01:23, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Li Siyuan
Do you plan to further rewrite/expand Li Siyuan? If so, I think I'm going to not deal with that page any further for now. If not, would you mind if I rewrite the intro section as well? We have substantial stylistic differences, and I am not sure how they would mesh. --Nlu (talk) 19:41, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I do have plans, probably soon. However, you can still rewrite the intro or other parts, this is wikipedia after all. As far as stylistic differences, maybe we can talk about them? Timmyshin (talk) 19:53, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Then my preference is — please complete the expansion when you get a chance. (There are many other articles that I can work on.)  Once you are complete, I can try to then tone up certain parts.  Thanks.  --Nlu (talk) 21:40, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. Timmyshin (talk) 02:05, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

"Foo Dynasty" or "Foo dynasty"?
There's an RFC here. Taekwondo Panda (talk) 08:00, 2 March 2014 (UTC)